Quitting a job... burning a bridge?

[onisteverina]

So, I've been working at the same small animal clinic for over 3 years. At this point, we have had a lot of turnover and I'm pretty much the only non-new tech person.. although one of them has been here for maybe 5 months and has a pretty good handle on things. In the last couple of months, I haven't really been enjoying myself... I chalked it up to being stressed from the application process, but I'm not so sure anymore. The doc has been making a lot of negative/patronizing/generally annoying remarks more often. In the past I have brushed them off and/or ignored them, but they are starting to really get to me. I'm not sure if I'm having a pre-vet school crisis, but I really feel like I should be really enjoying my time before starting vet school.. and I'm considering quitting my job.. this would be the only time in the last.. maybe 10 years that I would be jobless.. and I know real life doesn't allow you to just up and leave your job, so I'm thinking that maybe this would be the time to do it if any.

So... I get to my question. Since I started, I told him when I would plan to apply to school and a general idea of when I would be leaving..June-July before school starts. It is obviously not that time yet. I'm wondering how important it is to maintain relationships with DVMs/clinics that you have worked for as a tech when you becoming a DVM... I would kind of assume that when you apply as a DVM after graduation, you wouldn't list tech experience? But I really don't know... I just wanted to check. I would plan on giving AT LEAST 2 weeks noticed... maybe a month, but I feel like when I leave, he will probably take it personally... and frankly, I wouldn't mind telling him what I think if it wouldn't potentially harm me in the future. Any thoughts on this would be awesome!

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[wildcatj]

I think I would just tell them that you'd like to take some time off before you move for school. I think that's totally reasonable especially if you can give them a month's notice. End on amicable terms and it should be just fine.

 

[DVMDream]

Keep in mind that previous employers are always a good source of recommendation letters for the future. Obviously you would only ask him for that if you thought he would still right you a good letter when that time comes. I actually just called up a vet I worked with last 4 years ago (from 2005-2010), asking him to write me a letter of recommendation for something.

I'm not saying you need to stick around or anything, but you don't want to quit on a rocky road or make it a bad situation. Since you are going to be quitting in a few months time for vet school anyway, I don't see how it would look badly on you to just tell him that you want a bit more time off before vet school starts and quit in the next month or so. I doubt he could be mad at you for that, and if he is, then he would probably be mad at you for quitting at any time between now and when school starts. I say as long as you quit on amicable terms, it should be fine.

 

[dyachei]

Don't burn any bridges if you can help it. vet med is a small world.

 

[onisteverina]

I guess my dilemma is that I feel like he will be mad, even with a month notice.. I guess I could also suggest that I stay until he finds a suitable replacement? He is notorious for taking a long time to hire people... mainly because he takes his time listing jobs on craigslist, doesn't call people right away, has an extended working interview process...etc.. so it took us several months to find a person when he had people responding to his job opening within hours... so I'm worried that I would be stuck longer..

 

[onisteverina]

By the way, thank you for your responses. I spoke to my mom about this and she just told me to quit and to not worry about it.. but I do think it's important to end on good terms.. especially since I want to work somewhere around here when I graduate.

 

[that redhead]

Well, if you told him you'd be leaving in June or July, I personally would let him know that you'll plan to leave June 1 as you'd mentioned before and stick with it until then. I'm of the opinion that maintaining the relationship for essentially two more months is worth it in the long run.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

My two cents on the remarks your boss is making: Talk to him. You have a right to feel respected at any job you have! You could phrase it as "I feel like you've been disappointed in my work judging by the things you say here and there." I could be totally off base and this might be a bad idea, so someone with previous experience with problems like this, please chime in! If you approach it that way, any person you have a conflict with will probably be less likely to feel cornered, as opposed to "Why have you been so rude lately?"

I have a similar issue with my boss. When very stressed out (screaming biting cat in the treatment room stressed), she tends to get extremely condescending and makes you feel like everything you do is wrong. I'm just now being allowed in the treatment room, so when I don't know where something is I get snapped at. However, I have not had much time to learn it. The catch is that she warned me that I'll need a thick skin to deal with that when she hired me, so she is aware that she can be hurtful. Luckily, I can keep a straight face through it all and just feel crappy about it later. Tricky situation, but I'm not yet accepted to vet school and am not about to give up a position where I can earn hours.

Also, as for quitting in general, if I had gotten in this cycle, I would most likely have quit both of my jobs in order to have a summer off with friends and family. Ending on good terms is essential, though!

 

[dovelover]

Well, if you told him you'd be leaving in June or July, I personally would let him know that you'll plan to leave June 1 as you'd mentioned before and stick with it until then. I'm of the opinion that maintaining the relationship for essentially two more months is worth it in the long run.

I agree with this. Keeping a strong relationship with this person could be very beneficial to you in the long run, and as long as what he's doing isn't egregiously inappropriate, I would just suck it up and stick it out. In the long run you'll be thankful for the extra money and thankful you left on undamaged terms a lot more than you'll regret 2 extra months of being annoyed with work. And it is good to learn how to survive working in a difficult environment, because you may one day find yourself in that situation when you can't get out of it so easily. I sometimes look back at the crap I had to deal with at my old internship/job and think despite how miserable it made me sometimes (in between some really awesome times), it was so worth it, because now everything else really seems easy by comparison. Plus, you'll still have a pretty decent amount of time off before school, so you'll have plenty of time to enjoy yourself.

I have a similar issue with my boss. When very stressed out (screaming biting cat in the treatment room stressed), she tends to get extremely condescending and makes you feel like everything you do is wrong. I'm just now being allowed in the treatment room, so when I don't know where something is I get snapped at. However, I have not had much time to learn it. The catch is that she warned me that I'll need a thick skin to deal with that when she hired me, so she is aware that she can be hurtful. Luckily, I can keep a straight face through it all and just feel crappy about it later. Tricky situation, but I'm not yet accepted to vet school and am not about to give up a position where I can earn hours.

