Plans for those who did not get in this round-Clinical Psychology

[tara15]

Hello,

I am wondering what the plans are for those of you who did not get in to programs this round of applying to PhDs in clinical psychology. While I did go through a phase of hopelessness, I do feel motivated to do things that will better my chances of getting in the next round. I wanted to see what others in my situation are planning on doing during their "year off" and seek advice on I should do..Here are my options:

1. A PhD program that is not funded. It is a good school with a lot of opportunities. Just really expensive..

2. A master's program that is research intensive and also has a doctoral program that I can apply to..If I get in after completing my masters, I'll be considered a 3rd year student..No guarantee, however, that I will get in although the doc program usually takes somewhere between 1-2 students from the master's program.

3. Research for another year

Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Ollie123]

It would be helpful if you shared more detail regarding your credentials and where you applied, so people can pick out what the potential issues with your application might be. Our advice will be dramatically different if you finished an undergrad with a 3.1 GPA, vs. a 4.0 GPA but no research experience and it also depends on what you want to do and what kind of school you want to attend.

 

[tara15]

Of course!

I have a 3.895 gpa, 1.5 years of research experience, a year of case management experience and experiences working with various clinical populations (adhd, autism, down syndrome), 1 poster presentation and currently working on a paper. I've applied to 8 schools this year (Wayne state, eastern michigan, american university, loma linda, uni of Cincinnati, Georgia State, South Florida, Northwestern Feinberg). I plan on specializing in pediatric neuropsychology. I don't really have a specific "kind of school" in mind as long as it has a strong neuropsych program and neuropsych faculty whose research interests fit mine.

 

[Ollie123]

Sounds like you are off to a good start. 1.5 years of research experience is pretty light for some of those programs though, especially if we're talking part-time (vs. a full-time coordinator job). Its also a relatively conservative number of schools to apply to...most people should for the 10-15 range. Another consideration is to look at the faculty you are applying to work with. Unless they hired recently, I know at least one of the schools on your list doesn't have a pediatric neuropsychologist on core faculty. Since peds and adult neuro tend to run in somewhat different circles (from my understanding) if you mentioned peds in your materials there is a strong chance you weren't even considered. By "kind of school" I meant research vs. clinically focused since this will make a difference in what they are looking for.

From what you've shared so far, I'd probably reapply next year after getting more research experience and re-think how you approach the application process. Whether to take the unfunded program depends on your financial situation, cost of living in the area where it is, whether there is any possibility of obtaining funding during your time there, etc.

Is the mater's program funded? Some are and if that one is it might be a good option. If it isn't, I'm not sure I'd recommend it. They certainly can improve a CV, but I think a good RA job can do so just as well for someone with your GPA. We tend to recommend them more often for folks with low GPAs who need to demonstrate they can handle grad-level coursework.

 

[tara15]

Thank you for your insight!

The master's program is not funded. However, they have 2 GA positions that provide funding+teaching and research experience. I have not received one but am "next in line" for receiving a position. I guess the only reason I am strongly considering the master's program is because 1. There is a neuropsychologist whose research I am very interested in who is willing to have me join her lab and 2. If I get into their doc program, all my course credits will transfer and I won't have to repeat anything. I've heard from many that master programs are usually reserved for those who have low GPAs and/or little research experience. However, I feel like in my situation, going to a master's program might help me in other ways as well..That is not to say a research assistant position won't help. I am sure it will..I am just trying to evaluate which route would give me a better chance of getting in..

 

[tara15]

Also, I am interested in schools that emphasize both research and clinical equally...if I had to choose between the two, I would choose a program that is more research focused

 

[deleted656923]

Honestly, I'm too burned-out and demoralized from this entire process to even think of doing any of those things mentioned in the first post. I've just been working at my dead-end, part-time retail job and sitting in front of my computer as time slips away. As far as a "Plan B" goes, it's been difficult to continue applying and getting rejected from paid Psychology Research positions while fighting through this deep depression.

 

[tara15]

I feel ya..It is easy to feel demoralized after putting so much effort into your application and expecting good things to come out of it. Unfortunately, getting a paid RA position isn't always easy, especially if you aren't willing to move :/ Just know a lot of us are in the same boat. Most people do not get in their first round of applying but that shouldn't be the end of it if this is what you want. I've found it helpful to ask interviewers and research mentor(s) for feedback and will be working on those my next round of applying..

 

[qualpsych]

Thanks for starting this thread. My attempts to get feedback from my interviewers were rejected/ignored, so I'm just doing whatever I feel I can and whatever my current faculty advisor suggests. Here's the outline of my current stats and my plans before next round of applications. If anyone has suggestions, I'm open to feedback! Hopefully my plans might help you, too.

