Unconventional, but ultimately truthful call to arms

[azor ahai]

I came to SDN a few months ago, really only being active in the last month. I caught a lot of flak from the community for wanting to retake a 35, but that's expected. What was new to me, however, was the general rule that your actual exam score should be 2 points lower than your average FL.

This did not make sense to me for a number of reasons, and I would like to point them out in an attempt to motivate all you brave souls taking the exam this month.

Why your FL's are less important than you think:

1. you learn from every FL
2. you learn from studying in the time since your last FL
3. even if you take all of the available FL's from every company, it's still too low of a sample size to make any worthwhile estimate of
4. they may lead to a defeatist attitude - eradicate this at all costs

I spent the majority of my test prep on content review since I had been out of school for 4 years. The first exam I took was in July. I didn't finish content review until two days before the exam, so I took AAMC 3 and 7 back-to-back. These were my scores:

• AAMC FL 3: BS 10; V 12; PS 10; Total: 32
• AAMC FL 7: BS 11; V 10; PS 11; Total: 32

The day before the exam, I took three back-to-back. These were my scores:

• AAMC FL 8: BS 10; V 11; PS 9; Total 30
• AAMC FL 9: BS 9; V 9; PS 10; Total: 28
  
• AAMC FL 11: BS 9; V 8; PS 10; Total 27

As you can see, my scores were going down - but this was expected for taking such an unconventional approach. I didn't treat them as any indicator of my actual score, I treated them as practice. Nothing more, nothing less.

I voided my July exam because I couldn't finish the PS section in time. Scheduled the next for Oct. 21st. Took one FL the day before this test at like midnight, and didn't even get to look over it. This was that score:

• AAMC FL 10: BS 10; V 10; PS 11; Total 31

Again, this just meant more practice. My October score:

• BS 11; V 13; PS 11; Total: 35

Could this be an anomaly? Sure, the Verbal section is notoriously unpredictable. I do not believe I can score a 13 again. But I did, and scored consistently higher in verbal than in the sciences without any prep for verbal. I concluded that I need to maximize my science prep, so I began to take FL's from other companies while skipping the verbal section. This allows me to do multiple tests a day like I did in July, but with more focus in my problem areas. These are my FL's from the past few days:

• Kaplan FL 2: BS 12; PS 10
• TBR FL 1: BS 12; PS 12
• TBR FL 2: PS 7 (probably) but also 12.

That low PS score was elucidated in this post. I spent about 20 minutes on one or two problems, and ended time without even looking at half the test. I did what I did in my July exam - which was a disaster. However, I restarted the timer and went at it again and got a 12. This may not mean much, but what it showed me was that I have a much better grasp of the material than I thought and simply need to move on if I spend too much time on a problem.

I am going to take as many FL's as I can in the upcoming days from alternative companies - doing only the sciences, but multiple a day. I have four AAMC's left and will save those for last. These I will do completely, because if I am to place verbal at a lower priority I might as well do the ones that are closest to the real thing.

--

Ultimately, it comes down to what you place more faith in. Your FL average or your actual score. I prefer the latter for the reasons explained in this post, but also because it is a far better motivator than the former.

There are a lot of hard and fast rules of thumb here at SDN, and they are very popular for a reason - they work for the majority of the population. They're generally good bits of information. But ultimately, you are the filter. It all depends on how you learn and do things. Statistics apply to the population, but are useless for the individual. Focus on the process, not the results. When you sit for your example, completely ignore your past performance and be open and plastic to what's in front of you. Every question has an answer, and you just have to find it. There is no way to be certain about the future, and you can make as many models as possible to make a prognosis. Truth is, the future is unwritten and you are here in the now to write it.

Be the outlier. As Han Solo said "Don't ever tell me the odds!".

Good luck to everyone. Remember, this isn't something you're doing just to get into med school. Think deeply about this - you are doing it to be the best that you can possibly be. Every great thing man has ever accomplished comes from this.

Do not throw away the hero in your soul. Hold holy your highest hope.

---

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[LuluLovesMe]

I disagree with the entirety of your post.

 

[Thoroughbred_Med]

On the contrary, I concur pretty much entirely with the elements in your post.

Verbal. Yes, it is unpredictable... in the sense that it varies from test to test. I have come to grips that I cannot improve my verbal score +/- 2 points. I average a 9... i feel like verbal is just an inherent weakness of mine and I've accepted that. Sure, maybe I could get that up to the 11-12 range if I practiced more, but I didn't and I won't.

The sciences, PS & BS CAN, for the most part, be consistently improved. I started an 8 in PS & BS back in July... studied my ass off during this past semester to literally know every concept that could be tested. I range from 12-14 in the sciences now.

I can't compare myself to the MCAT champs here on SDN. I can only compare myself to ME to try and beat ME every day.

 

[efle]

Yeah obviously if you take your FLs at midnight or three back to back they are worthless predictors. It's taking each one under real test conditions and looking at your average across all of them that lets them be predictive.