This very much describes the vet I worked with too. She was very nice and complimentary normally, but put an animal in front of her and you'd think the world was ending. It was hard when I was just a lowly new intern. But after I'd been there a few months I was pretty much the only one who didn't get in a panic when she started yelling and thus I was the one who started getting relied on for things, even sometimes before certain techs. You do learn a lot from that kind of experience. I was scribing for an exam on a very large and dangerous carnivore today, which involved like a dozen different people each with different tests they were performing or legs they were holding up, etc. And yet, the entire process was so much more calm by comparison than putting pretty much any animal in front of my vet back home. So following along was really downright easy by comparison.

 

[DVMDream]

My two cents on the remarks your boss is making: Talk to him. You have a right to feel respected at any job you have! You could phrase it as "I feel like you've been disappointed in my work judging by the things you say here and there." I could be totally off base and this might be a bad idea, so someone with previous experience with problems like this, please chime in! If you approach it that way, any person you have a conflict with will probably be less likely to feel cornered, as opposed to "Why have you been so rude lately?"

As much as I would agree with talking things out in any other situation, this is not one of them. She will be leaving soon no matter what, so sometimes in these cases sucking it up and dealing with it is best, as hard as that may be. You don't want to mention something so close to the point you are leaving that even if you mean it the right way, that person may take it wrong and it can damage a good relationship. If she was going to be there for the next three years, then yes, I would say discuss it as there is time to work through it, but she could end up really damaging the relationship by saying something now. Best to not create a conflict right before you quit a job.

 

[LetItSnow]

Well, if you told him you'd be leaving in June or July, I personally would let him know that you'll plan to leave June 1 as you'd mentioned before and stick with it until then. I'm of the opinion that maintaining the relationship for essentially two more months is worth it in the long run.

I'm with Dyachei and TRH - vet med is a small world, don't burn this connection that could be SUPER useful down the road. Especially since you said you were staying until June or July.

If you really want to leave, here is what I would do. I would approach him and say something along the lines of "I know I told you I'd be leaving in June or July if I got into vet school. Now that I'm in, I've been reflecting and I think I'd like a little more time to relax and get things together before I start school. Would it be possible to start the hiring process sooner to replace me? If you can't hire anyone I will still stay until July like I said I would, but if you could hire someone sooner that would be great. I'm happy to stay and help train that person in, too, if we can get them hired sooner."

In a long-term scenario, I'd agree with pinkpuppy that you should approach your boss. Long-term you don't want to work in an unpleasant environment. In this specific case, though, I think you're better off putting on a smile, sucking it up, and trying not to let it get to you. Just keep reminding yourself you're done soon 'nuff.

By the way, thank you for your responses. I spoke to my mom about this and she just told me to quit and to not worry about it.. but I do think it's important to end on good terms.. especially since I want to work somewhere around here when I graduate.

Unless your mom is a vet or otherwise pretty familiar with the industry, take that advice with a big grain of salt. Maybe you're already acutely aware of it, but if not, when you get into vet school you'll start finding out just how small this industry is.

 

[cowgirla]

"Dear Boss Man.
As I mentioned previously, I will be leaving this job on June 1st in order to prepare myself for vet school. I'm super excited about this opportunity and couldn't have done it without your help and support over the past few years. As thanks, in order to expedite your hiring process, I am not only willing to assist with hiring and training a replacement, but I am prepared to step aside sooner than June 1st if necessary, so that you won't have to pay two people for the same job at the same time.

Love always, hugs and kisses,
onisteverina"

 

[onisteverina]

Thanks guys and gals! You all have definitely confirmed that I need to just stick it out... although it is really tempting to throw in the towel and enjoy being a bum for a while, I know that it will be beneficial to maintain a good relationship.. especially with all the time I have spent there.

Side note... most of the comments aren't directed toward me (only some) because I've learned all of his quirks.. but with the new staff and even clients he really has some outrageous attitude sometimes. Even when it isn't directed toward me, it isn't a pleasant environment to be in and I don't dig all of the negative energy.. also the constant worry that people will quit and then I will be the only one left trying to keep it all together. I also find myself being incredibly nitpicky when training people so that they don't get yelled at for mistakes, but then I feel like the new staff think that I'm also a big b-word for being that way (I think they are picking up on it more now.. since he is extra attitudey lately)... Anyway, this has been a huge learning experience.. and if I ever own a practice, I will definitely have insight into the staff prospective... okie dokie.. I'm done venting

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Anyway, this has been a huge learning experience.. and if I ever own a practice, I will definitely have insight into the staff prospective... okie dokie.. I'm done venting

I think that's a huge thing that future practice owners need to have under their belts...what it's like to work for someone who might have 12 hour days, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. If you can remember what it's like to be a staff member, you'll be a great boss.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I think that's a huge thing that future practice owners need to have under their belts...what it's like to work for someone who might have 12 hour days, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. If you can remember what it's like to be a staff member, you'll be a great boss.

Edit: If I were in your position, I'd be tempted to let my boss know that he might be poisoning the work environment. But that's only because I tend to be over-concerned with things that don't necessary affect me (I feel bad when my coworkers aren't treated well). But I think everyone is spot on that it might not be worth it to say something after all. I guess it isn't your responsibility to make sure your boss is a good boss, and if he loses employees for treating people badly then maybe he will take something away from it on his own.

