Podiatry impressions?

[yanks26dmb]

I remember seeing some stats about the MCAT and the possibly of failing step1... 24 MCAT vs. 30+ passed step1 at almost the same %... I believe it was 92% vs 96%. They did not mention average score though.

People have to remember that med school was not extremely competitive 20+ years ago... It's strange that med school has gotten so competitive when tuition is skyrocketing and docs working condition has become much worst.

I don't buy that. I'd really like to see the study you're talking about.

edit: on second thought, I wouldn't be totally shocked to see this, though I'm still doubtful.

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I remember seeing some stats about the MCAT and the possibly of failing step1... 24 MCAT vs. 30+ passed step1 at almost the same %... I believe it was 92% vs 96%. They did not mention average score though.

People have to remember that med school was not extremely competitive 20+ years ago... It's strange that med school has gotten so competitive when tuition is skyrocketing and docs working condition has become much worst.

I think in general the body of people applying and getting into medical school is generally more than capable of both passing and succeeding in it ( I'd argue that a great deal of this is due to exposure to the majority of first year subjects is now common in 3rd & 4th year undergrad). Which fundamentally does however bring up the question of whether or not having a class of 4.0/38s is inherently better than not in producing competent physicians you'd send your family members to or etc.

Medicine and health care doctorates like Pharm,etc are becoming more competitive because the routes for young professionals to obtain or amass wealth or adequate employment to equal the life styles they grew up in are becoming more and more scarce. 70% of the country makes under 50k a year, if a college graduate has a full time job that's already an achievement, benefits and a pay of 40k and you're already in the top 25th percentile of graduates.
I mean even give 80k a year with the assurance that doctors will continue to be well employed and you'll have tons of applicants.

 

[Seth Joo]

I think in general the body of people applying and getting into medical school is generally more than capable of both passing and succeeding in it ( I'd argue that a great deal of this is due to exposure to the majority of first year subjects is now common in 3rd & 4th year undergrad). Which fundamentally does however bring up the question of whether or not having a class of 4.0/38s is inherently better than not in producing competent physicians you'd send your family members to or etc.

Medicine and health care doctorates like Pharm,etc are becoming more competitive because the routes for young professionals to obtain or amass wealth or adequate employment to equal the life styles they grew up in are becoming more and more scarce. 70% of the country makes under 50k a year, if a college graduate has a full time job that's already an achievement, benefits and a pay of 40k and you're already in the top 25th percentile of graduates.
I mean even give 80k a year with the assurance that doctors will continue to be well employed and you'll have tons of applicants.

I believe there are a couple of reasons why DO school admissions have become much more competitive than say 10-15 years ago, I believe one of them is the tough economy, before the GFC many young college graduates would be going directly to the work force, these days job prospects for many young graduates are not like they were prior to the 2008 recession, even though we are in a "recovery" most of the new jobs that have been created are not the kind that pay middle class salaries.

The other is that marketing tactics of the AOA has paid dividends in that many premeds now see the DO as a valid path to a career in Medicine, many people who would not make it into an Allopathic school but otherwise are fairly strong students who might have some weaknesses in their numbers are shunning foreign medical schools for DO schools.

Some of my clinical preceptors in school who graduated from DO school in the mid 1990s and earlier even told me they probably would not get into DO school today.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Every time the economy goes sour there is a general push from people to enter medical school. Whether we want to admit it or not it is one of the easiest and securest ways of making a salary above 100k and for many also integrate their personal interests.

Honestly though whether we want to admit it or not our generation got shafted hard. Our generation's prospects in employment are awful. Half my friends are working either retail or in jobs that didn't require a degree. Having so many middle class kids get shafted is going to be a real good build up for social upheaval.

 

[Seth Joo]

Every time the economy goes sour there is a general push from people to enter medical school. Whether we want to admit it or not it is one of the easiest and securest ways of making a salary above 100k and for many also integrate their personal interests.

