URM Filipino

[gyngyn]

Then why did 51 US MD schools accept 0 Filipinos last year? minority?

There are many possible explanations. That they didn't have an under-served Filipino community is the most likely, though.

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[texan2414]

Who said I was doing this for personal gain? What if I genuinely care about the representation of my ethnicity in medicine? What if the fact that I've never seen a Filipino doctor in my lifetime means I've never had a role-model? What if a Filipino undergraduate student at one of those medical schools decides "as a Filipino, it must be impossible to get into medical school" after seeing none at their school, so they decide not to pursue medicine? There are much bigger issues than me getting URM designation. Filipinos need to be represented in U.S. medical schools.

I would advise that person to find deeper motivations for going into medicine other than race/ethnicity (love of the sciences, devotion to community service, desire to participate in a self-less profession, etc).

You are grossly simplifying a highly complicated issue by invoking race as a factor in nearly every assertion you make.

 

[coolio24567]

I would advise that person to find deeper motivations for going into medicine other than race/ethnicity (love of the sciences, devotion to community service, desire to participate in a self-less profession, etc).

You are grossly simplifying a highly complicated issue by invoking race as a factor in nearly every assertion you make.

That's easy to say if you're of an adequately represented race in medicine and medical schools. I have literally seen zero Filipino physicians in my life. I personally know zero Filipino medical students, and I am well connected with the Filipino community. A lot of minorities want to serve their own communities and if they don't have role-models then that process can be much harder/less likely to happen. If I only spoke Tagalog and wanted a Filipino physician, I'd be screwed.

 

[texan2414]

That's easy to say if you're of an adequately represented race in medicine and medical schools. I have literally seen zero Filipino physicians in my life. I personally know zero Filipino medical students, and I am well connected with the Filipino community. A lot of minorities want to serve their own communities and if they don't have role-models then that process can be much harder/less likely to happen. If I only spoke Tagalog and wanted a Filipino physician, I'd be screwed.

No its easy to say it because I have common sense.

 

[coolio24567]

No its easy to say it because I have common sense.

Bias. How many physicians and medical students do you know of your own ethnicity? Too many to count?

 

[texan2414]

Bias. How many physicians and medical students do you know of your own ethnicity? Too many to count?

No, I just have better things to do with my time than go finger counting people of my ethnicity.

 

[coolio24567]

No, I just have better things to do with my time than go finger counting people of my ethnicity.

Oh it's good that it would actually take time for you. Let me count all the ones I know. Okay, done. Zero.

Are you starting to understand that you can't assume to understand my perspective based on your own experiences? Understanding your own biases and prejudices is very important as a physician.

 

[Person0715]

There are many possible explanations. That they didn't have an under-served Filipino community is the most likely, though.

I think this, combined with the fact that there are just not many filipino medical school applicants. This is just anecdotal evidence, but throughout the interview trail I did not meet one filipino interviewee, med student, or faculty member.

 

[coolio24567]

I think this, combined with the fact that there are just not many filipino medical school applicants. This is just anecdotal evidence, but throughout the interview I did not meet one filipino interviewee or med student.

Hence their underrepresentation in medical schools. They are the second largest Asian-American minority in the U.S with 3.4 million Filipino-Americans. There are 3.8 million Chinese-Americans and 3.18 million Indian-Americans.

However, there are 3270 Indian, 2762 Chinese, and only 543 Filipino applicants. (AAMC, pg. 22, figure 7)
I'm trying to make the point that Filipinos get displaced by other Asian minorities if they are all lumped together as "Asian". Asian minorities that have more applicants are going to have more applicants on the right side of the bell curve, and will displace Filipinos, making them disproportionately represented in medical schools.

 

[coolio24567]

I think this, combined with the fact that there are just not many filipino medical school applicants. This is just anecdotal evidence, but throughout the interview trail I did not meet one filipino interviewee, med student, or faculty member.

