The great divides among women in medicine

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This thread is somewhat inspired by Wire's cry for help from the frivolous women he has to deal with on his rotation. I am a woman in my mid-20s, nearing the end of my first semester on the wards, and I am somewhat disturbed that I have not met a single female attending I can look up to as a model attending in terms of interacting well with students.

I experienced malignancy and frivolity on OB Gyn since I was clearly not material for the general OB Gyn sorority. Then I worked with some female attendings during family medicine who seemed nice at first but then showed me how judgmental they were. One of them asked me if I was married with kids, and I said no. She then proceeded to say, "Well, that's your lifestyle choice" with a judgmental frown and then self-righteous head bob. Another one who works at the same nurses station made my weekend of studying for the family medicine shelf and going out with friends sound silly compared to her supermom weekend of having to take her kid to not one but TWO back-to-back birthday parties and cooking all night for a post-CHURCH Sunday brunch, all of which requires endless errands blah blah blah. Both of these attendings tried to make me feel guilty about eating an extra dinner roll at one of those drug-company funded lunches and tried to get me to tell them my BMI. Now I am on stroke service under a female attending who wears acrylic nails and has an aggressive personality but does her belittling indirectly enough so that you're not aware you've just had your ass handed to you until she's done commenting on your presentation and note. I'm not sure if I even want to find out how the women in general surgery are, but that will be inevitable at some point later this year.

I'm just kind of pissed because these attendings make other women in medicine look bad. They make it seem as if female attendings either don't know how to handle stress well or can't put aside their personal judgmental tendencies to interact with students in a more professional way ... both traits are bad! In the medical field, is there always a TEAM MARRIED WOMEN vs. TEAM SINGLE WOMEN dynamic? Are female attendings usually on the extremes of being too familiar or too malignant or constantly swinging in between those extremes? Have any of you had positive experiences with women in medicine who are different from these attendings? Where are the nonjudgmental, non-malignant women? Private practice? :confused:
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I don't really have anything to add, but I hear ya.
 
Wenckebach said:
This thread is somewhat inspired by Wire's cry for help from the frivolous women he has to deal with on his rotation. I am a woman in my mid-20s, nearing the end of my first semester on the wards, and I am somewhat disturbed that I have not met a single female attending I can look up to as a model attending in terms of interacting well with students.

I experienced malignancy and frivolity on OB Gyn since I was clearly not material for the general OB Gyn sorority. Then I worked with some female attendings during family medicine who seemed nice at first but then showed me how judgmental they were. One of them asked me if I was married with kids, and I said no. She then proceeded to say, "Well, that's your lifestyle choice" with a judgmental frown and then self-righteous head bob. Another one who works at the same nurses station made my weekend of studying for the family medicine shelf and going out with friends sound silly compared to her supermom weekend of having to take her kid to not one but TWO back-to-back birthday parties and cooking all night for a post-CHURCH Sunday brunch, all of which requires endless errands blah blah blah. Both of these attendings tried to make me feel guilty about eating an extra dinner roll at one of those drug-company funded lunches and tried to get me to tell them my BMI. Now I am on stroke service under a female attending who wears acrylic nails and has an aggressive personality but does her belittling indirectly enough so that you're not aware you've just had your ass handed to you until she's done commenting on your presentation and note. I'm not sure if I even want to find out how the women in general surgery are, but that will be inevitable at some point later this year.

