Pharmacy School opening in Maine now. Bubble has burst!

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StaviZFingerZ said:
So it's University of New England in Portland and Husson University in Bangor both opening this fall?
Click to expand...
... and College of Notre Dame Maryland, and Regis University.
Members don't see this ad.
 
There are 117 pharmacy schools, 6-8 schools will open for 2010 and set the number to around 125. A few schools have already expressed interest in opening up 2011.

At the current rate there will be 200 PharmD schools by the 2020s. There are currently 200 law schools offering the JD. Things are not looking good for pharmacy. There are too many diploma mill private schools opening up taking the lowest quality applicants and lying to them about being handed easy $100K jobs after they pay their $150K tuition.

Easy come, easy go. The pharmacy $100K salary happened in a single decade, how long will it last?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
possible schools for 2011

Central California - private stand-alone no university affiliation
Samual Merrit (#10 in CA)
St. Joseph College, CT
Roosevelt University, Chicago
Univerity of NC Greensboro

possible schools opening 2010

The University of Maryland Eastern Shores
Drexel
Farleigh Dickinson
D' Youville College
Concordia-Wisconsin-projects a class size of 300.
Presbyterian College-NC
University of South Florida
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine

schools opening 2009

Husson University
New England, University of ME
Notre Dame of Maryland
Regis University

Here are the current schools that are not fully accredited and have not even started pumping out new grads yet.....


Belmont TN -------------------------------Pre-Candidate**
Calilfornia Northstate CA -------------------Pre-Candidate**
Charleston WV---------------------------- Candidate**
Chicago State IL --------------------------Pre-Candidate**
East Tennessee State TN ------------------Candidate**
Findlay OH --------------------------------Candidate**
Harding, University of AR -------------------Pre-Candidate**
Hawaii at Hilo HI ---------------------------Candidate**
Incarnate Word TX ------------------------Candidate**
Lipscomb TN ------------------------------Pre-Candidate**
NEOUCOP OH ------------------------------Candidate**
Pacific U. (OR) OR -------------------------Candidate**
Southern Illinois Edwardsville IL -------------Candidate**
Sullivan *** KY ----------------------------PreCandidate
Texas A&M - Kingsville TX -------------------Candidate**
Thomas Jefferson *** PA------------------- Pre-Candidate**
Touro (CA) CA -----------------------------Candidate**
Touro (NY) NY -----------------------------Pre-Candidate**
Union TN ----------------------------------Pre-Candidate**


Can the pharmacy profession really support all of these junk private schools? There are over 30 schools setting up that haven't even produced their first graduating class. The next 3-6 years are going to be the beginning of the worst, unless $100K jobs start falling from the sky.
 
This is a prime example of few enterprising and profit driven academia-educators profiteering through an utter destruction of once a noble profession. That's all it is.
 
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StaviZFingerZ said:
Myopic as in you're only worried about your job. Myopic as in you're only in your little world without knowing what other areas of the country look like. Myopic as in you have no clue how pharmacy was 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, and where it's headed today. Myopic as in your inability to foresee how your pharmacy career will be affected by irresponsible opening of pharmacy schools and increasing enrollment. Myopic as in you're not worried about other graduates in other part of the country not being able to find their job of choice. You're not worried about Pharmacy ....as long as you got your little job. I work with 1,700 pharmacists and pharm techs and it's not retail. I care about pharmacy.
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So, at first I was naive and didn't know what I was getting myself in to. Then when I showed that I did have a clue, I suddenly was tagged as myopic. At this point, I'm unsure as to what your standpoint is in our little back-and-forth, other than sheer principle.

Not worried about other grads in other parts of the country? You're right, I'm not. Why should I be? If they're getting into pharmacy because they actually want to be a pharmacist (as opposed to wanting to pick up a big fat paycheck every week), they may have to do such horrible, unspeakable things as work retail, or work part-time for a while and actually prove that they deserve a full-time position, but if that's such an unacceptable deal to them, then I'm fresh out of pity. I'm supposed to feel bad because they can't get exactly what they want? If new graduates feel that they deserve whatever job they hand pick for themselves, they're no worse than the people who got into pharmacy because they heard there were huge salaries to be made. Those people can take their sense of entitlement, wrap it up with your brand new PharmD, and shove it up their ass.
 
You showed you have a clue? I don't think so.

You think you're that much better off than other graduates and currently practicing pharmacists that you'll be fine and dandy with a secure job lined up?

The job shortage is going to affect all of us. You're not immune to it. You think you're not going to face this? Once saturation starts to spread to rural area when pharmacy grads with $150,000 debt start to get desperate, you'll be fighting for a job. When are you graduating? 2013? So you got pharmacy figured out?

