Rocky Vista "Turmoil"?

[JaggerPlate]

Doesn't make his argument any more or less valid. Also, like I said this reporting he's done maybe - realistically - took him all of 5 minutes. Also, it's probably not a great idea to make assumptions about what people do/don't do. For all you know he could be writing letters to the AOA.

Lol you assuming the opposite of what I am doesn't make your own argument any more of less valid ... Look the maybes and could bes in that last statement. Either way ... Highly doubt it was 5 minutes and I think or discussion has come to a logical end here so yeahhhhh

---

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[DocEspana]

I will go ahead and say something scandalous that I actually believe in order to derail this tangent and force it back onto the original track somehow.

I really think that it is a mistake to go to a for-profit school, the only one in america when: it is under a tenuous accreditation, when it is owned and ran by the guy who is also COO of one of the most disliked medical institutions in North America, when 83% of the medical schools in america *explicitly* ban for profit schools from ever qualifying for accreditation, when hospital rotation spots have been a bit contentious, and when plenty of residency directors are not above prejudice.

Under those thoughts, and with the admission that while I am well read in both anecdotal (Read: unreliable) and officially documented information on RVU but have never actual set eyes on the institution, I suggest it would be better to go to the caribbean than go there.

Now this is a absurd thing for me to say since I am a gigantic opponent of the caribbean schools and the, personal thought here, serial rape of clinical education they are performing upon the eastern seaboard. Yet I *still* think it would be better to go there, from a risk management point of view, than to RVU. Why this crazy stand? Because for all that i greatly dislike what the caribbean schools do, the people who come out of them (the... 40%...) are very well educated and are given an education that is generally respected and 'sorta accredited'

RVU can fold any minute (not saying it will... saying it could) and everyone would just plain be out of money. There is no guarantee or safety net. If their accreditation is denied all sorts of crap could happen. It doesnt have the stability and safety, especially given all the unusual complaints and hurdles it has to overcome that other schools never did. If I absolutely had to attend medical school right now and my choices were there or SGU, i'd get my sunblock packed.

Edit note: wow. this is my 100th post. I spend 99 posts grinding an axe against the overseas schools and what happens with my 100th post? This. Freaking fitting.

 

[CascadaFan]

Lol you assuming the opposite of what I am doesn't make your own argument any more of less valid ... Look the maybes and could bes in that last statement. Either way ... Highly doubt it was 5 minutes and I think or discussion has come to a logical end here so yeahhhhh

I'm sorry. I have literally no idea what you just said. So I will wrap this up...

Sometimes when I am driving I get so angry at inconsiderate drivers that I want to scream at them. But then I remember how insignificant that is, and I thank God that I have a car and my health and gas. That was phrased wrong - normally you wouldn't say, thank God I have gas.
Ellen DeGeneres, My Point and I Do Have One

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I will go ahead and say something scandalous that I actually believe in order to derail this tangent and force it back onto the original track somehow.

I really think that it is a mistake to go to a for-profit school, the only one in america when: it is under a tenuous accreditation, when it is owned and ran by the guy who is also COO of one of the most disliked medical institutions in North America, when 83% of the medical schools in america *explicitly* ban for profit schools from ever qualifying for accreditation, when hospital rotation spots have been a bit contentious, and when plenty of residency directors are not above prejudice.

Under those thoughts, and with the admission that while I am well read in both anecdotal (Read: unreliable) and officially documented information on RVU but have never actual set eyes on the institution, I suggest it would be better to go to the caribbean than go there.

Now this is a absurd thing for me to say since I am a gigantic opponent of the caribbean schools and the, personal thought here, serial rape of clinical education they are performing upon the eastern seaboard. Yet I *still* think it would be better to go there, from a risk management point of view, than to RVU. Why this crazy stand? Because for all that i greatly dislike what the caribbean schools do, the people who come out of them (the... 40%...) are very well educated and are given an education that is generally respected and 'sorta accredited'

RVU can fold any minute (not saying it will... saying it could) and everyone would just plain be out of money. There is no guarantee or safety net. If their accreditation is denied all sorts of crap could happen. It doesnt have the stability and safety, especially given all the unusual complaints and hurdles it has to overcome that other schools never did. If I absolutely had to attend medical school right now and my choices were there or SGU, i'd get my sunblock packed.

Edit note: wow. this is my 100th post. I spend 99 posts grinding an axe against the overseas schools and what happens with my 100th post? This. Freaking fitting.

I agree with your first 2 paragraphs. I find the rest of your post quite a bit overboard, which means all but the first 2 paragraphs rightfully belong in this thread.

 

[DocEspana]

I agree with your first 2 paragraphs. I find the rest of your post quite a bit overboard, which means all but the first 2 paragraphs rightfully belong in this thread.

i'll take it. No one dislikes the overseas schools on a personal level more than I do, but I also do respect the students that somehow make it through that pyramid scheme. I'll take the agreement for my cogent arguments and thank you. As for my crazy rant? I just want to illicit a "on topic" response about RVU, so i let out my craziest most whacked opinion possible to see if it could galvanize the commenters.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Instate,
Finally, how in the hell, as a resident, do you have the time or care enough to take time out of your life and call the rvu admissions office? Really?

I had the morning off. And the call took like 3 minutes.

