Psychiatrist Salary

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and can do pain fellowships (actually do them...) ?? If you are going to "state the facts" then at least state them correctly. For the record, psychiatrist can do (and actually do) the same fellowship as the anesthesiologists. The training is all the same. The odds aren't that bad - not a lot of psychiatrists apply.

My understanding is that pain fellowships were actually created by psychiatry, but ceded to other specialties, primarily Anesthesia. Some of the fellowships are Closed to psychiatrists, and some are very open to them. You may have to do a 3-month rotation to catch up on procedures. There has been supposedly a movement to bring more psychiatrists into the pain field, for obvious reasons.

Whether the number of psychiatrists in pain is large or small is irrelevant. It is a viable career path and for that n=1 of the individual making career decisions, it doesn't matter how many others there are. If you're good, you're good. If you're trained in it, you'll get work. All this "on average" BS may give you perspective on what "an average" psychiatrist makes and does, but shouldn't limit your vision as to what you can make and do as an "above average" psychiatrist.

Read my SIG, people.

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Pay for pain guys has been getting cut for years and now the CMS will be allowing reimbursement for CRNAs doing them. They'll be making more and more of the basic procedures (scopes, pain injections, etc.) available to be done by the mid-levels. They are also already passing rules that will be making it harder and harder for independent groups to survive and everyone is selling their practices to hospitals. Most people will be working for hospitals or gigantic ACOs and all the salaries will level out. The only way to make big money in medicine is by owning your own practice and equipment and those days are becoming a thing of the past. After this health care plan gets fully implemented everyone will be making between 200-300k. And psychiatrists will be making the bottom of that range, but it will all end up comparable on a per hour rate.

So again do what you like most. But in the short term neurologists have some extra bells and whistles where they can make more money, but I wouldn't expect that to last for too long.
 
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After this health care plan gets fully implemented everyone will be making between 200-300k. And psychiatrists will be making the bottom of that range, but it will all end up comparable on a per hour rate.

So again do what you like most. But in the short term neurologists have some extra bells and whistles where they can make more money, but I wouldn't expect that to last for too long.

I think a more likely range is going to be 140-300k.
 
Sleep is a similar story; the field was created by psychiatry, ceded to pulm, and now anesthesia is moving in.

Why all this "ceding" to other fields? Are we as psychiatrists just a bunch of pushovers?

On another note: since I always look to the future: any real possibility of a NEW ERA in psychiatry within the next 10 years, i.e. perhaps glutamate agonists? Anything revolutionary in our midst, on the precipice from those more in the know?
 
Why all this "ceding" to other fields? Are we as psychiatrists just a bunch of pushovers?

On another note: since I always look to the future: any real possibility of a NEW ERA in psychiatry within the next 10 years, i.e. perhaps glutamate agonists? Anything revolutionary in our midst, on the precipice from those more in the know?

Schizophrenogenic mothers will time travel through wormholes to the fifth dimension to save the dinosaurs from annihilation caused by their own Id.

The repercussions of this throughout space and time will raise the average starting psychiatrist's salary to the mid $500,000's.
 
I am going to take a risk and put my feelings in blunt terms. The basics of psychiatry (the knowledge it takes to pass board exams) are pretty limited in extent- about the same knowledge base it takes to understand one area of IM. For example, studying for the cardiology section of general IM boards/Maintenance of certification takes about as much time as studying for psychiatry boards (at least that's been my experience).
A psychiatrist who just knows the basics, does only med checks, and diagnoses everything as bipolar is a joke.
On the other hand, psychiatry is a difficult field to truly master. A psychiatrist who is seeking to always expand his knowledge and gain knowledge/skills in such areas as ECT, hypnosis, advanced psychotherapy, forensics, clinical research, etc can be a truly impressive physician.
On the other hand, I am impressed by pretty much all board-certified surgeons.

I don't consider myself a master psychiatrist, but I compensate with my knowledge of other areas of medicine (including sleep).

For all the med students out there interested in psych- only go into the field if you intend to be a great psychiatrist. Otherwise, go into an area like FM or IM.

I realize this is a bump.

Just curious about this idea. Why is it in medicine that we respect something based upon how much knowledge it requires? Is that because we are in an academic field?

In any other enterprise, mastering a simple skill set and being the best at it yields tons of rewards. If a psychiatrist runs a clinic doing med checks and diagnosing bipolar, but does that better than anyone in his city - what's wrong with that? He needs to do hypnosis, ECT, forensics, etc. to be a great psychiatrist? I've never understood this philosophy.
 
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I realize this is a bump.