Undergrad (non-psych): 3.86 / MA in Psych: 4.00
GRE Quant: 64%, Verbal 93%, AW 50% (4) - took a really expensive Kaplan course twice just to improve my abysmally low practice Quant scores. This time I'll be using Magoosh to try to get it above 75th percentile. Not too concerned with writing section because I think my statement of purpose/academic writing samples speak louder.
Research Experience: Completed a master's research thesis, with 4 local/state/regional poster presentations. I will get to add national one to my CV for this round of apps. My study was qualitative, so now I am trying to get quantitative experience in a research lab with similar interests to mine, which is very specific and has not been an easy task (seeking volunteer opportunities currently b/c I felt they are more attainable - have asked psychiatric hospitals, faculty members I know from my master's program, etc.). If not, will try to do a study independently although I am no longer a student so that won't be easy either.
Publications: waiting to hear back from an APA journal on manuscript on which I am the first of 2 authors, if rejected will try to get it published elsewhere.
Clinical experience: I'm under the impression no one cares about this. I had 2 years counseling experience when I applied, recently got another job in counseling field, which I'm sure no one will care about this time either, but it will help pay for these apps I guess.

I definitely went through a demoralized phase after getting so few interviews and getting rejected. I am still disappointed because I feel like my life is just on hold. It's easier said than done to dust yourself off and try again, but I'm going to apply 1 more time. I'm trying not to take it too personally anymore because when you have so many great applicants, it's kind of a crapshoot.

This round, I applied to 11 schools for PhD in Clinical Psych. I plan on applying to Counseling Psych PhD programs as well, and will consider non-fully funded ones but am not interested in a PsyD.. I'm also considering some backups at the master's level that would license me to practice and at least achieve part of my goal, although I hate the idea of getting a second master's... I want to do research and practice, but I also want to think of other paths to get where I want to be in case I don't get accepted. Good luck everybody and hang in there

 

[starvingstatic]

...

 

[tara15]

Thanks for starting this thread. My attempts to get feedback from my interviewers were rejected/ignored, so I'm just doing whatever I feel I can and whatever my current faculty advisor suggests. Here's the outline of my current stats and my plans before next round of applications. If anyone has suggestions, I'm open to feedback! Hopefully my plans might help you, too.

Undergrad (non-psych): 3.86 / MA in Psych: 4.00
GRE Quant: 64%, Verbal 93%, AW 50% (4) - took a really expensive Kaplan course twice just to improve my abysmally low practice Quant scores. This time I'll be using Magoosh to try to get it above 75th percentile. Not too concerned with writing section because I think my statement of purpose/academic writing samples speak louder.
Research Experience: Completed a master's research thesis, with 4 local/state/regional poster presentations. I will get to add national one to my CV for this round of apps. My study was qualitative, so now I am trying to get quantitative experience in a research lab with similar interests to mine, which is very specific and has not been an easy task (seeking volunteer opportunities currently b/c I felt they are more attainable - have asked psychiatric hospitals, faculty members I know from my master's program, etc.). If not, will try to do a study independently although I am no longer a student so that won't be easy either.
Publications: waiting to hear back from an APA journal on manuscript on which I am the first of 2 authors, if rejected will try to get it published elsewhere.
Clinical experience: I'm under the impression no one cares about this. I had 2 years counseling experience when I applied, recently got another job in counseling field, which I'm sure no one will care about this time either, but it will help pay for these apps I guess.

I definitely went through a demoralized phase after getting so few interviews and getting rejected. I am still disappointed because I feel like my life is just on hold. It's easier said than done to dust yourself off and try again, but I'm going to apply 1 more time. I'm trying not to take it too personally anymore because when you have so many great applicants, it's kind of a crapshoot.

This round, I applied to 11 schools for PhD in Clinical Psych. I plan on applying to Counseling Psych PhD programs as well, and will consider non-fully funded ones but am not interested in a PsyD.. I'm also considering some backups at the master's level that would license me to practice and at least achieve part of my goal, although I hate the idea of getting a second master's... I want to do research and practice, but I also want to think of other paths to get where I want to be in case I don't get accepted. Good luck everybody and hang in there

Wow you really are on the right track. I'm surprised you didn't get in this year and would be even more surprised if you don't get in next round. This whole process really confuses me. I've met PhD students who did not have as much experience as you do when they applied and they still got in. I think you're definitely really close though!

May I ask where you completed your master's degree and if it was easy to balance course work with research?

 

[bcliff]

I'd recommend looking into MPH programs. MPH prepares for a specific profession (epidemiologist, biostatistician, etc.) and MPHs can earn a substantial income (~50-80k maybe? someone please fact check me), and the option to pursue a doctoral degree in public health is still available to you if you're interested in pursuing a faculty position with a university or medical school. Completing a thesis in an MPH program will improve your application for clinical psych programs, and an MPH is something that will always be part of your title (i.e. Dr. XYZ, PhD, MPH) as opposed to most other masters degrees, which aren't usually part of someone's title once they earn a doctoral degree.

Personally, if I were thinking about attending a masters program, I would be looking into MSW and MPH programs -- Or (more specifically) Tulane's joint MSW/MPH program, which would allow me pursue licensure (LCSW) and receive training in stats & methods through my MPH coursework. Another option is the Institute for Health Metrics & Evaluation (IHME) in Seattle, which offers a 3 year fellowship that offers $40k+ stipend annually and free tuition to earn an MPH at UW while working with the IHME as a researcher - It's highly competitive, but has minimal prereqs and seems like an excellent opportunity.