Seriously? First, it takes all of 2 minutes to make a phone call. Second, he probably "care[d] enough" because he, like many other people on this forum, are devoted to the medical profession and education and finds RVU to be a danger to both. He's simply standing up for what he believes in and, unlike many people, is doing his research.

True

Cascada,

1. An md resident who is in no way affiliated with rvu doesn't just wake up one morning, take 30 seconds out of their life call rvu, and go about their day ...

I did.

Think about the pre and after time, effort, and energy that goes into that. Additionally, how is detracting time from learning medical skill and taking care of patients to call the admissions office of a random school bettering the collective medical future? Seems like the opposite to me

Seriously, the time looking for the number and calling took a grand total of 3 minutes.

Those 3 minutes didn't really detract from the learnin' of medical skills. Oh also, I had the morning off.

Cas,
To me, this doesn't sound like someone overtly concerned about the for profit issue or do education in general, it sounds like an odd personal vendetta. My guess is that if he cared, he'd be writing letters to the aoa and explaining to the admin office why he was calling. Let's call a spade a spade here.

I care but not enough to write a letter to the AOA. I have bigger fish to fry like the ACGME changing resident hours and writing a letter to them.

 

[JaggerPlate]

So no thoughts on the issue before making the call? You haven't spent hours on SDN debating this issue in threads? Didn't think about it beforehand? just sprung out of bed and picked up the phone like some sort of reflex huh? Totally. 3 minutes ... haven't spent a second more BEFORE or SINCE.

 

[DocEspana]

So no thoughts on the issue before making the call? You haven't spent hours on SDN debating this issue in threads? Didn't think about it beforehand? just sprung out of bed and picked up the phone like some sort of reflex huh? Totally. 3 minutes ... haven't spent a second more BEFORE or SINCE.

hey! hey!

stay on topic. I said something absurd and relevant to the real topic at hand and everyone is still debating how much time it takes to place a phone call and what the motivation behind it is. Lets just assume that in state woke up with an overwhelming urge to dig up some dirt on some place in colorado and the rampant pot use in boulder colorado was just too easy of a target.

 

[TheSeanieB]

.

 

[JaggerPlate]

If no one cared enough to take action, a lot more unsuspecting people may get taken advantage of. I think it is natural for people to have a desire to expose companies or individuals that are trying to take advantage of less knowledgable people.

Thank God for these unsung heroes. Who says altruism doesn't exist.

 

[JW08]

If no one cared enough to take action, a lot more unsuspecting people may get taken advantage of. I think it is natural for people to have a desire to expose companies or individuals that are trying to take advantage of less knowledgable people.

People who really care about others have lot better things to do than bash RVU, starting with providing some warm food in this cold for homeless people in Denver downtown (since SeanieB is from CO). People going there are educated, and don't need a pre-med to open their eyes. Some of the RVU faculty members are well known, excellent clinicians and teachers who left TCOM for RVU and if they didn't care, others will get over it.

 

[Fox800]

Lots of RVU bashing going on in this thread. I toured the campus last week and of course it's all new and shiny. One of my new friends is an OMS-2 and she has nothing but good things to say. Is it still unproven? Yes, but they're making really good progress. My overall impression is that the quality of eduation is very good. The issues with ownership, administration, accreditation...those are concerning, but the overall facilities, quality of instruction, staff that came over from TCOM...all that stuff is great. Plus Colorado is just awesome. I would love to hear some more from actual students.

 

[JW08]

Lots of RVU bashing going on in this thread. I toured the campus last week and of course it's all new and shiny. One of my new friends is an OMS-2 and she has nothing but good things to say. Is it still unproven? Yes, but they're making really good progress. My overall impression is that the quality of eduation is very good. The issues with ownership, administration, accreditation...those are concerning, but the overall facilities, quality of instruction, staff that came over from TCOM...all that stuff is great. Plus Colorado is just awesome. I would love to hear some more from actual students.

Actual students are sick of RVU bashing idiots, and are spending their time studying.

 

[MightyMoose]

I had the morning off. And the call took like 3 minutes.



True



I did.




Seriously, the time looking for the number and calling took a grand total of 3 minutes.

Those 3 minutes didn't really detract from the learnin' of medical skills. Oh also, I had the morning off.



I care but not enough to write a letter to the AOA. I have bigger fish to fry like the ACGME changing resident hours and writing a letter to them.

Dude... For real? You called on your morning off? You need to get a girlfriend or pick-up some hobbies...

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I would like to be an actual student at RVU... the campus was beautiful, and their Rural and Wilderness med track looks really cool...

 

[CascadaFan]

Dude... For real? You called on your morning off? You need to get a girlfriend or pick-up some hobbies...

So much venom, umadbro?

 

[Instatewaiter]

Dude... For real? You called on your morning off? You need to get a girlfriend or pick-up some hobbies...

Thanks. I'll let my wife know you think i need a girlfriend. I'll tell her MightyMoose on SDN told me I need to get one. She wasn't too receptive the last time I brought it up though. But since you said so, it will probably change her mind.

 

[CascadaFan]

Thanks. I'll let my wife know you think i need a girlfriend. I'll tell her MightyMoose on SDN told me I need to get one. She wasn't too receptive the last time I brought it up though. But since you said so, it will probably change her mind.

