School Ranking vs Attending Salary

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Someone on [the other premed website] asked if a higher-ranked residency in a given field would yield a higher salary, which I thought was an excellent question. What if we extrapolate that to medical school choice; will attending a higher-ranked medical school yield a higher salary? It can obviously get much more nuanced, but how would this look like if two individuals went to the same school and different tier residencies or different tier schools and the same residency?

I have read a few anecdotes on here discussing increased salary negotiating ability and better sign-on bonuses to those who attended, say, a T5/10/20 compared to a lower-tier school. Does this sound legitimate? If it is, it might be a significant factor for those that are considering school choice based on the cost of attendance.

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No. A Family Med doc from Joe Shmo School of Medicine working at the same hospital as a Family Med doc from Johns Hopkins will make the same salary (assuming same years of experience level).
 
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Someone on [the other premed website] asked if a higher-ranked residency in a given field would yield a higher salary, which I thought was an excellent question. What if we extrapolate that to medical school choice; will attending a higher-ranked medical school yield a higher salary? It can obviously get much more nuanced, but how would this look like if two individuals went to the same school and different tier residencies or different tier schools and the same residency?

I have read a few anecdotes on here discussing increased salary negotiating ability and better sign-on bonuses to those who attended, say, a T5/10/20 compared to a lower-tier school. Does this sound legitimate? If it is, it might be a significant factor for those that are considering school choice based on the cost of attendance.
As you know, I am a mere premed and, as such, you might think I know nothing, but I'm going to take a shot anyway, since, as you also know, you miss all the shots you don't take! :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

It's actually not that great of a question at all. While we all stress about ranking, prestige, blah, blah, blah, in the real world this is a business at the end of the day. Any given specialty generates revenue at the rates insurance companies, Medicare and Medicaid reimburse. I have never seen anything, anywhere, suggesting reimbursements vary based on where your credentials are from, so I can't imagine anyone would actually pay based on that, as opposed to based on how much money you generate.

This will ultimately be determined by your skill set, reputation, and ability to fill a waiting room, not by where you went to school or did a residency. People from "better" programs might ultimately end up earning more money, because they are just all around "better," but I'm pretty sure this would be attributed to correlation as opposed to causation.

I'd love to stand corrected.
 
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Well - my post on a similar topic led to very interesting discussions, but the bottom line is that in academics - name brand might help and in the first job - name brand might help, but beyond that, no difference.
 
You could be a Harvard trained internal medicine doctor working in academic making 200k, or you could have gone to some random state school, opened up a practice, and make many multiples of that. There's pretty much no correlation- how much you make will usually depend on your personal goals as a physician + how many hours you work.
 
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I don’t know if there is data on this. For most community/private practices I don’t think it makes a difference. But for academia I can see it mattering. As well as for prestige driven fields to some extent.
 
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I don’t know if there is data on this. For most community/private practices I don’t think it makes a difference. But for academia I can see it mattering. As well as for prestige driven fields to some extent.
"Mattering" as in helping get the job, or, as OP asked, "mattering" as in resulting in a higher salary and/or bonus than otherwise? In academia, I think the former is common knowledge, but, as for the latter, do schools actually bring people in from lower tier programs, but at a lower salary???
 
End of the day it is about supply and demand.

If you are in private practice as a specialist, the main thing that determines your income is the competition, and if you are in a relatively undersupplied area, you will do well.

It has nothing to do with prestige of the residency. DO versus MD doesnt matter either.
 
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End of the day it is about supply and demand.

If you are in private practice as a specialist, the main thing that determines your income is the competition, and if you are in a relatively undersupplied area, you will do well.

It has nothing to do with prestige of the residency. DO versus MD doesnt matter either.
I heard DO doesn't have options for all specialties - so that might actually matter
 
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What if Señor Joe wants to create his own medical practice, either in a big city or a semi-urban area, undecided. Is it unreasonable to think that going to a big-name school would bring in more patients and generate more RVUs, assuming he adequately markets himself? :cool:

For this hypothetical, assume Joe is planning to specialize in either IM🤓, ROADs😎, or surgery💪.

@KnightDoc, does your expert opinion waiver for Señor Joe?
 