 

[tara15]

I'd recommend looking into MPH programs. MPH prepares for a specific profession (epidemiologist, biostatistician, etc.) and MPHs can earn a substantial income (~50-80k maybe? someone please fact check me), and the option to pursue a doctoral degree in public health is still available to you if you're interested in pursuing a faculty position with a university or medical school.

Personally, if I were thinking about attending a masters program, I would really only be considering MSW and MPH programs -- Or (more specifically) Tulane's joint MSW/MPH program, which would allow me pursue licensure (LCSW) and receive training in stats & methods through my MPH coursework. Another option is the Institute for Health Metrics & Evaluation (IHME) in Seattle, which is a 3 year fellowship that offers $40k+ stipend annually and free tuition to earn an MPH at UW while working with the IHME as a researcher - It's highly competitive, but has minimal prereqs and seems like an excellent opportunity.

You mean for those who plan to start a new career path? Do these programs provide research opportunities in psychology?

 

[bcliff]

There was a recent thread about MPH & clinical psychology, and I think the consensus is that there is a potential for a significant amount of overlap between psychological research and public health research. I think it will help your application and will also provide a good backup if you don't get into a clinical program when you reapply.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Thanks for starting this thread. My attempts to get feedback from my interviewers were rejected/ignored, so I'm just doing whatever I feel I can and whatever my current faculty advisor suggests. Here's the outline of my current stats and my plans before next round of applications. If anyone has suggestions, I'm open to feedback! Hopefully my plans might help you, too.

Undergrad (non-psych): 3.86 / MA in Psych: 4.00
GRE Quant: 64%, Verbal 93%, AW 50% (4) - took a really expensive Kaplan course twice just to improve my abysmally low practice Quant scores. This time I'll be using Magoosh to try to get it above 75th percentile. Not too concerned with writing section because I think my statement of purpose/academic writing samples speak louder.
Research Experience: Completed a master's research thesis, with 4 local/state/regional poster presentations. I will get to add national one to my CV for this round of apps. My study was qualitative, so now I am trying to get quantitative experience in a research lab with similar interests to mine, which is very specific and has not been an easy task (seeking volunteer opportunities currently b/c I felt they are more attainable - have asked psychiatric hospitals, faculty members I know from my master's program, etc.). If not, will try to do a study independently although I am no longer a student so that won't be easy either.
Publications: waiting to hear back from an APA journal on manuscript on which I am the first of 2 authors, if rejected will try to get it published elsewhere.
Clinical experience: I'm under the impression no one cares about this. I had 2 years counseling experience when I applied, recently got another job in counseling field, which I'm sure no one will care about this time either, but it will help pay for these apps I guess.

I definitely went through a demoralized phase after getting so few interviews and getting rejected. I am still disappointed because I feel like my life is just on hold. It's easier said than done to dust yourself off and try again, but I'm going to apply 1 more time. I'm trying not to take it too personally anymore because when you have so many great applicants, it's kind of a crapshoot.

This round, I applied to 11 schools for PhD in Clinical Psych. I plan on applying to Counseling Psych PhD programs as well, and will consider non-fully funded ones but am not interested in a PsyD.. I'm also considering some backups at the master's level that would license me to practice and at least achieve part of my goal, although I hate the idea of getting a second master's... I want to do research and practice, but I also want to think of other paths to get where I want to be in case I don't get accepted. Good luck everybody and hang in there

i don't know if this was the case for you but sometimes clinical experience can be a drawback because psychologists tend to react strongly to any hint of amateur psychotherapy. Also, there are buzzwords and attitudes that agency people use all day long that can be a huge negative and a pre-doc student usually isn't even aware of it.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I wanted to add that when communicating about clinical experiences prior to the doctoral program it is important to recognize the limitations of that experience and a desire to attain more training and education to address those limitations. "At X clinic where I worked sometimes I felt like the people often needed more help or had significant psychological issues that weren't always being addressed and I eagerly anticipate learning more about how to meet those needs."

 

[qualpsych]

Untrue. I can easily see a situation in which two otherwise-equally-matched applicants would be ranked according to clinical experience(s). Unless, maybe, it's a really hardcore clinical science program that doesn't want you ever seeing patients, but those are few and far between even still today. Of course, it depends what you're including in the definitions of the words "clinical" and "counseling" experience. For instance, administering SCIDs > many of the more common group-home/adult-with-autism-PCA -esque experiences non-grad students tend to find in the interim.

And, to an extent you're on the right track--there is a sort of cap on how much clinical experience matters such that years and years of research experience would carry much more weight than an equal number of years of clinical experience. Clinical experience is desired because it means you've had exposure to patients/clients and that exposure and experience is very valuable; however, programs also want you to still be green enough to be malleable and trainable to their standards.

Thank you - that's a much better reframing of it. So it's an asset, as long as you also have solid research experience too. Similarly, maybe my qualitative research experience will be seen as as asset, but only if I gain solid quantitative experience I was lacking this time.

i don't know if this was the case for you but sometimes clinical experience can be a drawback because psychologists tend to react strongly to any hint of amateur psychotherapy. Also, there are buzzwords and attitudes that agency people use all day long that can be a huge negative and a pre-doc student usually isn't even aware of it.