Honestly though whether we want to admit it or not our generation got shafted hard. Our generation's prospects in employment are awful. Half my friends are working either retail or in jobs that didn't require a degree. Having so many middle class kids get shafted is going to be a real good build up for social upheaval.

The last 7 years have been unprecedented in post World War 2 America, the last time things were like this it was the 1930s, the only reason its not as bad is massive government intervention, we had pundits saying the recession of 2008 ended in 2009 but the Occupy Wall Street started in 2011 but quickly fizzled out, yet the economy that preceded the 2008 crash still never returned. I constantly see businesses opening and closing all the time. I do not think we will see an economic expansion like the one that the country experienced during the last 20 years of the 20th Century.

That is why so many people are going to recession proof type work, health care, law enforcement, etc.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Fundamentally it's because our entire world economy has become invalidated because our whole world has changed. Fundamentally we're at the end of arguably the longest period of societal evolution that has existed since the 1300-1500s. On one hand we have the progressive automatization of our industry and other aspects of life to the point that entire careers and fields are being invalidated ( Usually this would follow with a culture shift like introduction of new more research jobs or etc. But instead we've opted on the highest level to ****** this growth and basically are just putting enormous amounts of people into half labor or unemployment and low status). On the other hand you've got the progressively new world of the internet which essentially is a new frontier and an enormous change to the very way we go about our society.

In the end we've got a huge problem in that our society is showing signs of changing, but it's also being resisted by enormous organizations from the top down because it both threatens the old order and pushes us closer to an entire frame shift of perspective.

 

[Seth Joo]

Fundamentally it's because our entire world economy has become invalidated because our whole world has changed. Fundamentally we're at the end of arguably the longest period of societal evolution that has existed since the 1300-1500s. On one hand we have the progressive automatization of our industry and other aspects of life to the point that entire careers and fields are being invalidated ( Usually this would follow with a culture shift like introduction of new more research jobs or etc. But instead we've opted on the highest level to ****** this growth and basically are just putting enormous amounts of people into half labor or unemployment and low status). On the other hand you've got the progressively new world of the internet which essentially is a new frontier and an enormous change to the very way we go about our society.

In the end we've got a huge problem in that our society is showing signs of changing, but it's also being resisted by enormous organizations from the top down because it both threatens the old order and pushes us closer to an entire frame shift of perspective.

That and the bold line that separated the third world from the first world is disappearing, it is becoming more of a fine line, soon there will be no line. You definitely see a lot more pessimism among people in countries traditionally thought of as "wealthy" while you see more optimism in places that are still third world but are rapidly developing that being said these rapidly developing third world countries will never develop a type of universal prosperity that the West used to enjoy in its prime years and many do not see anything particularly wrong about it. The 21st Century is not looking like a Ray Bradbury or Isaac Asimov Novel.

Bradbury wrote a book where humanity flew to Mars in 1999 and found alien life, the recent Martian film allegedly takes place in the year 2035.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Obviously it's not going to be an Asimov novel, but the inevitable reality is that we will eventually be switching over from an economy and world perspective of working a lot to one that has us working less and doing a lot more with our free time such exploration and philosophical endeavors.
Well that is if we are allowed to sustain the aforementioned growth.

 

[Seth Joo]

Obviously it's not going to be an Asimov novel, but the inevitable reality is that we will eventually be switching over from an economy and world perspective of working a lot to one that has us working less and doing a lot more with our free time such exploration and philosophical endeavors.
Well that is if we are allowed to sustain the aforementioned growth.

The 20th Century seemed like a much better time, when you think about what is happening in the world over the past 15 years, so far the 21st century is pretty bleak, its no surprise that science fiction films are becoming more and more bleak and dystopian sci-fi films are now mainstream entertainment. In the past such films were small in scale.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The 20th Century seemed like a much better time, when you think about what is happening in the world over the past 15 years, so far the 21st century is pretty bleak, its no surprise that science fiction films are becoming more and more bleak and dystopian sci-fi films are now mainstream entertainment. In the past such films were small in scale.

