Salary

[cooldreams]

so the general concensus is, from "experienced FP's", is that $160k is not enough to live on, and so we should all vacate FP ?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Faebinder]

so the general concensus is, from "experienced FP's", is that $160k is not enough to live on, and so we should all vacate FP ?

General concensus is that if you keep spreading the word about it.. less people go to FP and thus the salary goes up cause supply goes down.

Heh...

 

[erichaj]

so the general concensus is, from "experienced FP's", is that $160k is not enough to live on, and so we should all vacate FP ?

It depends on how you want to live.

 

[LADoc00]

so the general concensus is, from "experienced FP's", is that $160k is not enough to live on, and so we should all vacate FP ?

totally depends on what part of the country you live in. In the highest priced markets 160K is definitely NOT adequate to raise of a family of 4 on a single income, own a home and have a average quality of life.

I would guess the numbers would look like the following:
High end:
NYC..............300-350K
SF Bay Area...300-350
LA................250-300

Low end:
Central Oklahoma/Rural Midwest....120-130K
Rural South...............................110-120K

 

[erichaj]

WELL, first you have to start medical school at spartan, then graduate from spartan, then pass the USMLE after attending spartan. Then you have to get a residency.

Then you can think about how much money your going to make.

 

[cooldreams]

WELL, first you have to start medical school at spartan, then graduate from spartan, then pass the USMLE after attending spartan. Then you have to get a residency.

Then you can think about how much money your going to make.

ouch, someone has a grudge...

 

[erichaj]

ouch, someone has a grudge...

Just way ahead of you and know what you are in for. buckle up.

 

[cooldreams]

Just way ahead of you and know what you are in for. buckle up.

well, can you tell me about your background? why spartan was not a good fit for you?

 

[erichaj]

well, can you tell me about your background? why spartan was not a good fit for you?

And I already told you it is not a good school.

If I were you, I would strongly think about Ross, SGU or AUC. More that 30 years in business. That says something.

Take the MCAT as well. You will need it.

 

[iatrosB]

And I already told you it is not a good school.

If I were you, I would strongly think about Ross, SGU or AUC. More that 30 years in business. That says something.

Take the MCAT as well. You will need it.

Is this a joke about foriegn medical graduates infiltrating FM?

 

[iatrosB]

so the general concensus is, from "experienced FP's", is that $160k is not enough to live on, and so we should all vacate FP ?

Cooldreams, you back? Considering FM again? Thought you jumped on the neuron express to the limbic system.

 

[cooldreams]

And I already told you it is not a good school.

If I were you, I would strongly think about Ross, SGU or AUC. More that 30 years in business. That says something.

Take the MCAT as well. You will need it.

yea but you continue to only give your personal opinion, so i asked about you personally, to understand why it wasnt good for you personally.

is 27yr history of Spartan making licensed grads not good enough??

and i have taken the mcat...

 

[cooldreams]

Is this a joke about foriegn medical graduates infiltrating FM?

??

 

[cooldreams]

Cooldreams, you back? Considering FM again? Thought you jumped on the neuron express to the limbic system.

no idea.... still thinking through everything

 

[iatrosB]

??

I just didn't understand where the references to caribian schools came from.

 

[Shinken]

so the general concensus is, from "experienced FP's", is that $160k is not enough to live on, and so we should all vacate FP ?

Absolutely! You can only live on at least $550,000.

How could anybody live on a meager $160k?!? You'll surely starve. I know of a physician that only made $150k and he was homeless. Nobody would give him a loan with that kind of pathetic salary.

 

[deleted87716]

so the general concensus is, from "experienced FP's", is that $160k is not enough to live on, and so we should all vacate FP ?

Anyone who thinks $160,000+ isn't enough to live on doesn't know where to shop.

Wealth isn't about how much you earn, it's about what you do with your money. Any doctor can become wealthy, just as any doctor can wind up bankrupt. Annual income has nothing to do with it.

Besides, if you're truly working for a "salary" (look up the definition if you're confused), you're somebody else's lap dog, and they're getting rich off you.

 

[iatrosB]

Anyone who thinks $160,000+ isn't enough to live on doesn't know where to shop.