You're myopic because you fail to see that if it's going to be difficult to find a job for others, it will be hard for you too. Again, it's all about you.
You've never had to tell other pharmacists that his/her position has been eliminated. And once you do, maybe then you'll have some compassion and understand why some of us are concerned. Until then you're naive and myopic.


IrishHammer said:
So, at first I was naive and didn't know what I was getting myself in to. Then when I showed that I did have a clue, I suddenly was tagged as myopic. At this point, I'm unsure as to what your standpoint is in our little back-and-forth, other than sheer principle.

Not worried about other grads in other parts of the country? You're right, I'm not. Why should I be? If they're getting into pharmacy because they actually want to be a pharmacist (as opposed to wanting to pick up a big fat paycheck every week), they may have to do such horrible, unspeakable things as work retail, or work part-time for a while and actually prove that they deserve a full-time position, but if that's such an unacceptable deal to them, then I'm fresh out of pity. I'm supposed to feel bad because they can't get exactly what they want? If new graduates feel that they deserve whatever job they hand pick for themselves, they're no worse than the people who got into pharmacy because they heard there were huge salaries to be made. Those people can take their sense of entitlement, wrap it up with your brand new PharmD, and shove it up their ass.
Click to expand...
 
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StaviZFingerZ said:
You showed you have a clue? I don't think so.

You think you're that much better off than other graduates and currently practicing pharmacists that you'll be fine and dandy with a secure job lined up?

The job shortage is going to affect all of us. You're not immune to it. You think you're not going to face this? Once saturation starts to spread to rural area when pharmacy grads with $150,000 debt start to get desperate, you'll be fighting for a job. When are you graduating? 2013? So you got pharmacy figured out?

You're myopic because you fail to see that if it's going to be difficult to find a job for others, it will be hard for you too. Again, it's all about you.
You've never had to tell other pharmacists that his/her position has been eliminated. And once you do, maybe then you'll have some compassion and understand why some of us are concerned. Until then you're naive and myopic.
Click to expand...

I never said I would be fine and dandy with a secure job lined up. I'm aware that the job market is tough in many areas right now, and will be even tougher in more areas when I graduate. I'd like to find myself in a favorable position, and I'm willing to be flexible to do so, but if I have to actually fight for a job, even if it's just a part-time position, then so be it. I don't know the future of pharmacy. No one does.
 
IrishHammer said:
I never said I would be fine and dandy with a secure job lined up. I'm aware that the job market is tough in many areas right now, and will be even tougher in more areas when I graduate. I'd like to find myself in a favorable position, and I'm willing to be flexible to do so, but if I have to actually fight for a job, even if it's just a part-time position, then so be it. I don't know the future of pharmacy. No one does.
Click to expand...


Ok, this is better.
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
Ok, this is better.
Click to expand...

I should have specified that from the get-go. I probably wouldn't have pissed you off quite so much that way.

To be quite frank, this isn't an issue that I have completely turned a blind eye to. In addition to being accepted to St. John Fisher for pharmacy, I was also accepted at UB to continue my undergrad and pursue a Bachelor's in Chemistry. I asked a few people on this forum via PM if it would have been a better idea to forgo starting pharmacy school and instead get my Bachelors and then apply at UB and other top-ranked schools.

Even though I'm trying to be as optimistic as possible about the field, I'm worried about it as well.
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
This is a prime example of few enterprising and profit driven academia-educators profiteering through an utter destruction of once a noble profession. That's all it is.
Click to expand...


No question. Couple this this the current economy with very little retail growth, hiring freezes, and the impending nationalization of health care and I don't forsee real good days for pharmacy ahead.

I also heard yesterday that the FUL for reimbursement is going to negatively affect the PartD plans, resulting in significant profit losses for pharmacy. A few players have already committed to staff reductions and pay decreases as a result.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
BavarianMWE46 said:
possible schools for 2011

Central California - private stand-alone no university affiliation
Samual Merrit (#10 in CA)
St. Joseph College, CT
Roosevelt University, Chicago
Univerity of NC Greensboro

possible schools opening 2010

The University of Maryland Eastern Shores
Drexel
Farleigh Dickinson
D' Youville College
Concordia-Wisconsin-projects a class size of 300.
Presbyterian College-NC
University of South Florida
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine

schools opening 2009

Husson University
New England, University of ME
Notre Dame of Maryland
Regis University

Here are the current schools that are not fully accredited and have not even started pumping out new grads yet.....