And the rule I've generally heard is that you should expect a score of your (realistically administered) FL average +/- 2 which is accurate in most cases

 

[deleted480308]

if you retake that 35, I predict you lowering your score

 

[touchpause13]

Why on earth would you retake a 35?

 

[TexasSurgeon]

I came to SDN a few months ago, really only being active in the last month. I caught a lot of flak from the community for wanting to retake a 35, but that's expected. What was new to me, however, was the general rule that your actual exam score should be 2 points lower than your average FL.

This did not make sense to me for a number of reasons, and I would like to point them out in an attempt to motivate all you brave souls taking the exam this month.

Why your FL's are less important than you think:

1. you learn from every FL
2. you learn from studying in the time since your last FL
3. even if you take all of the available FL's from every company, it's still too low of a sample size to make any worthwhile estimate of
4. they may lead to a defeatist attitude - eradicate this at all costs

I spent the majority of my test prep on content review since I had been out of school for 4 years. The first exam I took was in July. I didn't finish content review until two days before the exam, so I took AAMC 3 and 7 back-to-back. These were my scores:

• AAMC FL 3: BS 10; V 12; PS 10; Total: 32
• AAMC FL 7: BS 11; V 10; PS 11; Total: 32

The day before the exam, I took three back-to-back. These were my scores:

• AAMC FL 8: BS 10; V 11; PS 9; Total 30
• AAMC FL 9: BS 9; V 9; PS 10; Total: 28
  
• AAMC FL 11: BS 9; V 8; PS 10; Total 27

As you can see, my scores were going down - but this was expected for taking such an unconventional approach. I didn't treat them as any indicator of my actual score, I treated them as practice. Nothing more, nothing less.

I voided my July exam because I couldn't finish the PS section in time. Scheduled the next for Oct. 21st. Took one FL the day before this test at like midnight, and didn't even get to look over it. This was that score:

• AAMC FL 10: BS 10; V 10; PS 11; Total 31

Again, this just meant more practice. My October score:

• BS 11; V 13; PS 11; Total: 35

Could this be an anomaly? Sure, the Verbal section is notoriously unpredictable. I do not believe I can score a 13 again. But I did, and scored consistently higher in verbal than in the sciences without any prep for verbal. I concluded that I need to maximize my science prep, so I began to take FL's from other companies while skipping the verbal section. This allows me to do multiple tests a day like I did in July, but with more focus in my problem areas. These are my FL's from the past few days:

• Kaplan FL 2: BS 12; PS 10
• TBR FL 1: BS 12; PS 12
• TBR FL 2: PS 7 (probably) but also 12.

That low PS score was elucidated in this post. I spent about 20 minutes on one or two problems, and ended time without even looking at half the test. I did what I did in my July exam - which was a disaster. However, I restarted the timer and went at it again and got a 12. This may not mean much, but what it showed me was that I have a much better grasp of the material than I thought and simply need to move on if I spend too much time on a problem.

I am going to take as many FL's as I can in the upcoming days from alternative companies - doing only the sciences, but multiple a day. I have four AAMC's left and will save those for last. These I will do completely, because if I am to place verbal at a lower priority I might as well do the ones that are closest to the real thing.

--

Ultimately, it comes down to what you place more faith in. Your FL average or your actual score. I prefer the latter for the reasons explained in this post, but also because it is a far better motivator than the former.

There are a lot of hard and fast rules of thumb here at SDN, and they are very popular for a reason - they work for the majority of the population. They're generally good bits of information. But ultimately, you are the filter. It all depends on how you learn and do things. Statistics apply to the population, but are useless for the individual. Focus on the process, not the results. When you sit for your example, completely ignore your past performance and be open and plastic to what's in front of you. Every question has an answer, and you just have to find it. There is no way to be certain about the future, and you can make as many models as possible to make a prognosis. Truth is, the future is unwritten and you are here in the now to write it.

Be the outlier. As Han Solo said "Don't ever tell me the odds!".

Good luck to everyone. Remember, this isn't something you're doing just to get into med school. Think deeply about this - you are doing it to be the best that you can possibly be. Every great thing man has ever accomplished comes from this.

Do not throw away the hero in your soul. Hold holy your highest hope.

Agree with about 90%. But -10% for retaking a 35.

 

[azor ahai]

On the contrary, I concur pretty much entirely with the elements in your post.

Verbal. Yes, it is unpredictable... in the sense that it varies from test to test. I have come to grips that I cannot improve my verbal score +/- 2 points. I average a 9... i feel like verbal is just an inherent weakness of mine and I've accepted that. Sure, maybe I could get that up to the 11-12 range if I practiced more, but I didn't and I won't.

The sciences, PS & BS CAN, for the most part, be consistently improved. I started an 8 in PS & BS back in July... studied my ass off during this past semester to literally know every concept that could be tested. I range from 12-14 in the sciences now.

I can't compare myself to the MCAT champs here on SDN. I can only compare myself to ME to try and beat ME every day.