To me, that's living good even AFTER loans. Surely the OP was being sarcastic, if not, that's weird.

 

[erichaj]

Absolutely! You can only live on at least $550,000.

How could anybody live on a meager $160k?!? You'll surely starve. I know of a physician that only made $150k and he was homeless. Nobody would give him a loan with that kind of pathetic salary.

When I was a resident I lived in a cardboard box. But it wasnt any cardboard box, I got it from one of those high end department stores. I was living large.

 

[cooldreams]

To me, that's living good even AFTER loans. Surely the OP was being sarcastic, if not, that's weird.

yea i was being sarcastic... but i guess i also hoped to entertain a more "experienced" thought about "financial life" after residency.

yes, salary of 160k... salary... i know the meaning, and in fact hope to actually work for myself. regardless, im sure ill be in effect employed by insurance companys, indirectly, and also to consider than most primary care ppl seem to actually directly work under someone...

sorry, i was not attempting a jab at either "only" 160k or at primary care in general... as most likely that will be where i go... either that or neurology.... hmmmmmm

 

[iatrosB]

yea i was being sarcastic... but i guess i also hoped to entertain a more "experienced" thought about "financial life" after residency.

yes, salary of 160k... salary... i know the meaning, and in fact hope to actually work for myself. regardless, im sure ill be in effect employed by insurance companys, indirectly, and also to consider than most primary care ppl seem to actually directly work under someone...

sorry, i was not attempting a jab at either "only" 160k or at primary care in general... as most likely that will be where i go... either that or neurology.... hmmmmmm

Try this one out:

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/pgmrslt/1,1239,,00.html

EDIT: sorry that was supposed to be a link to the programs that lead to dual certification (double residency) in internal medicine AND neurology. Maybe giving you the best of both worlds (and the worst, who knows).

 

[iatrosB]

From here, just click on "choose specialty" and the med/neuro programs are under the "combined specialty" category.

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/srch/1,1239,Y,00.html

 

[cooldreams]

wow, youre on the ball. thanks man. i will seriously look into that...

 

[deleted87716]

yea i was being sarcastic... but i guess i also hoped to entertain a more "experienced" thought about "financial life" after residency.

What do you want to know?

im sure ill be in effect employed by insurance companys, indirectly, and also to consider than most primary care ppl seem to actually directly work under someone

*Shrugs.* I don't. You don't have to either.

i was not attempting a jab at either "only" 160k or at primary care in general... as most likely that will be where i go... either that or neurology.

Since you seem concerned about money, you should know that neurology is one of the lowest-paid IM specialties...many neurologists earn less than most family physicians. The average incomes are very comparable.

 

[sophiejane]

Are we seriously having this discussion again?

 

[deleted87716]

Are we seriously having this discussion again?

It's a slow week, I guess. Or, maybe the search function is down again?

 

[sophiejane]

At this point, I think I'd rather talk about poop.

lowbudget, where are you???

 

[iatrosB]

Are we seriously having this discussion again?

Be a sport soph, you know you're bored.

 

[iatrosB]

At this point, I think I'd rather talk about poop.

lowbudget, where are you???

Lowbudget has had some quality posts lately...the poop one was great, and then the med/peds one was good too.

 

[deleted87716]

Lowbudget has had some quality posts lately...the poop one was great, and then the med/peds one was good too.

Still laughing about the poop post...I must've missed the one about med-peds, though...where's that one?

 

[iatrosB]

Still laughing about the poop post...I must've missed the one about med-peds, though...where's that one?

It's from the "question about FP" thread:

Link here.

[Oh, yeah...that one. Thanks. - KentW]

 

[iatrosB]

 

[soulsearchin]

totally depends on what part of the country you live in. In the highest priced markets 160K is definitely NOT adequate to raise of a family of 4 on a single income, own a home and have a average quality of life.

I would guess the numbers would look like the following:
High end:
NYC..............300-350K
SF Bay Area...300-350
LA................250-300

Low end:
Central Oklahoma/Rural Midwest....120-130K
Rural South...............................110-120K

you seem to be pretty well informed about the practical issues.but how did you sum up these values?did u look it up online?what would you call an average lifestyle?