I'm just kind of pissed because these attendings make other women in medicine look bad. They make it seem as if female attendings either don't know how to handle stress well or can't put aside their personal judgmental tendencies to interact with students in a more professional way ... both traits are bad! In the medical field, is there always a TEAM MARRIED WOMEN vs. TEAM SINGLE WOMEN dynamic? Are female attendings usually on the extremes of being too familiar or too malignant or constantly swinging in between those extremes? Have any of you had positive experiences with women in medicine who are different from these attendings? Where are the nonjudgmental, non-malignant women? Private practice? :confused:
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I think that it is less of a gender/woman issue than just the presence of a large number of totally arrogant and unprofessional attendings on some services. One hospital I did rotations at had attendings (male or female) which made snide little comments to everyone, and very judgmental and basically interacted very poorly with students. Other hospitals I have been at had attendings both male and female who treated students very nicely, in fact one medicine attending I worked with was very professional to me and basically focused on the work instead of asking people about their personal life and make judgment calls and rude remarks. . . I think that it is funny that you mentioned ob/gyn as a "sorority" as at some places there hidden little social agendas and rules and less focus on real patient care, maybe this is why ob/gyn care is supposedly becoming more dangerous in the US?!?, but other places the attendings and residents have a life and don't feel the need to pester everyone, especially in community hospitals where there is more teamwork and less back-stabbing like at big academic places. Attendings at some big academic places feel that they have a right to basically "haze" the heck out of medical students, sure it is unconstructive and makes cynical and hositle doctors, but they feel they have earned the position to do so.
 
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This is totally just my personal opinion but I've made a specific observation about women in medicine - and maybe this can be extended to women in any professional fields or in any positions of authority (and I am a female, btw).

Let me start by saying this: it seems to me that when a man in a position of authority wants a task to be done or gives directions regarding a patient (or whatever) - or has to give someone constructive criticism - he states his point in a direct fashion, doesn't beat around the bush but just puts it out there, and voila - things get done, the point is taken, and changes are made accordingly. I've noticed that with women, it's like, everything always becomes so much more personal. When a woman in a position of authority wants something done, it seems like they're so much more concerned with trying to be perceived as friendly and likable that they end up giving their directions/criticism in this ridiculously passive or indirect fashion which results in them either never getting their true point across, or there is just so much room for misinterpretation. Or what happens is, they go to the other opposite end of the spectrum and go out of their way to be take on this super intense, i-don't-care-what-people-think power mogul attitude and are just really outspoken and obnoxious and therefore are perceived as UNfriendly and unlikable.

Has anyone else experienced this? Mind you these are definitely generalizations that don't apply to all women in medicine, but just something I've observed on more than one occasion. I personally prefer people in positions of authority to just be direct with me - don't make me read between the lines and figure out what you're trying to tell me.

One other thing I've observed (and this may be more along with the OP's point) is that women tend to be SO much more judgmental of other females in medicine than men are. As a woman, I think I have to work much harder to prove that I'm intelligent and capable to other women than to men (which seems counterintuitive being that medicine used to be such a male-dominated profession). Maybe it's just that women in the sciences/medicine are so accustomed to the idea of being judged and being assumed to be less intelligent (historically speaking) that we ourselves become so defensive and skeptical that other women are capable and worthy, etc.
 
I think the same sex tends to be harder on you. I do feel I have more tense interactions with women and that they are more critical, whereas the men can more often instruct/correct without making me feel as incompetent. Apparently some male classmates feel the same way -- the male attendings pimp them harder, expect more from them. Maybe it has to do with some weird sense of identification. Anyone else notice this?
 
I have seen some really awful male attendings who thought they were god's gift to medicine berrate almost everyone in their path, i.e. I think when male attendings get drunk on their power they start to lash out at everyone, maybe they target men more because they feel they can get away with it and that breaking down a female medical student would cause concern and reprimands?. However, I have also seen female attendings, alot in ob/gyn, also act very disrespectfully of male students and too, . . . I have seen some male attendings also act in a "passive aggressive" manner with students, i.e. don't make clear goals or in little ways throughout the day let the medical student know that they don't want them on their service, so I think that basically any medical student can be targeted by anyone on a service, obviously for a variety of psychological pathology an attending can have a particular hatred for male or female students, who knows what goes through their heads, . . . but I have seen attendings that are preferentially harder on the same sex and also the opposite sex . . . I think in the end it is more of a power issue and a lack of empathy and humanism in medical education, the good news is that you won't have to endure it forever I guess, just learn to live with the scars.
 
mules05 said:
Wasn't there a Sex and the City episode about this? Maybe season 4 or 5?
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Haha, I just saw an episode with a very similar theme in season 1.

