PSA from a practicing dentist: Many of todays dental students will never pay back their loans

[DentalPSA]

I have been practicing as a dentist in the bay area for the past 7 years. When I went to dental school at UCSF, the total cost of attendance was a fraction of what it is today. This cycle my cousin is applying to dental school, so I have been doing some digging into the current costs. I am dumbfounded.

This is a public service announcement: Paying back your loans may be next to impossible. Don't go to dental school without first taking a serious look at your finances, and calculating the total cost of attendance for your 4 years, as well as cost over a minimum 10 years of repayment. To do this, you must include interest as it accrues. Don't use the online FinAid calculator, and don't pay attention to the numbers posted by your dream school. GRAD SCHOOLS DO NOT INCLUDE INTEREST when reporting the average debt of their students.

As an example, I will look at Penn, inarguably one of the most sought after dental schools in the nation.
Cost of attendance (COA) for the first year is estimated at $107,764, including tuition, fees, and room/board. Some of you will say "I can life frugally and pay less for room and board", so for your sake I will make it $104,000 total cost for year 1
-- I will include a 4% tuition increase and 2.5% cost of living (COL) increase each year (following, or actually undershooting, current trends)
-- The current Stafford loan interest rate for grad students is 6.21%. For GradPLUS loans it is 7.21%. Of note - interest rates are now tied to the treasury yield. The formula is for Stafford is Treasury yield + 3.6% (capped at 9.5% interest), for GradPLUS is Treasury yield + 4.6% (capped at 10.5% interest). I would be happy to explain in detail if you are interested, but long story short- if you are going to dental school next year, interest rates will not be going down while you are a student, and will likely creep up. For our calculations, I will use the current rates of 6.21 and 7.21% for all 4 years.
-- You can take out $40,500 per year of Stafford loans. The remaining $60,000 or so will be GradPLUS
-- I am applying interest in the exact way it will be applied to you - from the moment you take out the loan, NOT when you graduate.
-- Including a ~1% origination fee for stafford loans and ~4.3% origination fee for GradPLUS loans (current rate).

Ok, so crunching the numbers... If you service your COA with federal loans, and using all of the (conservative) guidelines/estimates outlined above, your total loans at time of repayment (ie 6 months after you graduate) would be $541,089 from Penn

Over a 10 year payment period:
--$2035 per month to Stafford loans, $4214 per month to GradPLUS
--Total $6248 per month for 10 years
--Total of all payments: $749,803 ($208,714 interest)

Over the 25 year payment period:
--$1193 per month to Stafford loans, $2590 per month to GradPLUS
--Total $3783 per month for 25 years
--Total of all payments: $1,134,802 (593,713 interest)

As of now, if you do Pay as you Earn (PAYE), which is an incredible deal, then after 20 years your loans are forgiven. however, you still need to pay taxes on the remaining loan balance, which in this scenario would be an unfathomable amount, and may result in bankruptcy.

Anyways, sorry to be a debbie downer. If you know all of the above and still want to take out full loans for dental school, at least you know what you are getting yourself into. It is certainly possible to pay that kind of money with a good job, you just better love what you do!!

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[Weakfart]

There was always a thread on this like a few days back. Pretty much touched on all of this, thanks for the information though.

 

[DentalPSA]

There was always a thread on this like a few days back. Pretty much touched on all of this, thanks for the information though.

Great! Glad this is being talked about. I have never used this website before, but did try searching before posting and only saw things from a few years ago that were... weirdly optimistic. Are people still applying to dental schools with the intention of paying only with loans? Or is it mostly military people and wealthy families? Very confusing to me.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

Great! Glad this is being talked about. I have never used this website before, but did try searching before posting and only saw things from a few years ago that were... weirdly optimistic. Are people still applying to dental schools with the intention of paying only with loans? Or is it mostly military people and wealthy families? Very confusing to me.