Belmont TN -------------------------------Pre-Candidate**
Calilfornia Northstate CA -------------------Pre-Candidate**
Charleston WV---------------------------- Candidate**
Chicago State IL --------------------------Pre-Candidate**
East Tennessee State TN ------------------Candidate**
Findlay OH --------------------------------Candidate**
Harding, University of AR -------------------Pre-Candidate**
Hawaii at Hilo HI ---------------------------Candidate**
Incarnate Word TX ------------------------Candidate**
Lipscomb TN ------------------------------Pre-Candidate**
NEOUCOP OH ------------------------------Candidate**
Pacific U. (OR) OR -------------------------Candidate**
Southern Illinois Edwardsville IL -------------Candidate**
Sullivan *** KY ----------------------------PreCandidate
Texas A&M - Kingsville TX -------------------Candidate**
Thomas Jefferson *** PA------------------- Pre-Candidate**
Touro (CA) CA -----------------------------Candidate**
Touro (NY) NY -----------------------------Pre-Candidate**
Union TN ----------------------------------Pre-Candidate**


Can the pharmacy profession really support all of these junk private schools? There are over 30 schools setting up that haven't even produced their first graduating class. The next 3-6 years are going to be the beginning of the worst, unless $100K jobs start falling from the sky.
Click to expand...


Another one to add to possible schools opening:

In NYC - the CUNY system (possibly housed at Queens College) :(
 
add university of texas el paso to the list. and it gows....
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
UAMS Northwest should be enrolling students this fall unless the plans were delayed. The goal was to increase the enrollment by 62%.
Click to expand...

It's only for 3rd and 4th year students AFAIK and I doubt we'll see an increase of 62% enrollment in Little Rock from this - I'd be shocked
 
Praziquantel86 said:
Is that 10 now in Texas?
Click to expand...

Haven't heard anything about UT-El Paso opening up a pharm school but right now there's only 6.

UNT and University of Dallas have cancelled/postponed indefinitely their plans to open a pharmacy school in Texas due to the economic downturn (UNT instead is trying to open up a law school).

^^ Hopefully they keep it at 6 as 2 schools have not even graduate their first class yet so even more schools is going to saturate the area even more.
 
I think it's too soon to tell that how many pharmacy schools are enough. How do guys think about healthcare reform?
If MTM and other more non-traditional pharmacy services become standardized or legalized, the demand could be doubled.


If this is the case, then 130 pharm schools are not enough. From the lecture notes last year, it said if patient-oriented services increases, the demand could be doubled or tripled. If not, then we are doomed. I wish I had crystal ball to see the future.
 
RNtoPharmD said:
I think it’s too soon to tell that how many pharmacy schools are enough. How do guys think about healthcare reform?
If MTM and other more non-traditional pharmacy services become standardized or legalized, the demand could be doubled.


If this is the case, then 130 pharm schools are not enough. From the lecture notes last year, it said if patient-oriented services increases, the demand could be doubled or tripled. If not, then we are doomed. I wish I had crystal ball to see the future.
Click to expand...

We want good pharmacists; we don't want a bunch of incompetent ones. The schools that are opening just want your money. They don't want to make good pharmacists.
 
PharmDstudent said:
They're hiring out in Baton Rouge... but that's only if you're willing to put up with the most horrendous traffic in the state. ;)
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I'm from Los Angeles... with all due respect, you don't know what "horrendous traffic" is until you've driven in LA.
 
So I'm going to make some assumptions here...

I'm going to assume APhA is the main lobbying organization for pharmacist.

And if they are then what is their position on school openings? Should the number of school openings be limited? Like say 50 over the next 10 years? What if an unplanned unanticipated 150 schools opened in 10 years?

Could or should there be anything done about that and which body in pharmacy should take care of that?
 
BustyPharmD said:
So I'm going to make some assumptions here...

I'm going to assume APhA is the main lobbying organization for pharmacist.

And if they are then what is their position on school openings? Should the number of school openings be limited? Like say 50 over the next 10 years? What if an unplanned unanticipated 150 schools opened in 10 years?

Could or should there be anything done about that and which body in pharmacy should take care of that?
Click to expand...

That won't work. As long as the requirements for PharmD curriculum are met, no one can deny opening of a school. Just look at JD programs. Even with strong lobbying and influence of Law profession along with a difficult BAR examiniation, more law schools are opening.

The only way we can limit and control the number of practicing pharmacists is by making residency a requirement to practice pharmacy. Then limit the number of residencies in the US.
 
BustyPharmD said:
So I'm going to make some assumptions here... I'm going to assume APhA is the main lobbying organization for pharmacist. And if they are then what is their position on school openings?
Click to expand...

