Pre- vs Post-Interview Candidate Ranking

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curiousjorge

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As a current applicant, I often wonder how important an interview is in comparison to the rest of my application. If I've been invited for an interview, I already know the program has included me in its top 40 or so applicants (depending on its size), but I never know where I sit in that pile. So, this is a question for people on the other side of the discussion - those who interview candidates and sit on interview committees. At your institutions, how much can an applicant's rank shift based on the interviews alone? (And I ask this more in terms of people who interview well, because people who interview very poorly are probably off the list regardless.)

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As a current applicant, I often wonder how important an interview is in comparison to the rest of my application. If I've been invited for an interview, I already know the program has included me in its top 40 or so applicants (depending on its size), but I never know where I sit in that pile. So, this is a question for people on the other side of the discussion - those who interview candidates and sit on interview committees. At your institutions, how much can an applicant's rank shift based on the interviews alone?

At the 2 institutions where I was involved with interviews, everyone that got an interview was considered a wash with all the other candidates. We may have a couple exceptions each year for people who had just ridiculous CV's (and that was not due to their board scores, but always do to some extraordinary thing they did--play division I basketball, play in a symphony, work as an assistant ambassador to China, or whatever). Thus the interview was crucial. When we met as a group right after interviews, I had my pile of no-ways and definitely's. So did the other interviewers. Anyone who was in the majority of definites was considered. Anyone who got all definites was ranked very high. We only took 3 a year at both programs so we usually only ranked those that were all definites and didn't need to dip too far into the mostly definite piles. Your rank shifted dramatically at both places based on the interview.

If you get invited for an interview, how you perform in it is huge and there's several posts on what to do and what not to do in those to have a good result.

(And I ask this more in terms of people who interview well, because people who interview very poorly are probably off the list regardless.)

Not sure what you meant there, but if you meant that poor interviewees are often not invited to interviews interviews in the first place because they didn't look as good on their paperwork, you'd be wrong. I was always stunned by how I interviewed someone with step I's above 240, AOA, all Honors, and he/she was a complete dufus or a d-bag. It was remarkable.

In my opinion, if you get an interview, we've already decided that you're academically worthy on an ENT spot, now it's time to determine if you are a good personality fit in the program.
 
At the 2 institutions where I was involved with interviews, everyone that got an interview was considered a wash with all the other candidates. We may have a couple exceptions each year for people who had just ridiculous CV's (and that was not due to their board scores, but always do to some extraordinary thing they did--play division I basketball, play in a symphony, work as an assistant ambassador to China, or whatever). Thus the interview was crucial. When we met as a group right after interviews, I had my pile of no-ways and definitely's. So did the other interviewers. Anyone who was in the majority of definites was considered. Anyone who got all definites was ranked very high. We only took 3 a year at both programs so we usually only ranked those that were all definites and didn't need to dip too far into the mostly definite piles. Your rank shifted dramatically at both places based on the interview.

If you get invited for an interview, how you perform in it is huge and there's several posts on what to do and what not to do in those to have a good result.

Thanks...that's awesome. I always kind of figured that with scores that were less than stellar (relative to the ENT applicant pool), one would be at a disadvantage even at the interview stage and after. That is, I figured programs built Step 1, Step 2, AOA status, etc. into their applicant scoring algorithm, even if they ranked people right after their interview day. But that's pretty sweet that the playing field is more level once we get to the interview.

"(And I ask this more in terms of people who interview well, because people who interview very poorly are probably off the list regardless.)
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Not sure what you meant there, but if you meant that poor interviewees are often not invited to interviews interviews in the first place because they didn't look as good on their paperwork, you'd be wrong. I was always stunned by how I interviewed someone with step I's above 240, AOA, all Honors, and he/she was a complete dufus or a d-bag. It was remarkable.

What I meant here was that even the hotshots on paper would not be ranked highly if they were huge d-bags in the interview, like you were saying.
 
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That is, I figured programs built Step 1, Step 2, AOA status, etc. into their applicant scoring algorithm, even if they ranked people right after their interview day.

