Still Some Bias Against DOs

[SLC]

Extrapolating the comment of 1 unhappy person (for which you don't even know the reason) to an entire school's education, and embedding it into your memory to recite it in case someone talks about "Harvard" - seems like you definitely have a chip, as this is what people who have insecurities like to do when they see someone from a fancy school (especially once they are in a position of more experience). I don't think that's the best way to argue about the clinical training disparity among MD schools.

Ha ha. You just go ahead and read whatever you need to into my post I guess.

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[DrWBD]

Residency matching is NOT based on merit? Are you kidding?What's it based on? Popularity? Your number of followers on social media? Of course its merit based. Class rank, board scores, preclinical and clinical grades, LORs, your interview, research, publications. I thought my point was pretty clear. Create a better product, favorability goes up. Better product means better board scores fewer class and board failures, better clinical rotations. If you dont grasp that, and apparently it's about an inch beyond your grasp, then discussion is pointless.

You cannot reconcile believing that the Match is actually merit-based for DOs with the knowledge that qualified DOs will be passed up for residencies simply because they are DOs - the whole reason this discussion thread was started.

And you glossed over the rest of my statement so I will restate my point in a different way - you could optimize osteopathic education in every way and DOs would not get a truly fair shake in the Match. The Match does not exist for the benefit of DOs. It exists now and has always existed primarily for the benefit of US MD applicants. DOs have always been second class citizens in the Match, and it is the AOA and the current system that keeps it that way. Alternatively, if we were all MD applicants and the AOA and the separate osteopathic education system did not exist as it does now, could we actually achieve “merit-based” residency matching.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You cannot reconcile believing that the Match is actually merit-based for DOs with the knowledge that qualified DOs will be passed up for residencies simply because they are DOs - the whole reason this discussion thread was started.

And you glossed over the rest of my statement so I will restate my point in a different way - you could optimize osteopathic education in every way and DOs would not get a truly fair shake in the Match. The Match does not exist for the benefit of DOs. It exists now and has always existed primarily for the benefit of US MD applicants. DOs have always been second class citizens in the Match, and it is the AOA and the current system that keeps it that way. Alternatively, if we were all MD applicants and the AOA and the separate osteopathic education system did not exist as it does now, could we actually achieve “merit-based” residency matching.

The ACGME match IS merit based. What you conveniently ignore that until recently, the ACGME exists for primarily for MDs and they would consider qualified DOs. A little history. I grew up in a town with an MD and a DO hospital. Why both? Because the DOs were not allowed on staff at the MD hospital. DOs were not.allowed to serve as physicians in WW2. This is how the separate but equal training systems began. DOs were not allowed to train or serve on staff at MD hospitals.
DOs did not have access to ACGME programs back then. Now, its different f you are to compete in the MD world, you better be competetive. Pretty simple concept. If you want to.be competetive with MDs, you have to have competetive stats , not just converting your degree to MD. If you want to run with the big dogs, you cant just sit on the porch and bark. Saying we are all dogs,(MDs) will not change anything. So if you want a competetive ivory tower residency, you need to be competetive. The MDs have to.
We need to produce better doctors and stop taking applicants with marginal credentials.and stop opening schools where students can graduate without ever rotating in a inpatient setting. I maintain that excellence is the greatest deterrent to prejudice that exists. Many upper tier programs are DO friendly.

 

[deleted950463]

You got your knickers in a twist when Dark Horizon mentioned where you were got into school (which you must have posted publicly for him to know) and this is the second time you have posted old information about SLC in a similar circumstance. Just stop, dude. What is your deal in all these threads?

I never posted where I am going to school publically, so that’s doxxing.