Awesome improvement in the sciences. Don't let yourself believe that verbal is an inherent weakness of yours. Even if it is, we exist to bulldoze these beliefs. Good luck, brother.

if you retake that 35, I predict you lowering your score

Only one way to find out, Ron.

Agree with about 90%. But -10% for retaking a 35.

perfectly fair!

GL everyone!

 

[efle]

Was the 35 balanced or are you retaking because one section was lopsidedly low?

 

[deleted480308]

just promise me you will come back and post your score after you take it so others can learn the lesson

 

[efle]

Jeez people are so quick to judge. If he has like a 14/13/8 then he should retake

 

[TheRhymenocerous]

I agree with a lot of this. SDN is an amazing resource and has been really helpful to me in studying, but I also try to bear in mind that I'm the one taking the test and what worked for someone else might not work for me, and vice versa. You know your strengths and weaknesses and test anxiety levels more than anyone and the fact that one person with similar practice scores to you did great/badly really has no bearing on how you'll do. Learn from other people, but trust yourself more!

 

[House D.O.]

35? Retake or work at mcdonalds.

 

[azor ahai]

Was the 35 balanced or are you retaking because one section was lopsidedly low?

It was somewhat balanced. 11's in the sciences and 13 in the verbal. i know i can do better in the sciences, especially considering i ran out of time in PS and didn't answer the last 4-5 questions. by that i mean i left them blank.

my major issue with PS was how i handled time and how much time i sunk into one or two problems. i'm the type of person who likes to think about a riddle or a proof for an entire day. this is obviously the worst thing you can do for a timed test.

just took TBR FL 3 PS and scored my very first 13! i'm very happy about this. Off to the next one.

Jeez people are so quick to judge. If he has like a 14/13/8 then he should retake

lol, you should see the first post where i mentioned it. you could hear the record scratch from jupiter. YES I KNOW THAT SOUND CANNOT TRAVEL IN A VACUUM.

I agree with a lot of this. SDN is an amazing resource and has been really helpful to me in studying, but I also try to bear in mind that I'm the one taking the test and what worked for someone else might not work for me, and vice versa. You know your strengths and weaknesses and test anxiety levels more than anyone and the fact that one person with similar practice scores to you did great/badly really has no bearing on how you'll do. Learn from other people, but trust yourself more!

honestly, it sounds like a platitude but it really didn't hit me until last night. know thyself, right?

just promise me you will come back and post your score after you take it so others can learn the lesson

haha, i will. but it's besides the point. at least in my opinion. regardless of what i end up getting, i gained so much in the process of studying for this exam that i wouldn't have it any other way. can't live in fear. i just want others to know that if they're scoring 25's not to fret. anything is possible.

triumph and disaster, treat those two impostors the same.

 

[Mavs88]

Are you retaking the 35 because you're trying to get into the Ivy Leagues of the world?

 

[efle]

I wouldn't retake an 11/13/11 unless you expect to hit a 39 or 40...unlikely if a 13 PS is a first

 

[Eppur Si Muove]

Don't do it OP!!

 

[justadream]

While I agree that in certain circumstances, retaking a 35 may be warranted (e.g., a score like 5/15/15), I disagree with some of the points.

Obviously, for the AAMC FLs to have any predictive value, you need to simulate real conditions as closely as possible (this means you don't take 3 exams back to back...).

With regard to
"you learn from every FL
you learn from studying in the time since your last FL"

Yes, maybe marginally. But if you follow SN2ed, then all your content review is done by the time you do AAMC FLs. I personally think the "content learning" from AAMC FLs is way overrated. The real value is getting used to the format. Just think about it -- what's the probability that you are going to see the exact same topic presented in the same way on another test? Not high.


With regard to
"even if you take all of the available FL's from every company, it's still too low of a sample size to make any worthwhile estimate of"

No, I disagree. If this premise were really true, than standardized testing (aka the MCAT itself) would have little meaningful value. Med schools only see the result from ONE (or at most 2-3) tests since you only take the MCAT 1-3 times. Med schools put a lot of faith into this (often singular) number. There's a reason for that. Standardized tests are designed to estimate your "true" ability relatively consistently. Sure, you might see some slight variation from what your "true" ability is and your real MCAT score but the difference is not going to be huge (barring some extraordinary circumstance like say having a heart attack during the exam).

According to this logic then, everyone should take the MCAT like 100 times (or maybe more?) in order to get an estimate OP finds satisfactory. No, doing the 8 or so AAMC FLs is more than sufficient to get a close estimate if your score - assuming that you simulate real conditions well. In fact, I would say even doing just 1-2 AAMC FLs would already provide a pretty good estimate already of your true ability.

 

[petyr_baelish]

gr8 b8 m8.

Remember, this isn't something you're doing just to get into med school. Think deeply about this - you are doing it to be the best that you can possibly be. Every great thing man has ever accomplished comes from this.