I think they care more about the upcoming healthcare reform than the new pharm schools. The utilization of pharmacy services influenced by the reform will impact the future demand/supply curve as much as new schools do. I wish I can foresee what will happen.
 
MountainPharmD said:
Dallas has to be close.
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I've commuted in LA. I've commuted in Dallas. Dallas is not even close dood. LA traffic congestion is wide spread. 91 and I-5. 405 everywhere. 605 and I-5 area. I-10 from Covina all the to Santa Monica..especially where it crosses 60, I-5, and 101.. then 710 and I-5. Oh..then 110 and 210?

Dood..go back to Kansas.
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
I've commuted in LA. I've commuted in Dallas. Dallas is not even close dood. LA traffic congestion is wide spread. 91 and I-5. 405 everywhere. 605 and I-5 area. I-10 from Covina all the to Santa Monica..especially where it crosses 60, I-5, and 101.. then 710 and I-5. Oh..then 110 and 210?

Dood..go back to Kansas.
Click to expand...

Don't forget 24 lane highways backed up in both directions (el toro Y)
 
BustyPharmD said:
So I'm going to make some assumptions here...

I'm going to assume APhA is the main lobbying organization for pharmacist.

And if they are then what is their position on school openings? Should the number of school openings be limited? Like say 50 over the next 10 years? What if an unplanned unanticipated 150 schools opened in 10 years?

Could or should there be anything done about that and which body in pharmacy should take care of that?
Click to expand...

APhA stopped caring about pharmacists a long time ago, just like ASHP. Rather than focus on legitimate issues (like chains systematically destroying the profession or Northeastern Southern California College of Pharmacy and Allied Health Professions), they spend their time whining about how we're misrepresented on Nurse Jackie.

I agree with Z, the only legal way to limit new schools is to mandate a residency and then limit the number of residency spots. ACPE is way too weak to do this, however.
 
glory4england said:
Haven't heard anything about UT-El Paso opening up a pharm school but right now there's only 6.

UNT and University of Dallas have cancelled/postponed indefinitely their plans to open a pharmacy school in Texas due to the economic downturn (UNT instead is trying to open up a law school).

^^ Hopefully they keep it at 6 as 2 schools have not even graduate their first class yet so even more schools is going to saturate the area even more.
Click to expand...

Thank God, we do NOT need anymore schools in Texas, the existing schools are already expanding their classes more than they should. But all they can see is $$$$ tuition checks rolling in.
 
Jbuprepharm said:
Thank God, we do NOT need anymore schools in Texas, the existing schools are already expanding their classes more than they should. But all they can see is $$$$ tuition checks rolling in.
Click to expand...


I may be mistaken. Perhaps it's the UTEP cooperative pharmacy program where they do pre req in EP then enter P1 in UT Austin.
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
I may be mistaken. Perhaps it's the UTEP cooperative pharmacy program where they do pre req in EP then enter P1 in UT Austin.
Click to expand...

I believe UTPA already has a program like this. I don't know about UTEP though, it seems it wouldn't be that bad of an idea, as an effort to get more pharmacists to the El Paso area
 
Praziquantel86 said:
I agree with Z, the only legal way to limit new schools is to mandate a residency and then limit the number of residency spots. ACPE is way too weak to do this, however.
Click to expand...

Limiting the number of residency spots will mean not everyone is going to get to graduate because there are not enough residency spots available. If ACPE made residencies manditory today, what percent of pharm students won't graduate? 50%

How is this going to prevent schools from decreasing admissions or opening new schools. I don't think it would help or am I missing something? Help me out here.
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
That won't work. As long as the requirements for PharmD curriculum are met, no one can deny opening of a school. Just look at JD programs. Even with strong lobbying and influence of Law profession along with a difficult BAR examiniation, more law schools are opening.

The only way we can limit and control the number of practicing pharmacists is by making residency a requirement to practice pharmacy. Then limit the number of residencies in the US.
Click to expand...

What about with dental programs? You aren't required to do a residency to get a job, yet there is a pretty small amount of schools that appears to be controlled.
 
Right now, there is only enough residencies for less than 15% of the graduating class.
 
Eviscerate said:
What about with dental programs? You aren't required to do a residency to get a job, yet there is a pretty small amount of schools that appears to be controlled.
Click to expand...


Good point. Like Vet Schools. But It seems like opening a dental school would be a huge huge investment and a large undertaking compared to a weekend Law School or a pharmacy school.
 
BustyPharmD said:
Limiting the number of residency spots will mean not everyone is going to get to graduate because there are not enough residency spots available. If ACPE made residencies manditory today, what percent of pharm students won't graduate? 50%

How is this going to prevent schools from decreasing admissions or opening new schools. I don't think it would help or am I missing something? Help me out here.
Click to expand...