Some do. One of the Chairmen under which I worked had an algorithm for that kind of stuff, but it was clear that after a few years, his algorithm did not predict successful residents very well compared to just looking at personalities at the interview stage and so even he changed after some time.

I know there are residencies that have the numbers play into their algorithm but from discussing it with colleagues, I think more and more are getting away from it because there seems to be a threshold where once you pass, you're academically able to be a great ENT and a threshold where once you surpass, you're less likely to have the social skills to excel in a multifaceted way. That's not to say every genius isn't socially gifted, but that is to say that someone who spends every waking moment in a lab churning out papers may not be as interesting as the person who is a little more well-rounded.
 
I would echo the above. As a resident I interview all the applicants and have get say so in terms of the ranking as much as anyone else. We have a handful that are definite no-go. We would rather not match than have them. We have a handful that are exceptional. A lot of the others fall somewhere in the middle. We are a small program so we don't interview a ton of folks.

Some of the best folks on paper are absolute duds in person, it's really amazing how odd some people are and how little they can hide it.
 
The interview is critical. It is probably the single thing that sinks candidates when they get in the door.

It really is quite amazing what you can learn about an individual during an interview. I've seen plenty of candidates who (on paper) barely get in the door, and after 30 minutes of talking to them, I'm ready to put them at the top of the rank list. The reverse of this is true as well. I've seen a number of people with incredible scores, grades, research, and recommendations who after 30 minutes of interviewing, it is clear that they are arrogant, are casting their nets broadly, and can't be bothered with the interview. We've flat out not ranked people like this. Listen to this: we've kicked people with USMLEs >260 etc. out of our match because of the interview. In our department, it takes only one negative interview to sink someone.

The biggest mistakes I see in candidates are the following:
1. Not knowing anything about the department. People, one of the most common interview questions is "why do you want to come here?" How can you not research the institution before coming?
2. Not knowing any of your research.
3. Lack of eye contact
4. Personal hygiene (I've seen 5 o'clock shadows on men, etc.).
5. Bad mouthing other institutions. It's fair to say why some institutions have advantages over others, but it's in poor taste to frankly say how bad a program is. We have colleagues at some of these programs, colleagues we respect.
6. Not having anything to discuss outside of your work/school.
7. Not asking questions at the end of the interview. When I interviewed, I have a list of about 20 questions ready to fire off. One or two different for each interviewer. And if all your questions really are answered, ask something about the attending you are interviewing...something about research, or his/her career goals, how s/he manages work/life balance, etc.

-nb
 
How often do you folks see a candidate who is highly desirable on paper (high step score, grades, etc.) yet fails to impress during the actual interview?

Is it really that much more frequent? Reason I ask is because I hear things like it quite a lot and I always wonder how much of what I'm hearing is anecdotal versus a recurring trend?
 
The interview is critical. It is probably the single thing that sinks candidates when they get in the door.

It really is quite amazing what you can learn about an individual during an interview. I've seen plenty of candidates who (on paper) barely get in the door, and after 30 minutes of talking to them, I'm ready to put them at the top of the rank list. The reverse of this is true as well. I've seen a number of people with incredible scores, grades, research, and recommendations who after 30 minutes of interviewing, it is clear that they are arrogant, are casting their nets broadly, and can't be bothered with the interview. We've flat out not ranked people like this. Listen to this: we've kicked people with USMLEs >260 etc. out of our match because of the interview. In our department, it takes only one negative interview to sink someone.

The biggest mistakes I see in candidates are the following:
1. Not knowing anything about the department. People, one of the most common interview questions is "why do you want to come here?" How can you not research the institution before coming?
2. Not knowing any of your research.
3. Lack of eye contact
4. Personal hygiene (I've seen 5 o'clock shadows on men, etc.).
5. Bad mouthing other institutions. It's fair to say why some institutions have advantages over others, but it's in poor taste to frankly say how bad a program is. We have colleagues at some of these programs, colleagues we respect.
6. Not having anything to discuss outside of your work/school.
7. Not asking questions at the end of the interview. When I interviewed, I have a list of about 20 questions ready to fire off. One or two different for each interviewer. And if all your questions really are answered, ask something about the attending you are interviewing...something about research, or his/her career goals, how s/he manages work/life balance, etc.

