Sackler School of Medicine-Residency after medical school

[JR22]

Hi there,

So I am currently applying to Sackler for the class of 2019. I have heard many great things about Sackler, I have a strong desire to live in Israel for an extended period of time, and as far as I can tell, Sackler students do quite well matching into US residency programs. I understand that Sackler students have historically had a more difficult time matching in the more competitive residencies (derm, optho, ent, ortho, and neuro) than their US MD trained counterparts, but at this point I am not particularly interested in any of those specialties.

My questions are directed towards recent Sackler graduates. Please feel free to answer one, or both of the questions, any advice will be greatly appreciated!

1. What are the problems that you encountered while applying for residency in the US, and what did you do to solve those problems?

2. Is it getting more difficult for IMG's, and specifically Sackler graduates, to obtain residencies in the US? Or do you think little has changed in the past 10 years?

Sorry for the really long post, I appreciate you taking the time to read this!

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[sinombre]

If you want to practice medicine in the US, don't go to medical school outside of the US. You have no idea what specialties you might eventually be interested in at this point, and by leaving the US you will be either closing doors or giving yourself a significant disadvantage in the future.

In response to your second question - it is absolutely getting more difficult for IMGs to match because the number of applicants is increasing at a much faster rate than the number of available residency positions. US grads have priority, and the number of US grads is about to exceed the total number of positions for the first time ever. That is terrible for IMGs, especially for IMGs applying 5+ years from now, assuming the trend continues.

 

[Catalystik]

Hi there,

So I am currently applying to Sackler for the class of 2019. I have heard many great things about Sackler, I have a strong desire to live in Israel for an extended period of time, and as far as I can tell, Sackler students do quite well matching into US residency programs. I understand that Sackler students have historically had a more difficult time matching in the more competitive residencies (derm, optho, ent, ortho, and neuro) than their US MD trained counterparts, but at this point I am not particularly interested in any of those specialties.

My questions are directed towards recent Sackler graduates. Please feel free to answer one, or both of the questions, any advice will be greatly appreciated!

1. What are the problems that you encountered while applying for residency in the US, and what did you do to solve those problems?

2. Is it getting more difficult for IMG's, and specifically Sackler graduates, to obtain residencies in the US? Or do you think little has changed in the past 10 years?

Sorry for the really long post, I appreciate you taking the time to read this!

You might check out SDN's International Medicine forum, where you'll find threads dedicated to Israeli med school and find folks who matriculated at Sackler that you can PM, if your answers can't be found.

 

[WingedOx]

If you want to live in Israel, go live in Israel.

If you want to be a physician in the US, put the work in and attend a US medical school and not one with a slick marketing strategy to low-stat Americans.

 

[JR22]

Thanks for the responses so far everyone. Sinombre, you are spot on with your answer to my second question, and that is exactly why I am concerned about attending a foreign medical school. That said, are any of you Sackler grads or know about the Sackler program in particular? I know that most foreign medical schools are not very good options, like the Caribbean schools for instance, but this program has consistently produced students who have gotten solid residencies and excelled in their fields. The fact of the matter is that in this changing medical landscape, I don't know if Sackler grads will continue to have the success they have had over the past 30+ years. Any input from Sackler grads specifically would probably be more beneficial just because Sackler is not just like every other foreign MS.

I hope to continue to hear from others!

Thanks.

 

[NickNaylor]

With all due respect, you sound like you're pretty set on this. If it's want you to do, then do it. Just understand that regardless of your perceived reputation of a foreign school, it won't approach the opportunities afforded to you by graduating from a US MD school. That's all there is to it - full stop. @Catalystik mentioned going to the international medicine forum, so perhaps your question is better posed there.

Strictly from a perspective of trying to match in the US, you should go to school in the US. That's really all there is to it.

 

[WingedOx]

Schools like St. George "consistently place people in great residencies who excel in their field." That doesn't mean they're a good idea.

The bottom line is that if you're American, going abroad to school is going to bring serious suspicion to your application. Doesn't matter if it's to Carib, Europe, Middle East, India, etc.

You're going to have to have a VERY good answer for why you went abroad. "I wanted to experience another culture" or whatever is just going to prop a red flag on an assessment of your judgment. If the answer is "I didn't have the stats" then you need to seriously take a look at why that is.

 

[mimelim]

Rather than giving generalities guys, especially regarding a specific school, go for direct data if you don't have personal experience. If you search my posting history regarding IMGs (including, but not limited to Caribbean grads) and residency applications you will find that I am fairly pro-DO > FMG, but pro-FMG coming from non-Caribbean since they tend to be strong applicants.

