Rosalind Franklin BMS 2015-2016

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Should we attend BMS?

  • Yes

    Votes: 42 68.9%
  • NO

    Votes: 19 31.1%

  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .
Okay, 1) what was the total of BMSer enrolled last year?
2) How many (~) dropped out ?
3) How many (~) wished NOT to matriculate into CMS?
4) Total BMSers accepted into CMS as of now?
5) Remaining BMSers who wish to matriculate?

Many Thanks!

Not sure about last year, you will find some numbers on the thread from last year but last year is not too relevant, things change from year to year.

The vast majority are aiming for CMS, but there's a few looking to do PA and things like that. Probably 10 or fewer though would be my best guess.

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in my little poll I included in this thread, 12 people said not to attend BMS. I am interested to know why you think that if you said no in my poll. It would be very helpful.
 
in my little poll I included in this thread, 12 people said not to attend BMS. I am interested to know why you think that if you said no in my poll. It would be very helpful.

Prospective BMSers should probably wait until the end of the BMS year when current BMSers will elaborate on their experiences with the program. It is still too early to tell how this year will end.
 
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Help!

I received an email about my application today saying that they did not receive my MCAT score. I only entered it in with my AMCAS ID?

Was I supposed to contact AMCAS and request it from them?
 
in my little poll I included in this thread, 12 people said not to attend BMS. I am interested to know why you think that if you said no in my poll. It would be very helpful.
I'm curious, is there anything stopping future BMSers from sabotaging this poll? (ie, your fellow applicants voting no, in an attempt to eliminate the competition)
 
Help!

I received an email about my application today saying that they did not receive my MCAT score. I only entered it in with my AMCAS ID?

Was I supposed to contact AMCAS and request it from them?
When I called admissions, they said we should also send the MCAT THx PDF to [email protected]
 
Few questions:

Does anyone know the cost of this program?

Where do most students live?

Do most apply for medical school during the duration of the program or wait till it ends?

And what do you guys like about this program?

Thank you for taking the time to answer in advance.!
 
I'm curious, is there anything stopping future BMSers from sabotaging this poll? (ie, your fellow applicants voting no, in an attempt to eliminate the competition)
there's nothing stopping them from being trolls. but there'd be no point since no matter what they'll take in 100+ students.
 
in my little poll I included in this thread, 12 people said not to attend BMS. I am interested to know why you think that if you said no in my poll. It would be very helpful.

some reasons i gather from the old BMS threads

1. too expensive; maybe $50k+ for a ~50% shot at CMS is too high risk
2. the bms degree itself is useless if you don't get in CMS
3. other SMP/DO acceptances
4. give up med dream :shrug:

if i'm wrong someone please correct me
 
It's interesting to see how some are viewing the percentage of BMSers getting into CMS as their 'chance' or 'shot' of getting in. It's not like your flipping a coin, and if it's heads, you'll get in. You're deciding your fate. I just want to briefly share my story because I know it helped last year get a feel of how the process works.

I came into the program off the waitlist with a bad GPA (basically 3.0 w/ retakes) and a high MCAT (29-32). I spent too much time partying my first couple of years in college and obviously paid the price. I came into the program super motivated and ready to bust my hump since day 1. By far, the hardest year of my life in terms of studying. I was basically in the library from 9-6, everyday. It's important to realize that some of the questions (especially in CMCB and Neuro) are incredibly trivial and refer to a minor detail in the notes and it's by getting those questions right that you can separate yourself from other students. This is where the extra library time pays off to some extent. It's obviously important to know the important stuff really well and make sure to not miss those high yield questions in the test.

My goal from the beginning of the year was to get in as early as possible, that way I could plan my summer and not be stressed during the last quarter. I got As in CMCB and Biochem, and will most likely get two As in Neuro and Physio. I took my interview very seriously and did some extra curricular activities so my application was blank. It paid off and I got into CMS within the first two waves.

I view the BMS program as having three types of students. The first, those that work efficiently, put a lot of hours in the library, and are good learners/studiers/test-takers. That type of student usually gets in and does well during the BMS year. The second is the student isn't a 100% motivated to be in the program. They don't have a good study schedule, don't really learn the stuff too well and have sub-par results. Those won't get in. The third is the student who puts in a ton of hours in the library, is present at every lecture but isn't the best learner or test-taker. Those students usually finish with Bs and some of them won't get in, some of them won't. I was told in the beginning of the year, not every B is created the same. Adcoms see the percentage of your final grade and those with high Bs will most likely get in, while the ones with low Bs will not. That being said, there are always exceptions, and that's where the rumour mill begins to churn and people jump to conclusions.