You need not defend yourself. I always find there's a lot of venom when people know they're wrong and are backed into a corner.

I think the fear people have about you is that you have something against DO's and from reading your past posts I know that's not true.

 

[MightyMoose]

Thanks. I'll let my wife know you think i need a girlfriend. I'll tell her MightyMoose on SDN told me I need to get one. She wasn't too receptive the last time I brought it up though. But since you said so, it will probably change her mind.

Regardless, the point still stands. Why spend all your time trying to smudge a schools reputation when it has no impact on your life? You're just making people feel bad, unnecessarily, for their decision to attend. If you want to post facts and debate for-profit vs non-profit, then go for it, but posting a random conversation from admissions and implying they mean one thing over another is just childish.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Regardless, the point still stands. Why spend all your time trying to smudge a schools reputation when it has no impact on your life? You're just making people feel bad, unnecessarily, for their decision to attend. If you want to post facts and debate for-profit vs non-profit, then go for it, but posting a random conversation from admissions and implying they mean one thing over another is just childish.

Look I have been debating the for-profit/not-for-profit argument against RVU on this site since before RVU even had their first class. I have been one of the most vocal opponents of RVU, outside of DOanes.

Quite frankly, students should feel bad that they sanction this school by going to it. They are not innocent bystanders and do share some of the blame.

The admissions office should know all the stats or at the very minimum not lie. If they don't know an answer they should just say so and then ask someone else who does. It is terrible to mislead prospective applicants with false data, especially when it is an outright lie. Shame on them.

 

[Kevin Baker]

Regardless, the point still stands. Why spend all your time trying to smudge a schools reputation when it has no impact on your life? You're just making people feel bad, unnecessarily, for their decision to attend. If you want to post facts and debate for-profit vs non-profit, then go for it, but posting a random conversation from admissions and implying they mean one thing over another is just childish.

Some people have a concern for the 'big picture' future of medicine in this country and recognize how risky the RVU situation is. We have America's first for profit medical school, which will decide if for profit medical schools becomes accepted in this country. We also have this school opening in a heavily under-served area, and this school will decide whether fast acting for profit institutions can address future physician shortfalls or whether we defer to the system of the past. Finally, RVU is a poignant example of the uniqueness of osteopathic medicine in America. Unlike the LCME which refuses to run any test cases on for profit education, COCA is allowing this. A huge failure will reflect poorly on osteopathic medicine, or at least the accrediting bodies, while success can lead to many great things. Imagine if for-profit medical education becomes the norm after RVU? This would all be attributed to COCA having the forethought to try something new while the stuffy old LCME was too high and mighty to fix the system.

I wish RVU all the best and am very interested in seeing what happens, but so far we have a school with direct operational connections to the Caribbean, that fired half of its board and its Dean within a year of opening, and that previously stated it would be transparent with board scores but isn't. The worry that certain posters have presented is very justified. And if the admissions office is lying to prospective applicants, that just adds to this justification. On the other hand, we have a school fulfilling a dire social need, is in a beautiful area, has great facilities, and proven faculty, so we'll see where all this goes.

I don't know why I typed that out for someone calling out a concerned citizen for having too much time on his hand. You're just making people feel bad, unnecessarily, for their decision to be concerned. If you want to post facts and debate for-profit vs non-profit, then go for it, but deriding a poster for calling the admissions office is just childish.

 

[JW08]

Some people have a concern for the 'big picture' future of medicine in this country and recognize how risky the RVU situation is. We have America's first for profit medical school, which will decide if for profit medical schools becomes accepted in this country. We also have this school opening in a heavily under-served area, and this school will decide whether fast acting for profit institutions can address future physician shortfalls or whether we defer to the system of the past. Finally, RVU is a poignant example of the uniqueness of osteopathic medicine in America. Unlike the LCME which refuses to run any test cases on for profit education, COCA is allowing this. A huge failure will reflect poorly on osteopathic medicine, or at least the accrediting bodies, while success can lead to many great things. Imagine if for-profit medical education becomes the norm after RVU? This would all be attributed to COCA having the forethought to try something new while the stuffy old LCME was too high and mighty to fix the system.

I wish RVU all the best and am very interested in seeing what happens, but so far we have a school with direct operational connections to the Caribbean, that fired half of its board and its Dean within a year of opening, and that previously stated it would be transparent with board scores but isn't. The worry that certain posters have presented is very justified. And if the admissions office is lying to prospective applicants, that just adds to this justification. On the other hand, we have a school fulfilling a dire social need, is in a beautiful area, has great facilities, and proven faculty, so we'll see where all this goes.

I don't know why I typed that out for someone calling out a concerned citizen for having too much time on his hand. You're just making people feel bad, unnecessarily, for their decision to be concerned. If you want to post facts and debate for-profit vs non-profit, then go for it, but deriding a poster for calling the admissions office is just childish.

I agree. With shortage of physician in the US, we are admitting FMGs into our residency programs. At least RVU students will be trained here in the US by the US teachers, in our hospitals and their quality of training will be superior to Caribbean.
Ofcourse there will be some troubles in the beginning like any school or business, and it will take time to remove kinks out of the whole process. As far as I know from SGA members, Dean and Phase directors are very receptive to students suggestions to improve curriculum and provide quality education. First let them provide good in class education, then comes rotations and eventually Residencies.
As long as RVU provide quality education and produce good doctors, this for profit/non-profit argument is a waste of time.