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Someone on [the other premed website] asked if a higher-ranked residency in a given field would yield a higher salary, which I thought was an excellent question. What if we extrapolate that to medical school choice; will attending a higher-ranked medical school yield a higher salary? It can obviously get much more nuanced, but how would this look like if two individuals went to the same school and different tier residencies or different tier schools and the same residency?

I have read a few anecdotes on here discussing increased salary negotiating ability and better sign-on bonuses to those who attended, say, a T5/10/20 compared to a lower-tier school. Does this sound legitimate? If it is, it might be a significant factor for those that are considering school choice based on the cost of attendance.
Nope nope nope.
Your salary as an attending will be the same if you went to ACOM or Yale, JAB or Harvard, U WA or U Miami.
 
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What if Señor Joe wants to create his own medical practice, either in a big city or a semi-urban area, undecided. Is it unreasonable to think that going to a big-name school would bring in more patients and generate more RVUs, assuming he adequately markets himself? :cool:

For this hypothetical, assume Joe is planning to specialize in either IM🤓, ROADs😎, or surgery💪.

@KnightDoc, does your expert opinion waiver for Señor Joe?
I really am absolutely no expert here, but my impression from talking to physician friends of my family is that the opportunities for Señor Joe to compete with the corporate practice groups are far and few between, and shrinking by the day.

I honestly have no idea, but I think the key to sustaining a practice is more related to being in a large practice group that generates referrals rather than being on your own with a HMS shingle, which is why even well established practices are selling out to the large groups, and have been for years. The business model that has existed forever is in its death throes, increasingly being replaced by doctors being salaried employees of large corporations rather than small business owners. The odds are very high that Señor Joe will have a very difficult time making a living on his own if he is in an area where he has to compete with the hospital or large practice groups.

Assuming he can survive on his own, due to demand overwhelming supply in his area, he'll have all the work he can handle regardless of what name is on the piece of paper on his wall. As has been stated all over the place, actual reimbursement rates are driven by insurance companies who don't pay based on credentials. Other than maybe impressing my mom, no one will care where Señor Joe went to school or trained, and even my mom won't go outside her network or pay a premium to see him.
 
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"Mattering" as in helping get the job, or, as OP asked, "mattering" as in resulting in a higher salary and/or bonus than otherwise? In academia, I think the former is common knowledge, but, as for the latter, do schools actually bring people in from lower tier programs, but at a lower salary???

Honestly not sure, I don't think most ppl on this board can answer that as this is an attending level question.
 
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Can’t think of any way academic clout matters unless you’re using it to match into a highly compensated field, writing a book for the general public (bet we’ll eventually see one from Fauci), or running an ultra-high-end cash-pay practice.
 
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There are other threads on SDN where people have mentioned the DO not in all specialties.
Its more difficult for DOs to get into some specialties but not impossible. Only integrated plastic residency and maybe NS are close to the impossible, but they still happen every now and again.
 
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Lets clarify this: DOs can apply for ANY medical residency/specialty in the NRMP, especially now it is all one matching system all under ACGME (there are few other match systems SF, AUA, Military where they can also apply). Of course that does not mean they will be highly competitive candidates in the field and therefore not highly represented across all medical specialties.

As for specialties that are "close to the impossible", this past years, as in every Match cycle, DOs get slots with 18 in Neurosurgery and 13 in Plastics (Integrated)
see Table 1B, page 4 NRMP Data 2020
It's more accurate to say that with a DO, certain residency sites are closed to you. BUT, with an MD, it's doesn't mean that you get to waltz into them either.
 
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Lets clarify this: DOs can apply for ANY medical residency/specialty in the NRMP, especially now it is all one matching system all under ACGME (there are few other match systems SF, AUA, Military where they can also apply). Of course that does not mean they will be highly competitive candidates in the field and therefore not highly represented across all medical specialties.

As for specialties that are "close to the impossible", this past years, as in every Match cycle, DOs get slots with 18 in Neurosurgery and 13 in Plastics (Integrated)
see Table 1B, page 4 NRMP Data 2020
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't this data say DOs matched 3/18 (matched/applied) for NS and 0/13 for plastics.
 
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Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't this data say DOs matched 3/18 (matched/applied) for NS and 0/13 for plastics.
I haven't seen the stats but I guess he meant there's no restrictions apply on DOs to apply
 
No you won’t get paid more because of what tier your school or residency is.
 