My advise to applicants for the upcoming year: Identify what type of student you will be in this program. If you were able to get all As for one semester with hard science courses, then you probably can reciprocate during the BMS year. However, don't look at the percentage of people getting as an indication of your personal chances. It's pretty simple, if you get all As - you will get in (unless your a raving lunatic and adcoms can see that). If you had a hard time in college when you were taking many upper science course and also studied a lot, then maybe this program isn't for you. Another thing to note is that if you're getting all lower Bs or Cs in the program, you probably won't perform super well in regular med school.
 
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It's interesting to see how some are viewing the percentage of BMSers getting into CMS as their 'chance' or 'shot' of getting in. It's not like your flipping a coin, and if it's heads, you'll get in. You're deciding your fate. I just want to briefly share my story because I know it helped last year get a feel of how the process works.

I came into the program off the waitlist with a bad GPA (basically 3.0 w/ retakes) and a high MCAT (29-32). I spent too much time partying my first couple of years in college and obviously paid the price. I came into the program super motivated and ready to bust my hump since day 1. By far, the hardest year of my life in terms of studying. I was basically in the library from 9-6, everyday. It's important to realize that some of the questions (especially in CMCB and Neuro) are incredibly trivial and refer to a minor detail in the notes and it's by getting those questions right that you can separate yourself from other students. This is where the extra library time pays off to some extent. It's obviously important to know the important stuff really well and make sure to not miss those high yield questions in the test.

My goal from the beginning of the year was to get in as early as possible, that way I could plan my summer and not be stressed during the last quarter. I got As in CMCB and Biochem, and will most likely get two As in Neuro and Physio. I took my interview very seriously and did some extra curricular activities so my application was blank. It paid off and I got into CMS within the first two waves.

I view the BMS program as having three types of students. The first, those that work efficiently, put a lot of hours in the library, and are good learners/studiers/test-takers. That type of student usually gets in and does well during the BMS year. The second is the student isn't a 100% motivated to be in the program. They don't have a good study schedule, don't really learn the stuff too well and have sub-par results. Those won't get in. The third is the student who puts in a ton of hours in the library, is present at every lecture but isn't the best learner or test-taker. Those students usually finish with Bs and some of them won't get in, some of them won't. I was told in the beginning of the year, not every B is created the same. Adcoms see the percentage of your final grade and those with high Bs will most likely get in, while the ones with low Bs will not. That being said, there are always exceptions, and that's where the rumour mill begins to churn and people jump to conclusions.

My advise to applicants for the upcoming year: Identify what type of student you will be in this program. If you were able to get all As for one semester with hard science courses, then you probably can reciprocate during the BMS year. However, don't look at the percentage of people getting as an indication of your personal chances. It's pretty simple, if you get all As - you will get in (unless your a raving lunatic and adcoms can see that). If you had a hard time in college when you were taking many upper science course and also studied a lot, then maybe this program isn't for you. Another thing to note is that if you're getting all lower Bs or Cs in the program, you probably won't perform super well in regular med school.
It's interesting to see how some are viewing the percentage of BMSers getting into CMS as their 'chance' or 'shot' of getting in. It's not like your flipping a coin, and if it's heads, you'll get in. You're deciding your fate. I just want to briefly share my story because I know it helped last year get a feel of how the process works.

I came into the program off the waitlist with a bad GPA (basically 3.0 w/ retakes) and a high MCAT (29-32). I spent too much time partying my first couple of years in college and obviously paid the price. I came into the program super motivated and ready to bust my hump since day 1. By far, the hardest year of my life in terms of studying. I was basically in the library from 9-6, everyday. It's important to realize that some of the questions (especially in CMCB and Neuro) are incredibly trivial and refer to a minor detail in the notes and it's by getting those questions right that you can separate yourself from other students. This is where the extra library time pays off to some extent. It's obviously important to know the important stuff really well and make sure to not miss those high yield questions in the test.