Just curious about this idea. Why is it in medicine that we respect something based upon how much knowledge it requires? Is that because we are in an academic field?

In any other enterprise, mastering a simple skill set and being the best at it yields tons of rewards. If a psychiatrist runs a clinic doing med checks and diagnosing bipolar, but does that better than anyone in his city - what's wrong with that? He needs to do hypnosis, ECT, forensics, etc. to be a great psychiatrist? I've never understood this philosophy.

Because, frankly, med checks alone are a half-measure. When a psychiatrist (IMHO) can think about a patient from varied perspectives (not just a single formulation) and have varied strategies for intervening, they have a dramatically higher likelihood of improvement.

IMO, the mark of a great psychiatrist is not knowledge, nor just the application of knowledge, but the flexible application of that knowledge in conceptualizing and intervening with a patient, in the moment, and being able to shift strategy dramatically to a different approach. Plus having a broad arsenal to use.

Mastering meds, alone, will never make you a "great" psychiatrist. It might make you a great psychopharmacologist. I don't personally view those as being the same. I also believe, though, that a great psychiatrist should be an outstanding generalist, +/- areas of sub-specialization. Being great at a sub-specialty doesn't speak to being outstanding in the field as a whole.

When a nephrologist masters dialysis (mastery isn't really the right term), do they then become a "master" internist?
 
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Because, frankly, med checks alone are a half-measure. When a psychiatrist (IMHO) can think about a patient from varied perspectives (not just a single formulation) and have varied strategies for intervening, they have a dramatically higher likelihood of improvement.

IMO, the mark of a great psychiatrist is not knowledge, nor just the application of knowledge, but the flexible application of that knowledge in conceptualizing and intervening with a patient, in the moment, and being able to shift strategy dramatically to a different approach. Plus having a broad arsenal to use.

Mastering meds, alone, will never make you a "great" psychiatrist. It might make you a great psychopharmacologist. I don't personally view those as being the same. I also believe, though, that a great psychiatrist should be an outstanding generalist, +/- areas of sub-specialization. Being great at a sub-specialty doesn't speak to being outstanding in the field as a whole.

When a nephrologist masters dialysis (mastery isn't really the right term), do they then become a "master" internist?

I guess my thought is, what is the measuring stick?

Knowledge? Varied skill set? Difficulty to acquire those?

People you help?

I wasn't saying a doctor who does med checks is great, instead, how do we measure a good doctor? If a nephrologist had enough patients in NYC that he specifically did a kidney failure and dialysis clinic, and he helped tons of patients and they loved him- what does it matter if he doesn't do anything else? Surgery has gone this way. Many surgeons focus on only a few procedures and do them repeatedly.

I guess the heart of my question is how does each person define a quality physician. Results seem more important than knowledge base.
 
I think you're missing the point. someone diagnosing everyone as bipolar (without thought) isn't a good thing. Which was the example given. And 'medcheck' is a pretty derogatory term if you think about it. Psychiatry has allowed it to be reduced to the practice of the 'medcheck' and psychiatrists relegated to drug-pushers. I'm pretty sure this is only the case in the US. you would never describe any other doctor as doing 'med checks'.

To take your example, there is nothing wrong with someone specializing in bipolar disorder. But what separates psychiatrists (good ones at least) from other mental health specialists is the ability to formulate a case from multiple perspectives - biomedical, psychodynamic, cognitive, behavioral, systemic, sociocultural and use this to guide treatment and inform care. Psychiatric care should be about the continuous and ongoing assessment and formulation of the patient, about harnessing the therapeutic relationship, and utilize this to guide treatment, which could be primarily focused on pharmacological management, but is not a 'med check'.

For example a great psychiatrist who specialized in bipolar disorder, like a surgeon must first know when NOT to operate, should NOT be diagnosing everyone as bipolar, but have a firm grasp of the medical and neurological differential for mood disturbances and when to investigate further, as well as the psychiatric differential (which includes depression, substance induced syndromes, BPD, histrionic personality disorder, schizophrenia, pathological gambling, narcissistic personality disorder, and PTSD), but also be able to think about the patient from other perspectives e.g. do the oscillations in elation and depression really represent a deep ambivalence about sexuality and need to alterately express and repress libidinal drive? was elation a paradoxical grief reaction?, does the patient have a sense of hyperpositive self and hyperreactivity to negative emotional stimuli even when experiencing elevated mood?, is there a history of sexual trauma or neglect? how has the patient's sense of self been impacted by a parent with a severe mood disorder?, what cultural explanatory framework does the patient have?