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I don’t know if there is data on this. For most community/private practices I don’t think it makes a difference. But for academia I can see it mattering. As well as for prestige driven fields to some extent.
^ This.

In academia/research it matters much more than community/private practice. Insurance companies don't care. There is no Harvard CPT code.
 
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As you know, I am a mere premed and, as such, you might think I know nothing, but I'm going to take a shot anyway, since, as you also know, you miss all the shots you don't take! :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

It's actually not that great of a question at all. While we all stress about ranking, prestige, blah, blah, blah, in the real world this is a business at the end of the day. Any given specialty generates revenue at the rates insurance companies, Medicare and Medicaid reimburse. I have never seen anything, anywhere, suggesting reimbursements vary based on where your credentials are from, so I can't imagine anyone would actually pay based on that, as opposed to based on how much money you generate.

This will ultimately be determined by your skill set, reputation, and ability to fill a waiting room, not by where you went to school or did a residency. People from "better" programs might ultimately end up earning more money, because they are just all around "better," but I'm pretty sure this would be attributed to correlation as opposed to causation.

I'd love to stand corrected.
The corollary is that it may be easier to fill the waiting room if your credentials are stronger and you havent yet built years of reputation in the community.
 
^ This.

In academia/research it matters much more than community/private practice. Insurance companies don't care. There is no Harvard CPT code.
I would say track record of research is more important in Academia tha the specific institution. Very Top publications and research out of a T70 school will weigh more than meh pubs and research from a T10.
 
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The corollary is that it may be easier to fill the waiting room if your credentials are stronger and you havent yet built years of reputation in the community.
Maybe back in the day when you had you own practice. My understanding is that today, almost everyone works for a hospital group or a large practice group, because that's the only way to have any negotiating leverage with the insurance companies, and those networks are the only way to guarantee a steady flow of patients and referrals.

Networks and referrals generate their own business, and revenue is determined by volume and reimbursement rates. As I said in another post above, I know plenty of people who are impressed by big name schools, but I don't know anyone willing to pay an out of pocket premium for one (patients, not students or their parents :)), so, I'm just not sure how you would go about monetizing it in the real world.

Just like your kid went for the money when making a school choice, no patient I have ever heard of will pay more for a licensed doctor from a fancy school working for an in-network practice group than for another licensed doctor from a random state school in the same network. In the real world, no one cares where you went to school, they only care what you produce, and all doctors in a given speciailty, in a given area, with the same amount of experience, working for a given corporation, are expected to produce at exactly the same level and are compensated accordingly. I am pretty sure that the doctor from the no-name school who has higher patient satisfaction scores, higher efficiency and better outcomes would actually be paid more than the arrogant d-bag from a T5, but that's just a guess based on what would actually make sense from the employer's perspective.

I understand how it can open doors to opportunities that might not otherwise be available, particularly in academia, but I haven't heard anyone, anywhere, say Harvard or NYU doctors can bill at a higher rate, or be paid by their employers at a higher rate than their no-name colleagues doing the exactly same work. I love how the conversation has shifted from T5 or T10 will help you get a competitive residency to wishful thinking that it will also get you a compensation bump within any given specialty. I'm not an expert, but I have never heard anyone claim that is actually the case in today's world, but it doesn't hurt to dream.
 
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You missed my point, but identify the situation in your post...
Early career doctor, working for a hospital system from T10 school, in network, will likely have more new patient interest than T50 school, in network new patient interest. I also said BEFORE reputation is built, so d-bagness is unknown by the community. Even when working for hospital systems, patients get appointments with doctors and can research them in the hospital / department websites. Patients do their homework if they need to see a doctor and have to wait know 90 days+, so they figure out who next would be best to see

even the Top 99.9999 percentile of reputation can Fall, with bad dbagness. I was only comparing apples to apples except for program in attracting new patients.

as far as medical specialties, there is still a prevalence of large group or integrated groups that then staff or are on staff at hospitals. Although more buyouts continue, not everyone works for the hospital.
 