My goal from the beginning of the year was to get in as early as possible, that way I could plan my summer and not be stressed during the last quarter. I got As in CMCB and Biochem, and will most likely get two As in Neuro and Physio. I took my interview very seriously and did some extra curricular activities so my application was blank. It paid off and I got into CMS within the first two waves.

I view the BMS program as having three types of students. The first, those that work efficiently, put a lot of hours in the library, and are good learners/studiers/test-takers. That type of student usually gets in and does well during the BMS year. The second is the student isn't a 100% motivated to be in the program. They don't have a good study schedule, don't really learn the stuff too well and have sub-par results. Those won't get in. The third is the student who puts in a ton of hours in the library, is present at every lecture but isn't the best learner or test-taker. Those students usually finish with Bs and some of them won't get in, some of them won't. I was told in the beginning of the year, not every B is created the same. Adcoms see the percentage of your final grade and those with high Bs will most likely get in, while the ones with low Bs will not. That being said, there are always exceptions, and that's where the rumour mill begins to churn and people jump to conclusions.

My advise to applicants for the upcoming year: Identify what type of student you will be in this program. If you were able to get all As for one semester with hard science courses, then you probably can reciprocate during the BMS year. However, don't look at the percentage of people getting as an indication of your personal chances. It's pretty simple, if you get all As - you will get in (unless your a raving lunatic and adcoms can see that). If you had a hard time in college when you were taking many upper science course and also studied a lot, then maybe this program isn't for you. Another thing to note is that if you're getting all lower Bs or Cs in the program, you probably won't perform super well in regular med school.
 
Help Please,

I got accepted at one of my top choice DO school and RFU BMS program. DO admission deposit is due in couple days. I am a non traditional and it is my first application cycle. sGPA 3.8, cGPA 3.84, MCAT 26 (PS 10, VR 6, BS 10). Do you think I should risk decline DO acceptance just because I want to attend a MD school. I read this year and last year RFU BMS thread, this program is a huge gamble. But I believe I can perform well. I will greatly appreciate any help! Thanks in advance!
 
Help Please,

I got accepted at one of my top choice DO school and RFU BMS program. DO admission deposit is due in couple days. I am a non traditional and it is my first application cycle. sGPA 3.8, cGPA 3.84, MCAT 26 (PS 10, VR 6, BS 10). Do you think I should risk decline DO acceptance just because I want to attend a MD school. I read this year and last year RFU BMS thread, this program is a huge gamble. But I believe I can perform well. I will greatly appreciate any help! Thanks in advance!
Turning down an acceptance to medical school would be a foolish idea. As you said, this program is a gamble and your GPA is already competitive.
 
Help Please,

I got accepted at one of my top choice DO school and RFU BMS program. DO admission deposit is due in couple days. I am a non traditional and it is my first application cycle. sGPA 3.8, cGPA 3.84, MCAT 26 (PS 10, VR 6, BS 10). Do you think I should risk decline DO acceptance just because I want to attend a MD school. I read this year and last year RFU BMS thread, this program is a huge gamble. But I believe I can perform well. I will greatly appreciate any help! Thanks in advance!

From my own subjective experience, it seems that DOs and MDs are virtually the same thing. (especially with the matching system converging in the near future) That being said, if you know that you want to try and match into a competitive speciality (derm/surgery/rad/ect...) then the path of least resistance would be through an MD school. If your focus is more primary care, then without any hesitation, attend the DO school.

I think your MCAT seems to indicate you had trouble with verbal and did pretty well on bio and physics. If I had to relate the BMS course to one section on the MCAT, it would have to be the bio. This with your high GPA and the right mentality should hopefully indicate that you should do well in the program.

Again, I'm just a guy with a computer and an internet connection. My opinion doesn't mean that it's the right one and until sit in an Adcom session, I don't know exactly what it takes to get into CMS. I strongly suggest that you ask yourself can you succeed in this program. Where you able to do really well during your undergrad when you were taking a lot of upper science courses during one semester. It's a gamble to turn down a DO acceptance for an SMP, but if you know you can succeed and are highly motivated, then it's not a gamble but an investment in your future, which is always the right decision.
 