whilst the psychiatrist may primarily focus on pharmacological intervention, and have expertise in 3rd, 4th and 5th line treatments and combinations, they will also have be familiar with substance abuse, borderline personality disorder and anxiety states which are highly comorbid in this population as well as assessment and management of suicide risk. they will be able to engage the patient (and possibly family) collaboratively in care, including discussion of risks and benefits of medication, prenatal counseling, discussion of heritable nature of bipolar. Further they may be able to use various therapeutic skills - such as enhancing motivation to take medication, exploring the meaning of treatment-resistance and emergence of multiple side-effects, education about sleep hygiene, development of relapse signature and coping strategies, working on distress tolerance, as well as being mindful to the social space in which the patient lives - there is no medication that prevents relapse when you experience severe life events, when your social support is no longer there, when you live in a family of high expressed emotion, and these need to be understood and recognized by the great psychiatrist.

Yeah anyone can be good and dishing out xanax and seroquel and bipolar diagnoses. But they are not great or even good psychiatrists. sadly, they are all too common, and great psychiatrists are in the minority.
 
Psychiatry has allowed it to be reduced to the practice of the 'medcheck' and psychiatrists relegated to drug-pushers.

I don't neccessarily buy this line of thinking....psychiatrists who do this make a choice to do this. And that's fine. But if they wanted to, they could make a choice to go in another direction, see far fewer patients, and make less money(ie not close to a physician level salary in many cases). It's not a choice we all like, but still a choice.
 
I don't neccessarily buy this line of thinking....psychiatrists who do this make a choice to do this. And that's fine. But if they wanted to, they could make a choice to go in another direction, see far fewer patients, and make less money(ie not close to a physician level salary in many cases). It's not a choice we all like, but still a choice.

Indeed, psychiatrists could choose to go in a different direction to the majority, but as long as the majority is doing med checks it is reasonable to describe this as being the trend within the field.
 
I don't neccessarily buy this line of thinking....psychiatrists who do this make a choice to do this. And that's fine. But if they wanted to, they could make a choice to go in another direction, see far fewer patients, and make less money(ie not close to a physician level salary in many cases). It's not a choice we all like, but still a choice.

All of medicine works likes this. Primary care says that 15 minutes isn't enough time to see patients but they have to do it to stay in business - i.e. they do 15 minute appts to earn more money.

Surgical specialties operate - often too much, why? Fee for service. Colonoscopies are done as much as possible? Why? Fee for service. America over treats all the time. I know GI and Urology docs who just scope every chance they can get - $$$$$. Psych isn't unique in letting reimbursements dictate how practice is run.
 
All of medicine works likes this. Primary care says that 15 minutes isn't enough time to see patients but they have to do it to stay in business - i.e. they do 15 minute appts to earn more money.

Surgical specialties operate - often too much, why? Fee for service. Colonoscopies are done as much as possible? Why? Fee for service. America over treats all the time. I know GI and Urology docs who just scope every chance they can get - $$$$$. Psych isn't unique in letting reimbursements dictate how practice is run.

Correct. I think it's hilarious when we trash on psychiatrists for doing 15 minute med checks when family docs and outpatient internists do the same thing but with insulin/antihypertensives/any other drug down the street and don't get a bad rap for just "handing out pills like candy." Are there lifestyle interventions that can affect diabetes/hypertension/metabolic syndrome? Absolutely. Are they compensated adequately? Nope. It's a problem across all of medicine, not just psychiatry. We need to change our incentives and our pay structure fundamentally before we see any changes in the behavior of our colleagues.
 
Correct. I think it's hilarious when we trash on psychiatrists for doing 15 minute med checks when family docs and outpatient internists do the same thing but with insulin/antihypertensives/any other drug down the street and don't get a bad rap for just "handing out pills like candy." Are there lifestyle interventions that can affect diabetes/hypertension/metabolic syndrome? Absolutely. Are they compensated adequately? Nope. It's a problem across all of medicine, not just psychiatry. We need to change our incentives and our pay structure fundamentally before we see any changes in the behavior of our colleagues.

It's funny, whenever I hear criticisms of specialties I always have to pause and think, how is that different from the rest of medicine? Your point is excellent. Obese hypertensive hyperlipidemic diabetic patients come in for check ups all the time and no doctor can address 5 chronic problems in 15 minutes and do a physical exam. Yet, internists do 15 minute appt by default. I would imagine that a 15 min psych visit is much more thorough than an internist dealing with 4-5 chronic health problems and doing a physical exam.