 

[Scarlettmorgana]

Don't burn bridges but you cannot be miserable! I was in a really rough work situation. I was depressed and there were points that it made me question my decision to become a vet. I ended up leaving that hospital: just do it in the most respectful way. It is easy to feel like you owe the vet everything for giving you the job, but you deserve their respect. I found another job and I feel like my passion for vet med was rekindled. At this point in the game do what is best for you

 

[Bearby]

I'm going to kind of go against everyone else, only because I was in a similar situation.

I was miserable at my place of employment for the last 6 months before I finally quit, and the only reason I stuck around that long was because I was waiting for someone to come back from maternity leave. The owner was acting similarly to what you described, and I actually would get angry on days that people even mentioned her name or when I knew she'd be coming in, even if it was only for a moment. I was going home and snapping at my family because I had to hold it all in at work. I finally gave a month's notice and agreed to an exit interview (since everyone else who quit was too afraid to do one). I explained that I really enjoyed the people that I worked with and that I thought the quality of medicine practiced was higher than I had experienced anywhere else. Then, I told her that I was leaving because her attitude was affecting me negatively. I explained some situations that really weighed heavily on me and she fought me on them and told me about how it's ok because of all the crap she was going through. She also told me that it was my fault that I felt that way, and maybe it was, but I just told her that I was sorry she felt that way. She ended up letting me continue working for the 2 weeks I had left after my exit interview (which I didn't think would happen since I was basically telling her that she was ruining my life). I went back to her with my cat about a year after leaving because she is a really good vet and practices good medicine.

Whether the bridge is burned or not, I don't know. Do I care? No. She began to reflect on herself more after our talk and checked in with the other employees from time to time to make sure that she wasn't being a total bitch. Yes, vet med is a small community, but I have so many strong supporters on my side that it wasn't worth the extra 5 months or so of misery.

In the end, do what's best for you.

 

[revolp1965]

How about starting to look for a new job while you are still working there. Most employers understand that you need to provide two weeks notice to a current employer, so it really shouldn't be an issue. If you find something else simply give notice. A written resignation "for personal reasons" is all the explanation you owe him. Make sure that you state how much you've enjoyed working there and how much you learned from the experience in your resignation letter.

Ultimately, even if you don't find another job, if the veterinarian is creating an uncomfortable working environment, it may be time to leave, politely and in writing, with proper notice. Life's too short to be unhappy.

 

[dyachei]

I'm not saying you shouldn't leave, just don't burn bridges. If you really want to be a bum, tell him you really need some extra time off before vet school and you'd like to resign earlier. Just give plenty of notice

 

[Rabbit Riot]

I must have a very different definition of "burning bridges."

If you do the things that any reasonable, respectful, thoughtful person should do when resigning a position, how are YOU the one burning the bridge?

Calling him an a-hole, maybe throwing in some comments about his mother, and storming out on the spot - that would be some fantastic bridge burning.

(Also, approaching a boss about his behavior might be more confrontational and accusatory than approaching him and asking about your personal performance. As an employee you are entitled to know what your employer thinks about your work. If he says all positive things, then it's fair to bring up the instances in which his criticisms were far less glowing and far more public. You might want to request an exit interview just for that reason.)

 

[that redhead]

I must have a very different definition of "burning bridges."

If you do the things that any reasonable, respectful, thoughtful person should do when resigning a position, how are YOU the one burning the bridge?

To me, rescinding on her previously stated intention to stay until June or July is a less than professional move that could jeopardize her relationship with him. I don't advocate staying there if she is truly miserable but if she can at all manage to gut it out for two more months, I think it would be a lot better than leaving before she'd previously agreed to. Just my two cents.

 

[LetItSnow]

To me, rescinding on her previously stated intention to stay until June or July is a less than professional move that could jeopardize her relationship with him. I don't advocate staying there if she is truly miserable but if she can at all manage to gut it out for two more months, I think it would be a lot better than leaving before she'd previously agreed to. Just my two cents.

Agreed. And honestly, it might be one thing if she's planning to move somewhere far, far away after vet school (though it's STILL a really small industry). But if she were planning to go away to school, come back, and practice in that area ... I wouldn't want a local clinic owner remembering her as the one who said she'd stay until June/July who bailed in March or April. Even if it was done as a standard two-weeks notice kind of thing.

I'd try and find a better solution that offers each side some incentive.

 

[Rabbit Riot]

To me, rescinding on her previously stated intention to stay until June or July is a less than professional move that could jeopardize her relationship with him. I don't advocate staying there if she is truly miserable but if she can at all manage to gut it out for two more months, I think it would be a lot better than leaving before she'd previously agreed to. Just my two cents.

Sorry, but I just don't see giving two or more weeks notice lacking in professionalism, despite whatever previous plans she may have shared with her employer. If that jeopardizes the relationship, after years of loyal service, I would guess the relationship was unhealthy to begin with and her employer was far from reasonable or accommodating.

She shouldn't have to fear any retaliation for doing something that is standard practice and is considered a professional courtesy.

 

[DVMDream]

Sorry, but I just don't see giving two or more weeks notice lacking in professionalism, despite whatever previous plans she may have shared with her employer. If that jeopardizes the relationship, after years of loyal service, I would guess the relationship was unhealthy to begin with and her employer was far from reasonable or accommodating.

Often times, employers make plans for when they will need to start looking for new hires and things. If she had already told him June/July and his plan was to hire someone beforehand that she could train before she leaves then she suddenly changes her mind and leaves in 2 weeks or within the next month, that could be seen as unprofessional. General practice is to give a 2 week notice but when you have built up a relationship with a place and they might be depending on you to train a new employee or had previously believed you would be there until "x" month and now you won't be, it can break a bit of that trust that had been formed there.