Do not throw away the hero in your soul. Hold holy your highest hope.

haha, i will. but it's besides the point. at least in my opinion. regardless of what i end up getting, i gained so much in the process of studying for this exam that i wouldn't have it any other way. can't live in fear. i just want others to know that if they're scoring 25's not to fret. anything is possible.

triumph and disaster, treat those two impostors the same.

But seriously, these quotes make me think that you are approaching the MCAT as a poetic mountain to climb rather than a practical and necessary hurdle to gain admission to medical school. It doesn't seem healthy or even sensical to me.

There are a myriad of ways to slay the proverbial dragon and feel like you performed your best at your limits that aren't the MCAT after you already killed it. These other things could provide the self-enrichment you seem to be after. These things may even benefit society or help you differentiate yourself in your application. What I'm trying to say is that you seem to be ascribing meaning to this MCAT retake that just isn't there after a certain point. It is meaningful to finally conquer a difficult test and to steadily persist toward your goals, yes. Congratulations, you've already achieved it. Now, you are just beating a dead horse.

There is a concept in Scandinavia called lagom that is pervasive in their culture. It can mean "good enough," "just right," and "less is more." I don't expect some esoteric foreign cultural reference to be persuasive, but I just want to highlight that entire societies are founded upon being happy rather than being the best. Once you have surpassed the threshold, it's time to relax, dude. You have your entire medical career to study beyond the threshold. It's not like learning more classical physics will help your future patients. That is why retaking a 35 is a colossal waste of time and energy, but it is a free country.

Good luck regardless.

 

[Goro]

This is an extremely dangerous attitude to have when one is already performing at an outstanding level. For the mid tier schools, like, say, Mt Sinai or Pitt, a 35 is either at or 1 point below avg. Even for Harvard or Yale...it's not that far away. At some point top end scores becoming diminishing returns. Is there really a difference between a 98 on a test and a 95?

It's OK to strive for perfection, however, being a perfectionist is not healthy. If you try to learn everything, you'll end up learning nothing.

i know i can do better in the sciences, especially considering i ran out of time in PS and didn't answer the last 4-5 questions. by that i mean i left them blank.

One more thing: retake a 35 and no matter what your new score is, you'll get rejected from @gyngyn's school (which is hardly a low-tier one, either).

 

[gyngyn]

One more thing: retake a 35 and no matter what your new score is, you'll get rejected from @gyngyn's school (which is hardly a low-tier one, either).

A single MCAT of 35 will not keep an otherwise strong candidate out of any school in the country.
An applicant who turns the last few percentage points of the MCAT into Moby Dick is missing the point of of the test. We are actually not looking for gunners.

 

[Goro]

I love this guy!

A single MCAT of 35 will will not keep an otherwise strong candidate out of any school in the country.
An applicant who turns the last few percentage points of the MCAT into Moby Dick is missing the point of of the test. We are not actually looking for gunners.

 

[azor ahai]

i stayed off SDN for the two days before my exam today and it was the best decision ever.

all this talk of AAMC averages was really discouraging.

i attempted to motivate people with this thread on it but i stopped checking this thread even because of posts like "do you want to get into the ivy leagues of the world" and "i predict that you will have a lower score". i ignored them at first, but when people started to hate me for using poetic language it just became too much.

i recall in another thread the user @DoctorInASaree was scheduled to take it again despite having a 39, and before she said that she wasn't taking it, people were posting things like "phenomenal. you must have a profound love for learning."

i've mentioned several times that that was my primary motivation for this.

@NextStepTutor_1 (don't know which number - frankly, don't care) even derided me for wanting to retake. even after we had spoken earlier about being tutors and wanting to do the best that we can because we loved learning. This guy retook a 41 three times. He must be insecure and a gunner, right.

i learned from some members here, @Cawolf, especially. i tried to offer help and advice especially in the MCAT study questions sub-forum.

but overall, this just reminds me why i don't keep pre-med friends irl. it is always a d1ck-measuring contest. you will either have people who hope you fail and get off on schadenfreude or people who think you're a "gunner" if you succeed.

to those of you who understood the purpose of my post - that it was to sincerely encourage you especially if you are being discouraged by your FL's - then I wish you the best. to those of you who disagree with my analyses of FL's being predictors - you are free to disagree and I value your feedback. to those of you who are just being d1cks (you know who you are) - stop fixating on my score. if you haven't gotten the point yet, then i hope you will some day when you aren't perpetually worrying about med school and can become a human being.

 

[efle]

Take a step back and realize your advice was being criticized because it will mislead most readers, not as a personal attack on you. It is a problem for you to say "hey, you average in the high 20's on FLs, don't sweat it! You'll do great like me!" because those are not your representative FL scores. You took the exams under really bad conditions like back-to-back or late at night, so of course on the real exam you perform markedly better. The majority of people with high 20 averages earned them under test day conditions, and they do represent what they should expect on test day.