I heard vistaril making this argument before and it's pretty silly - if anything, an indictment of government run healthcare - all but forcing docs to churn through tons of patients. The ACA adds 20 million to medicaid (which can pay as much as 56% less). Guess what? Those primary care visits may be cutting to 10-12 minutes soon.
 
Nah vistaril purposefully says things to piss people off on these boards. He a dbag in my opinion


Private practice doing vivitrol injections...although injecting heroine would b soooo much cooler

Are these injections more than standard IM administration of a drug? If not, why are you doing them and not an RN? Wouldn't the charge for an injection given IM be rather minimal?

Forgive my questions, I am not a psychiatrist and so forgive me if this is very well known to others, but I have never heard of a psychiatrist "doing injections," which usually is a statement referred to providing medication via injection to a difficult to reach target such as epidural, nerve root, botox to specific muscle groups, nerve blocks etc.

Just curious.
 
Kumar any answer?

I keep checking to see for my own knowledge but there has been radio silence from you. By the way, I dont do "injections," so I'm not asking for any turf war type of reasons, I truly just want to know what my teammates in different specialties can do and are doing...

Also, I used to be a psychiatry resident before emergency medicine and so keep an interest in this forum.

If anyone else knows what he is talking about please feel free to answer as I am curious and can't find much on the web about psychiatrists doing "injections"

TL
 
Kumar any answer?

I keep checking to see for my own knowledge but there has been radio silence from you. By the way, I dont do "injections," so I'm not asking for any turf war type of reasons, I truly just want to know what my teammates in different specialties can do and are doing...

Also, I used to be a psychiatry resident before emergency medicine and so keep an interest in this forum.

If anyone else knows what he is talking about please feel free to answer as I am curious and can't find much on the web about psychiatrists doing "injections"

TL

He is talking about standard IM injections usually of long-acting medications, such as antipsychotics or in this case vivitrol. Since many psychiatrists work in solo practices without access to a nurse, they are reimbursed for doing the procedure. Furthermore some do injections of these long-acting medications and outreach or other settings where they go to the patient.

Though I don't take insurance, my understanding is that procedures are reimbursed quite differentially based on the specialty, rather than the procedure itself. Just like a steroid injection into saying ankle would be substantially different between an orthopedic surgeon, a family practice doc, and emergency room doc. The procedures really the same, but the pay is quite different.
 
He is talking about standard IM injections usually of long-acting medications, such as antipsychotics or in this case vivitrol. Since many psychiatrists work in solo practices without access to a nurse, they are reimbursed for doing the procedure. Furthermore some do injections of these long-acting medications and outreach or other settings where they go to the patient.

Though I don't take insurance, my understanding is that procedures are reimbursed quite differentially based on the specialty, rather than the procedure itself. Just like a steroid injection into saying ankle would be substantially different between an orthopedic surgeon, a family practice doc, and emergency room doc. The procedures really the same, but the pay is quite different.

Thank you for clarifying it. I give shots too, just never considered it an, "injection," of the kind where I would say I DO injections, but thats unique to me I guess. It helps to know that this is a standard intramuscular injection. I still can't imagine it to be very lucrative...afterall, a technician can give the same shot and in fact some families give IM injections at home. Regardless, it puts my curiosity to bed.

Cheers,
TL
 
Why all this "ceding" to other fields? Are we as psychiatrists just a bunch of pushovers?

On another note: since I always look to the future: any real possibility of a NEW ERA in psychiatry within the next 10 years, i.e. perhaps glutamate agonists? Anything revolutionary in our midst, on the precipice from those more in the know?

In short, yes. I don't know where the fault lies completely - but I beleive it would be appropriate to start with the board.
 
Why all this "ceding" to other fields? Are we as psychiatrists just a bunch of pushovers?

On another note: since I always look to the future: any real possibility of a NEW ERA in psychiatry within the next 10 years, i.e. perhaps glutamate agonists? Anything revolutionary in our midst, on the precipice from those more in the know?

I don't think we "ceded" territory because we're pushovers. The real reason is that there is a BAD shortage of psychiatrists, and most people went into psychiatry to do PSYCHIATRY, not sleep/forensics/consults/pain/etc.

We have significant trouble attracting applicants into fellowship spots because the pay and lifestyle is so good without a fellowship that it's hard to make an argument for doing a fellowship. Something that's less true in IM, and becoming less true in anesthesia, where they're worried about being phased out due to nurses.

Sleep was the same way. We started it, then we couldn't fill it because everyone wanted to go into private practice and make money. Then it boomed and they needed bodies, so here we are, not doing sleep as always.

Same things happens in academics, where they trouble attracting new attendings and new researchers. Again, most people gravitate to private practice...for whatever reason.
 
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