We all know health care in this country is nothing but FOR PROFIT.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Thanks. I'll let my wife know you think i need a girlfriend ... She wasn't too receptive the last time I brought it up though.

And nowwwww the thread is interesting

Look I have been debating the for-profit/not-for-profit argument against RVU on this site since before RVU even had their first class. I have been one of the most vocal opponents of RVU, outside of DOanes.

Quite frankly, students should feel bad that they sanction this school by going to it. They are not innocent bystanders and do share some of the blame.

The admissions office should know all the stats or at the very minimum not lie. If they don't know an answer they should just say so and then ask someone else who does. It is terrible to mislead prospective applicants with false data, especially when it is an outright lie. Shame on them.

A few things:

1. Despite what that "venom" kid keeps saying, I don't think many people on the boards think you're doing this because it's a DO school, I think most people understand that you're just against for-profit education (I understand as I am as well). However, the issue is that people aren't making the separation between someone being against the issue at hand and attacking them personally. Many people here aren't looking at this as an opportunity to think long and hard about RVU, how to proceed with this potential reputation (if they are already there) or whether or not to get involved with the university if they're an undergrad; they're looking at it as you attacking them, which, personally, I don't think is the case.

2. Having said that ... I'm confused about your motives. I'm not sure if you're really out to spread the word regarding for-profit education, or if this has just become a very interesting and exciting debate/topic for you to follow. There is really no shame in it either way, but I just get confused when you compare yourself to Dr. M (DOAnes) who speaks out against RVU (without hiding his identity) by writing letters to the AOA, COCA, DO president - anyone who will listen. I don't think he's ever placed an anonymous phone call to RVU, inquired about the admission stats/board pass rates, and then discussed it on SDN. This, personally, is where I find the contradiction and where I think you should clarify your motives.

If you're against RVU because of it's tax status and want to spread the word/correct pre-medical students who are lured in with shiny new buildings, patient simulators, and the promise of a university hospital - bravo, I'm all for it. However, if this is just something you're interested in, want to follow, find amusing, etc, I wish you'd just be more open about that so that and not hide behind anything else, because (like venom boy said) it just makes these debates snarky, exhausting, and irrelevant, and this is too important a topic to fall into the abyss of SDN.

 

[MightyMoose]

Look I have been debating the for-profit/not-for-profit argument against RVU on this site since before RVU even had their first class. I have been one of the most vocal opponents of RVU, outside of DOanes.

Quite frankly, students should feel bad that they sanction this school by going to it. They are not innocent bystanders and do share some of the blame.

The admissions office should know all the stats or at the very minimum not lie. If they don't know an answer they should just say so and then ask someone else who does. It is terrible to mislead prospective applicants with false data, especially when it is an outright lie. Shame on them.

I hate to say it, but you will be hard pressed to find an admissions office that has all their facts straight. This is because they are all understaffed and overworked. The last thing they have time for is someone who is calling not to discover facts, but find enough clues, whatever those may be, to further condemn the school. You are typecasting them into your stigma of a for-profit school, so even if you hear good things about the school, you will blow it off or turn it into a negative. You believed they would do horribly on the boards, they didn't. You now think they will do horribly in match placement and residency (this remains to be seen). You have clearly had a vendetta out for RVU for quite some time, by your own admission. So, I'm just calling a spade a spade. I don't see eye to eye with you on your politics, which is obvious (I've posted all about my philosophy on for profit schools in this thread and in the past), but good lord... Do you really have to go this far out of your way to find something else to throw at them? Let them graduate a few classes and see how they do. See what the school does. Give them a chance.

Some people have a concern for the 'big picture' future of medicine in this country and recognize how risky the RVU situation is. We have America's first for profit medical school, which will decide if for profit medical schools becomes accepted in this country. We also have this school opening in a heavily under-served area, and this school will decide whether fast acting for profit institutions can address future physician shortfalls or whether we defer to the system of the past. Finally, RVU is a poignant example of the uniqueness of osteopathic medicine in America. Unlike the LCME which refuses to run any test cases on for profit education, COCA is allowing this. A huge failure will reflect poorly on osteopathic medicine, or at least the accrediting bodies, while success can lead to many great things. Imagine if for-profit medical education becomes the norm after RVU? This would all be attributed to COCA having the forethought to try something new while the stuffy old LCME was too high and mighty to fix the system.

I wish RVU all the best and am very interested in seeing what happens, but so far we have a school with direct operational connections to the Caribbean, that fired half of its board and its Dean within a year of opening, and that previously stated it would be transparent with board scores but isn't. The worry that certain posters have presented is very justified. And if the admissions office is lying to prospective applicants, that just adds to this justification. On the other hand, we have a school fulfilling a dire social need, is in a beautiful area, has great facilities, and proven faculty, so we'll see where all this goes.

I don't know why I typed that out for someone calling out a concerned citizen for having too much time on his hand. You're just making people feel bad, unnecessarily, for their decision to be concerned. If you want to post facts and debate for-profit vs non-profit, then go for it, but deriding a poster for calling the admissions office is just childish.