I'd argue that's actually because people feel like the problems in society are significantly more subtle and they themselves cannot really fix them. These movies have a wonderful characteristic of having a problem that is solvable by a main character that the people can relate to.

But honestly, it's bleak because fundamentally we're a much more awake society as a whole.

 

[yanks26dmb]

The 20th Century seemed like a much better time, when you think about what is happening in the world over the past 15 years, so far the 21st century is pretty bleak, its no surprise that science fiction films are becoming more and more bleak and dystopian sci-fi films are now mainstream entertainment. In the past such films were small in scale.

And in the 90s people said this about the decades that preceded them...the people in the 70s said this about the 60s...the 60s said this about the 50s...

Things often seem better when you're on the other side of the fence looking back through rose-tinted glasses.

 

[Seth Joo]

And in the 90s people said this about the decades that preceded them...the people in the 70s said this about the 60s...the 60s said this about the 50s...

Things often seem better when you're on the other side of the fence looking back through rose-tinted glasses.

Things sure are a matter of perspective but these days its easier for people to become more informed because of the internet and the easy dissemination of information. Also the mainstream media is playing a role these days in conditioning people to think negatively.

People often develop a fondness for a time in the past when life in the current time period becomes difficult, this is known as nostalgia.

From an American perspective, the 20th Century was an amazing time, America had some its greatest leaders, accomplished great things.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Things sure are a matter of perspective but these days its easier for people to become more informed because of the internet and the easy dissemination of information. Also the mainstream media is playing a role these days in conditioning people to think negatively.

People often develop a fondness for a time in the past when life in the current time period becomes difficult, this is known as nostalgia.

From an American perspective, the 20th Century was an amazing time, America had some its greatest leaders, accomplished great things.

Idk if living under constant fear of nuclear war, an arms race that built up the military-industrial complex, and enormous social upheavals can be considered a great time to live....

In my opinion we have in a little over a decade brought about more scientific advancement and exploration than the last century.

 

[Seth Joo]

Idk if living under constant fear of nuclear war, an arms race that built up the military-industrial complex, and enormous social upheavals can be considered a great time to live....

In my opinion we have in a little over a decade brought about more scientific advancement and exploration than the last century.

That problem still has not gone away, in fact its even worse than it was in the 20th Century, the USSR was a relatively stable adversary. The adversaries we had in the last century were not hiding in caves and plotting attacks.

GM had electric automobile technology in the early 1990s but never bothered to mass produce it.

We have social upheaval today, globalization which is creating serious problems, climate change which is changing weather problems.
The 20th Century had problems but there were many advancements as well, that being said many of the troubles of the last century continue to the plague the world today.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That problem still has not gone away, in fact its even worse than it was in the 20th Century, the USSR was a relatively stable adversary. The adversaries we had in the last century were not hiding in caves and plotting attacks.

GM had electric automobile technology in the early 1990s but never bothered to mass produce it.

We have social upheaval today, globalization which is creating serious problems, climate change which is changing weather problems.
The 20th Century had problems but there were many advancements as well, that being said many of the troubles of the last century continue to the plague the world today.

Right, the chances of you being killed by Al-Qaida or ISIS are infitismally smaller than the USSR. The Cold War put us on the tippy toes of a planet wide species extermination event. Sorry, but when it comes down to it you've got more issues than some fringe fanatics in caves.

I'm not saying we fixed all the problems from the last decades. I'm saying that we've certainly got more of the tools to fix them too.



Also wasn't this a thread about podiatry....?

 

[yanks26dmb]

Things sure are a matter of perspective but these days its easier for people to become more informed because of the internet and the easy dissemination of information. Also the mainstream media is playing a role these days in conditioning people to think negatively.

People often develop a fondness for a time in the past when life in the current time period becomes difficult, this is known as nostalgia.

From an American perspective, the 20th Century was an amazing time, America had some its greatest leaders, accomplished great things.

Japanese internment camps, the great depression, Jim crow laws, the Kennedy assassination, the war on drugs, AIDS....21st century sure has big shoes to fill!