You missed my point, but identify the situation in your post...
Early career doctor, working for a hospital system from T10 school, in network, will likely have more new patient interest than T50 school, in network new patient interest. I also said BEFORE reputation is built, so d-bagness is unknown by the community. Even when working for hospital systems, patients get appointments with doctors and can research them in the hospital / department websites. Patients do their homework if they need to see a doctor and have to wait know 90 days+, so they figure out who next would be best to see

even the Top 99.9999 percentile of reputation can Fall, with bad dbagness. I was only comparing apples to apples except for program in attracting new patients.

as far as medical specialties, there is still a prevalence of large group or integrated groups that then staff or are on staff at hospitals. Although more buyouts continue, not everyone works for the hospital.
Sounds reasonable, but it's just not how it works in the real world. It's easier for people coming out of top MBA programs to get jobs at top firms on Wall Street, but, to my knowledge, everyone lucky enough to get one of those jobs starts out at the same salary and bonus. Same for law firms. And, as far as I know, medical practices. It's certainly true for attending positions.

In case you haven't heard, there is a doctor shortage in the country. Practices are busy, and don't need to pay premiums for pedigrees. They don't generate more revenue, regardless of so-called patient interest, because doctors aren't hired unless there is a need, and when there is a need, practices have no problem billing them out, all day, every day, no matter where they went to school.

You can theorize all you want about how you think things should be, but show us any evidence that people coming out of NYU as neurosurgeons make a penny more than people coming out of any other school in the country as neurosurgeons. I have always seen the conversation end at how great the NYU match list is, but have never heard anyone talk about the compensation premium they receive, because they don't. Neurosurgeons make more than pediatricians, but NYU neurosurgeons don't make more than any others, at least not starting out, after which, skill takes over versus pedigree.
 
Salary yes, the absolute same. I have been referring to compensation which includes variable compensation driven by individual Production by the physician. So take two newly graduated out of residency physicians hired into the same hospital department X. Which physician, before any reputation is built, do you think has the likelihood to attract new patients faster? The one with T10 name recognition training, or the one with T70?
I assume you agree the T10 will attract more new patients faster for the first few years, right? More patients equals more production and more insurance reimbursements.
As such, they will make more total compensation!
 
Early career doctor, working for a hospital system from T10 school, in network, will likely have more new patient interest than T50 school, in network new patient interest.

The one with T10 name recognition training, or the one with T70?
I assume you agree the T10 will attract more new patients faster for the first few years, right? More patients equals more production and more insurance reimbursements.
As such, they will make more total compensation!
Uh no.
 
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Salary yes, the absolute same. I have been referring to compensation which includes variable compensation driven by individual Production by the physician. So take two newly graduated out of residency physicians hired into the same hospital department X. Which physician, before any reputation is built, do you think has the likelihood to attract new patients faster? The one with T10 name recognition training, or the one with T70?
I assume you agree the T10 will attract more new patients faster for the first few years, right? More patients equals more production and more insurance reimbursements.
As such, they will make more total compensation!
If you say so. I am working on the assumption that they make the same as residents, make the same as attendings, and will make the same as newly practicing physicians. You seem to be assuming that the HMS grad will have a 3 month waiting list while the DO will be twiddling his thumbs, as though sick people will actually wait to be seen by the doctor with a fancy diploma while another one is available.

My understanding is that outside our tiny world, most people really don't give a s**t where their doctor went to school or did a residency. The distinction between DO and MD seems to be fading, and I'm pretty sure most people are thrilled to be seen by a US-trained doctor good enough to be employed by a group that takes their insurance.

I am pretty sure that, starting out, their employer will make sure both are busy all day, every day, and will have the same number of patients. Over time, the cream will rise to the top, and, in any given specialty, the top performer is just as likely to come from the no name school as the name brand one, since they both will have had the same training, and plenty of "superstars" don't go to T10 schools for one reason or another.
 
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If you say so. I am working on the assumption that they make the same as residents, make the same as attendings, and will make the same as newly practicing physicians. You seem to be assuming that the HMS grad will have a 3 month waiting list while the DO will be twiddling his thumbs, as though sick people will actually wait to be seen by the doctor with a fancy diploma while another one is available.

My understanding is that outside our tiny world, most people really don't give a s**t where their doctor went to school or did a residency. The distinction between DO and MD seems to be fading, and I'm pretty sure most people are thrilled to be seen by a US-trained doctor good enough to be employed by a group that takes their insurance.