A quick history check will show you that RVU isn't the first for-profit institution. Most... scratch that... All medical schools began as for-profit institutions prior to the Fletchner Report which is when the majority of standards were put into place (accreditation, etc.). Now that is an interesting point though, because the for-profit model didn't work in the past, and I'm not sure if it will work now. Assuming these schools don't turn into diploma mills again, which at this point seems unlikely, I think they could be very beneficial to medical education.

I must say though, I agree with most of your points. There obviously is some cause for concern and it is certainly worth keeping a watchful eye on RVU, but my beef with Instatewaiter is not because he is a concerned citizen. It is because he just likes to flame RVU. He jumps at every opportunity, real or not, to slam the school. I can understand his points and his concern, because I have them myself, but I don't understand the way he goes about it. He is constantly berating the school, students, administration, etc. and I just don't feel it's necessary. I think every mistake RVU makes is amplified and every good thing they do is diminished. I think time will tell with RVU, but constantly knocking the place just to knock it doesn't sit well with me.

 

[MightyMoose]

And nowwwww the thread is interesting




A few things:

1. Despite what that "venom" kid keeps saying, I don't think many people on the boards think you're doing this because it's a DO school, I think most people understand that you're just against for-profit education (I understand as I am as well). However, the issue is that people aren't making the separation between someone being against the issue at hand and attacking them personally. Many people here aren't looking at this as an opportunity to think long and hard about RVU, how to proceed with this potential reputation (if they are already there) or whether or not to get involved with the university if they're an undergrad;they're looking at it as you attacking them, which, personally, I don't think is the case.

2. Having said that ... I'm confused about your motives. I'm not sure if you're really out to spread the word regarding for-profit education, or if this has just become a very interesting and exciting debate/topic for you to follow. There is really no shame in it either way, but I just get confused when you compare yourself to Dr. M (DOAnes) who speaks out against RVU (without hiding his identity) by writing letters to the AOA, COCA, DO president - anyone who will listen. I don't think he's ever placed an anonymous phone call to RVU, inquired about the admission stats/board pass rates, and then discussed it on SDN. This, personally, is where I find the contradiction and where I think you should clarify your motives.

If you're against RVU because of it's tax status and want to spread the word/correct pre-medical students who are lured in with shiny new buildings, patient simulators, and the promise of a university hospital - bravo, I'm all for it. However, if this is just something you're interested in, want to follow, find amusing, etc, I wish you'd just be more open about that so that and not hide behind anything else, because (like venom boy said) it just makes these debates snarky, exhausting, and irrelevant, and this is too important a topic to fall into the abyss of SDN.

I completely agree with you. This is my beef with Instatewaiter... However, I will not poise the statement so diplomatically. I think he's just out to get his rocks off at the expense of RVU and anyone associated with it.

 

[kuanileqa]

Look I have been debating the for-profit/not-for-profit argument against RVU on this site since before RVU even had their first class. I have been one of the most vocal opponents of RVU, outside of DOanes.

Quite frankly, students should feel bad that they sanction this school by going to it. They are not innocent bystanders and do share some of the blame.

The admissions office should know all the stats or at the very minimum not lie. If they don't know an answer they should just say so and then ask someone else who does. It is terrible to mislead prospective applicants with false data, especially when it is an outright lie. Shame on them.

Man, I feel bad now for applying there now. I feel like I am personally fueling the demise of medicine as we know it. Next time I am feeling bad about the where the medical profession is going, Imma jus' call the RVU admissions office and drill some poor employee making $10 an hour.

 

[kuanileqa]

I completely agree with you. This is my beef with Instatewaiter... However, I will not poise the statement so diplomatically. I think he's just out to get his rocks off at the expense of RVU and anyone associated with it.

Or jollies....?

 

[MightyMoose]

Man, I feel bad now for applying there now. I feel like I am personally fueling the demise of medicine as we know it. Next time I am feeling bad about the where the medical profession is going, Imma jus' call the RVU admissions office and drill some poor employee making $10 an hour.

Don't forget to post about it when you're done.

 

[DocEspana]

We all know health care in this country is nothing but FOR PROFIT.

just point of information. Nearly all hospitals, and every one i've ever seen, are not-for-profit institutions. As are any doctor who accepts health insurance.

the only parts of healthcare that are for-profit are cash practices and insurance companies (even then... its a tenuous link since their prices are derived from what medicare pays and medicare is not-for-profit)

just giving some info. The for-profit vs not-for-profit is very hard to distinguish sometimes. in educations its not neccessarily hard, but in education the difference comes in 'things they could do'. In healthcare the difference is largely due to what limitatons they play within.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

just point of information. Nearly all hospitals, and every one i've ever seen, are not-for-profit institutions. As are any doctor who accepts health insurance.

the only parts of healthcare that are for-profit are cash practices and insurance companies (even then... its a tenuous link since their prices are derived from what medicare pays and medicare is not-for-profit)

just giving some info. The for-profit vs not-for-profit is very hard to distinguish sometimes. in educations its not neccessarily hard, but in education the difference comes in 'things they could do'. In healthcare the difference is largely due to what limitatons they play within.