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Help Please,

I got accepted at one of my top choice DO school and RFU BMS program. DO admission deposit is due in couple days. I am a non traditional and it is my first application cycle. sGPA 3.8, cGPA 3.84, MCAT 26 (PS 10, VR 6, BS 10). Do you think I should risk decline DO acceptance just because I want to attend a MD school. I read this year and last year RFU BMS thread, this program is a huge gamble. But I believe I can perform well. I will greatly appreciate any help! Thanks in advance!

Doing the RFU BMS would be a complete waste of money for you. You have a great gpa- why would you waste 50k+ on an SMP when what you needed was just a better MCAT score if you wanted to go MD. Spend 1-2K and 3-4 months on studying for the MCAT and save yourself a ton of money. SMPs are for low gpa, high MCAT. It's complete overkill for people in your position. If you do poorly in the SMP, then it will be game over for you and very difficult to get into any medical school.... MD or DO.

I would take the DO acceptance and move on to the next stage of my life. Why would you turn down an actual medical school acceptance to pursue a chance at a medical school acceptance? But if you are really intent on pursuing MD, study the 3-4 months for the MCAT and retake instead of wasting a whole year and all this money on a program that is of limited utility and a completely unnecessary gamble for you.
 
Help Please,

I got accepted at one of my top choice DO school and RFU BMS program. DO admission deposit is due in couple days. I am a non traditional and it is my first application cycle. sGPA 3.8, cGPA 3.84, MCAT 26 (PS 10, VR 6, BS 10). Do you think I should risk decline DO acceptance just because I want to attend a MD school. I read this year and last year RFU BMS thread, this program is a huge gamble. But I believe I can perform well. I will greatly appreciate any help! Thanks in advance!

Gonna have to echo the two above posters. I know people who went the BMS/SMP route even though they had DO acceptances and many came to later regret not taking the DO. With that said, if you're really serious about MD schools, definitely invest your resources in raising your MCAT score instead. Even if you take an expensive MCAT prep course, the money you spend will pale in comparison to the 50k+ that an SMP costs.
 
Help Please,

I got accepted at one of my top choice DO school and RFU BMS program. DO admission deposit is due in couple days. I am a non traditional and it is my first application cycle. sGPA 3.8, cGPA 3.84, MCAT 26 (PS 10, VR 6, BS 10). Do you think I should risk decline DO acceptance just because I want to attend a MD school. I read this year and last year RFU BMS thread, this program is a huge gamble. But I believe I can perform well. I will greatly appreciate any help! Thanks in advance!

Unless you're dead set on being a plastic-brain-surgeon and know beyond a shadow of a doubt you will make killer grades in BMS, I would go DO. Sure you could turn it down, then apply to MD and DO schools during BMS, but that's a lot of money to gamble (north of 60 grand) and very well may still end you up in the same place, with one extra year burned as well. I know of plenty of people here doing "reasonably well" who have not gotten in yet. Not to say they won't, but the clock is ticking and it's really easy to goof up.
 
  1. fine people currently in the BMS program, have you or anyone you know in the program this year receive an acceptance to another MD school you applied to for this coming fall ? or maybe waitlisted currently waiting to send in your spring quarter grades?........
  2. if so, what schools have been receptive to the BMS program this year? anyone accepted to UIC or Rush or Loyola or other so far while waiting on CMS decision / accepted to CMS and will decide between CMS or another allo. MD?????
 
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Hi guys,

So I got into the BMS program, but I'm really worried about getting into CMS after. I know a lot of it depends on your grades in the classes in the program, and getting all or most A's. So assuming I go into the program, and get all A's and get involved in a couple organizations, what do you think my chances are for getting into the program given the following?:

1. MCAT score = 29
2. cGPA = 3.20, sGPA = 2.75
3. Lots of volunteering (in and out of medical setting)
4. Lots of shadow experience
5. Research position in translational lab for 2 years + Summer research internship
6. Many leadership positions throughout college career

I would really appreciate all honest opinions and any feedback I can get. Thank you!
 
Hello Everyone,

I was just notified that I will be placed on the wait list.

If anyone has any information or personal experiences regarding my situation I would very much appreciate your input.

Thanks
 
Hello Everyone,

I was just notified that I will be placed on the wait list.

If anyone has any information or personal experiences regarding my situation I would very much appreciate your input.

Thanks

What were your stats if you don't mind me asking.

Also, from what I've gathered, a lot of people get in off the wait list because people tend to cancel last minute etc.
 
There was a lot of waitlist movement into June and July last year.
 