 

[Miami_med]

you seem to be pretty well informed about the practical issues.but how did you sum up these values?did u look it up online?what would you call an average lifestyle?

I think LA Doc's assesments may be a little high for parts of the South. A good rule of thumb would be AFTER loan payments, do you make 1/2.5 to 1/3 or more of the average home price in a region. If you do, you can probably afford (not just buy, but AFFORD) the average home. If you can buy a home, most of the other practicalities will work out for an average lifestyle in an area (a few good restaurant meals, a vacation, a couple of not crap cars, etc...)

Here in Miami, the average home is about $400,000, and we have REALLY HIGH real estate taxes around 2.5%/year and VERY HIGH insurance premiums, so you would really want to fall back to closer to 1/2.5 So after loans and the taxes on your loan money (average about 25% as a guess), you'd need to make $400,000/2.5 to live an average lifestyle. Of course, this is an expensive area, so most people DO NOT live the average lifestyle and are more strapped.

I'll do a calculation for you. In Miami, $400,000/2.5= $160,000. If you pay $2000/month in loans, * 12 months * 1.25 to account for taxes, you are at $30,000. Add $160,000, and you'll need to make $190,000 to live the lifestyle described above. Now, if you live in Fort Wayne Indiana, which also has high property taxes but an average home price of $100,000. You'll divide by 2.5 and get $40,000. Add your $30,000 and it would only take you about $70,000 to live that lifestyle in Fort Wayne. It really is location dependent. Also, your number will be lower if your spouse works as well.

Just my $.02

 

[Whodathunkit]

People also need to be aware that on entering this "upper eschelon" income bracket that at least 1/3 of your income will be taken away in the form of taxes.

So 160K will average out to a little over 8K/month. (It will be less if you live in a place that has state income tax and even less if you have to pick the group health insurance for wife and kids)

Which is really only comes out to about 96K/year. Is that enough?

But I know regular working people that are living just fine on $1500.00/month (after taxes). And they raised kids on that salary. They have an apartment. Yeah they have no real luxuries(besides cable, internet, occassional dinner out), but content nonetheless. Yet they still never b**** about how little money they make. Puts things in perspective doesn't it?

 

[iatrosB]

But I know regular working people that are living just fine on $1500.00/month (after taxes). And they raised kids on that salary. They have an apartment. Yeah they have no real luxuries(besides cable, internet, occassional dinner out), but content nonetheless. Yet they still never b**** about how little money they make. Puts things in perspective doesn't it?

First off, I want to say that 160K is enough for me to live off and I am not complaining about the salary for an FP.

Second, this is the problem I have with your statement. These "regular" working people didn't go to college + med school + residency (dealing with crap the whole way), that makes a huge difference. I don't care what anyone says, physicians deserve to make over 100,000 and shouldn't feel bad that they make more than someone with MUCH less training/schooling.

 

[Whodathunkit]

I don't care what anyone says, physicians deserve to make over 100,000 and shouldn't feel bad that they make more than someone with MUCH less training/schooling.

No. I agree with you completely. I just wanted to point out though that, as Kent said, if you can't live off 160K...you got a problem that needs tending to. And a financial advisor would be in order.

Doctors are notorious for being poor money protectors.

 

[medmom]

Threads like these always make me laugh. I think I will say what everyone else wants to:
Quit being so dang GREEDY! If you are THAT worried about the cash than NO don't go into FP.
This is coming from someone who's mother-in-law is in FM and she makes the "average" for FM, I think she is doing pretty stinking good. In addition, my husband and I live in Colorado where we make a little over 2k a month. We own a camper, 2 cars and our house. In addition we raise three kids off of this. I personally can't wait to even be making residency salary. Just trying to add some perspective. As someone who plans to go into FP, I lurk over here and it already drives me nut hearing people compain about the money! Okay, now I will get off my soap box!l

 

[iatrosB]

No. I agree with you completely. I just wanted to point out though that, as Kent said, if you can't live off 160K...you got a problem that needs tending to. And a financial advisor would be in order.