I think JW was just saying, despite the "label" that one says it is, it doesn't necessarily mean anything except that the hospital gets better tax incentives. I worked at a "non-profit" hospital for about 3 years and they seemed to be the most bottom line, money driven place I've ever worked at. Once they started requiring us clinical lab personel to attended Lean Six Sigma conferences, that was the day I started looking for another job. The hospital system now owns a majority of the hospitals in my state and everyone knows their "non-profit" tag is a bunch of bullpuckey.
Numbers get fudged, people are making huge profits off of these "non-profit" organizations everyday.

 

[JW08]

Nearly all hospitals, and every one i've ever seen, are not-for-profit institutions. As are any doctor who accepts health insurance.

How is it that any doctor that accepts health insurance is not-for-profit? Its necessity and they have to take insurance to stay in business because majority of the people have insurance.

Hospitals might be, but what about doctors and their private practices. Isn't majority of specialist & primary care (fam, ob-gyn, ped...) are running private practice for profit.

 

[kuanileqa]

I think JW was just saying, despite the "label" that one says it is, it doesn't necessarily mean anything except that the hospital gets better tax incentives. I worked at a "non-profit" hospital for about 3 years and they seemed to be the most bottom line, money driven place I've ever worked at. Once they started requiring us clinical lab personel to attended Lean Six Sigma conferences, that was the day I started looking for another job. The hospital system now owns a majority of the hospitals in my state and everyone knows their "non-profit" tag is a bunch of bullpuckey.
Numbers get fudged, people are making huge profits off of these "non-profit" organizations everyday.

+1. That is why it is almost commendable for RVU to eliminate the front and just come out and say, "Why yes, we are trying to make money"--instead of routing money through foundations, other NPOs, and "charitable contributions" which ultimately end up paying for somebody's million dollar cabin in Jackson Hole (which happens to be conveniently located next door to the RVU chancellor's million dollar cabin).

 

[Instatewaiter]

2. Having said that ... I'm confused about your motives.

To clarify, I called RVU to get the updated board scores since scores from every student are back... Instead of the cumulative data, what I got was a little ridiculous.

I hate to say it, but you will be hard pressed to find an admissions office that has all their facts straight.

Yeah, that's not true. Every single school I applied to knew the stats for their school. It takes what, a 30 minute session to learn what pre-meds are going to ask... Not exactly a lot to ask. I mean does PCOM give the same kind of BS when you call in... I doubt it.


What in RVU's history makes you think we should give them the benefit of the doubt?
So let's recap just so we have some context about RVU:
1) The chancellor owns AUC... which has a pretty crappy record and a terrible attrition rate

2) they claimed they were going to set up ?300+ residency slots- they have yet to start a single one

3) When the dean disagreed with the chancellor he and most of the board was fired

4) They have been less than transparent about their rotation slots

5) They were going to be transparent about board scores- they have manipulated the stats that they sent to their own students and then haven't published any of the data.

You believed they would do horribly on the boards, they didn't.

Actually they did do poorly- very poorly. The top 80% of the class had a less than average pass rate. You take the top 80% of any other school and you get either a 100% pass rate or high 90s- NOT below average

 

[Instatewaiter]

There obviously is some cause for concern and it is certainly worth keeping a watchful eye on RVU, but my beef with Instatewaiter is not because he is a concerned citizen. It is because he just likes to flame RVU. He jumps at every opportunity, real or not, to slam the school.

Buddy, if I was just flaming RVU, I would have disappeared years ago. Instead, I have been having this debate about RVU since you were in high school... and basically everything I have said has come to fruition
- The board was just for show
- would not create residencies
- would have terrible board scores
- rotations wouldn't be great... and they're not

My goal is to make people realize that they should stay away from RVU if they have any other options.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Perhaps you all think this is just propaganda... and perhaps it is.. but you can't really argue with any of the facts. If PCOM were to do half of the crap that RVU does people would be up in arms.

 

[powersr8810]

Just putting in my two cents...

I turned down my acceptance here last month. A big part of the decision was due to this very subject, I felt more comfortable at a school that didn't have to defend itself against this sort of thing. Although, it was a really nice campus in a beautiful area, gotta give em points for that.

 

[DocEspana]

How is it that any doctor that accepts health insurance is not-for-profit? Its necessity and they have to take insurance to stay in business because majority of the people have insurance.

Hospitals might be, but what about doctors and their private practices. Isn't majority of specialist & primary care (fam, ob-gyn, ped...) are running private practice for profit.

its mostly based on how they cannot dictate their own fees for service. Clearly the doctor is making a profit, but because the not-for-profit laws having nothing to do with making a profit and everything to do with *what* you're allowed to do to secure a profit.

its for that reason that a for-profit med school is so risky. They are currently doing very little that is unique from any other medical school. But they have the freedom to do some crazy things if need be to secure a profit. There is almost nothing limiting their business practice except that they need people willing to pay what they ask for what their offering, and can re-word contracts year to year.

 

[Easy C]

Im curious where this claim that RVU would create residency spots came from?

People keep saying didn't RVU say this and I heard this, concerning Residency spots, but from web searches and news releases (web searched also) on anything publicized by the public or RVU I have yet to find anything on this subject. If anyone has one please take a screen shot, provide a link, or show some evidence of this.

Which leads me to ask, How does a school "create" residency spots? I only have two ways in my mind. They open up a teaching Hospital (something I would think is more long term for RVU if its even being considered), or do they subsidize or pay a hospital that has spots so that they open up new residency spots? If they pay a hospital then how does a school go about selecting which kind of residency spot they want to subsidize/pay for?