I don't think a medical school can call themselves "diverse" if they completely ignore representation for 3.4 million people.

 

[Mad Jack]

Who said I was doing this for personal gain? What if I genuinely care about the representation of my ethnicity in medicine? What if the fact that I've never seen a Filipino doctor in my lifetime means I've never had a role-model? What if a Filipino undergraduate student at one of those medical schools decides "as a Filipino, it must be impossible to get into medical school" after seeing none at their school, so they decide not to pursue medicine? There are much bigger issues than me getting URM designation. These are issues that represented ethnicities don't have to face. Filipinos need to be represented in U.S. medical schools.

You should come get a job at my old hospital. We had a ton of Filipino physicians. And I'm in the NE, not even Cali.

I also love how you are like, "these 51 schools didn't take any Filipinos" while ignoring that UC Irvine had nearly 6% of their class composed of Filipinos. People tend to apply to schools that are either where they're from. There's more Filipinos in Cali than elsewhere, so it's likely the strong applicants are concentrated there, hence why they are probably overrepresented in many CA schools but underrepresented in many places (such as the midwest). Diversity doesn't mean having every single group represented, just that your school isn't monolithic in its representation of only a couple groups. You don't need to split every possible hair and have every possible group and subgroup, just a decent sampling.

 

[gyngyn]

I don't think a medical school can call themselves "diverse" if they completely ignore representation for 3.4 million people.

As the Pinoy population is largely concentrated in CA (and to some extent in HI) your efforts would be better spent on influencing these states. I can assure you again that we re-evaluate this in CA at frequent intervals. Perhaps someone in HI could address your concerns as well.

 

[coolio24567]

You should come get a job at my old hospital. We had a ton of Filipino physicians. And I'm in the NE, not even Cali.

I also love how you are like, "these 51 schools didn't take any Filipinos" while ignoring that UC Irvine had nearly 6% of their class composed of Filipinos. People tend to apply to schools that are either where they're from. There's more Filipinos in Cali than elsewhere, so it's likely the strong applicants are concentrated there, hence why they are probably overrepresented in many CA schools but underrepresented in many places (such as the midwest). Diversity doesn't mean having every single group represented, just that your school isn't monolithic in its representation of only a couple groups. You don't need to split every possible hair and have every possible group and subgroup, just a decent sampling.

So medical schools just need to fake diversity instead of ACTUALLY being diverse? I don't think representing 3.4 million people is "splitting hairs". That's more like ripping scalps.

"UC Irvine had nearly 6% of their class composed of Filipinos"
Oh so one medical school having a slightly increased Filipino population makes up for 51 other schools, right?
29/1177 or 2.46% of California medical students were Filipino in the state that admittedly tries to adjust for Filipino URM representation, and where Filipinos are 3.845% of the total population. This disparity is probably much worse in states that don't try to make adjustments.

 

[coolio24567]

As the Pinoy population is largely concentrated in CA (and to some extent in HI) your efforts would be better spent on influencing these states. I can assure you again that we re-evaluate this in CA at frequent intervals. Perhaps someone in HI could address your concerns as well.

Hawaii had 5/66 Filipino medical students, or 7.575%, when Filipinos make up 24.36% of Hawaii's population.

 

[Mad Jack]

So medical schools just need to fake diversity instead of ACTUALLY being diverse? I don't think representing 3.4 million people is "splitting hairs". That's more like ripping scalps.

"UC Irvine had nearly 6% of their class composed of Filipinos"
Oh so one medical school having a slightly increased Filipino population makes up for 51 schools, right?
29/1177 or 2.46% of California medical students were Filipino in the state that admittedly tries to adjust for Filipino URM representation, and where Filipinos are 3.845% of the total population. This disparity is probably much worse in states that don't try to make adjustments.