Doctors are notorious for being poor money protectors.

Agreed

 

[Faebinder]

Threads like these always make me laugh. I think I will say what everyone else wants to:
Quit being so dang GREEDY! If you are THAT worried about the cash than NO don't go into FP.
This is coming from someone who's mother-in-law is in FM and she makes the "average" for FM, I think she is doing pretty stinking good. In addition, my husband and I live in Colorado where we make a little over 2k a month. We own a camper, 2 cars and our house. In addition we raise three kids off of this. I personally can't wait to even be making residency salary. Just trying to add some perspective. As someone who plans to go into FP, I lurk over here and it already drives me nut hearing people compain about the money! Okay, now I will get off my soap box!l

It's okay to worry about money... not all of us have the same amount of loans (some of us had graduate degrees when we went to med school)... between me and the wife we owe three quarters of a million dollars in debit... Not to mention what my parents/family/friends have given us to get by... so yes... money is an important issue. Not everyone who went to med school is from a rich family whose mother in law was a family medicine doc.

 

[medmom]

It's okay to worry about money... not all of us have the same amount of loans (some of us had graduate degrees when we went to med school)... between me and the wife we owe three quarters of a million dollars in debit... Not to mention what my parents/family/friends have given us to get by... so yes... money is an important issue. Not everyone who went to med school is from a rich family whose mother in law was a family medicine doc.

OMG, from a rich family, now that is funny. I said my MIL is doing well (MY family consists of farmers); however, my now husband and I had our first child at 17 and still to this day have never had so much as a penny of financial help! Not to mention, I am not saying that money should not be a concern, I definately understand where you are coming from. My issue is the single, 20 year old pre-med/med student that comes in here complaining about making 160K a year. In addition, I would bet that if you and your wife have that much educational debt, than she is probably able to get a decent job as well. meaning you guys will still not be living off of your single salary. I may be wrong on that to. I am just saying that this is a subject that has been beaten to death. I have yet to understand if people are going into medicine for the money than family practice is not the place to be making it. Also, there are so many debt repayment programs that if you did go into FM than you likely would not be paying back all of the student loans yourself. I will admit that my point of view comes in part because I had a full scholarship for UG, therefore, I will enter med school debt free.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

First off, I want to say that 160K is enough for me to live off and I am not complaining about the salary for an FP.

Second, this is the problem I have with your statement. These "regular" working people didn't go to college + med school + residency (dealing with crap the whole way), that makes a huge difference. I don't care what anyone says, physicians deserve to make over 100,000 and shouldn't feel bad that they make more than someone with MUCH less training/schooling.

yeah working class people don't have to deal with crap. working in a low paying job isn't nearly as stressful as school. you totally deserve more money than them. obviously if you don't go to college you're dumb and lazy

 

[sophiejane]

My issue is the single, 20 year old pre-med/med student that comes in here complaining about making 160K a year.

Amen, sister.

 

[iatrosB]

yeah working class people don't have to deal with crap. working in a low paying job isn't nearly as stressful as school. you totally deserve more money than them. obviously if you don't go to college you're dumb and lazy

Is that what I said?

Somebodies a little too sensitive

Doctors deserve money...period! That is all I said, you want to read further into it, be my guest, but don't put words into my mouth! If you want to refute the fact that docs deserve +100K plus, go ahead and try. Do teachers deserve more than they get, yes. Do cops deserve more, yes...and so on. I never said any of what you infered from my straight forward and understandable comments, please come back when you are less defensive

 

[DrQuinn]

People also need to be aware that on entering this "upper eschelon" income bracket that at least 1/3 of your income will be taken away in the form of taxes.

So 160K will average out to a little over 8K/month. (It will be less if you live in a place that has state income tax and even less if you have to pick the group health insurance for wife and kids)

Which is really only comes out to about 96K/year. Is that enough?

Dont' forget, once you DO have money, you can write off a LOT of it from pre-tax $. 401k or 403b, FLEX, your mortgage, school loans interest, etc. You'll save multiples of thousands of dollars that way...........

Q

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

how much are the FP's making in your neighborhood?


how much are your FP associates and colleagues making?