My employer had strict guidelines that they could not even begin to hire a new employee until I had given my notice in writing. They knew I was leaving, but it had to be given in writing to them. The hard part was that I was not set on when I wanted to quit. I had ideas in mind but really wanted time to think about it. However, I had told them I would help train anyone new and in order for them to even begin they needed my notice, so I gave them my notice 3 months early. Was it best for me? No. I had to make a quick decision on a date. Was it good for the relationship I had built with them? Yes.

 

[Rabbit Riot]

General practice is to give a 2 week notice but when you have built up a relationship with a place and they might be depending on you to train a new employee or had previously believed you would be there until "x" month and now you won't be, it can break a bit of that trust that had been formed there.

That might be inconvenient for the employer, but it is still not unprofessional of the employee, especially if nothing in the contract puts those expectations on the resigning party. If the employer has different expectations, they can make them contractual or they can negotiate with an employee for a date that is more mutually beneficial (similar to your situation).

What the employer feels after given appropriate notice should not be used against the employee and those feelings say nothing about that person's professionalism.
People moving on from a job is an inevitability. Feeling betrayed when it eventually happens is not productive or business-like in most circumstances. In reality, some employers and colleagues will feel betrayed no matter how you leave or how much time you give them to train a replacement.

Her employer knows that she is leaving in the near future. He was given a 60+ day ballpark. Can he really be that upset if she leaves sometime in April (2-6 weeks) instead of June or July? If he wants her to stay longer he can talk it out with her. As it is, he'll have to clarify the date she's leaving anyway.

If he's unreasonable and gets upset with her, oh well. It will apparently just be another incident of him acting out against his employees.

 

[dyachei]

That might be inconvenient for the employer, but it is still not unprofessional of the employee, especially if nothing in the contract puts those expectations on the resigning party. If the employer has different expectations, they can make them contractual or they can negotiate with an employee for a date that is more mutually beneficial (similar to your situation).

What the employer feels after given appropriate notice should not be used against the employee and those feelings say nothing about that person's professionalism.
People moving on from a job is an inevitability. Feeling betrayed when it eventually happens is not productive or business-like in most circumstances. In reality, some employers and colleagues will feel betrayed no matter how you leave or how much time you give them to train a replacement.

Her employer knows that she is leaving in the near future. He was given a 60+ day ballpark. Can he really be that upset if she leaves sometime in April (2-6 weeks) instead of June or July? If he wants her to stay longer he can talk it out with her. As it is, he'll have to clarify the date she's leaving anyway.

If he's unreasonable and gets upset with her, oh well. It will apparently just be another incident of him acting out against his employees.

yes, because she set the expectation.

 

[LetItSnow]

That might be inconvenient for the employer, but it is still not unprofessional of the employee, especially if nothing in the contract puts those expectations on the resigning party. If the employer has different expectations, they can make them contractual or they can negotiate with an employee for a date that is more mutually beneficial (similar to your situation).

What the employer feels after given appropriate notice should not be used against the employee and those feelings say nothing about that person's professionalism.
People moving on from a job is an inevitability. Feeling betrayed when it eventually happens is not productive or business-like in most circumstances. In reality, some employers and colleagues will feel betrayed no matter how you leave or how much time you give them to train a replacement.

Her employer knows that she is leaving in the near future. He was given a 60+ day ballpark. Can he really be that upset if she leaves sometime in April (2-6 weeks) instead of June or July? If he wants her to stay longer he can talk it out with her. As it is, he'll have to clarify the date she's leaving anyway.

If he's unreasonable and gets upset with her, oh well. It will apparently just be another incident of him acting out against his employees.

It's all fine and well to argue that how the employer feels shouldn't impact the employee - but that's not real life.

How your employer feels can have an impact on you down the road, whether it's fair or not. So it's often/sometimes smart to just set aside asserting your rights. It may very well meet all of one's professional obligations to only give 2 week's notice. But if your employer is going to perceive that negatively ... it's probably not in your best interests. And in this case, she set an expectation of June/July; so changing that suddenly could reasonably be perceived negatively. And that could be reflected in how the employer speaks about her to other people. And in a field this size, that matters.

I see a whole lot of people nowadays thinking things are very black and white .... that if one has a 'right' to do something, that it shouldn't be at all possible for that to be used against them, because that would be just horribly unfair. But that's just not the way the real world works. If you do something - even if you're completely entitled to it - and someone perceives it negatively, that can impact you. And that might be totally unfair and totally real all at the same time.

I'm not saying you should always just buckle and do whatever anyone wants. There's a time for saying "ya know, that person is going to perceive this negatively, but the benefit outweighs the risk, and I'm not doing anything wrong."

And that's how you should make the decision. Not "do I have the right" ... because the OP has the right to quit whenever they want. She needs to decide whether quitting earlier than she initially communicated would a) be perceived negatively, b) whether that boss is the type of person to convey those negative perceptions to other people, and c) how worth it to her it is to take that risk.

That's why some of us recommended a different option than "stick it out" or "quit now": Try and find a win-win scenario where she can leave early AND do it in a way that leaves good feelings with the current boss.

 

[Rabbit Riot]

yes, because she set the expectation.

Expectation of what exactly? Any perceived expectations aren't real until employers and employees choose an actual end date. Those dates are not vague and do not cover multiple months and multiple pay periods. Anything outside of a formal agreement is just guessing.

 

[Rabbit Riot]

It's all fine and well to argue that how the employer feels shouldn't impact the employee - but that's not real life.

I agree with most of what you said. I just don't think there is any benefit in tip toeing around a bad employer who might retaliate against you by trying to ruin your reputation over something as silly as what date you chose to leave his practice. That is not a person you want to lean on in the future for references or other special favors. Assuming that is what would happen in this case.

Giving her employer a few more weeks is reasonable and still well within the realm of professionalism, especially in light of his behavior. Whatever he chooses to say about her is not something she has any real control over in the end, whether it is negative or positive.