 

[DrWBD]

The ACGME match IS merit based. What you conveniently ignore that until recently, the ACGME exists for primarily for MDs and they would consider qualified DOs. A little history. I grew up in a town with an MD and a DO hospital. Why both? Because the DOs were not allowed on staff at the MD hospital. DOs were not.allowed to serve as physicians in WW2. This is how the separate but equal training systems began. DOs were not allowed to train or serve on staff at MD hospitals.
DOs did not have access to ACGME programs back then. Now, its different f you are to compete in the MD world, you better be competetive. Pretty simple concept. If you want to.be competetive with MDs, you have to have competetive stats , not just converting your degree to MD. If you want to run with the big dogs, you cant just sit on the porch and bark. Saying we are all dogs,(MDs) will not change anything. So if you want a competetive ivory tower residency, you need to be competetive. The MDs have to.
We need to produce better doctors and stop taking applicants with marginal credentials.and stop opening schools where students can graduate without ever rotating in a inpatient setting. I maintain that excellence is the greatest deterrent to prejudice that exists. Many upper tier programs are DO friendly.

I will re-rephrase: you cannot simultaneously reconcile the idea that the NRMP match is objective and merit-based for DOs with the reality that the most competitive top-tier programs are off limits for DOs. Just as there are now, students in my graduating class who were clinical superstars with excellent USMLE scores matched in residencies of much lower caliber than equal or lesser qualified MD applicants.

If you are going to cling to your fantasy about residency matching being completely merit based I question your “faculty” status. (Also you might consider that a DO who has been on SDN since 1999 might already know a thing or two about the history of osteopathic medicine and isn’t “ignoring” anything).

 

[SLC]

I never posted where I am going to school publically, so that’s doxxing.

You said you go to one of the LECOM’s in your very first post on this forum.

 

[Neopolymath]

I never posted where I am going to school publically, so that’s doxxing.

Yes, I'm sure a long time poster and DO orthopedic fellow (attending now?) has gone out of his way to doxx you. Ok.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I will re-rephrase: you cannot simultaneously reconcile the idea that the NRMP match is objective and merit-based for DOs with the reality that the most competitive top-tier programs are off limits for DOs. Just as there are now, students in my graduating class who were clinical superstars with excellent USMLE scores matched in residencies of much lower caliber than equal or lesser qualified MD applicants.

If you are going to cling to your fantasy about residency matching being completely merit based I question your “faculty” status. (Also you might consider that a DO who has been on SDN since 1999 might already know a thing or two about the history of osteopathic medicine and isn’t “ignoring” anything).

Question my Faculty status if you like. It is, as you know, documented by SDN. I can only rely on my personal story and what success my students have had. I guess we will have to disagree on this subject of DO bias and how to diminish it.Thanks for the lively dialogue. I dont have anything else I wish to add to the conversation. The Pre Meds and students should be exposed to differing views and make up their own minds as their DO careers unfold.

 

[DrWBD]

Question my Faculty status if you like. It is, as you know, documented by SDN. I can only rely on my personal story and what success my students have had. I guess we will have to disagree on this subject of DO bias and how to diminish it.Thanks for the lively dialogue. I dont have anything else I wish to add to the conversation. The Pre Meds and students should be exposed to differing views and make up their own minds as their DO careers unfold.

“...a credible source of misinformation.” High praise indeed!

 

[MacBee]

“...a credible source of misinformation.” High praise indeed!

Quoting a random reddit comment to try to diss someone is kinda lame...

 

[DrWBD]

Quoting a random reddit comment to try to diss someone is kinda lame...

Just following the advice of the faculty member who advocates “exposure to different views”...

 

[SLC]

Just following the advice of the faculty member who advocates “exposure to different views”...

Is there something automatically wrong about that? You seem bitter.

I mean, if I’d followed the prevailing wisdom on SDN, I wouldn’t even be a doctor right now. I for one am glad I didn’t listen to some of our more notorious DO haters.

 

[DrWBD]

Is there something automatically wrong about that? You seem bitter.

The importance of exposure to different points of view presupposes that each point of view is equally valid. The point I have been trying to make repeatedly from my first comment on this issue is that it doesn’t matter how good DO applicants are or can be in the future. The Match always has and always will favor the placement of US MD applicants first and foremost. That is the reason for its existence. We certainly have more opportunities than our predecessors but that is purely attributable to supply and demand - program directors need to fill their residencies to secure GME funding and historically there have not been enough graduating US MD seniors to fill all the positions. With the merger of programs combined with increased MD class sizes, it is not unreasonable to expect that DOs will be squeezed out of “competitive” residencies once again. It is possible that this is actually the intended endgame with MDs getting more desirable residencies and DOs getting whatever remains.