They would still graduate with a PharmD, but be ineligible for licensure. This would not be unique to pharmacy by any means - there are more medical graduates each year than there are residency spots (particularly for osteopathic schools). Likewise with dental school in New York State (a residency is required here to practice).

Granted, residency slots would have to increase before this could ever happen. It'll most likely never happen, but one can always hope.
 
BustyPharmD said:
Limiting the number of residency spots will mean not everyone is going to get to graduate because there are not enough residency spots available. If ACPE made residencies manditory today, what percent of pharm students won't graduate? 50%

How is this going to prevent schools from decreasing admissions or opening new schools. I don't think it would help or am I missing something? Help me out here.
Click to expand...


What's residency spots got to do with graduation?
 
Extreme pharmacy shortage = some enterprising nurses lobby for "dispensing" rights.
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
I may be mistaken. Perhaps it's the UTEP cooperative pharmacy program where they do pre req in EP then enter P1 in UT Austin.
Click to expand...

*nod* 30 spots are reserved each year in UT-Austin for students from the El-Paso area (out of 120 spots, so about 25%). The students apply during their high school years and they do their rotations during their 4th year in El-Paso and must spend a minimum of 2 years working in the area afterward. ^^
 
confettiflyer said:
Extreme pharmacy shortage = some enterprising nurses lobby for "dispensing" rights.
Click to expand...

That's a very good possibility. There's nothing that would stop this except a pharmacy lobby. Do you think APhA would stand up to the nurses lobby if they tried to do something like that?

hmm...
 
jachen84 said:
massive amounts of people die, chaos ensues.

whats new my friend?
Click to expand...

Haha not much, just enticing more chaos through paranoid shortage talk. Back in Filthadelphia next week...gonna start training for a marathon soon.
 
BustyPharmD said:
That's a very good possibility. There's nothing that would stop this except a pharmacy lobby. Do you think APhA would stand up to the nurses lobby if they tried to do something like that?

hmm...
Click to expand...

pharmacy lobby? :::giggles like a little girl:::

I don't think it'll ever get to that...I used to be cynical, arguing that a pharmacy surplus is imminent and that wages were going down (albeit not at the rate some "sky is falling" students are thinking) and that the only way to secure the profession was through the constraint of supply.

VanctheTank sorta opened my eyes a bit and now I'm thinking the surplus might actually be good in the end in terms of job security. I still think wages will drop 5-10% over the interim 5-7 years (or stagnant against inflation, which ends up being a drop in real wages), but the real game changer is going to be the augmenting of demand.
 
confettiflyer said:
Haha not much, just enticing more chaos through paranoid shortage talk. Back in Filthadelphia next week...gonna start training for a marathon soon.
Click to expand...

sweet. there's no way i can ever run a marathon although i did my fair share of 5k runs when i was in hs. Did you hear over the weekend some Phillies fans fought outside the stadium after they had lost and resulted in one person dying? Supposedly that stadium is the only one in the major leagues that houses its own jail (for the fans) :eek:

at first i had no idea what your avatar was but now i just woke up turned on the tv and saw this federal health inspector guy lol
 
jachen84 said:
sweet. there's no way i can ever run a marathon although i did my fair share of 5k runs when i was in hs. Did you hear over the weekend some Phillies fans fought outside the stadium after they had lost and resulted in one person dying? Supposedly that stadium is the only one in the major leagues that houses its own jail (for the fans) :eek:

at first i had no idea what your avatar was but now i just woke up turned on the tv and saw this federal health inspector guy lol
Click to expand...

Oh man, Did you hear about the time someone hung a dead goat from the Harry Caray statue at Wrigley Field a few months ago. lol
 
jachen84 said:
sweet. there's no way i can ever run a marathon although i did my fair share of 5k runs when i was in hs. Did you hear over the weekend some Phillies fans fought outside the stadium after they had lost and resulted in one person dying? Supposedly that stadium is the only one in the major leagues that houses its own jail (for the fans) :eek:

at first i had no idea what your avatar was but now i just woke up turned on the tv and saw this federal health inspector guy lol
Click to expand...

that commercial is so annoying it cracks me up, hahah. yeah the guy outside the bar (attached to the stadium) died, apparently the guy doing the beating has a history of anger/assault.

kind of strange, it's a pretty mellow/controlled crowd during the week, supposedly it becomes a drunken frat party friday and saturday nights. i mean, it's filthadelphia...not surprised, this is why i would never go to eagles games.
 
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