 

[DVMDream]

I agree with most of what you said. I just don't think there is any benefit in tip toeing around a bad employer who might retaliate against you by trying to ruin your reputation over something as silly as what date you chose to leave his practice. That is not a person you want to lean on in the future for references or other special favors. Assuming that is what would happen in this case.

Giving her employer a few more weeks is reasonable and still well within the realm of professionalism, especially in light of his behavior. Whatever he chooses to say about her is not something she has any real control over in the end, whether it is negative or positive.

In a field as small as vet med, any retaliation by a previous employer (whether founded or unfounded) can be bad news. Even if she never uses this person again for future references, you don't want to leave on unfriendly terms. The field is small enough that you never know what may happen in the future and he could very well end up being someone that is interviewing her in 4 years time for a job.

The point isn't is it reasonable to give 2 weeks- one month notice. The point is: Is it reasonable to give a shorter notice than I had already verbally given. The answer is a mixed bag. Yes, you could do that, but there is the chance that (whether justified or not) he looks upon that poorly and at minimum she might just be out a future reference and at maximum it spreads via word of mouth through the small community. The other option is no, just continue on, you have a decent working relationship with him now, put in the notice for June 1st and leave without creating any issues.

With the way things are now in vet med, you need every reference you can possibly get once you graduate. Jobs are so hard to find, that any black mark, even a small, unjustified one could cause a lot of damage.

The OP is going to know her boss/employer the best. So she would know if he would be one to get irrationally upset over her quitting a little bit earlier than she had already verbally expressed. She needs to weigh out what she thinks his reactions could be and the potential positives and negatives to both quitting early and staying. They both have pros and cons, this is just figuring out which has the least number of cons and going for it.

The other thing we have to remember is that we get one side to the story. I have no reason to doubt the OP's claims that the doc is being more negative, but we do not know exactly how bad it is. I know that I started to get really anxious and antsy at my vet job right before I was about to quit for vet school. I think I was hitting burn out due to the clinic being short-staffed and knowing I was leaving soon. Things that didn't bother me prior, really started to hit a nerve with me. Could that be possible here? Maybe. Though if she is unhappy, what is causing that does not matter. If staying is going to completely burn her out to the point she is overwhelmed before even getting to vet school then it would be worthwhile to quit now. Otherwise, if she can manage to deal with the doc's negativity for a bit longer, I would suggest she stays so as not to create any unnecessary drama.

 

[dyachei]

Expectation of what exactly? Any perceived expectations aren't real until employers and employees choose an actual end date. Those dates are not vague and do not cover multiple months and multiple pay periods. Anything outside of a formal agreement is just guessing.

She gave the employer a verbal timeframe for her leaving (June/July). If she gives notice now for earlier, it can be construed as unprofessional. If she wants to talk to the employer about leaving earlier, that's fine, but she should be prepared to honor her verbal commitment or be seen as unprofessional if she chooses not - if the employer doesn't agree to it.

 

[Rabbit Riot]

In a field as small as vet med, any retaliation by a previous employer (whether founded or unfounded) can be bad news. Even if she never uses this person again for future references, you don't want to leave on unfriendly terms. The field is small enough that you never know what may happen in the future and he could very well end up being someone that is interviewing her in 4 years time for a job....Yes, you could do that, but there is the chance that (whether justified or not) he looks upon that poorly and at minimum she might just be out a future reference and at maximum it spreads via word of mouth through the small community.

I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. I must say though that what you're describing above could be a form of blacklisting and in many states that is an illegal practice that carries criminal and civil implications. In states where that type of behavior is not illegal, an employer could run the risk of being sued for defamation. Most employers don't want to be pulled into lengthy arbitration with former employees, win or lose.

I have a hard time believing that in the veterinary profession someone would risk their own reputation and business to attack former employees over minor disputes and those who would do that, likely don't have the influence to effectively damage a young professional's reputation four years out. That's attributing too much power to people displaying truly unprofessional conduct which will breed its own ill reputation in a small community.

 

[DVMDream]

I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. I must say though that what you're describing above could be a form of blacklisting and in many states that is an illegal practice that carries criminal and civil implications. In states where that type of behavior is not illegal, an employer could run the risk of being sued for defamation. Most employers don't want to be pulled into lengthy arbitration with former employees, win or lose.

I have a hard time believing that in the veterinary profession someone would risk their own reputation and business to attack former employees over minor disputes and those who would do that, likely don't have the influence to effectively damage a young professional's reputation four years out. That's attributing too much power to people displaying truly unprofessional conduct which will breed its own ill reputation in a small community.

I discussed hiring with one of the vets I worked with. He was the partial owner of 18 hospitals in the area I was working and was and still is directly involved with hiring. He described that legally he can give out positive references and recommendations to potential employers for past employees. If he does not have a positive review and what he has to say is negative all he can legally say is, "I would not consider this person for re-hire." Most employers know very well that they can not go around blacklisting employees, but when you submit your resume for a job, your previous employers will be on there. There is nothing stopping people who are hiring from calling up previous employers to ask for a reference. The doc doesn't have to "blacklist" her to give negative feedback. Simply saying, "I would not re-hire this employee or I would not recommend this employee for hiring" is enough. That is not blacklisting, bad talking, slander or libel in any way. Word of mouth does not have to be him telling every vet friend in a 10 mile radius about ther; it could just be giving a not positive review if someone were to call and ask for a reference. Most places will take the word of the experienced vet seriously.