Regarding the retake, well, we will have to wait and see your score. Given how balanced your 35 was I'd be pretty surprised to see you make a marked improvement to 39ish and have a good answer for the impending interview questions about retaking a 95th percentile score.

I guess in a month one of us gets to say I Told You So

 

[azor ahai]

Take a step back and realize your advice was being criticized because it will mislead most readers, not as a personal attack on you. It is a problem for you to say "hey, you average in the high 20's on FLs, don't sweat it! You'll do great like me!" because those are not your representative FL scores. You took the exams under really bad conditions like back-to-back or late at night, so of course on the real exam you perform markedly better. The majority of people with high 20 averages earned them under test day conditions, and they do represent what they should expect on test day.

Regarding the retake, well, we will have to wait and see your score. Given how balanced your 35 was I'd be pretty surprised to see you make a marked improvement to 39ish and have a good answer for the impending interview questions about retaking a 95th percentile score.

I guess in a month one of us gets to say I Told You So

If you're still thinking in terms of "I told you so" then you are still missing the point.

In fact, I don't think you've even read my post. There is a major difference between "don't worry if you're getting 20's" and coming face to face with the reality that your exam is going to come whether you like it or not and that the worst thing you can do is fixate on your low scores.

Here's an example. What do you think is the best thing to tell this person? I like the user who responded, but telling a person who's that discouraged by his recent performance that he will most likely score 2pts. lower is the worst thing to tell that person.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't care if my advice is being criticized. Did you even read it? I value that. What is disheartening, however, is how the only thing some people take from my thread is "this guy got a 35 - who does he think he is!"

What is worse than disheartening are those who dislike my poetic language. I mean the title of this thread is "call to arms". What did you expect?

In addition, I can't believe you have the audacity to demand a score higher than a 39 from me. Back tf up.

 

[efle]

If you're still thinking in terms of "I told you so" then you are still missing the point.

In fact, I don't think you've even read my post. There is a major difference between "don't worry if you're getting 20's" and coming face to face with the reality that your exam is going to come whether you like it or not and that the worst thing you can do is fixate on your low scores.

Here's an example. What do you think is the best thing to tell this person? I like the user who responded, but telling a person who's that discouraged by his recent performance that he will most likely score 2pts. lower is the worst thing to tell that person.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't care if my advice is being criticized. Did you even read it? I value that. What is disheartening, however, is how the only thing some people take from my thread is "this guy got a 35 - who does he think he is!"

What is worse than disheartening are those who dislike my poetic language. I mean the title of this thread is "call to arms". What did you expect?

In addition, I can't believe you have the audacity to demand a score higher than a 39 from me. Back tf up.

I wasn't serious about the I Told You So, it's more like agree to disagree until it resolves itself.

The center of your post is that FL's are less important than people say, which I'm trying to point out is only true for you because you didn't take them like FL test day practice.

That poster gave the correct advice. When coming from a CC or unknown program, the MCAT is used to check the validity of the high GPA. A 3.9 with a 30 vs several points higher is a huge difference for that applicant. If he is not going to be happy with a score reflecting his practice 30+/-2, lately more likely on the lower side if SDN threads are any indication, then he should wait to take more prereqs and study more. "Ignore it and proceed" is some laughably bad advice - ignoring unsatisfactory practice scores only worked for you because you handicapped yourself on said practice tests.

I take no issue with your 35, which is not impressive in the crowd of many 4.1/46s gunners that is SDN, or with your writing style.

As for the 39, I don't personally demand anything of you, I'm going by the previously posted advice from adcoms saying that you'd better show a gain of several points to justify retaking a good score, and even then be prepared to have your judgement/gunnery questioned

 

[azor ahai]

I wasn't serious about the I Told You So, it's more like agree to disagree until it resolves itself.

The center of your post is that FL's are less important than people say, which I'm trying to point out is only true for you because you didn't take them like FL test day practice.

That poster gave the correct advice. When coming from a CC or unknown program, the MCAT is used to check the validity of the high GPA. A 3.9 with a 30 vs several points higher is a huge difference for that applicant. If he is not going to be happy with a score reflecting his practice 30+/-2, lately more likely on the lower side if SDN threads are any indication, then he should wait to take more prereqs and study more. "Ignore it and proceed" is some laughably bad advice - ignoring unsatisfactory practice scores only worked for you because you handicapped yourself on said practice tests.

I take no issue with your 35, which is not impressive in the crowd of many 4.1/46s gunners that is SDN, or with your writing style.

As for the 39, I don't personally demand anything of you, I'm going by the previously posted advice from adcoms saying that you'd better show a gain of several points to justify retaking a good score, and even then be prepared to have your judgement/gunnery questioned

The center of my post is to motivate. We can discuss the validity of FL avg., but that is not the center of my post.

"ignore it and proceed" is the reason I scored well on the real thing. If you find it to be "laughably bad advice" then that is your opinion. Maybe it's your opinion, who knows when it's just parroting what everyone else says.

I did not say you took issue with my writing style. I am addressing those who did.