I am pretty sure that, starting out, their employer will make sure both are busy all day, every day, and will have the same number of patients. Over time, the cream will rise to the top, and, in any given specialty, the top performer is just as likely to come from the no name school as the name brand one, since they both will have had the same training, and plenty of "superstars" don't go to T10 schools for one reason or another.
We have Not been discussing “over time” as in many years.

mid you don’t think new doctors quickly get thrown to the fire to have their compensation reflect their productivity, and you believe that they will just happen to be fully busy because their employers have more than enough Patients, get ready for a rude awakening. New doctors are typically added so that patient visits and procedure can be grown. New doctors are continually trying to build their “practice” even within large hospital systems. As such new patients , like I said have to either wait for the schedule to be open for an established doctor, or they get tit choose one of the new ones who don’t yet have a reputation. Most typical is to hop on the internet and look at the backgrounds of the new docs who do have opening in their schedule.
It is at this point I contend that the training program reputation matters!

Say you had a hernia and needed repair, would you choose the surgeon fro Univ. of South Dakota residency, or the Surgeon from Columbia, both with not know reputation by anyone you know and both with the same bedside manner and newness ? It for this reason the high ranked training physician can likely grow their production a bit faster or more easily than the lower ranked trained physicians, and in turn will make more money until both are well established.

Don’t take more word for it, wait until you start your clinical rotations and talk to the Attending physicians and ask them how things work. You’ll find much to their chagrin, they are continuously having to think about the business side of doctoring.

I hear this all the time anytime I socialize with physicians.
 
We have Not been discussing “over time” as in many years.

mid you don’t think new doctors quickly get thrown to the fire to have their compensation reflect their productivity, and you believe that they will just happen to be fully busy because their employers have more than enough Patients, get ready for a rude awakening. New doctors are typically added so that patient visits and procedure can be grown. New doctors are continually trying to build their “practice” even within large hospital systems. As such new patients , like I said have to either wait for the schedule to be open for an established doctor, or they get tit choose one of the new ones who don’t yet have a reputation. Most typical is to hop on the internet and look at the backgrounds of the new docs who do have opening in their schedule.
It is at this point I contend that the training program reputation matters!

Say you had a hernia and needed repair, would you choose the surgeon fro Univ. of South Dakota residency, or the Surgeon from Columbia, both with not know reputation by anyone you know and both with the same bedside manner and newness ? It for this reason the high ranked training physician can likely grow their production a bit faster or more easily than the lower ranked trained physicians, and in turn will make more money until both are well established.

Don’t take more word for it, wait until you start your clinical rotations and talk to the Attending physicians and ask them how things work. You’ll find much to their chagrin, they are continuously having to think about the business side of doctoring.

I hear this all the time anytime I socialize with physicians.
Wouldn't training/residency be more pertinent in your scenario than medical school? Although my opinion is that med school ranking is unimportant in salary given the same specialty. I think most doctors are busy! I haven't heard of many (even new grads) who have a very hard time finding patients. Usually its patients having a hard time finding a doctor!
 
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Wouldn't training/residency be more pertinent in your scenario than medical school?
Even then, who pays a premium based on where someone trained? Which insurance company, employer or patient?

All we actually have are proud parents conjuring up hypothetical scenarios where their T10 kids earn significant, performance based bonuses out of the box because they will have months' long waiting lists to be seen as soon as they are hired, based on NOTHING more than their pedigree, while their DO and unranked MD colleagues in the same specialty are twiddling their thumbs waiting to be dismissed due to their inability to attract business as picky patients consult US News before making appointments or accepting referrals from their primary physicians. :laugh:
 
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We have Not been discussing “over time” as in many years.

mid you don’t think new doctors quickly get thrown to the fire to have their compensation reflect their productivity, and you believe that they will just happen to be fully busy because their employers have more than enough Patients, get ready for a rude awakening. New doctors are typically added so that patient visits and procedure can be grown. New doctors are continually trying to build their “practice” even within large hospital systems. As such new patients , like I said have to either wait for the schedule to be open for an established doctor, or they get tit choose one of the new ones who don’t yet have a reputation. Most typical is to hop on the internet and look at the backgrounds of the new docs who do have opening in their schedule.
It is at this point I contend that the training program reputation matters!

Say you had a hernia and needed repair, would you choose the surgeon fro Univ. of South Dakota residency, or the Surgeon from Columbia, both with not know reputation by anyone you know and both with the same bedside manner and newness ? It for this reason the high ranked training physician can likely grow their production a bit faster or more easily than the lower ranked trained physicians, and in turn will make more money until both are well established.