For starters you ask about residency matches, unlikely a lot of places, Sackler does provide their match listings:
http://sacklermedicine.us/match-day/ (2014)
http://www.sacklermedicine.us/RESIDENCY_APPOINTMENTS_1981_2013.pdf (1981-2013)

I'm going to tell you this straight out. As a pre-med, you can not read or understand those documents. (unless you are part of the <1% of applicants that have been involved in academic medicine before) I would caution you to read too much into match lists or try to draw your own conclusions. Even medical students/residents have a hard time and it takes a lot of time and experience to really appreciate what you can and can't get from a list.

A few things that I would note about Sackler's match lists:
#1 They send people to some reasonably competitive residency programs.
#2 The overwhelming majority of students that match in the US, match in New York and only 7 matched NOT on the East coast. (2014)
#3 Their match list is akin to a 'low tier' US MD school. Random smattering of competitive spots among a background of everything else.

I have only heard Sackler mentioned twice by residency PDs, one in IM and the other in general surgery, both on the East coast. One was in passing and the other was overtly negative, commenting on the poor culture competency of their graduates. This is anecdotal. n=1. However, given that that is by FAR the biggest concern with FMGs in general, I would be wary of it.

In summary, I have no idea how competitive it is to get into Sackler. If you are unlikely to get into a USMD spot, it would be an excellent choice over other FMG/Caribbean etc. However, it will significantly limit your options going forward relative to most, if not all US MD programs. It is a risk, even compared to DO programs to do your training outside of the US. Sackler clearly has well developed pathways back into NY and the East coast, but that influence likely does not extend much further than that.

 

[WingedOx]

I honestly didn't know much specifically about their program until I was assigned an M4 from their school to interview for residency this fall. ironically enough, most of the people at our applicant review meeting didn't know much about the place either so it was up to me to give everyone the rundown of what I researched .

They seem to be a step up on the Caribbean, but honestly, not THAT much of a step up, and a pretty clear lag behind places like the "lower tier" MD schools. (didn't help that the person I interviewed really didn't come across well... so personal bias at play) There are some pretty respectable matches here and there on the lists that mimelim posted, but you see the same things from carib schools if you really look at them. The place still basically exists to educate those who can't go LCME/DO.

Going to Sackler isn't going to sink your medical career, but then again, I personally know people that went abroad to the Carib, India, Egypt, Central Europe, all of whom are in residencies or beyond now and doing quite well for themselves. Sadly though, anecdote isn't data, and the harsh data is that you need to have a low risk aversion to go abroad.

If you have the stats to stay in the US: Stay in the US.
If you don't, then take time to improve your stats.
If that still doesn't work, then you might as well try abroad, but if you've failed the first two, you'd better be confident in your abilities, it'll be your future credit score (or your parents' as happens often) on the line.

 

[mimelim]

Don't you think that is largely self-selection given that their student body population is heavily skewed towards New York/Northeastern jewish people?

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I have no personal experience with any Sackler grads. But our PD and attending posters have posted on this in the past and made it very clear Sackler is in a totally different class than the usual caribbean school/IMG grads. I don't think it's nearly the risk/death-sentence that going to the carib is.

Like you said I think it is important that people not conflate all international schools together as there is a wide spectrum.

I'm not sure. I think it is fair to say that things are skewed to where there are higher concentrations of Jews, which the North East certainly is, but NY only makes up 9% of Jews in the US. Unless there is a reason that NE Jews are more likely to go to Sackler than those from elsewhere in the country, it does matter.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Rather than giving generalities guys, especially regarding a specific school, go for direct data if you don't have personal experience. If you search my posting history regarding IMGs (including, but not limited to Caribbean grads) and residency applications you will find that I am fairly pro-DO > FMG, but pro-FMG coming from non-Caribbean since they tend to be strong applicants.

For starters you ask about residency matches, unlikely a lot of places, Sackler does provide their match listings:
http://sacklermedicine.us/match-day/ (2014)
http://www.sacklermedicine.us/RESIDENCY_APPOINTMENTS_1981_2013.pdf (1981-2013)

I'm going to tell you this straight out. As a pre-med, you can not read or understand those documents. (unless you are part of the <1% of applicants that have been involved in academic medicine before) I would caution you to read too much into match lists or try to draw your own conclusions. Even medical students/residents have a hard time and it takes a lot of time and experience to really appreciate what you can and can't get from a list.

A few things that I would note about Sackler's match lists:
#1 They send people to some reasonably competitive residency programs.
#2 The overwhelming majority of students that match in the US, match in New York and only 7 matched NOT on the East coast. (2014)
#3 Their match list is akin to a 'low tier' US MD school. Random smattering of competitive spots among a background of everything else.

I have only heard Sackler mentioned twice by residency PDs, one in IM and the other in general surgery, both on the East coast. One was in passing and the other was overtly negative, commenting on the poor culture competency of their graduates. This is anecdotal. n=1. However, given that that is by FAR the biggest concern with FMGs in general, I would be wary of it.