Amazing post! I did one a few days ago for various scenarios of loan repayment titled "Read before applying to private schools". Unfortunately majority of students in private schools are going 100% with loans. What makes things worse is a good portion of these students have entered via the masters programs of that school. These are expensive programs where tuition is close to 30k a year so it actually makes your 550k figure conservative, considering interest on the 30k starts from day one.

 

[Weakfart]

Great! Glad this is being talked about. I have never used this website before, but did try searching before posting and only saw things from a few years ago that were... weirdly optimistic. Are people still applying to dental schools with the intention of paying only with loans? Or is it mostly military people and wealthy families? Very confusing to me.

I think most people are optimistic, almost anyone I know going to grad/professional school have no CLUE about the finances they will have to take on later in life. I've calculated for them how the loan repayment would work and stuff and after that they just give me a stare of anger. I honestly don't think most students (pre-health or otherwise) want to think about these debts. It's unfortunate how much things are going to cost and I am completely opposed to the prices of dental schools, let alone how they are rising every year.

Oh and this is the thread relevant to your topic:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/read-before-applying-to-private-schools.1107045/

 

[xerxes106]

I think most people realize the crazy amounts of loans they'll have to take out, yet it's still an extremely competitive field. Medicine included. There's got to be a reason for that. I'm not saying that the student loans are fine, but I don't think they're "as bad" as these numbers make them out to be. I've never met a young doctor or dentist who complained that the loans were ruining their life.......

 

[2THDDS]

Ive been wondering, why is med school a lot cheaper than dent school? Do they get more state and federal funds to make it affordable?

 

[Weakfart]

Ive been wondering, why is med school a lot cheaper than dent school? Do they get more state and federal funds to make it affordable?

When you get into the clinical years, medical schools often have a hospital or an associated hospital to put their students in. Dental schools on the other hand have clinics in the schools themselves so that may be why.

 

[DentalPSA]

I think most people realize the crazy amounts of loans they'll have to take out, yet it's still an extremely competitive field. Medicine included. There's got to be a reason for that. I'm not saying that the student loans are fine, but I don't think they're "as bad" as these numbers make them out to be. I've never met a young doctor or dentist who complained that the loans were ruining their life.......

A valid point, but the past 5 years has led to an unprecedented spike in tuition and fees. It really is incredible.
I graduated dental school with $92,000 in debts, and I was financed almost entirely with loans, at a STATE school. 7 years later I am at a great job, have 2 kids, loans for my new practice, mortgage and driving the same car I bought in college. I am on target to pay off my student loans in 3 years, but hell it has not been easy. And I still have mortgage and practice loans to pay. I would literally be unable to have a family OR house if I had 6 TIMES as many loans.

Mark my words - 4 years from now this forum will be absolutely filled with dental grads who are completely crippled by their loan burden.

 

[Incis0r]

THANK YOU for this. Seriously SDN community, you are all awesome.

 

[SM555]

I think most people realize the crazy amounts of loans they'll have to take out, yet it's still an extremely competitive field. Medicine included. There's got to be a reason for that. I'm not saying that the student loans are fine, but I don't think they're "as bad" as these numbers make them out to be. I've never met a young doctor or dentist who complained that the loans were ruining their life.......

That's because 10 years ago student loan interest was like 0.8%

 

[getintodentalschool]

better than getting a job at mcd flipping burgers for the rest of my life

 

[Silent Cool]

I have been practicing as a dentist in the bay area for the past 7 years. When I went to dental school at UCSF, the total cost of attendance was a fraction of what it is today. This cycle my cousin is applying to dental school, so I have been doing some digging into the current costs. I am dumbfounded.

This is a public service announcement: Paying back your loans may be next to impossible. Don't go to dental school without first taking a serious look at your finances, and calculating the total cost of attendance for your 4 years, as well as cost over a minimum 10 years of repayment. To do this, you must include interest as it accrues. Don't use the online FinAid calculator, and don't pay attention to the numbers posted by your dream school. GRAD SCHOOLS DO NOT INCLUDE INTEREST when reporting the average debt of their students.