Not a sermon, just a question.

 

[Easy C]

I just called the admissions office and the girl there told me they were definitely above the average for board scores and the dean thinks they will be in the 90th percentile next year because they are in the 75th percentile now...

I didn't know below average was 75th percentile. Perhaps what she meant is that they think 90% will pass the boards next year because only 75% did this year. I'm just speculating though.

If you don't have the data that says your school is good... might as well lie to applicants. Way to go RVU

Playing on the semantics of this comment. For a first time board score of a 75th percentile is pretty good to me. Im going to point out that there is a difference in 75 percent and being in the 75th percentile. Until you understand percentiles please dont comment.

Now this would lead me to want clarification on if the students where, as a whole, in the 75th percentile or if the school was. Difference being 75th percentile for the students shows where RVU's 3rd year students sit in comparison to other 3rd year students, which is not stellar but for the first set of students taking the exam is not bad. If RVU is in the 75th percentile as a school (when comparing school averages to other schools) then that to me rocks!

 

[JW08]

Playing on the semantics of this comment. For a first time board score of a 75th percentile is pretty good to me. Im going to point out that there is a difference in 75 percent and being in the 75th percentile. Until you understand percentiles please dont comment.

Now this would lead me to want clarification on if the students where, as a whole, in the 75th percentile or if the school was. Difference being 75th percentile for the students shows where RVU's 3rd year students sit in comparison to other 3rd year students, which is not stellar but for the first set of students taking the exam is not bad. If RVU is in the 75th percentile as a school (when comparing school averages to other schools) then that to me rocks!

So far only one class has taken boards, and thanks to people like Instatewaiver who are spreading fears about RVU, they didn't get the best applicants the very first year. Administrative power play and curriculum organization may have caused some issues too. Its a medical school for Gods sake, even a kool aid stand takes some time to organize.

Let wait for the second class to take boards, and see the improvements, and then the third.

 

[Kevin Baker]

Playing on the semantics of this comment. For a first time board score of a 75th percentile is pretty good to me. Im going to point out that there is a difference in 75 percent and being in the 75th percentile. Until you understand percentiles please dont comment.

Now this would lead me to want clarification on if the students where, as a whole, in the 75th percentile or if the school was. Difference being 75th percentile for the students shows where RVU's 3rd year students sit in comparison to other 3rd year students, which is not stellar but for the first set of students taking the exam is not bad. If RVU is in the 75th percentile as a school (when comparing school averages to other schools) then that to me rocks!

I think you missed the sarcasm in the post you are referring to and I want to clarify that it is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE that RVU's first time board scores were in the upper 75th percentile. The lower 75th percentile is possible. We can infer the top 85-90% of students had a slightly below average pass rate of 87%. Not bad for an opening class.

I wish there was better proof than SDN heresy but certain administrators won't release data they previously promised to release. Even if that other 10-15% of students had a 100% pass rate, they'd be below the 75th percentile at an 88-89% pass rate.

My guess is the true pass rate is lower than 87%, but the fact that admissions is lying to interested parties and not disclosing this info is worrisome.

 

[LionsDO]

This topic

 

[DocEspana]

Im curious where this claim that RVU would create residency spots came from?

People keep saying didn't RVU say this and I heard this, concerning Residency spots, but from web searches and news releases (web searched also) on anything publicized by the public or RVU I have yet to find anything on this subject. If anyone has one please take a screen shot, provide a link, or show some evidence of this.

Which leads me to ask, How does a school "create" residency spots? I only have two ways in my mind. They open up a teaching Hospital (something I would think is more long term for RVU if its even being considered), or do they subsidize or pay a hospital that has spots so that they open up new residency spots? If they pay a hospital then how does a school go about selecting which kind of residency spot they want to subsidize/pay for?

Not a sermon, just a question.

med schools can't create residency spots. Even if you build a 'university hospital,' it doesn't get residency spots until the federal government decides it wants to expand the GME program. Which it really doesn't since GME = Medicare. I know that a handful of new residencies appear in each region of the US each year, but it totals out to be a very limited number of new spots. Having verbal and/or written agreements with existing hospitals that they will fight to secure a residency program for themselves is a long term, but legitimate option.

building teaching hospital is an even more long term option as filling up enough residency spots to create a real 'teaching hospital' as opposed to a 'regular hospital with residencies' will take quite a few cycles of GME expansion. and GME expansion happens every couple years, not exactly regularly. Saying you will 'create' residencies is a very tenuous play on terminologies. Only the federal government controls that stuff, hospitals can simply advocate to be chosen.

 

[pdeco1]

Just to clarify. FOR PROFIT hospitals do exist. HCA is the largest and for what its worth the company and its CEO Rick Scott defrauded medicare out hundreds of million of dollars. A far right leaning company, surprise?

What did Rick Scott get? Well he is now the governor of Florida!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For-profit_hospital

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_Corporation_of_America

For profit schools? Well many universities are non profit yet there president, chancellor and football coach make well into the millions of dollars each year.

 

[DocEspana]

Just to clarify. FOR PROFIT hospitals do exist. HCA is the largest and for what its worth the company and its CEO Rick Scott defrauded medicare out hundreds of million of dollars. A far right leaning company, surprise?