The 39 was uncalled for. So was the "I told you so" which wasn't really a joke. It seems like even scoring a 45 would be met with malice.

You should start to think for yourself instead of some "previously posted advice from adcoms".

So is saying that my 35 is not impressive. What did you get? Even if you had gotten a "46" you are being a d1ck and don't know it because you are simply agreeing with the herd.

Upon thinking about this further, I'm considering not even sharing my grade when I get it back. I have tried my best to help but am met with complete a$$holes. Continue to follow SN2 and impose a ceiling on yourself because you will never improve. Why bother getting an A if you GPA is already crap? I'm done here.

 

[touchpause13]

I just have the urge again to say this is a stupid idea.

Be prepared to have your judgement questioned

 

[azor ahai]

I just have the urge again to say this is a stupid idea.

Be prepared to have your judgement questioned

And you with 10,500 posts is an even better reminder of why I should stay away from here.

Wishing people luck seems to piss insecure premeds off a great deal. No wonder the MCAT is so difficult - too much focus on critical thinking and not enough of what 'user998383' said. Especially explains the verbal scores - no one here reads. Everyone's on a delightful path to becoming miserable jaded physicians. perfect examples of what i don't want to be.

it's been mostly not-fun but i'm dropping the mic on your basic b!tches.

 

[touchpause13]

And you with 10,500 posts is an even better reminder of why I should stay away from here.

Wishing people luck seems to piss insecure premeds off a great deal. No wonder the MCAT is so difficult - too much focus on critical thinking and not enough of what 'user998383' said. Especially explains the verbal scores - no one here reads. Everyone's on a delightful path to becoming miserable jaded physicians. perfect examples of what i don't want to be.

it's been mostly not-fun but i'm dropping the mic on your basic b!tches.

I'm so disappointed this is too long to put in my signature.

Dying rn

 

[azor ahai]

I'm so disappointed this is too long to put in my signature.

Dying rn

just copy and paste it into every post. it's what you're best at, isn't it?

 

[touchpause13]

just copy and paste it into every post. it's what you're best at, isn't it?

Oh sweetie

You wanna come for me?

 

[efle]

The center of my post is to motivate. We can discuss the validity of FL avg., but that is not the center of my post.

"ignore it and proceed" is the reason I scored well on the real thing. If you find it to be "laughably bad advice" then that is your opinion. Maybe it's your opinion, who knows when it's just parroting what everyone else says.

I did not say you took issue with my writing style. I am addressing those who did.

The 39 was uncalled for. So was the "I told you so" which wasn't really a joke. It seems like even scoring a 45 would be met with malice.

You should start to think for yourself instead of some "previously posted advice from adcoms".

So is saying that my 35 is not impressive. What did you get? Even if you had gotten a "46" you are being a d1ck and don't know it because you are simply agreeing with the herd.

Upon thinking about this further, I'm considering not even sharing my grade when I get it back. I have tried my best to help but am met with complete a$$holes. Continue to follow SN2 and impose a ceiling on yourself because you will never improve. Why bother getting an A if you GPA is already crap? I'm done here.

because your fls were not taken under testing conditions, and can be ignored as halfhearted practice. this is not good advice to give someone who has taken fls under test conditions and gotten an unsatisfactory score.

Dude scoring a 45 would be baller, and I hope you have nothing but success. I am just trying to convey that your ability to do well in spite of bad practice scores reflects the way you took them, not that they should be paid less attention by prospective takers who self-proctor them as test day simulation.

How could I possibly have my own opinion on how adcoms will perceive a high score retake? You have to go by what they say, inventing my own idea of how it should or might be perceived is worthless.

I broke 40 and landed dead on my FL average, not sure how that's relevant - you were the one claiming people say "this guy got a 35 - who does he think he is!" and I am pointing out that in every MCAT thread come score release there are many people making very high scores. Similarly, top colleges and high GPAs are way over represented on here. I really doubt you're being faulted as a narcissist for saying you got a 35.

Let me ask you this - if you do get a 39 on your retake, will you then take it again since you could go higher? At what point do you feel you've realized your potential/satisfied your ego? I'm sure if you do end up murdering it you'll tell us about it in a 3-part saga written in verse (I kid, I kid), so I'll just bump the thread in a month and either we can have a good retro discussion or your silence can speak volumes for you.

I get that you're trying to send a message of inspiration and finding one's limits etc. Just realize that for people who are fully prepped and take the FLs under test conditions, they are a good gauge of that limit, and that your desire to retake a 35 is very likely to be seen by adcoms as a blend of poor judgement and a need to validate your intelligence.

 

[justadream]

I came to SDN a few months ago, really only being active in the last month. I caught a lot of flak from the community for wanting to retake a 35, but that's expected. What was new to me, however, was the general rule that your actual exam score should be 2 points lower than your average FL.

This did not make sense to me for a number of reasons, and I would like to point them out in an attempt to motivate all you brave souls taking the exam this month.