And to Wenckebach-- I think you'll have a better time next semester. I don't think an attending of mine has ever known about my weekend plans. Or marital status/lack thereof. Except for the really friendly CV surgeon guy who was just making conversation during an absurdly long CABG-- I explained that I didn't know if I'd ever see myself married, to some wonderment, but it wasn't a big deal. My personal life rarely, if ever, comes up with attendings, and I guess that's a good thing!
 
We have a female attending that just a glance and pimp questions from them can make you wet your pants and forget your name, let alone what the leading causes of hyperkalemia are. :scared::scared::scared:
 
RedOctober said:
I think that it is less of a gender/woman issue than just the presence of a large number of totally arrogant and unprofessional attendings on some services.
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I think the issue of attending malignancy is totally different than the issue of female professional double standards. I think when a male attending questions a woman's lifestyle choices, it's easier to know that he's being an ass and doesn't know what he's talking about. With female attendings, you would hope another woman could have empathy for the tough choice made either way - to pursue career at expense of family, or vice versa. In addition, the fact that often the offense is dealt with passive aggressively makes it hard to deal with. With male attendings, you can tell them you're "putting career first" like most of them did and even if it's not the truth, you're fine (if they're sexist and think that women should always pursue family, it's lose-lose whatever you say). However, there is no blanket statement to make with female attendings.
 
Wenckebach said:
This thread is somewhat inspired by Wire's cry for help from the frivolous women he has to deal with on his rotation. I am a woman in my mid-20s, nearing the end of my first semester on the wards, and I am somewhat disturbed that I have not met a single female attending I can look up to as a model attending in terms of interacting well with students.

I experienced malignancy and frivolity on OB Gyn since I was clearly not material for the general OB Gyn sorority. Then I worked with some female attendings during family medicine who seemed nice at first but then showed me how judgmental they were. One of them asked me if I was married with kids, and I said no. She then proceeded to say, "Well, that's your lifestyle choice" with a judgmental frown and then self-righteous head bob. Another one who works at the same nurses station made my weekend of studying for the family medicine shelf and going out with friends sound silly compared to her supermom weekend of having to take her kid to not one but TWO back-to-back birthday parties and cooking all night for a post-CHURCH Sunday brunch, all of which requires endless errands blah blah blah. Both of these attendings tried to make me feel guilty about eating an extra dinner roll at one of those drug-company funded lunches and tried to get me to tell them my BMI. Now I am on stroke service under a female attending who wears acrylic nails and has an aggressive personality but does her belittling indirectly enough so that you're not aware you've just had your ass handed to you until she's done commenting on your presentation and note. I'm not sure if I even want to find out how the women in general surgery are, but that will be inevitable at some point later this year.

I'm just kind of pissed because these attendings make other women in medicine look bad. They make it seem as if female attendings either don't know how to handle stress well or can't put aside their personal judgmental tendencies to interact with students in a more professional way ... both traits are bad! In the medical field, is there always a TEAM MARRIED WOMEN vs. TEAM SINGLE WOMEN dynamic? Are female attendings usually on the extremes of being too familiar or too malignant or constantly swinging in between those extremes? Have any of you had positive experiences with women in medicine who are different from these attendings? Where are the nonjudgmental, non-malignant women? Private practice? :confused:
Click to expand...

Maybe this thread should be moved to the "Pity Party" Section.
Orchestra: a one, and a two, and a.... +pity+ +pity+ +pity+
 
Well, Final, looking at all your other posts, I wouldn't be surprised if you end up being THAT resident or attending who inspires other threads you roll your eyes at. Have that orchestra on standby because it's going to be mighty busy wherever you are. :laugh:

It's been interesting reading the other posts. I agree that same-sex attendings can be tougher (even for guys sometimes), but often from what I have seen male attendings do favor male students. I don't, however, often see female attendings favoring female students. And Oddnath, I do look forward to the possibility of being on teams with less nosy residents and attendings! The less information they solicit, the less judgmental they can be on a personal level ...
 