Don’t take more word for it, wait until you start your clinical rotations and talk to the Attending physicians and ask them how things work. You’ll find much to their chagrin, they are continuously having to think about the business side of doctoring.

I hear this all the time anytime I socialize with physicians.

You're wrong.

And I would rather get my hernia fixed from the brand new USD trained surgeon than the new guy out of Columbia.

Also the vast majority of new surgeons are not paid on production right out of training. Typically they receive a salary while they grow their practice, and then transition to a production based model after a few years. And in your scenario the Columbia grad likely makes far less than the USD grad, because they likely took an academic job, which start out at a much lower salary.
 
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Nope nope nope.
Your salary as an attending will be the same if you went to ACOM or Yale, JAB or Harvard, U WA or U Miami.
Just realized it was in regard to an attending, not a resident.
 
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most hospital systems and big private practices have standard pay scales and don't think negotiate based on medical school/residency/fellowship. Since more and more new doctors are opting for salaried positions vs private practice, residency/fellowship reputation should help securing the first job.
 
most hospital systems and big private practices have standard pay scales and don't think negotiate based on medical school/residency/fellowship. Since more and more new doctors are opting for salaried positions vs private practice, residency/fellowship reputation should help securing the first job.
It depends. Academics absolutely. In the community kinda but not really. Private groups more often than not hire out of the local programs they are familiar with and people they know than just someone with a flashy residency name.
 
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It depends. Academics absolutely. In the community kinda but not really. Private groups more often than not hire out of the local programs they are familiar with and people they know than just someone with a flashy residency name.
True but some like to show off their recruiting :) Med schools also say they value UG prestige less but at the same time they proudly show where their students came from. Same goes for residency/fellowship or jobs.
 
True but some like to show off their recruiting :) Med schools also say they value UG prestige less but at the same time they proudly show where their students came from. Same goes for residency/fellowship or jobs.
Depends. But not really in the majority of cases. In the community this effect is very minimal.
 
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I find it amusing that people can be worried that the average patient will be simultaneously "dumb" enough to confuse NPs and PAs with physicians and also "educated" enough to know/care what schools fall where within some arbitrary ranking system.

Seriously though, only about 1/3 of adult Americans (~36% in 2019 according to the US Census) have gone to college and graduated with a bachelor's degree or higher (only about 13% have an advanced degree). So more than half of your future patients (depending on where you live) will have likely never set foot on a college campus and won't give a damn about your credentials other than that you seem to know what you're doing.

Edit: Don't even get me started about access to care. The idea that the average American has very much choice in where they get care is laughable and speaks to the incredible amount of privilege on these forums/in the field of medicine. 1/5 Americans live in rural areas, and even for those in urban areas where there are likely to be multiple options for care, there are *tons* of people who have inadequate access to care, delay seeking needed treatment, or have difficulty navigating the healthcare systems to get the care they need. (Don't misread my tone, I just have done a lot of work in the health equity/access to care world and I'm pretty passionate about the topic :p)
 
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In the real world a patient will drop that Harvard Doc in a heartbeat if he would have to pay a $10 copay. Happens to my friends in primary care all the time. A patient of 20 yrs gets new health insurance for any reason and leaves the practice because the Doc is now out of network resulting in a new $20 copay
 
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In the real world a patient will drop that Harvard Doc in a heartbeat if he would have to pay a $10 copay. Happens to my friends in primary care all the time. A patient of 20 yrs gets new health insurance for any reason and leaves the practice because the Doc is now out of network resulting in a new $20 copay
THIS^^^^^^^^^. Although, you should know, on the other end of the bill, the big difference isn't the new copay. It's the large amount the practice agrees to write off in order to be in the network. A $150 charge might be written down to $70 in network, where the patient then has a $10 or $20 copay, with the insurance company paying the balance. Going out of network is not just an additional $10 copay, it also means being responsible for the $80 difference in the service charge, which the practice is no longer obligated or willing to write off, and which the insurance company won't cover.

THIS adds up over time, which is why private practices are going to way of the dinosaur, since you need critical mass to be able to negotiate those in-network reimbursements with the insurance companies and because, in today's world where insurance premiums are so high, patients are unwilling to pay them AND pay out of network fees, in addition to copays, deductibles, etc.