-nb
I understand the need for interview to gain information that can't be obtained from application. However, I think it is important to keep in mind that this is a very short and very stressful encounter for many students. People don't always behave in their usual way in the interview. I understand that argument re well rounded personality but on some level it reminds me of the "who would you rather have beer with" argument when it comes to political elections. We don't elect presidents to have beer with and we should select residents for their potential to contribute to the specialty. Past performance is the best predictor of future performance and a few minutes of face to face contact should not invalidate lifetime of hard work.

Also, I spent years in medical training on 3 continents and frankly could never understand the rationale for giving preference to people with athletic or some other unrelated achievement when it comes to academic admissions in US.
 
Past performance is the best predictor of future performance and a few minutes of face to face contact should not invalidate lifetime of hard work.

Please, don't be so melodramatic. A lifetime of work?

Now, past performance on what? Are you speaking from a standpoint of experience? Or, are you relaying to us something more definitive? Tell me, what precisely are the indicators that predict successful residency performance? How about an even more interesting question: What indicators predict a successful surgeon? (I suppose your hard work under the light with your biochem text has improved your binocular vision and hand-eye coordination and your management skills.)

Frankly, being a successful resident and a successful physician isn't about something so lofty as how academic you are. No, I'm sorry, it's a lot more about time management, people skills, problem solving, dealing with stress and emotion, knowing what's ethical, how to respect ones dignity, honesty, and getting dirt under your fingernails. Stuff you don't find in the library, son.

Also, I spent years in medical training on 3 continents and frankly could never understand the rationale for giving preference to people with athletic or some other unrelated achievement when it comes to academic admissions in US.

Ironically, I'd rather work with a resident who will drink a beer with me than one who can tell me the Krebs cycle...
 
Please, don't be so melodramatic. A lifetime of work?

Maybe a poor choice of words but some of us are older than the others.

Now, past performance on what? Are you speaking from a standpoint of experience? Or, are you relaying to us something more definitive? Tell me, what precisely are the indicators that predict successful residency performance? How about an even more interesting question: What indicators predict a successful surgeon? (I suppose your hard work under the light with your biochem text has improved your binocular vision and hand-eye coordination and your management skills.)

This depends on your definition of successful. If the goal is to produce academicians, publication record (and I don't mean case reports/series) is a pretty good predictor of future success. Nothing is absolute of course.

Frankly, being a successful resident and a successful physician isn't about something so lofty as how academic you are. No, I'm sorry, it's a lot more about time management, people skills, problem solving, dealing with stress and emotion, knowing what's ethical, how to respect ones dignity, honesty, and getting dirt under your fingernails. Stuff you don't find in the library, son.

I agree completely (although nobody called me son in 20 years). My point was that it is nearly impossible to get accurate impression in 10 min. Some people are "great interviewers" and completely lack integrity (and yes, I have interviewed applicants for jobs before). Our first impressions are not always correct ones (my wife and I did not like each other at first, we've been happily married for over 15 years). I am not saying interview should not matter but it should not be maker or breaker either.

Ironically, I'd rather work with a resident who will drink a beer with me than one who can tell me the Krebs cycle...

I probably would too
 
Sorry, I did not insert my replies correctly, they are between original lines.
 
Agreed on all fronts. This is my first year interviewing applicants and there were definitely some that were big surprises - both positively and negatively. Once you're in the door for an interview, we look at everyone as equals and there are several things we look for. First and foremost for me is "can I tolerate working with this person for 5 years?" Understandably, nerves come into play but I think you can tell an interviewee who is nervous from someone who is just plain odd. Most important for the interviewee is to prepare for the interviews, have some answers to common questions scripted but not memorized (we can tell you are regurgitating something), and research the institution and the people who will be interviewing you. If you come in prepared, answer truthfully, and act like a normal person you will do fine.
 