So you've never had to deal with catty women before? The message here is learn how to deflect situations like these without letting them get to you. If you haven't learned how to do that yet, I suggest you start learning. Women are the same everywhere. Yes, you would like for a practicing physician to be less petty and more professional, but learn to recognize when you are not dealing with such a person and keep your guard up without letting it get to you. Can't find a role model? Then BE a role model.

Third year is just like having a high stress (and unappreciated) job except that
1) We are incompetent at our job and get in everybody's way.
2) We don't get paid to do it.
3) We expect more job training than we are receiving which leaves us frustrated.

To add to the above:
- a good half of us have never had to actually work in a real world environment other than a possible summer job,
- many of us have been supported and lovingly encouraged our whole lives and told by everyone that we will make "wonderful doctors"


The only time I ever hear compliments now are from my patients. And they have no idea how incompetent I am.
 
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the point of my post was: GET OVER IT. there are several things in medicine that will never change and are out of your hands. cope, deal with it, and move on. its called life, which happens to be a bitch.
 
Wenckebach said:
Where are the nonjudgmental, non-malignant women? Private practice? :confused:
Click to expand...

Yes. It's where all the nice people go to practice medicine.

I've had several female attendings, and at FSU you do a good deal of your rotations with private practice docs. Every attending I've had that is a private practice physician, female or male, has been a very nice, down to earth, realistic, willing to teach and not berate, all around nice person.
 
Final said:
no matter how much you bitch and moan, things dont change. may as well save that energy for something else.

next time: THINK - before you send me dumb links that waste precious time. :thumbdown:
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You are, of course, completely entitled to your opinion that this thread is dumb and useless. The funny thing is that you keep wasting your valuable time by adding caustic posts to it when you could be saving your energy and moving on to other threads, meditating, or doing whatever else floats your boat. :laugh:

Back to the original subject, I don't believe that all women are the same. I have met women in my life who are amazing professionals who conduct themselves without cattiness or b**chiness, but they are not attendings and most are not even in the medical profession. I have also met some really nice and chill female residents, but I don't know where they end up going after their training because I have not met any female attendings like them.

In response to the whole "this is life get over it" thought, I of course will still have to put up a mental block to whatever demeaning, catty, or malignant things attendings (whatever their gender is) may throw at me just to survive; so no, that won't change, and I have accepted that since you don't get to choose your 3rd year rotations or have much say in who you get to work with. That's not even the issue because I have my own ways to deal with the bullcrap that gets thrown at us. I was just wondering if other people are noticing the more divisive dynamics among women I have witnessed so far on the wards because as a woman I just find it a little disturbing that women are tougher on each other in a profession where being female already isn't easy. A lot of people have attendings as mentors, and judging from my experience so far I probably won't be able to find a cool female attending who can give me advice on excelling in a field where men still hold a disproportionate amount of power.

Also, good and pleasant interpersonal dynamics will make me happier in my work environment, so I do pay attention to this stuff as I start crossing specialties off my list. This means that I won't be doing OB Gyn, not because I didn't like the work, but because I just don't want to be in a tense, estrogen-filled, and abusive work environment for a big chunk of the rest of my life. Just as some people take salary and lifestyle into consideration, I am going to take future colleagues into consideration when deciding on a specialty and residency ... and from my observations so far I may have to risk being a self-hater and choose a specialty that tends to have more straightforward men. I was hoping that my observations are not really that global, but judging from some of the other posts, maybe they are. I'm just interested to read what other people have to say about their experiences with women on the wards.
 
Final said:
next time: THINK - before you send me dumb links that waste precious time. :thumbdown:
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Indeed. Thank you infinitely for your advice.