And, yeah, this is why where you go to school or train doesn't matter, because nobody, nowhere, is willing to pay a premium for it, other than, apparently, some proud parents who think it means anything once you go outside academia. Whatever.

Top tier schools are still preferable if you want a better shot at some residencies, or want a job in academia. But again, the parents arguing here because they want it to be true are kidding themselves if they think a Harvard trained clinician makes any more than any other clinician in the same specialty, in the same practice group, in the same geographic area with the same level of experience and productivity. The system just doesn't value or reward pedigree at that point.

Pedigree is important, MAYBE, in making it to a given specialty, but is meaningless in the real world in terms of compensation once you are there. In the real world, people hire people based on whether they want to work with them, not based on where they went to school, because there is no way to monetize that, so it just doesn't add value to the practice.

Nice people with a good bedside manner who are good at their jobs generate business, no matter where they went to school. And arrogant d-bags, or people who suck at their jobs, turn patients and coworkers off, again, no matter where they went to school. All types are found at all schools. So why does anyone think fancy schools are determining factors regarding being hired, or compensation, in an industry with a chronic shortage of caregivers?

We keep seeing posts and hearing about people who don't match. Who actually has a hard time finding work post residency, and, to the extent they even exist, are they really disproportionately coming from low tier schools, because first dibs go to people at fancy schools???????????? I'd imagine the dick coming out of Harvard and interviewing for jobs would have the same results finding work that the dick applying to Harvard with a 4.0/528 would have on the way in to school, and the same would be true for the rockstar coming out of a low-tier state school.
 
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Depends. But not really in the majority of cases. In the community this effect is very minimal.
I didn’t say majority of the cases. Agree overall it makes no difference financially.
 
THIS^^^^^^^^^. Although, you should know, on the other end of the bill, the big difference isn't the new copay. It's the large amount the practice agrees to write off in order to be in the network. A $150 charge might be written down to $70 in network, where the patient then has a $10 or $20 copay, with the insurance company paying the balance. Going out of network is not just an additional $10 copay, it also means being responsible for the $80 difference in the service charge, which the practice is no longer obligated or willing to write off, and which the insurance company won't cover.

THIS adds up over time, which is why private practices are going to way of the dinosaur, since you need critical mass to be able to negotiate those in-network reimbursements with the insurance companies and because, in today's world where insurance premiums are so high, patients are unwilling to pay them AND pay out of network fees, in addition to copays, deductibles, etc.

And, yeah, this is why where you go to school or train doesn't matter, because nobody, nowhere, is willing to pay a premium for it, other than, apparently, some proud parents who think it means anything once you go outside academia. Whatever.

Top tier schools are still preferable if you want a better shot at some residencies, or want a job in academia. But again, the parents arguing here because they want it to be true are kidding themselves if they think a Harvard trained clinician makes any more than any other clinician in the same specialty, in the same practice group, in the same geographic area with the same level of experience and productivity. The system just doesn't value or reward pedigree at that point.

Pedigree is important, MAYBE, in making it to a given specialty, but is meaningless in the real world in terms of compensation once you are there. In the real world, people hire people based on whether they want to work with them, not based on where they went to school, because there is no way to monetize that, so it just doesn't add value to the practice.

Nice people with a good bedside manner who are good at their jobs generate business, no matter where they went to school. And arrogant d-bags, or people who suck at their jobs, turn patients and coworkers off, again, no matter where they went to school. All types are found at all schools. So why does anyone think fancy schools are determining factors regarding being hired, or compensation, in an industry with a chronic shortage of caregivers?

We keep seeing posts and hearing about people who don't match. Who actually has a hard time finding work post residency, and, to the extent they even exist, are they really disproportionately coming from low tier schools, because first dibs go to people at fancy schools???????????? I'd imagine the dick coming out of Harvard and interviewing for jobs would have the same results finding work that the dick applying to Harvard with a 4.0/528 would have on the way in to school, and the same would be true for the rockstar coming out of a low-tier state school.
I really don't disagree with the above. All I was saying people will leave a long term relationship in a practice with a Harvard doc to join a U of Toledo doc over $20.
 