Pretending that the Match is some sort of meritocracy and passing this advice on to applicants is incorrect.

 

[Goro]

The ACGME match IS merit based. What you conveniently ignore that until recently, the ACGME exists for primarily for MDs and they would consider qualified DOs. A little history. I grew up in a town with an MD and a DO hospital. Why both? Because the DOs were not allowed on staff at the MD hospital. DOs were not.allowed to serve as physicians in WW2. This is how the separate but equal training systems began. DOs were not allowed to train or serve on staff at MD hospitals.
DOs did not have access to ACGME programs back then. Now, its different f you are to compete in the MD world, you better be competetive. Pretty simple concept. If you want to.be competetive with MDs, you have to have competetive stats , not just converting your degree to MD. If you want to run with the big dogs, you cant just sit on the porch and bark. Saying we are all dogs,(MDs) will not change anything. So if you want a competetive ivory tower residency, you need to be competetive. The MDs have to.
We need to produce better doctors and stop taking applicants with marginal credentials.and stop opening schools where students can graduate without ever rotating in a inpatient setting. I maintain that excellence is the greatest deterrent to prejudice that exists. Many upper tier programs are DO friendly.

I will re-rephrase: you cannot simultaneously reconcile the idea that the NRMP match is objective and merit-based for DOs with the reality that the most competitive top-tier programs are off limits for DOs. Just as there are now, students in my graduating class who were clinical superstars with excellent USMLE scores matched in residencies of much lower caliber than equal or lesser qualified MD applicants.

If you are going to cling to your fantasy about residency matching being completely merit based I question your “faculty” status. (Also you might consider that a DO who has been on SDN since 1999 might already know a thing or two about the history of osteopathic medicine and isn’t “ignoring” anything).

WDB, the bickering is getting tiresome. You and Angus are talking past each other. Both of you are correct. ACGME is a merit based system, but when it comes to DOs, some doors are closed, and others need some effort to be pushed open by DOs. In other words, it's not a perfect system, but one that has been tainted, as Angus points out, by schools that have poor clinical training.


And really, citing reddit, the cesspool of the internet, as a source is not very credible.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

“...a credible source of misinformation.” High praise indeed!

Good hell... This is what happens when you teach your parents how to use the internet!

They start citing reddit and 4chan as credible sources...

 

[DrWBD]

WDB, the bickering is getting tiresome. You and Angus are talking past each other. Both of you are correct. ACGME is a merit based system, but when it comes to DOs, some doors are closed, and others need some effort to be pushed open by DOs. In other words, it's not a perfect system, but one that has been tainted, as Angus points out, by schools that have poor clinical training.


And really, citing reddit, the cesspool of the internet, as a source is not very credible.

I suppose it is only coincidental they had some not so nice comments about your worth as an adviser as well...?

Especially since you also appear to be missing the point I have been trying to make - somehow increasing the “quality” of osteopathic training - while a laudable goal for other reasons - will do exactly nothing to increase DO applicants’ chances in a system that is intentionally stacked against them. Advising residency applicants otherwise is misleading.

 

[DrWBD]

Good hell... This is what happens when you teach your parents how to use the internet!

They start citing reddit and 4chan as credible sources...

Better?

 

[deleted950463]

I mean, those guys don’t know what they don’t know.

It’s just like people who went to Harvard undergrad / HMS / MGH then go work at BWH don’t know what the DO game is like. The DO folks who went to a state school, then DO school, then St. Elsewhere’s community AOA residency or wherever family medicine residency don’t know what it takes to get to Hopkins/NYP/partners health care academic job either.

And both of them are probably equally satisfied in life and their careers. It’s just that their life path don’t really intersect and most of them are never peer to each other.

Once in awhile you can have them interact, and people have those experiences are few and inbetween here, and often labeled as subversive.

 

[Goro]

I mean, those guys don’t know what they don’t know.

It’s just like people who went to Harvard undergrad / HMS / MGH then go work at BWH don’t know what the DO game is like. The DO folks who went to a state school, then DO school, then St. Elsewhere’s community AOA residency or wherever family medicine residency don’t know what it takes to get to Hopkins/NYP/partners health care academic job either.