 

[Elasmobranchiiphile]

I was in a similar situation at my first veterinary job (in fact, by three months I was his most "experienced" veterinary assistant). I stuck it out for six months because I wanted a letter of recommendation for vet school and knew as miserable as I was, I never gave my boss any cause for complaint. When I finally quit, I gave him a month's notice and he thanked me several times for the extra time to find my replacement. However, he did not hire a replacement until my last week, and fired him the week after I left so to me it doesn't matter the time frame, if it's a poor work environment they're going to have difficulty replacing you. Since I didn't find a new job quickly, I did start working for him basically on an as needed basis and the cut down on the hours plus getting to choose a bit more when I worked helped to keep me from feeling overwhelmed. When I asked him for a letter of recommendation for vet school, he said yes and was happy to write it. True, I never gave him a leaving time frame going into it, but I think you can say you've changed your mind, you'd like a little more time to prepare for vet school, and still give them plenty of notice, it will work out fine.

 

[dovelover]

I think asking if it would be possible to leave a bit earlier than June 1st would be reasonable (and just stick it out if he says no)... but I wouldn't really get into the reasons why. In an ideal world you could stand up for what you think is right and not get punished for it and everyone would appreciate your observations and suggestions for improvement. However, in real life, people get defensive when you critique them, especially when you're in a position beneath them. Even done in a courteous and professional way, people can take things very much the wrong way. At my old internship, I had been there forever and was very comfortable with the staff and had no problem being vocal about things that bothered me when a staffing change resulted in some negative changes for the intern program. But my crusade really didn't do me many any favors... I lost out on an awesome job that really should have been mine. The vet still really liked me, and even appreciated my willingness to stand up for things, but in the end, the hospital manager didn't seem to appreciate my rather disgruntled relationship with the other employee at the root of the problems. Staying around and putting up with it was a personal choice I made for myself, because I have quit things when the going got tough a few too many times in my life-hence my personal preference for saying stick it out. It worked out for me in the end when I got a job a few months later when they desperately needed more help, and I ended up leaving on better terms with the person I had problems with, but it was such an awful feeling knowing that I had screwed myself over trying to stand up for people I worked with who were being treated like they were kindergarteners. Would I have felt worse never saying anything? I dunno, but I would have had an awesome job (and ultimately would have been able to do more to improve that situation than I could as an intern.)

Maybe I'm just an overly cynical person, but sometimes sucking it up for a little while if you have to will benefit you tremendously in the long run. People interested in going into the veterinary profession tend to be very idealistic-- vet med's my childhood dream, I don't care about any of the realities people keep pointing out to me... the job market sucks but it'll all work out because I don't care about money, I just want to do something I love (I'm guilty of that one)... I'm happy to work my butt off working without pay doing menial work for two years if it gets me into vet school-- We're giving up a whole heck of a lot to go into a profession we love, so sometimes it feels like we should always love what we're doing. But a lot of people out there keep on working in jobs that suck at lot more than it sounds like this one does, because they have to. You obviously don't have to... you'll be in vet school soon. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that you'd like to leave a bit earlier if he can find a replacement for you, but if not, you'll stay until June. Is an extra month or two of being grumpy at work going to kill you? Probably not. In this situation, I'd say it's not worth it to speak your mind, even in a respectful way. It's not an ideal world, and you really have no idea how it will turn out for you. And now is not the time to be taking that chance. I know, it feels like a cop out, or like giving up. I've been there, I know that feeling. But a year from now, you'll have moved on and won't really care anymore. You will however start to care a lot about getting a summer job or externship for experience, getting recommendation letters, and eventually getting a job with your brand new DVM. How you felt about something that happened before vet school will mean very little.

 

[Rabbit Riot]

Word of mouth does not have to be him telling every vet friend in a 10 mile radius about ther; it could just be giving a not positive review if someone were to call and ask for a reference. Most places will take the word of the experienced vet seriously.

That's an understandable consequence of leaving any job, but it's not going to result in the kind of backlash that has been described above. One bad reference out of potentially dozens of other work experiences is not the kiss of death. Most employers understand that not all situations end on the best terms and that may not be due to any wrongdoing on the part of an employee. As I mentioned earlier, some employers will be upset and feel betrayed no matter how an employee chooses to resign their position.

What the OP is contemplating is not something unusual for positions filled by students. Why would the employer want to jeopardize the relationship with that employee and the rest of his staff by overreacting to the situation and giving out an overwhelming negative reference? As the OP described her situation, it sounds like he is very reliant on her to help train new employees and run his practice, even if he seems unappreciative of that help. When she leaves, whenever that may be, it will inconvenience him, but if they part cordially he has the potential to bring her back for summers or breaks and have her perform expanded duties afforded to her by her new education. If he overreacts he may end up doing more harm to his own business and the morale of his current employees, who were largely trained by the OP. Cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

[dyachei]

What the OP is contemplating is not something unusual for positions filled by students. Why would the employer want to jeopardize the relationship with that employee and the rest of his staff by overreacting to the situation and giving out an overwhelming negative reference? As the OP described her situation, it sounds like he is very reliant on her to help train new employees and run his practice, even if he seems unappreciative of that help. When she leaves, whenever that may be, it will inconvenience him, but if they part cordially he has the potential to bring her back for summers or breaks and have her perform expanded duties afforded to her by her new education. If he overreacts he may end up doing more harm to his own business and the morale of his current employees, who were largely trained by the OP. Cutting off the nose to spite the face.

Umm, have you worked in the real world? This happens all the time.

 

[that redhead]

I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. I must say though that what you're describing above could be a form of blacklisting and in many states that is an illegal practice that carries criminal and civil implications. In states where that type of behavior is not illegal, an employer could run the risk of being sued for defamation. Most employers don't want to be pulled into lengthy arbitration with former employees, win or lose.

I have a hard time believing that in the veterinary profession someone would risk their own reputation and business to attack former employees over minor disputes and those who would do that, likely don't have the influence to effectively damage a young professional's reputation four years out. That's attributing too much power to people displaying truly unprofessional conduct which will breed its own ill reputation in a small community.

