University of Toronto or University of Minnesota

[onechin]

So I'm in a dilemma and I would like to hear outside perspective.

So I'm a Canadian student and I recently got accepted to University of Toronto and University of Minnesota.
If I attend UofMN then my obvious cons are the higher tuition rate and the fact I'm an international student. (So if you are an international student, I would love to hear your experience in being in pharmacy school and finding jobs afterwards) But UofMN has a smaller class size and it felt very personal and friendly.
If I attend UofT then my cons would be the "institutionalized" environment, the fact that the pharmD is a newer program, and living with my parents again. The pros would be living with my parents and lower tuition cost.

I would love to hear any input about this except for the fact that I wasn't thinking and didn't apply to a university with warmer weather.

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[GoldfishPharmD]

I've learned to follow the money. The lesser the debt. The better.

 

[Digsbe]

What's the tuition difference? One thing to consider is where you want to work and live after you graduate. I was in Toronto a little over a month ago and I loved it there, I strongly considered immigrating to Canada (still thinking). However, being a US grad has its hurdles if you want to work in Canada. From the fees I've seen I think it would also cost me as an international grad roughly 2.5k USD to get a license on top of 12 weeks reduced intern pay. I've talked to a pharmacist in Canada when I was up there, so this is anecdotal, but they told me having a US PharmD would have an edge in getting a job (and clinical positions in hospitals) but ultimately Canadian pharmacists make significantly less money from what I've been finding. Salary data I've found says the average pay is between 95-105k per year in Canadian dollars (which with the current conversion amounts to about 75-85k USD per year). I don't know if it's true that a US PharmD would hold more clout in the Canadian job market (I was told this by 1 pharmacist), but if you think that would give you an edge that's something to consider. If you want to work in Canada I'd probably go to the University of Toronto, not only because it would be cheaper but getting licensed will be easier. US grads have to do a 12 week internship post graduation in Canada to be eligible for a license after they pass their exams, it's not that much time in the grand scheme of things but it's something you'd have to do if you want to live in Canada with a US PharmD. If you want to work in the US I'd go to Minnesota, if you want to work in Canada I'd go to the University of Toronto. Then again, if you'd rather have education at the University of Minnesota that's up to you to personally evaluate. You can't really put a cost on experiences though, if you want to experience living in the US and having a US education that's also something for you to personally value. I myself loved being in Toronto, and I'm evaluating the personal cost of moving there (while trying to research the opportunities there for pharmacists as well).

 

[torontopharm]

I'd go to Minnesota if money isn't an issue. From what i know, it's a much easier road coming back to Canada (American grads are exempt from the PEBC evaluation exam and can proceed directly to the qualifying exams) than to do it in reverse. Also, salaries are SIGNIFICANTLY higher in the states. Salaries currently hover around low to mid 30's an hour in GTA, from talking to multiple international pharmacy grads that got licensed here. All of them were able to get the required internship hours with ease from western Canada, so i'm assuming that's the easier part in the licensing process.

The trend is similar in BC according to this http://forums.redflagdeals.com/pharmacists-what-do-we-do-why-we-needed-how-much-do-we-make-1757937/

Also, being a former community college grad in Canada, i can tell you that literally half the population in my college were studying to get through the PEBC licensing process whilst completing their diploma. While many probably wouldn't make it through, i'd be worried about saturation, despite how hard it is to get into Pharm schools here. I know this probably sounds like another "doom and gloom" post, but just wanted to give my $0.02.

 

[Digsbe]

I'd go to Minnesota if money isn't an issue. From what i know, it's a much easier road coming back to Canada (American grads are exempt from the PEBC evaluation exam and can proceed directly to the qualifying exams) than to do it in reverse. Also, salaries are SIGNIFICANTLY higher in the states. Salaries currently hover around low to mid 30's an hour in GTA, from talking to multiple international pharmacy grads that got licensed here. All of them were able to get the required internship hours with ease from western Canada, so i'm assuming that's the easier part in the licensing process.

The trend is similar in BC according to this http://forums.redflagdeals.com/pharmacists-what-do-we-do-why-we-needed-how-much-do-we-make-1757937/

Also, being a former community college grad in Canada, i can tell you that literally half the population in my college were studying to get through the PEBC licensing process whilst completing their diploma. While many probably wouldn't make it through, i'd be worried about saturation, despite how hard it is to get into Pharm schools here. I know this probably sounds like another "doom and gloom" post, but just wanted to give my $0.02.

Oh wow, I didn't realize salaries were that low. With the exchange rate mid-low 30's in CAD is almost less than half what US pharmacists make.

 

[torontopharm]

Oh wow, I didn't realize salaries were that low. With the exchange rate mid-low 30's in CAD is almost less than half what US pharmacists make.

To be fair, my experience is limited to Toronto and it's surrounding areas. There's a huge influx of foreign pharmacists in Toronto, leading to the decreased salary. When i was looking into Pharmacy back in the days (~2009), Alberta by far offered the highest compensation and job opportunities for Pharmacists. I'm not quite sure if that has changed or not. Quebec will most likely always be the best, but they make you take a French test. Perhaps salary would take a boost when PharmD becomes the standard across all provinces as opposed to BSc Pharm? I really can't say.