You're way too obsessed with the numbers and splitting hairs dude. URMs are severely underrepresented. African Americans, Native Americans, and Hispanics make up 25% of the US population but less than 6% of the physician workforce. That is a SEVERE disparity. You're butthurt because Filipinos are overrepresented in practice, but underrepresented in admissions by a tad. It's laughable at best and painful to read at worst.

 

[coolio24567]

You're way too obsessed with the numbers and splitting hairs dude. URMs are severely underrepresented. African Americans, Native Americans, and Hispanics make up 25% of the US population but less than 6% of the physician workforce. That is a SEVERE disparity. You're butthurt because Filipinos are overrepresented in practice, but underrepresented in admissions by a tad. It's laughable at best and painful to read at worst.

"Filipinos are overrepresented in practice"
This varies regionally.

"underrepresented in admissions by a tad"
This varies regionally as well. Filipino medical students in Hawaii make up less than a third of their proportion of the Hawaiian population.
All I'm asking medical schools to do is look into their regional representation of Filipino physicians to determine if they are regionally underrepresented. The definition of URM was changed in 2004 from "Blacks, Natives, Mexicans" to "Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population". Maybe not all medical schools have adjusted for this yet in such a short timeframe. Some have, as I showed before, and as the CA dude said. Filipinos cannot be assumed to be ubiquitously adequately represented like Indians, whose % of physicians is nearly 10x their % in the general population. I've met plenty of Indian medical students and doctors, but none of each who were Filipino. I live in a state with a high # of Filipinos. If I wanted a Filipino doctor, I'd probably have to do an extensive search within a 100 mile-radius instead of knowing that one was readily available at the nearest hospital. A large cluster of Filipino doctors in California cannot help me if they're 3000 miles away from me. This is why regional underrepresentation is important.

 

[Mad Jack]

"Filipinos are overrepresented in practice"
This varies regionally.

"underrepresented in admissions by a tad"
This varies regionally as well. Filipino medical students in Hawaii make up less than a third of their proportion of the Hawaiian population.
All I'm asking medical schools to do is look into their regional representation of Filipino physicians to determine if they are regionally underrepresented. The definition of URM was changed in 2004 from "Blacks, Natives, Mexicans" to "Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population". Maybe not all medical schools have adjusted for this yet in such a short timeframe. Some have, as I showed before, and as the CA dude said. Filipinos cannot be assumed to be ubiquitously adequately represented like Indians, whose % of physicians is nearly 10x their % in the general population. I've met plenty of Indian medical students and doctors, but none of each who were Filipino. I live in a state with a high # of Filipinos. If I wanted a Filipino doctor, I'd probably have to do an extensive search within a 100 mile-radius instead of knowing that one was readily available at the nearest hospital. A large cluster of Filipino doctors in California cannot help me if they're 3000 miles away from me. This is why regional underrepresentation is important.

General population=/=regional population

 

[coolio24567]

General population=/=regional population

That can mean general population within a certain region. Now you're just being an ass trying to argue semantics. How the hell is a doctor supposed to treat me when he's several thousand miles away? Regional underrepresentation is important, hence why some medical schools have considered Filipino regional underrepresentation. Thanks for letting everyone reading this know that you're an ***hole though. It discredits what you say.

 

[coolio24567]

General population=/=regional population

https://www.aamc.org/download/54278/data/urm.pdf

Status of the "Underrepresented in Medicine" Definition.
The revised AAMC definition accomplished three important objectives:

1. A shift in focus from a fixed aggregation of four racial and ethnic groups to a continually
evolving underlying reality. The new definition accommodates including and removing
underrepresented groups on the basis of changing demographics of society and the profession

2. A shift in focus from a national perspective to regional or local perspective on
underrepresentation

You are wrong, GG kid.

 

[coolio24567]

General population=/=regional population

The only argument now against advocating medical schools to look into their regional demographics to see if Filipinos are URM regionally is that you don't want potentially underrepresented minorities to be adequately represented. Indians and Chinese can advocate for the same thing too, but I'll give you a hundred bucks for any region that has either of those underrepresented.