Hello Everyone,

I was just notified that I will be placed on the wait list.

If anyone has any information or personal experiences regarding my situation I would very much appreciate your input.

Thanks
Last year I got wait listed late May. I got the acceptance letter late July. With RFUMS, there is usually a lot of wait list movement starting early June. I would say about every 2 weeks on average.
 
hey guys i am reposting since my post got drowned out, wondering about rfu bms getting people into other us md schools during the year....
  1. have you or anyone you know in the program this year receive an acceptance to an MD school besides CMS for fall 2015 ? or maybe waitlisted currently waiting to send in your spring quarter grades?........
  2. if so, what schools have been receptive to the BMS program this year? perhaps chicago area schools... UIC or Rush or Loyola or other so far while waiting on CMS decision ?..
 
Hi guys,

Just wanted to check in to see how everyone was doing. Hopefully the application statuses are going well. Those of you who are on waitlist, don't stress too much because, like the my cohorts said, there will be a big turnaround come June/July. Relax and set your mentality straight before you start the BMS year.

By the way, my previous post about my weird stats situation still applies because I recently received my "conditional" acceptance into CMS for the Class of 2019. Those of you who are worried about attending RFU because you have a decent GPA but low MCAT, I'm living proof that it's possible to matriculate into CMS even though these types of programs are traditionally for low GPA with a decent MCAT.

Congrats to the recent acceptances to BMS! I am looking forward to meeting everyone in the near future!
 
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Hi guys,

So I got into the BMS program, but I'm really worried about getting into CMS after. I know a lot of it depends on your grades in the classes in the program, and getting all or most A's. So assuming I go into the program, and get all A's and get involved in a couple organizations, what do you think my chances are for getting into the program given the following?:

1. MCAT score = 29
2. cGPA = 3.20, sGPA = 2.75
3. Lots of volunteering (in and out of medical setting)
4. Lots of shadow experience
5. Research position in translational lab for 2 years + Summer research internship
6. Many leadership positions throughout college career

I would really appreciate all honest opinions and any feedback I can get. Thank you!


You'll be fine. As we've tried to iterate to incoming BMS students, once you've gotten in it's pretty close to a clean slate. Do really well with your grades and rock the interview. Given that you have "Lots" of volunteer and shadowing experience, there should be no problem showing your passion for medicine during the MMI interview. They will still look at your AMCAS application but most of the decision process generally rides on your academic performance, interview, and year-long demeanor during BMS. Gluck!
 
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some reasons i gather from the old BMS threads

1. too expensive; maybe $50k+ for a ~50% shot at CMS is too high risk
2. the bms degree itself is useless if you don't get in CMS
3. other SMP/DO acceptances
4. give up med dream :shrug:

if i'm wrong someone please correct me

Hi Mgod,

Everything that you've gathered is true. It is extremely expensive for this program (and it's only getting more expensive); the degree being worthless I cannot speak on because I haven't gotten it yet but I am also assuming that it is close to worthless. I'm assuming that you've already done the research for finding other SMP programs and you're already accepted to a DO program yourself to consider point #3. Regardless, BMS is still a good shot (50% chance is better than most odds out there) if you have plans on becoming a future surgeon.

In terms of giving up the dream, my attitude is that it's not truly a dream if you could easily say that you'd consider giving it up because you're scared of the risk. It is a big risk; I do not deny that. However, all excuses aside, if you want it that bad then you'll do it because it's one of the very few opportunities out there that will allow you to matriculate into an MD program, given low stats.

My point: filter out all the negativity and really dig deep into your own being to ask whether you have what it takes to ride it out all year long if need be. I only recently got my acceptance and I can tell you that it truly was painful to duke it out for so long. However, I never doubted my own abilities. Even if I did not get my acceptance, I would have still been able to say that I honestly did my best and put my all into this year.

1 more block exam for this year so I need to get back to studying. Hope this helps guys!
 
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Preliminary data has ~50 acceptances so far to CMS, ~20 rejections. With ~88 people applying to CMS from BMS, that means ~18 people have yet to hear back.
 