As an example, I will look at Penn, inarguably one of the most sought after dental schools in the nation.
Cost of attendance (COA) for the first year is estimated at $107,764, including tuition, fees, and room/board. Some of you will say "I can life frugally and pay less for room and board", so for your sake I will make it $104,000 total cost for year 1
-- I will include a 4% tuition increase and 2.5% cost of living (COL) increase each year (following, or actually undershooting, current trends)
-- The current Stafford loan interest rate for grad students is 6.21%. For GradPLUS loans it is 7.21%. Of note - interest rates are now tied to the treasury yield. The formula is for Stafford is Treasury yield + 3.6% (capped at 9.5% interest), for GradPLUS is Treasury yield + 4.6% (capped at 10.5% interest). I would be happy to explain in detail if you are interested, but long story short- if you are going to dental school next year, interest rates will not be going down while you are a student, and will likely creep up. For our calculations, I will use the current rates of 6.21 and 7.21% for all 4 years.
-- You can take out $40,500 per year of Stafford loans. The remaining $60,000 or so will be GradPLUS
-- I am applying interest in the exact way it will be applied to you - from the moment you take out the loan, NOT when you graduate.
-- Including a ~1% origination fee for stafford loans and ~4.3% origination fee for GradPLUS loans (current rate).

Ok, so crunching the numbers... If you service your COA with federal loans, and using all of the (conservative) guidelines/estimates outlined above, your total loans at time of repayment (ie 6 months after you graduate) would be $541,089 from Penn

Over a 10 year payment period:
--$2035 per month to Stafford loans, $4214 per month to GradPLUS
--Total $6248 per month for 10 years
--Total of all payments: $749,803 ($208,714 interest)

Over the 25 year payment period:
--$1193 per month to Stafford loans, $2590 per month to GradPLUS
--Total $3783 per month for 25 years
--Total of all payments: $1,134,802 (593,713 interest)

As of now, if you do Pay as you Earn (PAYE), which is an incredible deal, then after 20 years your loans are forgiven. however, you still need to pay taxes on the remaining loan balance, which in this scenario would be an unfathomable amount, and may result in bankruptcy.

Anyways, sorry to be a debbie downer. If you know all of the above and still want to take out full loans for dental school, at least you know what you are getting yourself into. It is certainly possible to pay that kind of money with a good job, you just better love what you do!!

Excellent post, and thank you for re-affirming what I have been saying regarding interest accumulation and the published "average" debt.

Do you think that specializing is a good idea to earn more money? Or is that a false notion?
Also, would you pay for specialty training? UPENN, for instance, charges an extra 220K for its ortho and endo programs, as does UOP.

thanx

 

[Weakfart]

A valid point, but the past 5 years has led to an unprecedented spike in tuition and fees. It really is incredible.
I graduated dental school with $92,000 in debts, and I was financed almost entirely with loans, at a STATE school. 7 years later I am at a great job, have 2 kids, loans for my new practice, mortgage and driving the same car I bought in college. I am on target to pay off my student loans in 3 years, but hell it has not been easy. And I still have mortgage and practice loans to pay. I would literally be unable to have a family OR house if I had 6 TIMES as many loans.

Mark my words - 4 years from now this forum will be absolutely filled with dental grads who are completely crippled by their loan burden.

My dentist I shadowed pretty much said most future dentist are either gonna have to do government work or military work to get rid of their debt

 

[y3nd0]

@DentalPSA Do you have any say on students who are attending a state school, with around $250K loans? Obviously monthly payments are less (I calculated - less than $3,000 for 10 year repayment). I've seen countless threads on why attending a private school is like shooting yourself in the leg, but have not seen any thread on attending a state school. Just curious to see if there is any of the same backlash for attending school and leaving with $250K debt.