But yes, great things also happened in the 20th century as well. Either way, I think every time period has its ups and downs, only time will tell how things compare...

 

[Seth Joo]

Right, the chances of you being killed by Al-Qaida or ISIS are infitismally smaller than the USSR. The Cold War put us on the tippy toes of a planet wide species extermination event. Sorry, but when it comes down to it you've got more issues than some fringe fanatics in caves.

I'm not saying we fixed all the problems from the last decades. I'm saying that we've certainly got more of the tools to fix them too.



Also wasn't this a thread about podiatry....?

I will eat my words if two things happen within the next 20 years, Interstellar space travel, and flying automobiles. I doubt either will happen in the next 20 years. Interstellar travel will probably not happen until later this century.

 

[FootAndAnkle]

From what I recall, even though integrated DPM programs within DO programs have the same courses, their exams are different. I was just saying that I would find it hard to say confidently that a class that was by majority at or below a 24 mcat avg would have a similar pass rate to a DO or MD program whose avg was above a 30 simply on the basis of test taking abilities for STs. I may just be talking g our my butt though since I have no evidence to back my argument! Obviously I have no real hard stand on this topic since I have no ground for it.

This is not the case where I attend - we took the same exams and were graded the same through the full year I and II basic science curricula. The primary differences are that we take podiatry-specific courses instead of OMM and our clinical medical education courses are taught by MDs and theirs are taught, for the most part, by DOs.

 

[FootAndAnkle]

To be clear, I don't absolutely equate scoring well on standardized tests to intelligence. I think there are many factors that can define intelligence.

That said, people like yourself who obviously excel at standardized tests have to be pretty rare in pod school, right? I mean, how else can you have an incoming average of 23/24...?

It's true the mean incoming MCAT scores are unfortunately low - I think working on feet and ankles is kind of a hard sell unless you know the profession pretty well.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

It's true the mean incoming MCAT scores are unfortunately low - I think working on feet and ankles is kind of a hard sell unless you know the profession pretty well.

Ironically people think they are above working on 'nasty feet' and then want to get into a 'prestigious' Urology residency or colo-rectal fellowship. Anyhow, I don't think people should write off podiatry nearly as quick as many do. Its a great gig.

A similar example is how people always think the girls in the manicure shops are doing such a lowly job, even while those same nail techs are pulling in 100k (mostly cash). I have a friend who went to nursing school with me and my wife and when she got done, saw the offer sheet for a nurse and decided to go back to be a nail tech cause she made twice as much.

People have strange thoughts sometimes when it comes to what they are 'above' doing. Its fine tho, leaves more room for people like yourself to clean up

 

[DamnCroissants]

It's most likely a salary thing. Considering that podiatrists earn less than most physicians (except the pods doing nothing but surgery), they probably made it cheaper for that reason. I know what you mean though kind of a strange thought.

This is so, so wrong. Podiatrists that are making higher than average salaries get the money from routine procedures. Every podiatrist I shadowed stressed this. DPMs are "underpaid" in comparison to MD/DO for the same surgeries.

You are not paying the school a higher tuition because of the higher job salary. They are charging that much because they can, and a lot of MD/DO schools have much larger facilities and costs associated with the programs (especially if they do research) in comparison to DPM programs. When you have a relatively small applicant pool, class size and faculty/resources compared to MD/DO, you can charge less.

 

[IslandStyle808]

This is so, so wrong. Podiatrists that are making higher than average salaries get the money from routine procedures. Every podiatrist I shadowed stressed this. DPMs are "underpaid" in comparison to MD/DO for the same surgeries.

You are not paying the school a higher tuition because of the higher job salary. They are charging that much because they can, and a lot of MD/DO schools have much larger facilities and costs associated with the programs (especially if they do research) in comparison to DPM programs. When you have a relatively small applicant pool, class size and faculty/resources compared to MD/DO, you can charge less.

I have acknowledge that podiatry salaries wasn't the reason later in my posts (3 months back). However, what is the difference in terms of facilities in comparison to DO programs? Genuinely curious.