I think you're leaning pretty heavily on what should happen (like LIS touched on) moreso than what can happen in a real-world scenario. The type of problems she would face in this case wouldn't be her previous employer slandering her name on billboards and calling every vet nearby to tell them how terrible she is; it would be little things mentioned here or there in passing conversation with another person in their locale that could be enough to make a mark, however small, on her reputation.

 

[that redhead]

Additionally, while she didn't sign any paperwork or commit herself contractually to the leave date, I personally think it's important to honor one's commitments, even verbal, if at all possible in all life situations. If he's a truly toxic employer and she can't stand to be around him anymore, fine. But if it's a managable situation, I would always advocate sticking with one's word.

 

[DVMDream]

That's an understandable consequence of leaving any job, but it's not going to result in the kind of backlash that has been described above. One bad reference out of potentially dozens of other work experiences is not the kiss of death. Most employers understand that not all situations end on the best terms and that may not be due to any wrongdoing on the part of an employee. As I mentioned earlier, some employers will be upset and feel betrayed no matter how an employee chooses to resign their position.

One bad reference out of how many work experiences? Dozens? Do you know the OP has dozens of work experiences? I don't. I know for me, personally, at 25 years old I have worked in vet med since I was 17. All largely with the same company, just with many, many different vets. I worked in another clinic outside that company for a year, but that vet has passed away. I also worked as a desk assistant in a dormitory. In total, I have worked at 4 different places (2 hospitals being part of the one company). Messing up 1 work experience, could be really bad. It depends on how many other experiences the OP has. But having dozens of jobs also looks really poorly, shows that there is no commitment when you take on a job (depending on age and what you are considering "work experience"; if you mean actual jobs and not just shadowing/volunteering, it looks bad to have many, many, many jobs.. unless the OP is in her 40's and even then that could look bad).

What the OP is contemplating is not something unusual for positions filled by students. Why would the employer want to jeopardize the relationship with that employee and the rest of his staff by overreacting to the situation and giving out an overwhelming negative reference? As the OP described her situation, it sounds like he is very reliant on her to help train new employees and run his practice, even if he seems unappreciative of that help. When she leaves, whenever that may be, it will inconvenience him, but if they part cordially he has the potential to bring her back for summers or breaks and have her perform expanded duties afforded to her by her new education. If he overreacts he may end up doing more harm to his own business and the morale of his current employees, who were largely trained by the OP. Cutting off the nose to spite the face.

This happens all the time. I worked for 6 weeks at one clinic where they had installed a new computer system and had no clue how to run it. I had used it before, so I was their only source for teaching them how to operate it. The vet was still a dick, yelled at me in front of clients and then proceeded to fire me after she hired on a full time staff. The new computer system they got, was never used, wasted money.

Also, students filling positions do often leave, but if you tell an employer verbally... "I will be leaving around x date" it is a bit unprofessional to go back on that. I get that it wasn't in writing but lots of clinics keep those things in mind and plan things accordingly. It puts the clinic in a difficult situation if they had made plans for future hiring. It would be no different than in say, 7 years time working as a vet and deciding you are going to move or want to move on to a different job and you verbally stated an approximate time then decide that you want to leave earlier because you want a bit longer of a period between transitioning jobs (maybe the head vet has started to be a jerk). It still doesn't reflect positively on you.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

This whole conversation now has made me very nervous about potentially leaving my current position for an amazing internship....I intended on staying through the summer and my boss knows that. But the internship is at the vet hospital in Disney World...

 

[dovelover]

This whole conversation now has made me very nervous about potentially leaving my current position for an amazing internship....I intended on staying through the summer and my boss knows that. But the internship is at the vet hospital in Disney World...

But getting an awesome internship at disney world is at least something you can talk over with your current boss as really darn good reason why you want to leave. I feel like they'd probably be happy for you. But I would talk to them as soon as you can. What you do if they say they're not okay with the idea of you leaving earlier than planned, though, is an entirely different matter...

 

[pinkpuppy9]

But getting an awesome internship at disney world is at least something you can talk over with your current boss as really darn good reason why you want to leave. I feel like they'd probably be happy for you. But I would talk to them as soon as you can. What you do if they say they're not okay with the idea of you leaving earlier than planned, though, is an entirely different matter...

Well I haven't found out yet, but my interviewers said a few things that have given me a lot of hope. The latest I would find out if April 28th so I could be really cutting it close. The last thing I want to do is leave her scrambling to find a replacement and train him/her. And I would NOT want to risk jeopardizing future rehiring/shadowing.

 

[dovelover]

Well I haven't found out yet, but my interviewers said a few things that have given me a lot of hope. The latest I would find out if April 28th so I could be really cutting it close. The last thing I want to do is leave her scrambling to find a replacement and train him/her. And I would NOT want to risk jeopardizing future rehiring/shadowing.

Maybe just mention that you may have another opportunity coming up and ask if it would be a big burden to leave earlier than planned if you do get it? Giving them the heads up could help them get ready to possibly have to hire someone new. But again, it's hard to say what to do if they're not happily excited and say they'd be happy to help you go off to disney. Everything that's been said in this thread so far is definitely valid, quitting a job earlier than originally mentioned could leave a bad mark on your record. But it depends somewhat on your relationship with your boss, I think. The OP sounds like they don't have the most amazing relationship at the moment... but if you have a good relationship, they may be very understanding. You may just have to have put some feelers out, so to speak, and get a feel for how she'd react? It's a conversation worth having, assuming you don't have an awful relationship (which I assuming not if you're interested it possible future rehiring/shadowing). In order to give them the time they need to replace you, you may need to be willing to make a decision before you find out about the internship (ie, keep working through the summer and risk missing out on disney, or quit early and risk not getting the internship and having nothing to do).