 

[SM555]

better than getting a job at mcd flipping burgers for the rest of my life

You may have said this sarcastically but from my calculations, you can buy more with your $7.25 minimum wage than you can with -$500,000

 

[UCSFx2017]

If you don't know how to calculate accrued interest with the multiple payment options with federal loans, try using this excellent tool which gives you a very detailed payment schema of your loan repayment options. It factors in loan burden, estimated salary, payment plans (IBR), and payment duration. It tells you monthly payment amount, accrued interest, and total payment.

https://services.aamc.org/30/first/home/organizer#.VGUnBfnF9EI

https://services.aamc.org/30/first/home/calculatorinput

I mentioned this resource in multiple other threads. It used to have a kink in the calculator by forcing you to factor in residency. This posed a problem for us because in dentistry, residency is not mandatory. After emailing them over a year ago, they've finally removed that option and now the dental community can finally use it with no problems.

 

[DentalPSA]

Excellent post, and thank you for re-affirming what I have been saying regarding interest accumulation and the published "average" debt.

Do you think that specializing is a good idea to earn more money? Or is that a false notion?
Also, would you pay for specialty training? UPENN, for instance, charges an extra 220K for its ortho and endo programs, as does UOP.

thanx

You would need to look into employment opportunities for specialty physicians in the area that you intend to practice. I know that there is significant variability depending on region. And there are plenty of general dentists that make a great income, it just tough to imagine starting out in any field with over a half million in debt. Back when I was applying there was a lot of hesitancy and concern about "too much debt". The current rates are simply insurmountable without either family money paying the way or a ton of luck with your first jobs.

Unfortunately since I am a generalist, I am not the best person to ask about specialties. However, if I had made the mistake of having 550k at time of repayment, I would think real hard about adding an additional 200K and letting interest accrue further at 7%.

I am by no means trying to say never be a dentist. Just look hard at what the situation is, and make an educated decision rather than kicking yourself in 4 years.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

@DentalPSA Do you have any say on students who are attending a state school, with around $250K loans? Obviously monthly payments are less (I calculated - less than $3,000 for 10 year repayment). I've seen countless threads on why attending a private school is like shooting yourself in the leg, but have not seen any thread on attending a state school. Just curious to see if there is any of the same backlash for attending school and leaving with $250K debt.

On dentaltown, the consensus seems to be that 250k is the cut off where any much more after that would not be financially worth it for the average dentist.

 

[UCSFx2017]

Let me confirm what OP basically already outlined for all you skeptics.

UPenn's fixed costs are: $68,279 (tuition) + $2,586 (general fees) + $9,712 (instrument management service) + $677 (technology fee) + $607 (clinic fee) = $81,860. $81,860* is the absolute minimum amount of dollars that you will borrow for the first year in order to attend UPenn dental school.


For many schools, the most you can borrow for federal Unsubsidized Loans is around $44,000 at 6.21% interest. The remaining loan must be federal GradPLUS loans ($81,860 - $44,000 = $37,860) with an interest at 7.21% interest.*

* This excludes the one time 4.288% origination fee for GradPLUS loans and 1.072% origination fee for federal unsubsidized loans.

**Do not be fooled into thinking that this schema makes IBR or PAYE an attractive repayment option. This calculator does not take into account the taxes that incur past year 20 of your loan forgiveness. IBR and PAYE was designed to help low income earners with a high debt load. It can actually, and usually does, hurt people in the high income bracket.

http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2013/income_based_repayment_is_one_sick_puppy-90702

 

[Silent Cool]

On dentaltown, the consensus seems to be that 250k is the cut off where any much more after that would not be financially worth it for the average dentist.

Yes, I posted a response from a dentist I contacted on dentaltown on a different SDN thread and dthis is what he said. He and his business partner agreed that 250K is the max. He also said that he would never pay for a specialty program.