7. Not asking questions at the end of the interview. When I interviewed, I have a list of about 20 questions ready to fire off. One or two different for each interviewer. And if all your questions really are answered, ask something about the attending you are interviewing...something about research, or his/her career goals, how s/he manages work/life balance, etc.

While I agree its important to have an appropriate level of interest in the program you are interviewing at... I really think the whole "do you have any questions for me?" angle is wayyyyy overworked. I had my few set questions for each interview to fill time, but I didn't care about the answers. By the time I got through 2 hours of presentations, a handful of hours with the residents, the tour, and the dozen or so interviews before you, I was really out of true, honest questions. I'd ask people personal questions, like you said, more to make conversation than any intellectual curiosity.

By my last few interviews, if it was an interview towards the end of the day, I'd simply say "you know, I could make up a question just because, but I won't do that to you because I realize it's been a long day. I've been through over a dozen interviews so I know what I want to know about a residency, your program has been wonderful about answering all of my burning questions, and I appreciate that." Nearly unanimously, faculty appreciated me "letting them off the hook" that way.
 
I understand the need for interview to gain information that can't be obtained from application. However, I think it is important to keep in mind that this is a very short and very stressful encounter for many students. People don't always behave in their usual way in the interview.

One of the exact reasons why the interview is key. I have seen interviewees who have absolutely rocked their paperwork. They look like they literally could give Einstein a run for his money. I've seen that same kid admitted to the program, trained like everyone else, and repetitively flounder with the practicality of it. You want to talk about stress? Try knowing that on your first night of call as an ENT resident, you are now THE airway expert for your hospital(s) being covered. This same Einstein who so very impressed me with his ability to recall every nuance of Cummings allowed a man to have hypoxic brain injury because he couldn't work through an algorithm on a patient whose trach became dislodged in the ICU. As an R4 he froze (again--this wasn't his first time), and the R2 had to push him out of the way and intubate because he was so focused on inserting the trach and kept getting a false passage. In an unstressed situation, he could name 150 ways to get an airway on this same patient, but under stress he hurt someone.

You may think that an extreme example, but it's not, this was repetitive and became a pattern in a significant number of the "elite paperwork" residents who didn't interview as well.

I understand that argument re well rounded personality but on some level it reminds me of the "who would you rather have beer with" argument when it comes to political elections. We don't elect presidents to have beer with and we should select residents for their potential to contribute to the specialty. Past performance is the best predictor of future performance and a few minutes of face to face contact should not invalidate lifetime of hard work.

Geez, no one's invalidating anyone's work. But I can tell you it has become easier over the years of interviewing to know who you're going to work well with and who you won't, who will be fun to work with and who won't, and who can handle themselves and who can't. I've been wrong in interviews before and have been surprised in both directions, but less so now than when I was first out.

"Past performance" academically (especially when comparing the candidate with a Step I of 245 vs the one with a 230) has about zero relevance to working a 16 hour free flap while simultaneously managing questions from the jr residents about patients on the floor while handling the stress of your sick child at home with your wife who's frustrated your not home for dinner again.

Also, I spent years in medical training on 3 continents and frankly could never understand the rationale for giving preference to people with athletic or some other unrelated achievement when it comes to academic admissions in US.

Are you kidding? How about because the guy with great numbers might only have great numbers and nothing else because he didn't have the skill set to do anything else.

I guarantee you after doing interviews for the last 10 years that the person with some nonacademic, but nevertheless impressive, achievement is far more interesting to talk to than the person without.

I played division I golf in college and had the opportunity to play against Mickelson when I was a freshman and Tiger when I was a senior. I found it weird at the time I was interviewing that this was the only thing 50%+ of my interviewers wanted to talk about. At all. Most who were into hearing about it didn't ask a single thing about my scores or research or grades on rotations. They asked me to tell stories about golf, about what I thought about my school's chairman, about performance-enhancing drugs in college, etc.

I know why now. And until you're there interviewing, you may not ever understand it.
 
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