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Wouldn't training/residency be more pertinent in your scenario than medical school? Although my opinion is that med school ranking is unimportant in salary given the same specialty. I think most doctors are busy! I haven't heard of many (even new grads) who have a very hard time finding patients. Usually its patients having a hard time finding a doctor!
Agreed, Residency make the bigger difference.
 
Top tier schools are still preferable if you want a better shot at some residencies, or want a job in academia. But again, the parents arguing here because they want it to be true are kidding themselves if they think a Harvard trained clinician makes any more than any other clinician in the same specialty, in the same practice group, in the same geographic area with the same level of experience and productivity. The system just doesn't value or reward pedigree at that point.
True, but that same "Harvard-trained clinician "will have more opportunities when finishing up residency, which will likely lead to higher salaries in a prominent practice.
 
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True, but that same "Harvard-trained clinician "will have more opportunities when finishing up residency, which will likely lead to higher salaries in a prominent practice.
Sorry Micky, it doesn't work that way. In academics or if you want to be a Dept Chair, agreed, pedigree will be an asset. Academics typically doesn't pay nearly was well as private practice. I can say this with confidence as I have done both. Believe it or not, training from the Ivys doesn't prepare you as well for private practice as some programs with lesser name recognition. In private practice, not only do you need to know what you are doing, but you have to do it skillfully and quickly. I have personally seen Ivy trained docs struggle to be excellent in all 3 areas. A couple, including one of my attendings were kinda terrible docs. One , a walking textbook, with terrible clinical skills, another slow as molasses. Patient throughput means higher salary as most people are paid for productivity to some degree or another. Even academics will do this to some degree. Also, you rarely see a private practice with all ivy grads. It's just not that important.
 
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Sorry Micky, it doesn't work that way. In academics or if you want to be a Dept Chair, agreed, pedigree will be an asset. Academics typically doesn't pay nearly was well as private practice. I can say this with confidence as I have done both. Believe it or not, training from the Ivys doesn't prepare you as well for private practice as some programs with lesser name recognition. In private practice, not only do you need to know what you are doing, but you have to do it skillfully and quickly. I have personally seen Ivy trained docs struggle to be excellent in all 3 areas. A couple, including one of my attendings were kinda terrible docs. One , a walking textbook, with terrible clinical skills, another slow as molasses. Patient throughput means higher salary as most people are paid for productivity to some degree or another. Even academics will do this to some degree. Also, you rarely see a private practice with all ivy grads. It's just not that important.
Some of the Ivies are boutique hospitals and you get better clinical training at community hospitals.
 
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Sorry Micky, it doesn't work that way. In academics or if you want to be a Dept Chair, agreed, pedigree will be an asset. Academics typically doesn't pay nearly was well as private practice. I can say this with confidence as I have done both. Believe it or not, training from the Ivys doesn't prepare you as well for private practice as some programs with lesser name recognition. In private practice, not only do you need to know what you are doing, but you have to do it skillfully and quickly. I have personally seen Ivy trained docs struggle to be excellent in all 3 areas. A couple, including one of my attendings were kinda terrible docs. One , a walking textbook, with terrible clinical skills, another slow as molasses. Patient throughput means higher salary as most people are paid for productivity to some degree or another. Even academics will do this to some degree. Also, you rarely see a private practice with all ivy grads. It's just not that important.
The FM dep't at my local HMO has grads from some of the UCs, Keck, Gtown, some midwestern state schools and a few DOs.
 
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Sorry Micky, it doesn't work that way. In academics or if you want to be a Dept Chair, agreed, pedigree will be an asset. Academics typically doesn't pay nearly was well as private practice. I can say this with confidence as I have done both. Believe it or not, training from the Ivys doesn't prepare you as well for private practice as some programs with lesser name recognition. In private practice, not only do you need to know what you are doing, but you have to do it skillfully and quickly. I have personally seen Ivy trained docs struggle to be excellent in all 3 areas. A couple, including one of my attendings were kinda terrible docs. One , a walking textbook, with terrible clinical skills, another slow as molasses. Patient throughput means higher salary as most people are paid for productivity to some degree or another. Even academics will do this to some degree. Also, you rarely see a private practice with all ivy grads. It's just not that important.
LOL, I only used Harvard because it had been in the post....No affiliation. I never thought that the Ivys were the top of the food chain, but I believe you would still get good training, maybe not the best, and the name will probably open some doors.
 
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