 

[DentalPSA]

@DentalPSA Do you have any say on students who are attending a state school, with around $250K loans? Obviously monthly payments are less (I calculated - less than $3,000 for 10 year repayment). I've seen countless threads on why attending a private school is like shooting yourself in the leg, but have not seen any thread on attending a state school. Just curious to see if there is any of the same backlash for attending school and leaving with $250K debt.

I would first double check your math. For my cousin I calculated his loan-financed debt if he were to attend UCSF (in-state) to be just about $400,000 on the nose. That's a little over 4600 per month for 10 years, or about 2800 per month for 25 years. If you take the later route, thats still over 450k of interest alone.

And this is using the numbers published by UCSF, which allows like 1200 per month for housing. That buys you a bedroom in a 4 or 5 bedroom house in SF.

Now, if you are talking about U of Iowa, IN STATE- looking at their budget for 2014-2015 and adding on a meager 14,600 total for all living expenses (room, food, etc) - which was their recommended and sounds reasonable - your debt at time of repayment is still $313,000. 10 year repayment- 3600 per month; 25 year repayment- 2163 per month (which is >330k of interest).

Now, if you truly have a debt load of 250k at time of repayment, you will still have an average interest rate of at least 7%, and it will NOT be easy to pay off. However, 250k is more than twice as easy to manage as 500k, no doubt. But 250k will hang over your head like a nausea-inducing stomach punch for at least 10 years.

I love being a dentist. Just make sure you know what you are getting yourself into financially before taking the plunge. And talk to CURRENT 4th year dental students, or first year post grads. Don't talk to some dude who is 15 years out, its a different world now

 

[y3nd0]

On dentaltown, the consensus seems to be that 250k is the cut off where any much more after that would not be financially worth it for the average dentist.

Thank you for that. I've been browsing on DT only for a short time and have not come across that comment yet.

@DentalPSA I am only a first year dental student, so I have not included the rise in tuition and rise in interest rates in my calculations. However, I based my calculations off the amount of loans I have and will be taking out my first year. I guess I have a bit more going for me in terms of loans because I come from a low income family.

(EDIT: Put too much information. Long story short - yes, I do think I can keep my loans under 300K if I keep doing what I'm doing).

I have been concerned considerably about the about of debt I will be in, however, I do think I have chosen a career that I will enjoy. I'm hoping that with the help of a spouse (no children) in an urban area, that I'll be able to tackle this debt without feeling like I chose the wrong profession.

 

[2THDDS]

When you get into the clinical years, medical schools often have a hospital or an associated hospital to put their students in. Dental schools on the other hand have clinics in the schools themselves so that may be why.

that doesn't really explain it, because if they have their own clinic, even though there are operating costs, but wouldn't they still have revenue / profit from patients getting treated by 3rd and 4th years?

 

[Weakfart]

that doesn't really explain it, because if they have their own clinic, even though there are operating costs, but wouldn't they still have revenue / profit from patients getting treated by 3rd and 4th years?

They normally change a fraction of what they do at the clinics (like half or a third). Not to mention D3 and D4 students are going to be slower than a practicing dentist so you have also less output of production. On top of that, D schools need to purchase ALL the equipment so there is that cost. M schools don't have to worry about the cost of equipment since students go to the hospital. Not saying its right for the price difference to be significant between the schools but it gives it some justification.

 

[SCDP]

It's ridiculous how expensive Dental School can be for those who don't have a public state school. Like for me in my state, total cost of med school education would be about 28k a year, whereas dental school would be 45k for tuition, JUST TUITION... not all the other garbage fees, total cost of education would be like 50-60k depending on the year. It's like 110k vs 200-240k in terms of med and dental school....

But of course screw medicine.

 

[hopefuldentistry]

The people who say it's either go to dental school or flip burgers at mcd's or work at a crap job are silly. The type of people who get into dental school are very smart and usually have very high gpa's. These high gpa's can not only be used for dental school but they can be used for getting into med school, physician assistant school, or going straight into a job after college. Point being it's not like you either go to dental school or work at some miserable job, there are other financially rewarding careers out there for pre-dents.