I wanted to add that when communicating about clinical experiences prior to the doctoral program it is important to recognize the limitations of that experience and a desire to attain more training and education to address those limitations. "At X clinic where I worked sometimes I felt like the people often needed more help or had significant psychological issues that weren't always being addressed and I eagerly anticipate learning more about how to meet those needs."

My "clinical" experiences this round were on a volunteer basis, i.e. rape crisis counseling, so while I received training, it wasn't in psychotherapy...I viewed my experience as evidence I have been exposed to/proven myself capable of being with people in crisis, and tried to frame it as such in my interviews (but not sure if I accomplished that or if that was the best way to go about it). Thank you for the point about noting an ability to recognize areas for growth and a desire to build upon prior experiences, I'll remember that.

 

[starvingstatic]

...

 

[bcliff]

I had a "clinical & applied experience" section on my CV, where I lumped volunteer and clinical experiences together. I agree that I downplayed my clinical testing experience and upped my research psychometry experience.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Assuming the place was legit, it sounds like that's more of a volunteer experience than a clinical experience, if that makes sense. Definitely frame it in the manner smalltownpsych suggested--as a primer that gave you a small taste of something you'd like to do more of.

Eh? This sounds like fine clinical experience for a PhD applicant, and I'd definitely label it as such on your CV. Crisis lines are one of the most common clinical experience routes for undergrads--there are very few ways that anyone not in graduate program can get clinical experience, frankly.

 

[starvingstatic]

...

 

[abiturient]

e. Its also a relatively conservative number of schools to apply to...most people should for the 10-15 range. Another consideration is to look at the faculty you are applying to work with. Unless they hired recently, I know at least one of the schools on your list doesn't have a pediatric neuropsychologist on core faculty. Since peds and adult neuro tend to run in somewhat different circles (from my understanding) if you mentioned peds in your materials there is a strong chance you weren't even considered.

I agree with Ollie123 here. If you mention both neuro and pediatric in your application, you need to be sure you are applying to work with someone who does both. While your focus on pediatric neuropsychology makes sense to me, pediatric and neuro are typically different tracks, so you need to be careful in how you phrase your statement of purpose. Also I would consider applying to more programs. This "fit" that the schools are looking for is often so unclear to applicants and we have no way of predicting what it actually is for that particular faculty, that you need as many chances as you can get. I applied to 14 programs and received 1 offer (which I accepted). The funny thing is that initially, I would evaluate that program as one of the lesser "fits" with my interests. However, POI apparently thought differently.

 

[qualpsych]

May I ask where you completed your master's degree and if it was easy to balance course work with research?

I completed my thesis during semesters I was not taking other classes since I was working full time, but started my lit review much earlier in my studies. Other programs are different I'm sure...this was done as independent study courses rather than working in an existing lab in a psych dept., the program I attended is probably more clinically-focused than research-focused.

 

[Chalupacabra]

I plan on specializing in pediatric neuropsychology.

You may also want to investigate school psych programs that have faculty with neuropsych interests and coursework, if you haven't already. There aren't a ton of them, but off the top of my head Syracuse, Texas A&M, Ball State, University of Rhode Island and (to a lesser extent) Temple University all have one or more faculty members with a focus on peds neuro and a fair amount of available coursework/practica opportunities - Ball State has their own neuropsych lab where students can receive supervision from board certified NPs, Syracuse has faculty who also work/teach at the local psychiatric hospital and as a result have good connections there, etc. There are going to be some differences in the core curriculum from a clinical program, obviously, and you'd have to complete at least a 600 hr externship in a school setting, but this could also make you more marketable and give you more options in the long run as well. Clearly if you have absolutely no interest in working in a school setting this wouldn't be for you, but it may be worth looking in to.

 

[CKAW]

Still waiting to hear back from one more school. If I don't get in, I'm not applying again. Frankly, the admissions process and talking to current grad students soured me on clinical programs altogether -- nobody seemed happy in any of the programs, everyone appeared to have lost sight of why they signed up in the first place, and all POIs seemed generally disinterested and disengaged. Maybe I just had bad luck with the programs I applied to, but I'll probably just get an MSW and avoid academia altogether. TBH even my experience with volunteer research has been hit or miss; I'd rather avoid academia from here on out if possible.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Still waiting to hear back from one more school. If I don't get in, I'm not applying again. Frankly, the admissions process and talking to current grad students soured me on clinical programs altogether -- nobody seemed happy in any of the programs, everyone appeared to have lost sight of why they signed up in the first place, and all POIs seemed generally disinterested and disengaged. Maybe I just had bad luck with the programs I applied to, but I'll probably just get an MSW and avoid academia altogether. TBH even my experience with volunteer research has been hit or miss; I'd rather avoid academia from here on out if possible.