Why your FL's are less important than you think:

1. you learn from every FL
2. you learn from studying in the time since your last FL
3. even if you take all of the available FL's from every company, it's still too low of a sample size to make any worthwhile estimate of
4. they may lead to a defeatist attitude - eradicate this at all costs

I spent the majority of my test prep on content review since I had been out of school for 4 years. The first exam I took was in July. I didn't finish content review until two days before the exam, so I took AAMC 3 and 7 back-to-back. These were my scores:

• AAMC FL 3: BS 10; V 12; PS 10; Total: 32
• AAMC FL 7: BS 11; V 10; PS 11; Total: 32

The day before the exam, I took three back-to-back. These were my scores:

• AAMC FL 8: BS 10; V 11; PS 9; Total 30
• AAMC FL 9: BS 9; V 9; PS 10; Total: 28
  
• AAMC FL 11: BS 9; V 8; PS 10; Total 27

As you can see, my scores were going down - but this was expected for taking such an unconventional approach. I didn't treat them as any indicator of my actual score, I treated them as practice. Nothing more, nothing less.

I voided my July exam because I couldn't finish the PS section in time. Scheduled the next for Oct. 21st. Took one FL the day before this test at like midnight, and didn't even get to look over it. This was that score:

• AAMC FL 10: BS 10; V 10; PS 11; Total 31

Again, this just meant more practice. My October score:

• BS 11; V 13; PS 11; Total: 35

Could this be an anomaly? Sure, the Verbal section is notoriously unpredictable. I do not believe I can score a 13 again. But I did, and scored consistently higher in verbal than in the sciences without any prep for verbal. I concluded that I need to maximize my science prep, so I began to take FL's from other companies while skipping the verbal section. This allows me to do multiple tests a day like I did in July, but with more focus in my problem areas. These are my FL's from the past few days:

• Kaplan FL 2: BS 12; PS 10
• TBR FL 1: BS 12; PS 12
• TBR FL 2: PS 7 (probably) but also 12.

That low PS score was elucidated in this post. I spent about 20 minutes on one or two problems, and ended time without even looking at half the test. I did what I did in my July exam - which was a disaster. However, I restarted the timer and went at it again and got a 12. This may not mean much, but what it showed me was that I have a much better grasp of the material than I thought and simply need to move on if I spend too much time on a problem.

I am going to take as many FL's as I can in the upcoming days from alternative companies - doing only the sciences, but multiple a day. I have four AAMC's left and will save those for last. These I will do completely, because if I am to place verbal at a lower priority I might as well do the ones that are closest to the real thing.

--

Ultimately, it comes down to what you place more faith in. Your FL average or your actual score. I prefer the latter for the reasons explained in this post, but also because it is a far better motivator than the former.

There are a lot of hard and fast rules of thumb here at SDN, and they are very popular for a reason - they work for the majority of the population. They're generally good bits of information. But ultimately, you are the filter. It all depends on how you learn and do things. Statistics apply to the population, but are useless for the individual. Focus on the process, not the results. When you sit for your example, completely ignore your past performance and be open and plastic to what's in front of you. Every question has an answer, and you just have to find it. There is no way to be certain about the future, and you can make as many models as possible to make a prognosis. Truth is, the future is unwritten and you are here in the now to write it.

Be the outlier. As Han Solo said "Don't ever tell me the odds!".

Good luck to everyone. Remember, this isn't something you're doing just to get into med school. Think deeply about this - you are doing it to be the best that you can possibly be. Every great thing man has ever accomplished comes from this.

Do not throw away the hero in your soul. Hold holy your highest hope.

You seem to really dislike the thinking to "expect your real score to be 2 points less than AAMC average". I think the general idea is +/- 2 points. However, I think the general idea that you will score below your AAMC average holds for most people who took their practice tests seriously and under realistic conditions (which you DID NOT). On the real test, people tend to get more nervous and make more mistakes. People also tend to second-guess their answers more and work more slowly.

I think the general gist of your thinking is that everyone should just disregard their practice averages and expect to score higher on the real thing. The reality is that that will not happen for most people. Worse, this delusion just leads to greater disappointment when the real score comes out. I went in the test knowing I was probably gonna score 1-2 points less than my average. Even still, I tried my hardest to score above average. When I scored slightly below my average I was slightly disappointed but I accepted it (instead of immediately and irrationally wanting to retake 95+percentile scores*).

I can sympathize with being a perfectionist with regard to scores. Because of score choice, I retook some very high SAT scores to see if I could score even higher. However, as numerous adcoms on this forum have pointed out repeatedly, for the MCAT and medical school purposes, retaking high and balanced scores looks really bad. If you don't want to follow that advice, that's on you. But if your goal is to make a better impression on adcoms, you should probably follow it.