 

[KineticFlow603]

This is exactly why I only applied to my two state schools. I will be in 160k-200k in debt by the time I graduate. It is still a great deal of money, but it is a whole lot less than going out of state or going to a private school.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

This is exactly why I only applied to my two state schools. I will be in 160k-200k in debt by the time I graduate. It is still a great deal of money, but it is a whole lot less than going out of state or going to a private school.

We have a winner! There are only 3 options today: military, state school or parents helping out.

 

[SCDP]

Also screw Texas, I wish I was a Texas resident, it's like impossible to get into Texas schools out of state

Like even if you don't factor the tuition, I would love to live in Texas

 

[deleted390966]

Over a 10 year payment period:
--$2035 per month to Stafford loans, $4214 per month to GradPLUS
--Total $6248 per month for 10 years
--Total of all payments: $749,803 ($208,714 interest)

Over the 25 year payment period:
--$1193 per month to Stafford loans, $2590 per month to GradPLUS
--Total $3783 per month for 25 years
--Total of all payments: $1,134,802 (593,713 interest)

I think the majority of dentists will finish paying their loans within the first 5 years.

 

[Thetoothhurts91]

I would first double check your math. For my cousin I calculated his loan-financed debt if he were to attend UCSF (in-state) to be just about $400,000 on the nose. That's a little over 4600 per month for 10 years, or about 2800 per month for 25 years. If you take the later route, thats still over 450k of interest alone.

And this is using the numbers published by UCSF, which allows like 1200 per month for housing. That buys you a bedroom in a 4 or 5 bedroom house in SF.

Now, if you are talking about U of Iowa, IN STATE- looking at their budget for 2014-2015 and adding on a meager 14,600 total for all living expenses (room, food, etc) - which was their recommended and sounds reasonable - your debt at time of repayment is still $313,000. 10 year repayment- 3600 per month; 25 year repayment- 2163 per month (which is >330k of interest).

Now, if you truly have a debt load of 250k at time of repayment, you will still have an average interest rate of at least 7%, and it will NOT be easy to pay off. However, 250k is more than twice as easy to manage as 500k, no doubt. But 250k will hang over your head like a nausea-inducing stomach punch for at least 10 years.

I love being a dentist. Just make sure you know what you are getting yourself into financially before taking the plunge. And talk to CURRENT 4th year dental students, or first year post grads. Don't talk to some dude who is 15 years out, its a different world now

I interviewed at Iowa (OOS) and hope I can at least get a merit scholarship to lower the cost. As someone without an ISS that I can apply to, my options are very limited.

 

[StumpMT]

I think the majority of dentists will finish paying their loans within the first 5 years.

How would they do that? By living on Ramen?

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

I think the majority of dentists will finish paying their loans within the first 5 years.

THIS.

Is the mentality of most students at the private school that I go to. They believe they can pay off 400k in less than 5 years. Then you ask them what monthly payment they require to do this and they don't know.

Sorry for singling you out but a lot of pre-dental students today are lemmings running off a cliff.

 

[SCDP]

How would they do that? By living on Ramen?

Not on only ramen, but in ramen. Styrofoam homes FTW

 

[y3nd0]

I think the majority of dentists will finish paying their loans within the first 5 years.

I think that was a sarcastic/troll comment. Has to be. But it is true that some uninformed pre-dents/dent students think that a $150,000 salary right out of school will enable them to pay off their loans right away. ("Dude, we'll be making 150K when we get out. We can pay off our loans in 4 years").

 

[Daneosaurus]

So what's the answer - don't go to dental school? That doesn't really seem prudent either.

 

[customx]

There is no single answer. Look into the military, NHSC, or other options. Try to limit the amount of loans you take out, and after you graduate, work on paying them off asap. The info on Dental Town is very informative

 

[Silent Cool]

Let's do a breakdown.