I think this points to a big problem with our profession and it is part of what has led to the growth of questionable professional schools and the proliferation and encroachment of mid-levels and some of the negative problems associated with these issues. Becoming a clinical psychologist should not be more difficult than becoming a medical doctor, but the hoop to get into a funded PhD program is much harder to navigate than it is to get into medical school. Then when you are finished with all of the hoops, then you are faced with zero wage growth over the past 20 years. I put a lot of the blame on the pure academics who created this mess and I would love to teach but would never see myself as an academic at a university. I doubt that they would let me into their little club anyway.

 

[WisNeuro]

Becoming a clinical psychologist should not be more difficult than becoming a medical doctor, but the hoop to get into a funded PhD program is much harder to navigate than it is to get into medical school. Then when you are finished with all of the hoops, then you are faced with zero wage growth over the past 20 years. I put a lot of the blame on the pure academics who created this mess and I would love to teach but would never see myself as an academic at a university. I doubt that they would let me into their little club anyway.

First, I don't think becoming a clinical psychologist is harder than becoming a doctor. There are WAY MORE checks and balances in terms of testing in the MD world. As others have said, merely wanting a doctorate shouldn't qualify you for that doctorate. Also, how exactly have academics created this mess?

 

[bcliff]

First, I don't think becoming a clinical psychologist is harder than becoming a doctor. There are WAY MORE checks and balances in terms of testing in the MD world. As others have said, merely wanting a doctorate shouldn't qualify you for that doctorate. Also, how exactly have academics created this mess?

Yea, I agree - There's no MCAT, there are no hard and fast prereqs for clinical psych training, and pretty much anyone can apply (qualified or not). By the time applicants for medical school get to the application stage, they've at least passed their premed coursework and at least taken the MCAT. I'm a proponent of a pre-psych curriculum to cut down the total number of applicants, and to standardize preparation for clinical psych applicants. I also think clinical psych programs should either universally accept or toss out the psych GRE - I took it for 1 program I was interested in (not the program I'll be attending in the fall), and it ended up costing ~$200.

Like I said - If I had not gotten into a clinical psych program, I'd be looking into MSW and MPH programs (or license eligible clinical psych MA programs) because they will provide you with experience to fill your CV, and they will prepare you for alternate professions in case clinical psych still doesn't pan out. The job I've had for the last few years with a BS is the same job that colleagues of mine have had with masters degrees in psychology.

 

[smalltownpsych]

First, I don't think becoming a clinical psychologist is harder than becoming a doctor. There are WAY MORE checks and balances in terms of testing in the MD world. As others have said, merely wanting a doctorate shouldn't qualify you for that doctorate. Also, how exactly have academics created this mess?

I was just referring to the comparison of getting into medical school compared to a funded PhD program. Not so much the other tests of competency along the way. We should probably have some of those, too.
I don't know how the academics created this mess other than to say that they were in charge of the profession for years until a two-tiered model of training was developed. Which hasn't been implemented well by all accounts. When I talk to my medical colleagues here at the hospital, they point out that academic medicine is secondary to practice in terms of both prestige and renumeration. Not so much the case in our field. Maybe it is the practitioners fault, but it seems that the academics tend to run our field more than the practice people. The final point that I would make is that every time a motivated and capable student is pushed into a midlevel profession, that negatively impacts us. I don't believe that "everyone should be a clinical psychologist" just because they want to. That would be harmful to the field, as well. Do I think that the professional schools should crank out the grads? No. But when I see postings of the credentials of some of the students on this board who are fighting for these select spots and then giving up to be a MSW, MFT, or LPC, or fork over 300k in debt to go to Alliant, then I see a problem.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Yea, I agree - There's no MCAT, there are no hard and fast prereqs for clinical psych training, and pretty much anyone can apply (qualified or not).

Exactly. The big issue is how much research have you done. That is the hurdle to get into the funded PhD programs. We see that every day on this board. We advise them to volunteer at a lab for two years or get a masters and start working. Many choose to pay for the professional degree. I did. I didn't even know about the research requirement during undergrad and many of the undergrad students on this board don't either. Who runs the psychology departments at these schools?

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't know how the academics created this mess other than to say that they were in charge of the profession for years until a two-tiered model of training was developed. Which hasn't been implemented well by all accounts. When I talk to my medical colleagues here at the hospital, they point out that academic medicine is secondary to practice in terms of both prestige and renumeration. Not so much the case in our field. Maybe it is the practitioners fault, but it seems that the academics tend to run our field more than the practice people.

Having straddled both ends of this, I don't see it that way at all. At least in neuro, the people lobbying on a national level are the practice people, not the academics. As for APA, which has been the lobbying end, remember that APS split off from because they were so practice oriented rather than scientifically oriented. If anything, the reverse of what you claim is true, it's the clinical side which has created whatever mess you are referring to in the wage area.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The academics aren't trying to push moonbeam & fairy dust treatment for everything from ADHD to autism.