*Assuming it is reasonably balanced

 

[efle]

*Assuming it is reasonably balanced

It is, 11/13/11. He's delusional and thinks his retake will be seen as a noble effort to realize the full potential of his mind or some such. Even if that's the true motivation, I expect all it will say to adcoms is "I'm too special to score a mere 95%ile and enjoy gambling with the quality of my application for the sake of my ego"

Edit: Also, he already took his retake

 

[touchpause13]

For the record OP I wish no ill will upon you. You came here looking for some kind of feedback and I'm giving it to you. A 35 is a really great score. I sincerely doubt that upping it will open that many more doors for you, and it's risky because 1. You might not do so hot and 2. It (as LizzyM pointed out) kinda makes you look like a gunner.

You already have so many doors open to you, retaking a 35 just seems neurotic/ overly perfectionistic which aren't exact traits that medical schools try to select for

 

[Ailleurs]

First of all, you shouldn't criticize people for having an opinion contrary to yours. Nor should you care, unless it's warranted advice. If this is something you are set on doing, nobody but yourself can stop you. So just do what you really want to do, but without getting upset at others. You're going to have to learn to do this a lot in life because people are gonna try to walk on you no matter what.

As for the motivational aspect, I think a lot of people totally missed that since they saw you taking FLs in unconventional manners and automatically assumed your advice is no good. But, I do agree with what you said about sample size. 8 AAMC exams is in no way enough of a sample size to be an accurate predictor of your actual score, statistically. It just so happens that for many their actual score is similar to their scores. But this is probably only because you don't hear about the many, many people who receive scores that are NOT similar to their practice scores. There are too many factors to consider. Thank you for the advice and motivation, but do remember to simulate practice exams to the best of your ability It really does help as I'm sure you are aware.

 

[efle]

8 AAMC exams is in no way enough of a sample size to be an accurate predictor of your actual score, statistically

Not quite. This goes a lot deeper than "n must > 30 to be sig". Each individual test has a 66% confidence interval of +/-2; across 8 exams you do get a powerful predictor. If it were true that scores could frequently fluctuate wildly among fully prepared testers, the MCAT would be useless as a standardized test.

 

[Ailleurs]

Not quite. This goes a lot deeper than "n must > 30 to be sig". Each individual test has a 66% confidence interval of +/-2; across 8 exams you do get a powerful predictor. If it were true that scores could frequently fluctuate wildly among fully prepared testers, the MCAT would be useless as a standardized test.

You are mostly right. I did not say that scores fluctuate wildly as you stated, I'm just saying it's not a truly accurate predictor (within 95% CI). I don't feel satisfied knowing any single test has a 66% CI of reflecting my actual score. Everyone has their own opinion!

 

[efle]

You are mostly right. I did not say that scores fluctuate wildly as you stated, I'm just saying it's not a truly accurate predictor (within 95% CI). I don't feel satisfied knowing any single test has a 66% CI of reflecting my actual score. Everyone has their own opinion!

A single practice exam is not a 95% CI predictor within +/- 2, but performance across a group of 8 of them is.

How many times would you take the MCAT to be satisfied that your score is a good reflector of your abilities? Must be more than 8

Yeah everyone gets an opinion. The opinion "Oh, you took your practice exams in test conditions and got an unsatisfactory high 20's/low 30's average? You should ignore it and proceed" is an extremely dangerous and bad one which I feel obligated to point out

 

[Ailleurs]

.

 

[efle]

@azor ahai's retake score gets released in these next couple days

How'd it go, did you substantially improve on your 35?

 

[mcloaf]

@azor ahai's retake score gets released in these next couple days

How'd it go, did you substantially improve on your 35?

I don't want to wish a poor MCAT score on anyone, but I shudder to think how much terrible advice will result if OP significantly improves.

 

[efle]

OK turns out I was way early with the last bump, scores actually just now went out

so @azor ahai don't keep us in suspense too long!!1!

 

[aseidner]

Looking at the MCAT scores thread for January 13th, it appears that he did get a 39 with 13 in each section. @azor ahai you achieved success by taking your own path, which, at least to me, is impressive. I don't know how widely applicable your approach would be, but I'm glad it worked for you.

 

[azor ahai]

Looking at the MCAT scores thread for January 13th, it appears that he did get a 39 with 13 in each section. @azor ahai you achieved success by taking your own path, which, at least to me, is impressive. I don't know how widely applicable your approach would be, but I'm glad it worked for you.

Thank you. I don't like looking back at this thread because I feel a bit ashamed at the way I reacted to some of the posts. A month away from SDN cooled me down. I just want the take home message from me to be to never give up and to always focus on doing better.

 

[Silence in ER]

Congrats azor. Now please stop updating this thread. Thanks.

 

[efle]

He did it!!! Even hit the 39 he got so offended about earlier

So when do you retake it to reach full potential and get the 45??

 

[azor ahai]

So when do you retake it to reach full potential and get the 45??

 

[efle]

I wonder how many future test takers will be influenced by this thread to say "haters/adcoms gonna hate" and retake a 96th percentile score

I suppose next we see whether you really get flak from interviewers/app readers for a successful retake