 

[Mad Jack]

The only argument now against advocating medical schools to look into their regional demographics to see if Filipinos are URM regionally is that you don't want potentially underrepresented minorities to be adequately represented. Indians and Chinese can advocate for the same thing too, but I'll give you a hundred bucks for any region that has either of those underrepresented.

It's not about what I want. I just don't care lol. I think the URM system is ridiculous unless a group is horribly underrepresented, as is the case for Hispanics and AAs.

 

[coolio24567]

It's not about what I want. I just don't care lol. I think the URM system is ridiculous unless a group is horribly underrepresented, as is the case for Hispanics and AAs.

And whose to say Filipinos aren't horribly underrepresented in some areas too?
Like I said, I've never met a Filipino doctor or medical student and I live in a state with a high # of Filipinos.
I'm asking med schools to look into their regional Filipino physician and general populations and to help fix any disparities. Do you have a problem with that?

 

[Mad Jack]

And whose to say Filipinos aren't horribly underrepresented in some areas too?
Like I said, I've never met a Filipino doctor or medical student and I live in a state with a high # of Filipinos.
I'm asking med schools to look into their regional Filipino physician and general populations and to help fix any disparities. Do you have a problem with that?

I don't care. If you're ORM nationally but URM regionally i think national should take precedence, as it does in basically every allo school. I'd get into the mathematical reasons as to why if I weren't on a smartphone right now.

 

[coolio24567]

I don't care. If you're ORM nationally but URM regionally i think national should take precedence, as it does in basically every allo school. I'd get into the mathematical reasons as to why if I weren't on a smartphone right now.

So just let all of the local URM populations have no doctors to go to because they are ORM nationally? That makes a lot of sense...

And that is not what the AAMC definition of URM is, since we're getting into semantics. Regional/local URM takes precedence over national according to the AAMC.

"2. A shift in focus from a national perspective to regional or local perspective on
underrepresentation"

It doesn't matter what you think. If Filipinos are URM regionally, then they deserve URM status at regional schools, according to the AAMC.

"as it does in basically every allo school"
That's exactly the problem I'm trying to address. Some schools are still using the old national URM precedence system when the AAMC clearly defined local URM as taking precedence.

 

[s5260205]

I would like to think URM status is only granted to minority groups that are historically, either socially or economically, disadvantaged, as in the case of African and Native Americans. As getting into medical schools requires financial resources or connections that these groups might not have, URM system might balance out their disadvantages. However, as we move toward greater equality, there is little sense in continuing the URM system, though it was effective a few decades ago when systematic discriminations against these groups were prevalent. I believe we should give considerations based on socioeconomic status and not ethnicity, so that students from a low income family could still be at an equal footing with those from more affluent families.

 

[coolio24567]

I would like to think URM status is only granted to minority groups that are historically, either socially or economically, disadvantaged, as in the case of African and Native Americans. As getting into medical schools requires financial resources or connections that these groups might not have, URM system might balance out their disadvantages. However, as we move toward greater equality, there is little sense in continuing the URM system, though it was effective a few decades ago when systematic discriminations against these groups were prevalent. I believe we should give considerations based on socioeconomic status and not ethnicity, so that students from a low income family could still be at an equal footing with those from more affluent families.

URM is for representation in the physician workforce, not to overcome socioeconomic barriers. Sure, many URMs are historically poor, but there's a separate checkbox for "disadvantaged". They can check that too if they're poor.

"'Underrepresented in medicine' means those racial and ethnic populations that are
underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population." -AAMC definition of URM

 

[coolio24567]

Well I think my argument is over. I've given irrefutable proof that URM refers to local underrepresentation. I have advocated for medical schools to look into their local Filipino demographics to see if filipinos are locally URM in medicine. There's nothing left for me to do.

 

[Mad Jack]

So just let all of the local URM populations have no doctors to go to because they are ORM nationally? That makes a lot of sense...