Do a lot of FP's top $200k net?


...........

i was searching google, and came across this webpage: http://www6.miami.edu/ummedicine-magazine/fstory2.html
it mentions that FP's only get about $25 per patient. I'm assuming this is per month? or per visit? how accurate is this figure?

I also saw on another website that the overhead can be around $17000 per month (rent, nurses, malpractice, etc)

What does a typical FP's balance sheet look like? I have never seen the business side of primary care. All i see are published figures for average and median income, with none of the details that go into calculating those figures.

If you're shelling out $204,000 in overhead each year, you'd have to generate $400000 in revenue just to make ~200k. At $25 a pop, that would be about 1500 medicare patients or some crap.
If you were running strict 50 hour-weeks, seeing patients every 10 minutes, you would see 1000 patients per month. I would hope that you don't have to see this many patients, but at the same time, I read that it could take one month just to wait for an appointment at some offices.

is this how it really goes down?

 

[Faebinder]

how much are the FP's making in your neighborhood?


how much are your FP associates and colleagues making?

Do a lot of FP's top $200k net?


...........

i was searching google, and came across this webpage: http://www6.miami.edu/ummedicine-magazine/fstory2.html
it mentions that FP's only get about $25 per patient. I'm assuming this is per month? or per visit? how accurate is this figure?

I also saw on another website that the overhead can be around $17000 per month (rent, nurses, malpractice, etc)

What does a typical FP's balance sheet look like? I have never seen the business side of primary care. All i see are published figures for average and median income, with none of the details that go into calculating those figures.

If you're shelling out $204,000 in overhead each year, you'd have to generate $400000 in revenue just to make ~200k. At $25 a pop, that would be about 1500 medicare patients or some crap.
If you were running strict 50 hour-weeks, seeing patients every 10 minutes, you would see 1000 patients per month. I would hope that you don't have to see this many patients, but at the same time, I read that it could take one month just to wait for an appointment at some offices.

is this how it really goes down?

And factor in the amount that is account payable... i think Kent + others said approximately 25% goes into collection.... especially medicaid.

 

[deleted87716]

how much are the FP's making in your neighborhood?

Anywhere from $30,000 to $300,000+ (those that I know of, anyway.) The person who's only making $30K/yr. is an aberration (really bad practice management skills, and unwilling to learn/change)...so don't read too much into that.

how much are your FP associates and colleagues making?

The FPs in my group earn more than the national average.

Do a lot of FP's top $200k net?

The national average is around $160K/year. I haven't seen any statistics regarding what percentage earn more than $200K/year, but there are certainly plenty who do.

it mentions that FP's only get about $25 per patient. I'm assuming this is per month? or per visit? how accurate is this figure?

I think that estimate is for Medicare, after expenses. If you have a good payor mix (not just Medicare), code properly, and run your practice efficiently, it'll be higher than that.

 

[cooldreams]

Anywhere from $30,000 to $300,000+ (those that I know of, anyway.) The person who's only making $30K/yr. is an aberration (really bad practice management skills, and unwilling to learn/change)...so don't read too much into that.



The FPs in my group earn more than the national average.



The national average is around $160K/year. I haven't seen any statistics regarding what percentage earn more than $200K/year, but there are certainly plenty who do.



I think that estimate is for Medicare, after expenses. If you have a good payor mix (not just Medicare), code properly, and run your practice efficiently, it'll be higher than that.

how does this compare with nationalized healthcare - in the strict sense like Canada?

 

[Pureride]

totally depends on what part of the country you live in. In the highest priced markets 160K is definitely NOT adequate to raise of a family of 4 on a single income, own a home and have a average quality of life.

I would guess the numbers would look like the following:
High end:
NYC..............300-350K
SF Bay Area...300-350
LA................250-300

Low end:
Central Oklahoma/Rural Midwest....120-130K
Rural South...............................110-120K

I think you have it backwards.

The further south you go, and the more rural you go, the higher the compensation. NYC FP's do not make 300-350 unless they are in owners/partners of their respective private practice and good businessmen.

ANy NYC FP's care to chime in?