In summary, I have no idea how competitive it is to get into Sackler. If you are unlikely to get into a USMD spot, it would be an excellent choice over other FMG/Caribbean etc. However, it will significantly limit your options going forward relative to most, if not all US MD programs. It is a risk, even compared to DO programs to do your training outside of the US. Sackler clearly has well developed pathways back into NY and the East coast, but that influence likely does not extend much further than that.

I'm actually surprised about the cultural part. Isreal is very similar to us and new York is very Jewish friendly. I would say sackler is a better option then the carribean though. I'm guessing but I think the education and opportunities there are better then the carribean. I actually think its fairly competitive though. Maybe if someone went there has more info that would be great. Sackler might be a viable option actually.

@Goro what are your thoughts?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I'm not sure. I think it is fair to say that things are skewed to where there are higher concentrations of Jews, which the North East certainly is, but NY only makes up 9% of Jews in the US. Unless there is a reason that NE Jews are more likely to go to Sackler than those from elsewhere in the country, it does matter.

Jews are heavily concentrated by big cities. New York/Los angeles/Miami/Chicago. New York has a high concentration of Jewish people

 

[mimelim]

I'm actually surprised about the cultural part. Isreal is very similar to us and new York is very Jewish friendly. I would say sackler is a better option then the carribean though. I'm guessing but I think the education and opportunities there are better then the carribean. I actually think its fairly competitive though. Maybe if someone went there has more info that would be great. Sackler might be a viable option actually.

I think the issue is more that through your training you have less of a cross section of the US in Israel than you do in the US. Indigent, intercity AA/Hispanic, etc. But, that is just a guess. Just a comment that I have heard.

 

[mimelim]

Jews are heavily concentrated by big cities. New York/Los angeles/Miami/Chicago. New York has a high concentration of Jewish people

I understand that. Which is why I made my comment. Not sure why you quoted me to tell me this or what this has to do with the NY heavy bias.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I think the issue is more that through your training you have less of a cross section of the US in Israel than you do in the US. Indigent, intercity AA/Hispanic, etc. But, that is just a guess. Just a comment that I have heard.

That's interesting I am guessing the orthodox people might have more cultural issues

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I understand that. Which is why I made my comment. Not sure why you quoted me to tell me this or what this has to do with the NY heavy bias.

Misread your post lol

 

[Goro]

I'm with mimelim on this one.

I'm actually surprised about the cultural part. Isreal is very similar to us and new York is very Jewish friendly. I would say sackler is a better option then the carribean though. I'm guessing but I think the education and opportunities there are better then the carribean. I actually think its fairly competitive though. Maybe if someone went there has more info that would be great. Sackler might be a viable option actually.

@Goro what are your thoughts?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I'm with mimelim on this one.

Any thoughts on the cultural stuff? You are orginally from new york

 

[Goro]

I have Jewish friends who like being able to immerse themselves in their culture this way.

Any thoughts on the cultural stuff? You are orginally from new york

 

[mspeedwagon]

Back in the day my undergrad institution sent quite a few people to Sackler (they were pretty much all NY Jews that didn't get into a US MD school). I don't know if that is still the case. They all graduated and matched fine (all practicing in NY - many at Long Island Jewish), but several wished they went to a US MD institute instead. It's a good school, but there was a lot of complaining about adjusting to culture and being behind the curve compared to the US. I graduated in '05 so many of these folks graduated Sackler in '09/'10. I don't know anyone that went in the last five years so things may have changed.

 

[WingedOx]

Regardless of region or cultural background, there aren't that many people who start medical school being good at interactions with people outside their own cultural group (I sure as hell wasn't). The exposure is important, but it's not as if that can't improve in residency, and quickly.

 

[mimelim]

Well it is called the "Sackler New York State" program...

I would assume that Jewish families from NYC are on average more affluent than elsewhere and thus preferentially able to afford to send their kids to Israel for four years for med school.

Anyways I don't mean to stereotype too much - but they have a loose association with NY and I think that is probably driving their match rates for a number of reasons - self-selection and the NY residencies being more familiar with their program chief among them.

Missed that. And that would all make sense.

 

[WingedOx]

Basically that school has some sort of agreement with the state of NY to have the state treat it as essentially equal to NY domestic medical schools. I'm not exactly sure how that's anything more than a marketing gimmick though.

(reminds me of a "reverse Stewart Med" if anyone has been around long enough to remember that comedy).

 

[JR22]

Thank you all for the feedback, it is nice to hear the different perspectives and opinions of those with more experience than myself. If anyone has any further advice, or any Sackler grads read this thread, I would be happy to hear from you too.

Thanks.