Wenckebach said:
I'm just interested to read what other people have to say about their experiences with women on the wards.
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As a guy, I generally found no abuse coming from women attendings, even the supposed b*tchy ones. I'm not really sure that I can ascribe that to being a guy or if it was just my personality. (Or maybe they were, and I just didn't care). I just couldn't stand all of the gossip and chatter when I was on the L&D floor, where the only men there were the fathers present for delivery, and myself. Its too much estogen. (don't get me wrong, sausage fests are no good either).
 
good story?
 
Hey Wenkebach! I agree with you that a lot of the women in medicine have chips on their shoulders the size of Montana. And in my experience it's not the "People of your own sex are harder on you" it's that "WOMEN are harder on EVERYONE." At least that's how my evals have gone. As you well know I learned on our FP rotation never to pick a woman to evaluate me again if I have the choice, now that I've been screwed over by them twice!

Oh, and this person "final" is a blood-belching vagina with chunky menorrhagia...I think she's just a troll anyways. I looked at her past posts and they're all just being rude to people, nothing substantive. Also she posts as much in pre-allo as she does here, so who knows she's probably just jerking everyone's chains and isn't really even in med school! If it makes you feel any better, she told me to drop out of med school back in July when we were on that horrible Ob/Gyn rotation :rolleyes:
 
Wenckebach said:
This means that I won't be doing OB Gyn, not because I didn't like the work, but because I just don't want to be in a tense, estrogen-filled, and abusive work environment for a big chunk of the rest of my life. Just as some people take salary and lifestyle into consideration, I am going to take future colleagues into consideration when deciding on a specialty and residency ...
Click to expand...

come over to emergency medicine. we have AWESOME female attendings. (I'm sure now everyone's going to come tell the story of some female EM attending who was a jerk to them, but this is my personal opinion and I'm giving it!) I'm an EM resident and I could take my pick of 10 different female attendings in my program who'd be fabulous role models, and none of them could care less if I am married, have kids, or what I do as long as I'm a great doctor.
 
I actually had an awesome female attending/ role model in surgery (which was otherwise not my bag!) Another female surg attending who was rather bitchy to the residents was nice to me and wanted to give me lots of advice on being a woman in medicine, surgery, etc...
Peds, plenty of women, not such great experiences.
FM, most of my attendings were men. I had one woman attending was pleasant (not hard to work with.) -What I'm going into btw.
Psych: 1 out of 2 attendings was female (pleasure to work with.)
OB-Gyn: All my attendings were male and a little rough around the edges. One private attending let me scrub on her c-section and was very nice to me.
Med: 0 female attendings...
EM: Haven't worked with one yet.

So I guess I didn't really have this problem. Worked with some passive-aggressive female residents, but others were nice.

Perhaps the reason female attendings may be more demanding and have higher standards is that they went through school and training when female docs were still rare. They probably felt that they had to prove that they had every right to be there by being smarter, working harder, etc... (that'll take an emotional toll after a while.)
 
i fly high, no lie, you know this....BALLIN!
foreign rides, outside, its like showbiz....BALLIN!
 
I worked for many years before going back to school and I can honestly say as a woman I would rather work with men ANY DAY! I can not stand the catty backstabbing behavior that many woman exhibit when they work in a group together. I worked with 45 men for 10 years and never had to deal with the amount of nasty gossip/ pissing and moaning behavior that went on in the year I worked with 3 women. With the guys if we had a disagreement we may have a few choice words for each other but it was never "personal". Even if one of us wanted to smack the other after a few heated words it was over and we could catch a beer together after work like it never happened.
I am constantly being told I will feel different after I experience "the old boys club" that often occurs in medicine. I simply can not imagine it being any different than the old boys club I worked with when I started working at a Ford dealership in parts and service. Once I had shown myself to be competent in my job I had 45 "brothers" who watched out for me but also considered my one of the guys.
I look forward to being proven wrong by meeting and working with some great women who have risen above what I experienced before. My interest is in Emergency Medicine so to hear there are many great interns/residents/attending etc in that field makes me anxious to meet them along the way!!
 
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