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So basically, if I get Straight A's I'm almost guaranteed to be accepted??
 
cool, I look forward to seeing all of my future classmates in BMS! I'm thinking about living at Student Housing, but it looks a little expensive. Need a roommate if anyone is interested. I can live with either male or female.
 
hey guys,

current M2...if anyone is looking for housing, I have a 3bedroom/2bath house located within walking distance of campus. Rent will be between $750-$850/month (depending on the size of the room) + utilities and a one month security deposit. PM me for more details. Thanks.
 
anyone know what the deposit amount is once you have been accepted? thanks
 
Just sent in an app to the program today- mediocre candidate and submitting so late probably doesn't help: 3.0 cgpa/3.4 sgpa/31.
What's the verification turnaround? Hoping it's closer to the 7-10 days some posters have been getting vs. the 4-6 weeks from earlier in the cycle.
 
Hey everyone. Long-time lurker, new member here.

Just received acceptance phone call this afternoon! :soexcited: Now my obsessive-compulsive personality is making me look up every tiny detail I can find about this program ...

Questions about Facebook page and off-campus housing:
1. I was told there is a Facebook page/group for upcoming BMSers that I could use to contact fellow new students as well as current students with questions. After looking all over FB, I can't find the group anywhere. Does anyone know if a BMS 2015-16 page exists?

2. Is there a group/forum for people to discuss roommate/off-campus housing options? I will be living off-campus and need to find something affordable, either in a single or double.

@ClassicJandT, I submitted my application on 5/9 and received my acceptance call today (11 day turnaround)! However, I was told I will not receive my acceptance email until next week, so I would expect about a 2-week turnaround from today.

Excited to see some of you soon! :D
 
Hey everyone. Long-time lurker, new member here.

Just received acceptance phone call this afternoon! :soexcited: Now my obsessive-compulsive personality is making me look up every tiny detail I can find about this program ...

Questions about Facebook page and off-campus housing:
1. I was told there is a Facebook page/group for upcoming BMSers that I could use to contact fellow new students as well as current students with questions. After looking all over FB, I can't find the group anywhere. Does anyone know if a BMS 2015-16 page exists?

2. Is there a group/forum for people to discuss roommate/off-campus housing options? I will be living off-campus and need to find something affordable, either in a single or double.

@ClassicJandT, I submitted my application on 5/9 and received my acceptance call today (11 day turnaround)! However, I was told I will not receive my acceptance email until next week, so I would expect about a 2-week turnaround from today.

Excited to see some of you soon! :D
Hi, Rosie_cheecks,
Here is the link to the facebook group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/439197786255125/
You should contact the university's student housing department if you want to look for place/roommates. I know the school's website has a forum where you can contact other students or advertisement that are about rents off-campus. Email them and they should give you the link.
 
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good luck for last day of school! hope all you bms get in, those of you still waiting to hear back from cms!
 
Hi everyone,

Im just finishing up the app and the transcript entry. Am I also to send an official transcript? I am rather confused...
 
Hi everyone,

Im just finishing up the app and the transcript entry. Am I also to send an official transcript? I am rather confused...

Yes, you need to send official transcripts. Get everything in asap- the deadline for all app materials other than an MCAT is June 1
 
Hopefully 2 day mail will make it by June1. Does it have to be received or mailed by June 1st?
 
Missed a called from RFU while I was at work on Wednesday. By the time I called back they were gone and I left a message.

Called on Thursday/today and nobody answered or called me back. Office closed on Mondays for the holiday.

Now I'm not going to find out why they called until Tuesday. Lol. Nervous :(
 
Missed a called from RFU while I was at work on Wednesday. By the time I called back they were gone and I left a message.

Called on Thursday/today and nobody answered or called me back. Office closed on Mondays for the holiday.

Now I'm not going to find out why they called until Tuesday. Lol. Nervous :(

Do you know what the phone number was that they called from? Also, what were your stats and how long did it take from the time your application was marked complete to receive the phone call?
 
Do you know what the phone number was that they called from? Also, what were your stats and how long did it take from the time your application was marked complete to receive the phone call?

I received my admission call a few days ago and the number was (847) 578-8789. I was complete on May 13th and received my call May 20th. Can't wait to start and good luck to everyone still applying!
 
I received my admission call a few days ago and the number was (847) 578-8789. I was complete on May 13th and received my call May 20th. Can't wait to start and good luck to everyone still applying!

I was complete on May 12th and received a call on the 21st. 3.4 sGPA/32 MCAT.

I don't recommend applying as late as we did =P
 
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