First three years: you average 130K--no benefits.

That leaves you with approximately 90-95K. You cover your malp, health, etc..., some of which is tax-deductible because you would be a 1099.

You owe 500K.

20-year payback is 50K per year (roughly).

Now you have 45K--probably less, actually, because you had to pay for the aforementioned benefits.

You should also be saving for retirement.

Let's ball-park it at 30-40K left over.

Now, you buy a practice.

You net 240K and owe 425K for a practice.

Let's say you are on a 10-year practice note.

240K-50K = 190K
Taxes --> ~118K
Student loan deduction of 50K: 65-70K

Not terrible, but not great either.

Also consider that many dentists do not net 240K. The ones that do are probably in a rural area and have a lot of experience.

 

[arkenstone]

I understand that most pre-dental people don't understand how heavy the debt burden really is. I also understand that more experience dentists can see just how much worse things have gotten.

But I think the direness in these threads is a bit overstated. A reasonable worst-case-scenario---550k in debt and making 125k till the day you die---boils down to the following take-home reality. You make minimum wage for 4 years while studying relatively interesting stuff around other smart people. Then for the next ten years you make $50,000 working 30-40 hours a week, normal business hours. The for the rest of your life it's approaching $100,000 take home.

Even for that poorly planned route, if you offered that guaranteed path to the average American you'd have people lining up around the corner for a chance.

Yes, there are some wayward kids taking on too much debt. And it's unfortunate that entering a career that emphasizes service to other human being first involves a debt hurdle that responds so strongly to simple supply and demand. But it also reflects poorly on dentists that still having above average income, way above average time off, and waaaay above average job security inspires comments like "you better love what you do." Let's keep some perspective. That phrase belongs to social workers, high school teachers, etc.

 

[Weakfart]

I understand that most pre-dental people don't understand how heavy the debt burden really is. I also understand that more experience dentists can see just how much worse things have gotten.

But I think the direness in these threads is a bit overstated. A reasonable worst-case-scenario---550k in debt and making 125k till the day you die---boils down to the following take-home reality. You make minimum wage for 4 years while studying relatively interesting stuff around other smart people. Then for the next ten years you make $50,000 working 30-40 hours a week, normal business hours. The for the rest of your life it's approaching $100,000 take home.

Even for that poorly planned route, if you offered that guaranteed path to the average American you'd have people lining up around the corner for a chance.

Yes, there are some wayward kids taking on too much debt. And it's unfortunate that entering a career that emphasizes service to other human being first involves a debt hurdle that responds so strongly to simple supply and demand. But it also reflects poorly on dentists that still having above average income, way above average time off, and waaaay above average job security inspires comments like "you better love what you do." Let's keep some perspective. That phrase belongs to social workers, high school teachers, etc.

I think another aspect of how current pre-dents are perceiving debt is due to already established Dentist. We see recent graduated dentist being able to live off their wage and are fine. Unfortunately, our fate might not be so clear cut, like others have echoed, tuition is changing and current dentist have not seen this change and the outcome of it all is uncertain. We don't know how this huge debt will affect us because we haven't seen any dentists with this kind of debt yet. I really hope the tuition plateaus out in the next decade or there will be hell to pay.

 

[gatsby121]

So what's the answer - don't go to dental school? That doesn't really seem prudent either.

The answer is for prospective dentists to readjust expectations. will you be able to pay off your loans eventually? yeah sure. will dentistry be as lucrative as you once thought with all the loans you carry? probably not. Will it still be a rewarding career that meets the needs of you and your family? absolutely.

 

[DentalPSA]

I understand that most pre-dental people don't understand how heavy the debt burden really is. I also understand that more experience dentists can see just how much worse things have gotten.

But I think the direness in these threads is a bit overstated. A reasonable worst-case-scenario---550k in debt and making 125k till the day you die---boils down to the following take-home reality. You make minimum wage for 4 years while studying relatively interesting stuff around other smart people. Then for the next ten years you make $50,000 working 30-40 hours a week, normal business hours. The for the rest of your life it's approaching $100,000 take home.