Why would having a smaller applicant pool and class size would decrease what they charge? Unless this is in relation to how much cheaper resources are in DPM training, then it doesn't make sense. DO schools expand class out to increase revenue to pay for resources (MD schools get additional funds from research). If you have a smaller class size, then wouldn't cost go up?

I agree though they are increases tuition cost all across the board because they can get away with it.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I have acknowledge that podiatry salaries wasn't the reason later in my posts (3 months back). However, what is the difference in terms of facilities in comparison to DO programs? Genuinely curious.

Why would having a smaller applicant pool and class size would decrease what they charge? Unless this is in relation to how much cheaper resources are in DPM training, then it doesn't make sense. DO schools expand class out to increase revenue to pay for resources (MD schools get additional funds from research). If you have a smaller class size, then wouldn't cost go up?

I agree though they are increases tuition cost all across the board because they can get away with it.

It honestly might come down to simple supply and demand. There are literally thousands upon thousands of people who want to be doctors and would pay out the nose to do it. I think the last pod stats (one of my really good friends just got accepted to pod school) I saw were that around 1000 people apply every year and about 600ish of them matriculate in pod school. Now this might be simplified but I wouldn't be surprised if simple economics had a ton to do with it. If they charged as much as the DO school people would stop applying I suspect. Just a thought.

Side note, most of the pod matriculants get multiple acceptances as well. My friend was accepted to like 6 or something with a 3.0 and a 30. Admittedly the 30 is probably what did led to so many acceptances because I've heard pod schools love it when they get an applicant with a "high" MCAT. Podiatry is definitely a diamond in the rough career wise that a lot of people don't think about.

 

[DamnCroissants]

It honestly might come down to simple supply and demand. There are literally thousands upon thousands of people who want to be doctors and would pay out the nose to do it. I think the last pod stats (one of my really good friends just got accepted to pod school) I saw were that around 1000 people apply every year and about 600ish of them matriculate in pod school. Now this might be simplified but I wouldn't be surprised if simple economics had a ton to do with it. If they charged as much as the DO school people would stop applying I suspect. Just a thought.

Side note, most of the pod matriculants get multiple acceptances as well. My friend was accepted to like 6 or something with a 3.0 and a 30. Admittedly the 30 is probably what did led to so many acceptances because I've heard pod schools love it when they get an applicant with a "high" MCAT. Podiatry is definitely a diamond in the rough career wise that a lot of people don't think about.

This is what I was getting at. There is pretty low demand for the seats at the schools, with some schools even accepting students very late in the cycle. When you have high acceptance rates and multiple acceptances from a small applicant pool, the schools need to generate some demand. Schools like NYCPM, where laws have previously limited NY podiatrists combined with NY living expenses, have much lower tuition than a school like AZPOD with an outstanding rep.

 

[Yadster101]

Honestly though whether we want to admit it or not our generation got shafted hard. Our generation's prospects in employment are awful. Half my friends are working either retail or in jobs that didn't require a degree. Having so many middle class kids get shafted is going to be a real good build up for social upheaval.

The people that got shafted are the ones fail to accept the truth. We've been told since kindergarten that work hard and follow the HS --> College --> Career path and you will be set for life. It's understandably difficult for ppl to give up this "path to success" idea because we were taught it by our trusted parents, teachers, etc. The paths to success now are 1) get good jobs out of college (minority of students), 2) go to grad school (med, dent, pa, engineering, etc.) or 3) accept that their undergrad degree was useless and then choose to pursue something in demand which could range from IT to welding.

I've met many ppl in group 3 that pretty much never used their bio degrees and instead went onto to have successful careers in business, IT, and finance. The people that felt compelled to use their undergrad degree, because of the time/costs, were the ones stuck being lab techs, medical secretaries, etc.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The people that got shafted are the ones fail to accept the truth. We've been told since kindergarten that work hard and follow the HS --> College --> Career path and you will be set for life. It's understandably difficult for ppl to give up this "path to success" idea because we were taught it by our trusted parents, teachers, etc. The paths to success now are 1) get good jobs out of college (minority of students), 2) go to grad school (med, dent, pa, engineering, etc.) or 3) accept that their undergrad degree was useless and then choose to pursue something in demand which could range from IT to welding.