 

[DVMDream]

Well I haven't found out yet, but my interviewers said a few things that have given me a lot of hope. The latest I would find out if April 28th so I could be really cutting it close. The last thing I want to do is leave her scrambling to find a replacement and train him/her. And I would NOT want to risk jeopardizing future rehiring/shadowing.

With this, you can always mention to them that you might get this internship, you won't know until end of April and that if you got it accepted you would be leaving around "x" time. This way, they kind of know about it. I did this when I was waitlisted for the first two years applying to vet school. My employers knew that I could be called away at any time between April 15th and school starting and I may not even be able to give two weeks notice, they were understanding of that.

 

[Rabbit Riot]

Umm, have you worked in the real world? This happens all the time.

Yes, I have. Is that all the answer you require to not invoke some condescending cliché about the "real world"?

One bad reference out of how many work experiences? Dozens? Do you know the OP has dozens of work experiences? I don't. I know for me, personally, at 25 years old I have worked in vet med since I was 17. ... (depending on age and what you are considering "work experience"; if you mean actual jobs and not just shadowing/volunteering, it looks bad to have many, many, many jobs.. unless the OP is in her 40's and even then that could look bad).

Potential dozens... of references from work experiences. No, I'm not just talking about paid jobs. Obviously the veterinary world is different in what it considers "experience" and it's very possible for students to have filled over a dozen positions from internships, jobs, and volunteer activities by their early twenties with multiple references from each. I've had about a dozen veterinary/animal related experiences of different durations and a few smaller non-vet jobs, some seasonal, between high school and graduate school. I'm 27 and I actually didn't start accumulating the bulk of my experiences until undergrad so I know there are people with more.

Also, students filling positions do often leave, but if you tell an employer verbally... "I will be leaving around x date" it is a bit unprofessional to go back on that. I get that it wasn't in writing but lots of clinics keep those things in mind and plan things accordingly. It puts the clinic in a difficult situation if they had made plans for future hiring.

It doesn't have to be in writing unless specified in a contract (though writing is superior for many reasons), but an actual date is still needed, regardless of how it's delivered. While the OP should have probably held off saying anything just yet, an employer shouldn't hold someone to a tentative date for something that important. She should work it out with him and ensure that she can provide the minimum amount of time needed to train a replacement if that is something she's been asked to do before she leaves. If she can do that before June, she shouldn't feel obligated to stick around or worry that still leaving early will cause some kind of rift if the employer hasn't done his job of hiring a replacement or adequately preparing for her departure come time.

It may not reflect positively, but I'm not convinced it would reflect negatively when the circumstances of leaving are divulged to future employers. This is where an exit interview would be very useful.

 

[dyachei]

Yes, I have. Is that all the answer you require to not invoke some condescending cliché about the "real world"?

In my personal experience, I have seen this sort of thing get people unexpectedly. Vets talk to each other often. All it takes is one to say, "I didn't have a good feeling about her and x happened" or "I didn't like her work ethic". If you think that's not an issue, you must be very lucky.

 

[LetItSnow]

This whole conversation now has made me very nervous about potentially leaving my current position for an amazing internship....I intended on staying through the summer and my boss knows that. But the internship is at the vet hospital in Disney World...

Yeah, but that's a perfect example of where the reward may well outweigh the risk. There are so many variables that are hard to assess on an Internet forum that it's really hard to give specific advice to people.

How's your relationship with your boss? What's your assessment of that person's integrity, character, and general 'niceness'? I mean, if you get along great, and they know you're headed to vet school, and you two can work together with your replacement ... then hell, just flat out tell them everything about what's going on and you two will figure it out. If your assessment is more negative about your boss, then you may want to just give them a quit date that works for you and go with it.

It's all just risk analysis.

I had a fantastic relationship with my employer when I went to vet school. So I told them exactly what was happening six months before school started; that allowed me and my boss to arrange to have me transferred into a new position that we knew was getting eliminated so that I could get laid off and receive a ridiculously generous severance package while allowing someone else who didn't want to get laid off (the person whose job I was swapping with) to take my position and stay on. Everybody won. Had I had a more blah relationship with my employer where I was concerned they may just turn around and fire me and leave me with six months loss of income and no severance, I would have simply waited it out, not told them, and gave them a standard notice.

Lots of variables.....

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Yeah, but that's a perfect example of where the reward may well outweigh the risk. There are so many variables that are hard to assess on an Internet forum that it's really hard to give specific advice to people.

How's your relationship with your boss? What's your assessment of that person's integrity, character, and general 'niceness'? I mean, if you get along great, and they know you're headed to vet school, and you two can work together with your replacement ... then hell, just flat out tell them everything about what's going on and you two will figure it out. If your assessment is more negative about your boss, then you may want to just give them a quit date that works for you and go with it.

It's all just risk analysis.

I really admire and look up to my boss, but I'm not entirely sure she likes me. She treats me well (minus the occasional stressful day when she gets fairly mean). She's given me the impression that I'm just another one of those pre-vets that comes and goes that she's had in for the past 25 or so years. Her clinic staff is truly her non-blood family and I've always felt like an outsider (one of her daughters, her daughter's best friend, a girl she's had for 12 years, and women who have been there for 25 years all work there now). Am I miserable there? Absolutely not. Do I think she might be a bit bitter/resentful/angry should I end up leaving for Disney, or even mention I applied for an internship? Yes. Part of me will be relieved if I don't get it, because then I won't have to bring it up. But I could be totally wrong, she might end up being happy for me. I think you get the picture that it's a little up and down and I'm constantly feeling the need to earn her respect and wondering if she enjoys having me around or not. She hasn't fired me so...that's good!