 

[WisNeuro]

This is not a tacit rebuke of clinicians and enshrinement of academics. I myself am a primary clinician. It's just that the statements were just plain wrong based on some of the objective facts. Yes, this is a, in many cases, a difficult field to get into. It should be. We treat patients in a clinical context. Second, there is no real shortage of doctoral level professionals, in many places there is a glut, with the exception of rural areas (in which there is a shortage of almost all clinical professions). Last, it's hard to say why some of the posters did not get into programs without seeing their full application, test scores, and sitting in on the interview. To simply say that everyone with a GPA and GRE above X deserves a spot somewhere is a little absurd.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Having straddled both ends of this, I don't see it that way at all. At least in neuro, the people lobbying on a national level are the practice people, not the academics. As for APA, which has been the lobbying end, remember that APS split off from because they were so practice oriented rather than scientifically oriented. If anything, the reverse of what you claim is true, it's the clinical side which has created whatever mess you are referring to in the wage area.

I think that neuro is doing a good job carving out their training requirements and specialty and are probably not receiving much support from APA. In other words, don't you guys want board certification as a standard and is APA supporting this? I do know about the split from APS but I still think that the academics drive the field. Out here in the rural areas we have these stodgy old crusty old academics that they dust the cobwebs off every so often when they want to make another decision contrary to our profession!
Of course, we are in an earlier stage of our profession compared to the medical people so we are definitely creating this as we go.

 

[smalltownpsych]

This is not a tacit rebuke of clinicians and enshrinement of academics. I myself am a primary clinician. It's just that the statements were just plain wrong based on some of the objective facts. Yes, this is a, in many cases, a difficult field to get into. It should be. We treat patients in a clinical context. Second, there is no real shortage of doctoral level professionals, in many places there is a glut, with the exception of rural areas (in which there is a shortage of almost all clinical professions). Last, it's hard to say why some of the posters did not get into programs without seeing their full application, test scores, and sitting in on the interview. To simply say that everyone with a GPA and GRE above X deserves a spot somewhere is a little absurd.

And this was not a tacit rebuke of academics and enshrinement of clinicians. I completely agree that it should be a difficult field to get into. I am just not so sure that the way that we limit it is working very well I would prefer more weight being given to more objective measures. I also believe that undergrad psychology should be more like pre-med. I don't know if there are too many psychologists or not or if we just aren't doing a good job ensuring the level of expertise of the psychologists that we are training.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think that neuro is doing a good job carving out their training requirements and specialty and are probably not receiving much support from APA. In other words, don't you guys want board certification as a standard and is APA supporting this?

Rehab Psych is also taking a very similar path with strongly encouraging boarding. Job postings reflect the position within these specializes in regard to boarding (almost every advertisement I've seen in the past 3-5yrs requires the applicant to be board certified or board eligible). Some of the old guard may get a pass, but current students, early career psychologists, and all others need to be aware that this is the expectation (at least for neuropsych and rehab psych). I really hope other speciality areas go this route too.

 

[WisNeuro]

but I still think that the academics drive the field. Out here in the rural areas we have these stodgy old crusty old academics that they dust the cobwebs off every so often when they want to make another decision contrary to our profession!
Of course, we are in an earlier stage of our profession compared to the medical people so we are definitely creating this as we go.

We may just have to disagree here, but I have seen no evidence for this and good points of evidence to the contrary. I feel like academics is just a convenient scpegoat here for inaction of the field as a whole.

 

[473912]

I definitely agree that psych UG should be more like pre-med. I can't tell you how many times I heard "I want to be a ______ (usually nursing) major, but ______ course (usually math or chemistry) was too hard. So I switched majors to psychology." As someone who tries hard and takes my coursework and the subject very seriously, it was INFURIATING. Those people who are going into it as some fallback of 15th and 16th grade of high school should definitely be weeded out, and the process needs to be harder. Thankfully 100% of the people I heard that from, failed out of Experimental Psych or had zero interest in going to grad school.

Having said that, I had a rough young adulthood and my lower division UG grades were low. Thankfully, the school that I applied to only looked at my upper division and Psych specific coursework when calculating GPA for consideration (taken 10 years later, specific gpa 3.8 or so), otherwise, I probably wouldn't have gotten in. I think it would be unfair if despite me participating in research and medical clinical trials and a decade in a clinical setting with the diversity of patients I've treated... every university just summarily tossed my application because of my overall GPA. When it comes to consideration, I think my experience and upper division and specific grades puts me well ahead of a 21 year old who happened to get a A in history instead of a C. I think my school's GPA consideration MAY be a better way when considering gpa.

I may not have gotten into a elite, top tier school, but my school is APA and has a positive reputation in the professional community. I would rather not be a psychologist than to be a bad one. That's why I didn't even apply to lower-tier schools. In short, I feel like I've been given an (admittedly expensive) second chance to do what I've always wanted to do and not be doomed by my past. All I would ask is that when the powers that be implement whatever changes they do to improve the state of this profession, they don't kill opportunities of people like myself. Depending on some changes I've heard here and elsewhere, it might, or it may be left up to the schools to choose. Either way, we need to take care.

 

[smalltownpsych]

We may just have to disagree here, but I have seen no evidence for this and good points of evidence to the contrary. I feel like academics is just a convenient scpegoat here for inaction of the field as a whole.