I'm not trying to deter you from moving here of course (Toronto is AWESOME), or anyone from studying Pharmacy per say. I'd just be open to moving to the less saturated provinces for the big bucks.

 

[Digsbe]

To be fair, my experience is limited to Toronto and it's surrounding areas. There's a huge influx of foreign pharmacists in Toronto, leading to the decreased salary. When i was looking into Pharmacy back in the days (~2009), Alberta by far offered the highest compensation and job opportunities for Pharmacists. I'm not quite sure if that has changed or not. Quebec will most likely always be the best, but they make you take a French test. Perhaps salary would take a boost when PharmD becomes the standard across all provinces as opposed to BSc Pharm? I really can't say.

I'm not trying to deter you from moving here of course (Toronto is AWESOME), or anyone from studying Pharmacy per say. I'd just be open to moving to the less saturated provinces for the big bucks.

I'd want to live in Toronto, I loved the city and I have a few friends there. Haven't been to Aleberta but I have a good friend that moved to Edmonton to be near her husband's family. Maybe I'll settle for Buffalo, New York (assuming I can find a job there, seems saturated) where the houses are cheaper and I'm only an hour and a half drive away to go and visit Toronto when I want. Getting a Nexus card seems to make border crossing really fast, especially since few cars are in the line (at least this was the case when I crossed over at the Detroit-Windsor crossing). Do you know if there is much of a difference for hospital or clinical pharmacy? I'd hope foreign grads (or rather, non North America grads) don't get those positions as easily.

 

[torontopharm]

I'd want to live in Toronto, I loved the city and I have a few friends there. Haven't been to Aleberta but I have a good friend that moved to Edmonton to be near her husband's family. Maybe I'll settle for Buffalo, New York (assuming I can find a job there, seems saturated) where the houses are cheaper and I'm only an hour and a half drive away to go and visit Toronto when I want. Getting a Nexus card seems to make border crossing really fast, especially since few cars are in the line (at least this was the case when I crossed over at the Detroit-Windsor crossing). Do you know if there is much of a difference for hospital or clinical pharmacy? I'd hope foreign grads (or rather, non North America grads) don't get those positions as easily.

I have no clue about hospital or clinical pharmacy to be honest. Check out this site http://www.cshp.ca/programs/residencyTraining/index_e.asp They have a lot of info there. My gut tells me foreign pharmacists (mostly Egyptian or South Asian in Toronto) wouldn't bother with clinical pharmacy anyway and prefer retail environment more, but that's just my guess.
If i had to work in the states, i'd prefer Buffalo as well! I'm psychologically comforted by the idea of being close to Toronto It's a bit busier at the Buffalo-Niagara border but the Nexus card definitely helps unless it's Boxing day (our Black Friday equivalent) or something.

How's the market in Michigan? I think they only have 2 pharmacy schools so i'm assuming it's not as saturated. Besides Toronto, i'd recommend Vancouver just because their weather is nicer. I have a family friend who's in the process of opening up his own pharmacy in BC. I have no clue about the logistics but i intend to find out once he has it up and running. I don't think it's AS bad as it appears to be in the states.

 

[Digsbe]

I have no clue about hospital or clinical pharmacy to be honest. Check out this site http://www.cshp.ca/programs/residencyTraining/index_e.asp They have a lot of info there. My gut tells me foreign pharmacists (mostly Egyptian or South Asian in Toronto) wouldn't bother with clinical pharmacy anyway and prefer retail environment more, but that's just my guess.
If i had to work in the states, i'd prefer Buffalo as well! I'm psychologically comforted by the idea of being close to Toronto It's a bit busier at the Buffalo-Niagara border but the Nexus card definitely helps unless it's Boxing day (our Black Friday equivalent) or something.

How's the market in Michigan? I think they only have 2 pharmacy schools so i'm assuming it's not as saturated. Besides Toronto, i'd recommend Vancouver just because their weather is nicer. I have a family friend who's in the process of opening up his own pharmacy in BC. I have no clue about the logistics but i intend to find out once he has it up and running. I don't think it's AS bad as it appears to be in the states.

Thanks for the link!

And I made the mistake of crossing over during the Victoria Day weekend celebrations (didn't know about it) and then came back to the US on Memorial Day, so both ways I was screwed. Only crossed once so that was my experience, I just noticed the Nexus lane usually had little to no cars and it moved faster when one went through. One plus to Buffalo is I think housing is super cheap right now, many places in the rust belt have cheap housing if you want to be a homeowner (the problem would be trying to sell it again one day though).

From what I've seen Michigan looks okay, definitely lots of jobs in rural MI and some near Detroit if people wanted to live in the city. Although Crossing at the Detroit-Windsor border crossing still requires roughly a three and a half hour drive to get to Toronto from that end with nothing much in between. If I had to pick I think I'd pick Buffalo though, plus it would be nicer to be moments from Niagara Falls. Detroit is probably the worst off out of all the rust belt cities.