And both of them are probably equally satisfied in life and their careers. It’s just that their life path don’t really intersect and most of them are never peer to each other.

Once in awhile you can have them interact, and people have those experiences are few and inbetween here, and often labeled as subversive.

Your assumption is that we are ignorant for the wise advice given in these fora by PDs and residents, both DO and MD, as to what it takes to land an ACGME residency, especially at a competitive program and/or specialty.

 

[Goro]

I suppose it is only coincidental they had some not so nice comments about your worth as an adviser as well...?

Especially since you also appear to be missing the point I have been trying to make - somehow increasing the “quality” of osteopathic training - while a laudable goal for other reasons - will do exactly nothing to increase DO applicants’ chances in a system that is intentionally stacked against them. Advising residency applicants otherwise is misleading.

r/premed is to the pre-med community as Breitbart is to credible news reporting.

 

[alprazoslam]

I mean, those guys don’t know what they don’t know.

It’s just like people who went to Harvard undergrad / HMS / MGH then go work at BWH don’t know what the DO game is like. The DO folks who went to a state school, then DO school, then St. Elsewhere’s community AOA residency or wherever family medicine residency don’t know what it takes to get to Hopkins/NYP/partners health care academic job either.

And both of them are probably equally satisfied in life and their careers. It’s just that their life path don’t really intersect and most of them are never peer to each other.

Once in awhile you can have them interact, and people have those experiences are few and inbetween here, and often labeled as subversive.

Why are you still talking none of your posts make sense. U an ms 2 continually arguing w those who have been there and done that lol. Do you think anyone here takes your rambles serious.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Better?

View attachment 247340

I stand corrected!

This is what happens when you teach your grandparents how to use the internet!

All that time you’ve been spending on reddit... and your meme game is still weak af....

 

[DrWBD]

r/premed is to the pre-med community as Breitbart is to credible news reporting.

I’m not going to defend Breitbart but you are clearly making argumentum ad hominem in response to ?valid criticism.

Ad Hominem Examples

 

[Goro]

I’m not going to defend Breitbart but you are clearly making argumentum ad hominem in response to ?valid criticism.

Ad Hominem Examples

That's because you're making yourself too easy a target.

r/premed is where the failed pre-meds go. They're the ones who bitch bitterly about SDN because we tell them what we need to hear, not what they want to hear. We wear their complains as a badge of honor.

As I said, you are getting tiresome. Applying the Ignore function. You'll feel a tingling sensation

 

[SLC]

The importance of exposure to different points of view presupposes that each point of view is equally valid.

Yes, and your posts presuppose that your view is valid while those of others are invalid.

The truth is both you and angus are right on various levels. And something about a variety of viewpoints.

 

[DrWBD]

That's because you're making yourself too easy a target.

r/premed is where the failed pre-meds go. They're the ones who bitch bitterly about SDN because we tell them what we need to hear, not what they want to hear. We wear their complains as a badge of honor.

As I said, you are getting tiresome. Applying the Ignore function. You'll feel a tingling sensation

So you enjoy bullying premeds but when your fixed ideas are challenged by an equal you back down...enjoy retreating to your “safe space” or whatever the cool kids are calling it nowadays.

 

[DrWBD]

Yes, and your posts presuppose that your view is valid while those of others are invalid.

The truth is both you and angus are right on various levels. And something about a variety of viewpoints.

Ok, if I am wrong, then show me the DOs who are doing Derm at MGH. Or internal medicine at Columbia or NYH.

The thing is, both of us CAN’T be correct. That’s the point. Either residency matching is merit based or it isn’t. Some DOs were smart and lucky enough to score choice residency training in desirable fields. Hopefully that will continue. But that is despite a system that is stacked against us. As long as we are outsiders to that system DOs will be treated as second class.

 

[Grainagainst]

Better?

View attachment 247340

I stand corrected!

This is what happens when you teach your grandparents how to use the internet!

All that time you’ve been spending on reddit... and your meme game is still weak af....

I thought it was pretty spicy.