What did Rick Scott get? Well he is now the governor of Florida!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For-profit_hospital

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_Corporation_of_America

For profit schools? Well many universities are non profit yet there president, chancellor and football coach make well into the millions of dollars each year.

Oh i know they exist. They are massively criticized for being the only people more cold to patients than HMOs. But, he should be a governor. Do not forget that this guy *made money*. Someone who proves they know where to cut costs and where to deny payment will make a great governor because they can assure that money isnt lost by properly divvying it up and denying it to projects which dont deserve it.

however, i fully believe it is an ethical violation to run a hospital this way. You shoulnt be able to deny treatment or care if it is no longer in the hospitals best interest to do so. Its not like the hospital kicks the people out, mind you, they just ship the less profitable people out to other hospitals as soon as they are stabilized. Thats the big accusation against for-profit hospitals.

and again, the difference between for-profit and nfp is in what you can and cannot do to assure a profit flow. It has NOTHING to do with earning a profit. It has to do with how many regulations you have to follow.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Playing on the semantics of this comment. For a first time board score of a 75th percentile is pretty good to me. Im going to point out that there is a difference in 75 percent and being in the 75th percentile. Until you understand percentiles please dont comment.

Thank you for clarifying that. I didn't realize there was a difference between percent and percentile.


Let me clarify for you: The top 80-85% of the class took the boards and only 87% of those passed. That is below the national average- ie not 75th percentile.
We don't have the results from the rest of the class (which is why I called), but since they were the bottom 15-20% of the class we can safely assume they didn't do better than the top 80% of the class and probably brought down the average even further.

med schools can't create residency spots. Even if you build a 'university hospital,' it doesn't get residency spots until the federal government decides it wants to expand the GME program. Which it really doesn't since GME = Medicare.

Saying you will 'create' residencies is a very tenuous play on terminologies. Only the federal government controls that stuff, hospitals can simply advocate to be chosen.

Acutally a med school could create residencies by funding those spots itself ... but that was the entire issue when RVU first brought it up. They can say it but they were never going to spend $100K per residency spot. Of course most applicants would not realize that and so they would be mislead.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Thank you for clarifying that. I didn't realize there was a difference between percent and percentile.


Let me clarify for you: The top 80-85% of the class took the boards and only 87% of those passed. That is below the national average- ie not 75th percentile.
We don't have the results from the rest of the class (which is why I called), but since they were the bottom 15-20% of the class we can safely assume they didn't do better than the top 80% of the class and probably brought down the average even further.

Watching a few schools go through the "first year blues" on SDN the past few years 87% pass is quite respectable for a first class. I have no idea what it actually ended up being with the bottom 15-20% but I think anything over 85% for a first year class is fairly good. At least what I've noticed from LMU and PNWUs first class pass rate. Also didn't Touro-NY have a pass rate of 78% just a year or so ago?

 

[DocEspana]

Acutally a med school could create residencies by funding those spots itself ... but that was the entire issue when RVU first brought it up. They can say it but they were never going to spend $100K per residency spot. Of course most applicants would not realize that and so they would be mislead.

under the affordable care act each hospital receives, on average, $150,000 per year per resident. RVU will *never* pay that since that is roughly what 4 years at RVU costs, just for one year. That would be the epitome of bad business. Collecting money for four years from people in order to give it back to them (or really, their employer) in first year of a 3-7 year deal.

 

[DocEspana]

Watching a few schools go through the "first year blues" on SDN the past few years 87% pass is quite respectable for a first class. I have no idea what it actually ended up being with the bottom 15-20% but I think anything over 85% for a first year class is fairly good. At least what I've noticed from LMU and PNWUs first class pass rate. Also didn't NYCOM have a pass rate of 78% just a year or so ago?

yea that 78% was probably TouroCOM where our first ever class got 78% first time pass rate. Our second class got an 88% pass rate. Both were with 100% of students taking it and reporting in. Apparently we are considering some sort of program to weed out a few of the weaker students and suggest they repeat and/or defer rather than take it. But I only heard about this in 'planning' stages and even then it would only be recommended not manditory.

Either way, the pass rates of new schools are often like that. I wouldnt read into it at all except that there seems to be some creative stat-keeping where only a certain percentage of the student body was counted in the statistic. When touro's first class comes in with the first class blues we reported it clearly.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

yea that 78% was probably TouroCOM where our first ever class got 78% first time pass rate. Our second class got an 88% pass rate. Both were with 100% of students taking it and reporting in. Apparently we are considering some sort of program to weed out a few of the weaker students and suggest they repeat and/or defer rather than take it. But I only heard about this in 'planning' stages and even then it would only be recommended not manditory.

Either way, the pass rates of new schools are often like that. I wouldnt read into it at all except that there seems to be some creative stat-keeping where only a certain percentage of the student body was counted in the statistic. When touro's first class comes in with the first class blues we reported it clearly.

Whoops, thought it was NYCOM...changed my initial post. I do agree with you though that almost all schools, good or bad, are normally very transparent with their board numbers. Just saying how the top 80-85% did is fairly sketchy, and I'm sure skewing the numbers in their favor. Instate just SEEMED overly concerned with the first class having an 87% board pass rate and wanted to put it into perspective of other first year classes.