Even for that poorly planned route, if you offered that guaranteed path to the average American you'd have people lining up around the corner for a chance.

Yes, there are some wayward kids taking on too much debt. And it's unfortunate that entering a career that emphasizes service to other human being first involves a debt hurdle that responds so strongly to simple supply and demand. But it also reflects poorly on dentists that still having above average income, way above average time off, and waaaay above average job security inspires comments like "you better love what you do." Let's keep some perspective. That phrase belongs to social workers, high school teachers, etc.

Where are you in your dental career? Pre-dental? Student? Graduate?

Of course dental school- studying around other smart people- is a great way to spend your time. I am in no way saying people should never go to dental school. Many students apply to dental school with an idea that they will be living comfortably. As somebody in the real world who has been through all of this, 550k in non-dischargeable education debt and making 125k a year is a guarantee that you will not be living very comfortably for at least the first 15 years of your career. You will live like you are making 40k per year. Which is about what teachers and social workers make. What if you want to buy a practice? Or get a loan for a house? Or get married? Or have a child? Or if you get sick?

So...as I said... you better love what you do.

 

[DentalPSA]

I think the majority of dentists will finish paying their loans within the first 5 years.

I'll play along, using the Penn example I started with
--Salary: 200k per year with FULL benefits, 6% retirement matching, 3 weeks of vacation!!!
--Debt: 541k, Grace period: 2 months, Payment plan of 5 years, Bank account: 0 dollars
--Over a five year repayment plan, you owe: $10,713 per month
--With the above glorious situation, you are pulling in just about $11,000 per month after taxes.


Even with living alone, no significant other, no children, no purchase of practice, no travel vacations, no flying to friend's weddings or reunions, and no illnesses for 5 full years, it will take a minimum of 10 years

 

[Weakfart]

I'll play along, using the Penn example I started with
--Salary: 200k per year with FULL benefits, 6% retirement matching, 3 weeks of vacation!!!
--Debt: 541k, Grace period: 2 months, Payment plan of 5 years, Bank account: 0 dollars
--Over a five year repayment plan, you owe: $10,713 per month
--With the above glorious situation, you are pulling in just about $11,000 per month after taxes.


Even with living alone, no significant other, no children, no purchase of practice, no travel vacations, no flying to friend's weddings or reunions, and no illnesses for 5 full years, it will take a minimum of 10 years

You forgot to cut out other costs. I don't need electricity, expensive food (Top ramen all day), a real home (homeless shelters), internet (sit outside a mcdonalds), etc. So I will be saving a LOT of money. Can't believe you didn't take these things into account.

 

[DentureDog]

None of you are going to pay off $400.000 in five years.

That's big coin kids. Think about it long and hard, if you don't get into a state school, before paying some of these redonk prices......consider waiting a year or two and buy yourself a Tesla when you graduate.....

 

[Daneosaurus]

Are you guys seriously recommending not going to dental school at all if I only get I to an expensive school? Some of YOU have lost touch with reality.

 

[jeffity]

Are you guys seriously recommending not going to dental school at all if I only get I to an expensive school? Some of YOU have lost touch with reality.

As I read comments here and in the "READ before applying to Private Schools" thread,
I think people with state schools just forget/ignore the fact that not everyone has a state school.

 

[Daneosaurus]

I think people with state schools just forget/ignore the fact that not everyone has a state school.

Or is offered even an interview to their state school.

 

[cacajuate]

Are you guys seriously recommending not going to dental school at all if I only get I to an expensive school? Some of YOU have lost touch with reality.

Are you sure we have lost touch?

Numbers don't lie and you only hope that you will be on the good side of the bell curve on income or you are not ever to be living wealthy. Which I assume 95% of the people on here is the reason they want to be a dentist.