 

[Chibucks15]

Ok, if I am wrong, then show me the DOs who are doing Derm at MGH. Or internal medicine at Columbia or NYH.

The thing is, both of us CAN’T be correct. That’s the point. Either residency matching is merit based or it isn’t. Some DOs were smart and lucky enough to score choice residency training in desirable fields. Hopefully that will continue. But that is despite a system that is stacked against us. As long as we are outsiders to that system DOs will be treated as second class.

Well a third variable is the insane amount of self selection that both DOs and MDs have in terms of specialties. Not saying either of you are right, but there are also a hell of a lot of people that don't want to do surgery, derm, (fill in crazy competitive specialty herein crazy competitive place). Many just want a classic community practice where it isn't necessary to go to the Ivys and such. It gets blown wayyyyyy outta proportion on here.

 

[SLC]

Ok, if I am wrong, then show me the DOs who are doing Derm at MGH. Or internal medicine at Columbia or NYH.

The thing is, both of us CAN’T be correct. That’s the point. Either residency matching is merit based or it isn’t. Some DOs were smart and lucky enough to score choice residency training in desirable fields. Hopefully that will continue. But that is despite a system that is stacked against us. As long as we are outsiders to that system DOs will be treated as second class.

You both can be correct, because you both are.

It’s true that DO’s don’t get a fair shake at some traditionally desirable places. But there’s not a field in medicine that doesn’t accept DO’s somewhere.

But it’s also true that where DO’s are regularly ranked and matched, they absolutely are sorted onto rank lists by merit. Board scores, grades; evaluations etc; this is common knowledge.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Calling out other users is against the TOS. Users in this thread were warned.

Please keep all interaction respectful and professional. The Terms of Service can be reviewed via a link at the bottom of any page on SDN.

 

[eberge3]

Aren’t you a DO students? Instatewaiter has been around for awhile and he’s actually a MD attending. Do you have evidence support your assertion that there is “quite a bit” of clinical variability among MD schools?

This board way overblown rotational variability at MD schools. Almost all of them have a teritary teaching hospital as home base. Almost no DO schools have a teritary teaching hospital as a home base.

Lol AnatomyGrey12 spends most of his time crappin on DO programs on this site. I think hes the self hating DO

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Better?

View attachment 247340

This thread is a gem. How did I miss this thread? Must be board season or when I was busy in the ORs.

But, I would totally hit that hawk DO applicant.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

BTW, the so called DO haters are doing great in current II season in multiple specialties. Being prepared for reality isn't being a hater.

The ones that have a hard time right are the DOs drinking the kool-aid.

 

[TheIllusionist]

the day DO average MCAT/GPA is equivalent to that of MDs, is the day the bias will truly begin to dissipate at rate that has a chance of getting things to parity in a reasonable amount of time. not saying that is fair or unfair. just how it is is

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

the day DO average MCAT/GPA is equivalent to that of MDs, is the day the bias will truly begin to dissipate at rate that has a chance of getting things to parity in a reasonable amount of time. not saying that is fair or unfair. just how it is is

Why are we talking about MCAT scores? Shouldn't we be talking about USMLE scores?

Should we be looking at HS grades and attendance % too while we're at it?

 

[Goro]

Lol AnatomyGrey12 spends most of his time crappin on DO programs on this site. I think hes the self hating DO

I disagree. Grey is actually quite proud of being a DO student, and I don't perceive him as crapping on the profession. He, like most us just pull our hair out at the AOA's self-destructive policies.

Why are we talking about MCAT scores? Shouldn't we be talking about USMLE scores?
Should we be looking at HS grades and attendance % too while we're at it?

the day DO average MCAT/GPA is equivalent to that of MDs, is the day the bias will truly begin to dissipate at rate that has a chance of getting things to parity in a reasonable amount of time. not saying that is fair or unfair. just how it is is

No, just no. PDs could give a rat's ass about GPA and MCAT. That's so pre-med thinking. They do care about clinical training, and sadly, as seen in this thread, the elitist attitudes of potential residents It's like the mindset in the 1950s with restricted or segregated hotels: No, we can't wealthy black people or Jews stay here. What would future white customers think!!"