I've met many ppl in group 3 that pretty much never used their bio degrees and instead went onto to have successful careers in business, IT, and finance. The people that felt compelled to use their undergrad degree, because of the time/costs, were the ones stuck being lab techs, medical secretaries, etc.

Except that's not my point at all. My point is that the environment itself these days is problematic. The fact is that we're working more and getting less for it and all the same we're supposed to be happy for it or face professional destruction. The pathway to a successful middle class life is simply getting more bleak and pathways for normal people to get on job training are disappearing.

But again, that's my perspective. I found the fact that my friends with full time jobs, have a week off of vacation ( A ridiculous notion mind you in a first world nation), crappy health coverage, work a job that formerly needed two, to be unbearable conditions.

 

[Yadster101]

Except that's not my point at all. My point is that the environment itself these days is problematic. The fact is that we're working more and getting less for it and all the same we're supposed to be happy for it or face professional destruction. The pathway to a successful middle class life is simply getting more bleak and pathways for normal people to get on job training are disappearing.

But again, that's my perspective. I found the fact that my friends with full time jobs, have a week off of vacation ( A ridiculous notion mind you in a first world nation), crappy health coverage, work a job that formerly needed two, to be unbearable conditions.

The environment will definitely be problematic if you pursue the traditional routes. The reason so many people are facing the challenges your friends are facing is because they refuse to look at the opportunities that do exist. To my knowledge, the skilled trade fields are doing exceptionally well. People working as plumbers, welders, etc. can earn a great salary and then work their way up to managing the business side of things or open up their own operations. Those that want something more "academic" can learn Ruby on Rails, UI/UX, web development, etc.

The environment is not problematical. It's simply changing.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The environment will definitely be problematic if you pursue the traditional routes. The reason so many people are facing the challenges your friends are facing is because they refuse to look at the opportunities that do exist. To my knowledge, the skilled trade fields are doing exceptionally well. People working as plumbers, welders, etc. can earn a great salary and then work their way up to managing the business side of things or open up their own operations. Those that want something more "academic" can learn Ruby on Rails, UI/UX, web development, etc.

The environment is not problematical. It's simply changing.

I think we need to be a bit more real than thinking that the solution is just moving people into demand positions. Sure, it's a great strategy and I agree we should be doing it. However we need to acknowledge that there's an underlying issue in the way we as a society are approaching labor and the changing forces in the market. But it still does not address the inherent reality that we're suffering an enormous amount of income inequality and that we're a lot worse off than both our parents generation and the rest of the first world in terms of many opportunities and social programs.

And yes, it is problematic. It's absolutely horrific because when it comes down to it our money is going a lot less than it should be and starting up on your own feet is significantly more difficult now than before.

 

[Seth Joo]

My school has a Podiatry school, every year a good number leave the Podiatry program and apply to the DO school, reason is that DOs have more options in the real world. Look up some podiatry boards and you will know the reason.

 

[GypsyHummus]

My school has a Podiatry school, every year a good number leave the Podiatry program and apply to the DO school, reason is that DOs have more options in the real world. Look up some podiatry boards and you will know the reason.

are they successful?

 

[68PGunner]

You guys need to stop this fiction about our economy still in a recession. According to our POTUS, the US economy is booming!

 

[Giovanotto]

You guys need to stop this fiction about our economy still in a recession. According to our POTUS, the US economy is booming!

Yeah, right? The stock market this Monday morning is a perfect example of that /s

 

[68PGunner]

Yeah, right? The stock market this Monday morning is a perfect example of that /s

The market isn't open today. I actually agree with him in that I think our economy is booming. However, as an ex trader, I personally loaded up puts -- a form of derivatives -- betting that the market would be down since the start of the year. There's a lot more to the price action of the market than the actual economy.