I don't think that the academic institutions or psychologists are to blame for all our problems. Not by a long shot. I do worry about the system that we created that led to the Tate that we are in and I think there is a lot of blame to go around. It is counterintuitive to think that the institutions and psychologists that are upholding the higher standards of the field are part of the problem and it is not an easy argument to make. Some of it relates to we are only as strong as our weakest link. it also has to do with each psychologist being an advertisement for our field. We want the best and the brightest out there representing us and I think that we lose sight of that at times. i don't want the "anybody can be a psychologist" and I don't want us to be "only therapists". I really think it would help if some of the people and institutions who do this the "right way" would do a bit more self reflection.

 

[FLpsychstudent]

I was nervous I wouldn't get in when I applied and had already done 2 years as an RA where I felt like I had learned pretty much everything I could there. I was planning to consider switching labs to get more diverse research experience in the short-run, and to apply to a mix of PhD and research-heavy master's programs the next year...then if I only got into the master's to apply for the PhD later on. I decided at the time that if I didn't get into a PhD program after all that I would be a career project coordinator I worked at the VA at the time and saw some people make a decent living out of it, and I knew I loved working in a lab/research. I also considered pursuing an MSW but did not think I would be happy doing that in the long run with all the clinical work and low pay. Luckily I got in so didn't have to worry. But I just couldn't see myself doing anything else

 

[WisNeuro]

I really think it would help if some of the people and institutions who do this the "right way" would do a bit more self reflection.

What does this even mean though?

 

[Cheetah89]

I may not have gotten into a elite, top tier school, but my school is APA and has a positive reputation in the professional community. I would rather not be a psychologist than to be a bad one. That's why I didn't even apply to lower-tier schools. In short, I feel like I've been given an (admittedly expensive) second chance to do what I've always wanted to do and not be doomed by my past. All I would ask is that when the powers that be implement whatever changes they do to improve the state of this profession, they don't kill opportunities of people like myself.

I totally agree with you. I also have strong credentials and after applying twice for funded PhD programs, was not accepted. I have three years of research experience in a prestigious hospital, almost two years of direct clinical experience as a psychometrist, good GPA and great GREs (math was a little lower) and solid letters of recommendation. I only applied to schools that were good research fits and after getting zero interviews the first time and 5 interviews the second time, was only accepted into PsyD programs. I'm in my mid-20s and I've been working towards a career in this field since junior year of college - almost six years. So what am I supposed to do? Spend thousands of dollars applying a third time and likely be rejected again? I know I am a qualified, dedicated student and would love to go to a school that is fully funded and provides excellent research training as well as clinical. But with those schools having acceptance rates between 2 and 3 percent, it's just really unlikely. I also know that I am not exceptional - people who have way better credentials than I do get turned away in droves every year.

I have accepted an offer at one of the PsyD programs, and I am really excited about it. The debt aspect is obviously not ideal, but the program's match rates and other statistics are very good, so I am comfortable with going into some debt if it means I can finally begin the training that I've worked so hard to begin. Then I read these threads on this forum and the higher-ups in the field who review apps for internships and post-doc have obvious biases against PsyD degrees. I know what you're going to say - "It's just the FSPSs and diploma mills of the field that we hate!" But I'm just not buying that. There is definitely some kind of de facto bias against all PsyDs unless its Rutgers or Baylor, and I don't really know why because many of the programs have good match rates and train good clinicians. I understand that you want to caution people away from accruing large amounts of debt, but if the person is fully aware of that and has a financial plan to pay for a degree from a school that provides good training, what is left to be so critical about?

This isn't meant to be a rant, though I guess it turned into one... I'm just trying to present my perspective as someone who is serious about this profession, who has done everything the "right way" and still come up short. I guess what I'm trying to say is please give people like myself and 473912 a chance when we are applying APA internships, post-docs and jobs. We may not be coming from well-known fully funded programs, but that is not for a lack of intelligence, dedication or quality training (I hope). It's just that so many qualified people who spend years and years preparing for these programs will never be accepted - the admissions statistics are bleak. In my opinion, this will be happening more and more in the near future - qualified students who are sick of being rejected because this whole process is a crapshoot are going to turn to paying for their degree. And people who know what they're doing are not going to go to a diploma mill, they're going to go to a "second-tier" PsyD with solid outcomes, accrue some debt, and hope that the "powers that be" will at least give them a chance.

 

[WisNeuro]

And people who know what they're doing are not going to go to a diploma mill, they're going to go to a "second-tier" PsyD with solid outcomes, accrue some debt, and hope that the "powers that be" will at least give them a chance.

If you put in the work and distinguish yourself, you'll get a chance when it comes to internships and postdocs at top sites. It's just much harder to do at some places than others. Who you know and where you train matter a lot, especially in some sub-fields.

 

[smalltownpsych]

What does this even mean though?

Just pointing to the tendency to not see the flaws in their own perspective and model by pointing to the obvious flaws in say the FSPS model. I think Cheetah's post points to some of the flaws in the fully-funded PhD model which intimates that if you can't get into one of them, then you are not good enough, which leads to second-class status of some psychologists. Even the common response on this board (and it is probably an appropriate response) indicates that when you go to PsyD program you will have to distinguish from the rest of the "not good-enoughs" indicates that bias. I hope you don't think I am being critical of you personally because I tell students the same thing. Yes, I am exaggerating the language a bit, but that is more of a rhetorical device to try and make my point as opposed to a literal scientific communication.