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

Why are we talking about MCAT scores? Shouldn't we be talking about USMLE scores?

Should we be looking at HS grades and attendance % too while we're at it?

@TheIllusionist is right. The applicant pool is different and there are stats to back that up. Before you ask for proof, I ask you to Google. Adcoms even admit to this. We need to be on par with MD schools instead of being the back-up for those who have questionable grades and MCAT scores - see pre-MD vs DO forums.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

No, just no. PDs could give a rat's ass about GPA and MCAT. That's so pre-med thinking.
"

Actually, the ones who discriminate do care about GPA and MCAT scores..indirectly. Thus why we are here discussing DO bias. If this weren't the case we wouldn't be here would we?

 

[Goro]

Actually, the ones who discriminate do care about GPA and MCAT scores..indirectly. Thus why we are here discussing DO bias. If this weren't the case we wouldn't be here would we?

We are disagreeing on the causes of said bias. One the AOA and COCA can do something about by tightening up clinical education and imposing a higher standard for research, and the other we have no control over. Thinking "it must be a bad program; there are DO's there. What's wrong with them?" is a more pernicious problem...that has nothing to do with GPA or MCAT, the latter of which is only a weak indicator of Step score at best.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

BTW, the so called DO haters are doing great in current II season in multiple specialties. Being prepared for reality isn't being a hater.

The ones that have a hard time right are the DOs drinking the kool-aid.

I’ve actually found the exact opposite to be true. I know a very prominent “DO hater” on this site bc she goes to my school and was open about her SDN presence. Ended up not taking usmle and scored poorly on COMLEX and is applying community AOA IM. I also know a DO grad from my school who matched ACGME derm and he talked to our class. Dude was actually painfully ignorant about DO bias. Literally just waltz in, did 3 audition, only ranked 2 of them then matched. Also know a OMM fellow with over 15+ Rad interview and another OMM that matched ACGME uro and another that matched ENT (AOA). Not saying DOs should use these methods bc they shouldn’t and these people got lucky I think but DO haters have a certain attitude that I’m sure PDs detect and likely is a red flag for some of them.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Actually, the ones who discriminate do care about GPA and MCAT scores..indirectly. Thus why we are here discussing DO bias. If this weren't the case we wouldn't be here would we?

There are MD schools like Meharry or Howard that have even lower stats than some DO schools, and yet they don't suffer from any bias. MCAT and GPA has nothing to do with the DO bias. In fact, I'd says most of DO students are capable of becoming great Doctors. Don't forget the AAMC even said it themselves anyone with a 500 MCAT and avove is good enough for medical school.

 

[libertyyne]

There are MD schools like Meharry or Howard that have even lower stats than some DO schools, and yet they don't suffer from any bias. MCAT and GPA has nothing to do with the DO bias. In fact, I'd says most of DO students are capable of becoming great Doctors. Don't forget the AAMC even said it themselves anyone with a 500 MCAT and avove is good enough for medical school.

If most DO students could get into Meharry or Howard or the PR schools they would be going to those schools and not DO schools. The point is that you cant have equivalence if admission standards are different and if your research productivity and affiliated residencies are lacking. In a world where DO schools are going to be safety or fallback schools for applicants this bias will remain.

And no one is saying there wont be excellent doctors who are DO or terrible Doctors who are MDs.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

If most DO students could get into Meharry or Howard or the PR schools they would be going to those schools and not DO schools. The point is that you cant have equivalence if admission standards are different and if your research productivity and affiliated residencies are lacking. In a world where DO schools are going to be safety or fallback schools for applicants this bias will remain.

And no one is saying there wont be excellent doctors who are DO or terrible Doctors who are MDs.

My point was that GPA and MCAT has nothing to do with the DO bias. Reasons why Meharry or Howard or PR schools are still better option than the top of top of DO schools.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

I’ve actually found the exact opposite to be true. I know a very prominent “DO hater” on this site bc she goes to my school and was open about her SDN presence. Ended up not taking usmle and scored poorly on COMLEX and is applying community AOA IM. I also know a DO grad from my school who matched ACGME derm and he talked to our class. Dude was actually painfully ignorant about DO bias. Literally just waltz in, did 3 audition, only ranked 2 of them then matched. Also know a OMM fellow with over 15+ Rad interview and another OMM that matched ACGME uro and another that matched ENT (AOA). Not saying DOs should use these methods bc they shouldn’t and these people got lucky I think but DO haters have a certain attitude that I’m sure PDs detect and likely is a red flag for some of them.

Let’s hear some infamous DO haters on here.

My point is that being critical of DO leadership and seeing the reality that being a DO is always going to be a handicap can be misconstrued by people here as being a DO hater. It’s a quick and lazy way to judge people on the surface.

The main diff bet your failure and success stories is due to preparation w/ solid stats. Being critical of your leadership and being a great person to work with are two diff qualities. Should we all be sheep and drink the kool-Aid that DOs are judged equally as MDs based on merits? That’s not the case in reality and frustrating. That’s the challenge and reality that you will face during your 4th yr, and where some of the bitterness and resentment come from especially when you see your MD colleagues with USMLE 10 pts lower than yours getting more IIs to your specialty of choice.


But just work hard right now, understand the upcoming challenge, and be realistic about your chances.

 

[Chibucks15]

My point was that GPA and MCAT has nothing to do with the DO bias. Reasons why Meharry or Howard or PR schools are still better option than the top of top of DO schools.

The issue is that Meharry and Howard are HBCs ( I believe), and PR is a major change for people so even though its a better option it still isn't even an option for many applicants. The bias will eventually be restricted to the ivory towers (where it always will stay because their prestige driven as it is), but that's a long time from now regardless.

If you came into DO school naive to the challenges and weren't gonna be okay with primary care/some of the DO specialties, than that's more on you and your lack of research. I do feel like many people come in eyes wide open and tend to not be the infamous 'self-hating DOs', as much as the people who expected to match NSG in California from a middling to bottom DO school.

 

[Goro]

Let’s hear some infamous DO haters on here.

My point is that being critical of DO leadership and seeing the reality that being a DO is always going to be a handicap can be misconstrued by people here as being a DO hater. It’s a quick and lazy way to judge people on the surface.

You can spot the difference between realistic DO students and the self-hating ones. The former will, well, be realistic about what medical education is like for DO students and for chances at residencies.

The self-haters take any chance to dump on the profession (not merely the AOA), and their colleagues. They get especially virulent in match list threads like the current DOs -> ACGME Opthal one.

And they're always injecting "DO's can't match in uber-residencies" and "tons of top places refuse to take DOs" memes no matter that the thread is about, even in "Pats vs Rams" type conversations.

This is why I have several of them on Ignore.

 

[Norwood-Sano]

Yes there is bias.
No it is not as bad as SDN makes it out to be.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Should we all be sheep and drink the kool-Aid that DOs are judged equally as MDs based on merits? That’s not the case in reality and frustrating. That’s the challenge and reality that you will face during your 4th yr, and where some of the bitterness and resentment come from especially when you see your MD colleagues with USMLE 10 pts lower than yours getting more IIs to your specialty of choice.


But just work hard right now, understand the upcoming challenge, and be realistic about your chances.

It appears you have both a massive inferiority complex and a poor understanding of DO bias when you started (I’m assuming your a DO student I could be wrong). You’re acting like us DO students are gunna have some kind of rude awakening when we realize MDs are gonna get more interviews and be open to more programs and have more resources. Literally everybody knows that. 99% of us know that going in to a DO school. We made the choice that we would accept more challenges and hurdles but that it was ok in the end. Basically nobody is going into 4th as a DO student thinking they are in the same foot as MD. Nobody. Your arguments seem centered around the concept that that’s the case.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

There are MD schools like Meharry or Howard that have even lower stats than some DO schools, and yet they don't suffer from any bias. MCAT and GPA has nothing to do with the DO bias. In fact, I'd says most of DO students are capable of becoming great Doctors. Don't forget the AAMC even said it themselves anyone with a 500 MCAT and avove is good enough for medical school.

Seriously? It is easier to get into HMS than it is to get into some of the HBCU associated med schools. Have you seen the admission stats? Try again..the matriculant pool that these schools have is very different from the DO pool.