 

[bcliff]

Just pointing to the tendency to not see the flaws in their own perspective and model by pointing to the obvious flaws in say the FSPS model. I think Cheetah's post points to some of the flaws in the fully-funded PhD model which intimates that if you can't get into one of them, then you are not good enough, which leads to second-class status of some psychologists. Even the common response on this board (and it is probably an appropriate response) indicates that when you go to PsyD program you will have to distinguish from the rest of the "not good-enoughs" indicates that bias. I hope you don't think I am being critical of you personally because I tell students the same thing. Yes, I am exaggerating the language a bit, but that is more of a rhetorical device to try and make my point as opposed to a literal scientific communication.

I would agree with you if there were a shortage of psychologists, but the supply/demand ratio for psychologists is out of whack right now, and the earning potential for a psychologist really doesn't justify the amount of debt that some students are forced to take out by attending unfunded programs. There are also other options for those looking to do research (experimental psych, public health, etc.) and other options for those looking to practice (LCSW, MFT, LPC, etc.), so clinical psychology is not the only route to a career in mental health/clinical research.

 

[CKAW]

I was nervous I wouldn't get in when I applied and had already done 2 years as an RA where I felt like I had learned pretty much everything I could there. I was planning to consider switching labs to get more diverse research experience in the short-run, and to apply to a mix of PhD and research-heavy master's programs the next year...then if I only got into the master's to apply for the PhD later on. I decided at the time that if I didn't get into a PhD program after all that I would be a career project coordinator I worked at the VA at the time and saw some people make a decent living out of it, and I knew I loved working in a lab/research. I also considered pursuing an MSW but did not think I would be happy doing that in the long run with all the clinical work and low pay. Luckily I got in so didn't have to worry. But I just couldn't see myself doing anything else

It's just not really enough of a difference to matter to me, to be honest. Median income for LCSWs is 68k, median for clinical psychologists is 88k; when you consider that one spends 5 more years in the workforce while the other is still in school, that's literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of lost income you need to play catch up on. Feel free to chime in if anyone sees a flaw in this reasoning, but I feel no real regret in taking a pass on this career, particularly given the fact that most students I've ever interacted with seem more psychologically ravaged than the clients they work with. I guess it comes down to how important it is to you to do clinical research, and after a few years of exposure to the eternal traffic jam of academia, I'm literally wiping my brow and saying "Whew" thinking about it. I'm just not that kind of person, though, and would much rather focus on clinical work.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I would agree with you if there were a shortage of psychologists, but the supply/demand ratio for psychologists is out of whack right now, and the earning potential for a psychologist really doesn't justify the amount of debt that some students are forced to take out by attending unfunded programs. There are also other options for those looking to do research (experimental psych, public health, etc.) and other options for those looking to practice (LCSW, MFT, LPC, etc.), so clinical psychology is not the only route to a career in mental health/clinical research.

This is the common sense perspective. It is also the perspective that I am challenging. Here is just one point to think about: Why should we encourage more people to take lower paying paths and compete with us? How does that benefit our profession?

 

[bcliff]

This is the common sense perspective. It is also the perspective that I am challenging. Here is just one point to think about: Why should we encourage more people to take lower paying paths and compete with us? How does that benefit our profession?

I think a PhD/PsyD with $$$ in debt is in a much worse position to negotiate salary than someone coming out a well regarded MSW program at a state school. If you check the reimbursement data for most insurance companies you'll see that mid level providers (LCSW, LPC, MFT, etc.) are often reimbursed only a few dollars less per hour of psychotherapy than a PhD/PsyD - MDs are often reimburesd $50+ more per hour (assessment & therapy) than psychologists or mid-level providers, which is frustrating.

The psychologist I worked for in PP (as a psychometrist) saw roughly 85% assessment cases and 15% long term therapy cases. We had an LCSW on staff who we would often refer our assessment cases to if they seemed like a good fit for regular therapy sessions. We also had a psychiatric NP in our office, who we often referred patients to for med management. I think this is a good example of mental health professionals working symbiotically to provide care for patients.

 

[deleted343839]

This is the common sense perspective. It is also the perspective that I am challenging. Here is just one point to think about: Why should we encourage more people to take lower paying paths and compete with us? How does that benefit our profession?

I can see both sides of this. But if master's level clinicians are viewed as "competition" for psychologists (implying functional equivalence), then we have a bigger problem on our hands.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

...I feel no real regret in taking a pass on this career, particularly given the fact that most students I've ever interacted with seem more psychologically ravaged than the clients they work with.

I don't believe this is very accurate. Sure it can be stressful as a student, but it usually gets better. The vast majority of practicing psychologists are well adjusted people. It can be a much different experience when you can have more control over your schedule, you practice under your own license, and you make money that is more in line w. the work (and not $20k-$25k/yr for intern year).