And that is not what the AAMC definition of URM is, since we're getting into semantics. Regional/local URM takes precedence over national according to the AAMC.

"2. A shift in focus from a national perspective to regional or local perspective on
underrepresentation"

It doesn't matter what you think. If Filipinos are URM regionally, then they deserve URM status at regional schools, according to the AAMC.

"as it does in basically every allo school"
That's exactly the problem I'm trying to address. Some schools are still using the old national URM precedence system when the AAMC clearly defined local URM as taking precedence.

Individual schools determine their individual URM policies. The vast majority have determined that you aren't a URM. Deal with it.

And if you don't look at things nationally but only on a regional basis, a lot of problems arise. What about areas that are nearly 100% white? Should they not be taking Asians because then their white population is underrepresented at their medical schools? Because if you look at a population/med school entering class ratio, whites are underrepresented at most schools compared to the local area. I guess we should stop worrying about Filipinos and worry about all the poor white people that are being underrepresented. Or what about when groups that are heavily ORM everywhere else in the country, say, Indians or whatever, should an individual school that is in the only area they aren't ORM in boost their enrollment? Because if they are ORM everywhere and equally represented in the only places that they aren't ORM, that basically means you have entrenched them as an ORM forever. It doesn't matter though, you don't make the policy, and, judging by how desperately you need the URM label, you probably aren't getting into medical school, so you will probably never have much a say in the matter politically.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well I think my argument is over. I've given irrefutable proof that URM refers to local underrepresentation. I have advocated for medical schools to look into their local Filipino demographics to see if filipinos are locally URM in medicine. There's nothing left for me to do.

Except you've really done nothing. No adcom anywhere cares about a thing you've said on these boards. You've just been making circular arguments for nearly a day that no one really supports.

 

[coolio24567]

Except you've really done nothing. No adcom anywhere cares about a thing you've said on these boards. You've just been making circular arguments for nearly a day that no one really supports.

There was at least one person who responded who worked with an MD admissions committee. Potentially many more who read this. And who says I'm not in med school already/sitting on an acceptance. That is an ad hominem attack. The AAMC defines URM. That document clearly defines it. I'm advocating for medical schools to follow it if they aren't already. If a region is primarily white, then medical schools should do their best to represent them. But no region is 100% of a single race, so there's going to be necessary regional diversity anyways. Wow you get mad when you get wrecked. I hope you're not going to be a doctor with that temper.

Is there something wrong with showing medical schools the URM policy as defined by the AAMC, and expressing my concern for a potential problem? You are trying to stop potential legitimate URM groups from gaining URM status. You are a racist.

 

[texan2414]

At least he properly said "wrecked" and not rekt.

 

[coolio24567]

At least he properly said "wrecked" and not rekt.

Either describes what I did to him. I completely destroyed his argument with the AAMC definition of URM. All I'm doing is asking medical schools to consider their local Filipino demographics. Two scenarios can come out of them doing this check: A legitimate URM gains URM status locally, or a non-URM group stays non-URM. I don't see why he's so against this. The only reason he would be is that he's racist.

 

[texan2414]

Either describes what I did to him. I completely destroyed his argument with the AAMC definition of URM. All I'm doing is asking medical schools to consider their local Filipino demographics. Two scenarios can come out of them doing this check: A legitimate URM gains URM status locally, or a non-URM group stays non-URM. I don't see why he's so against this. The only reason he would be is that he's racist.

Ya but I said more so out of humor than anything else lol.

 

[coolio24567]

Ya but I said more so out of humor than anything else lol.

So you have nothing against me advocating for medical schools to check if Filipinos are locally URM, right? There's really no argument that can be made against that other than racism.

 

[texan2414]

So you have nothing against me advocating for medical schools to check if Filipinos are locally URM, right? There's really no argument that can be made against that other than racism.

I pretty much gave you my advice many posts ago.....Your posts here are doing absolutely NOTHING. Go contact those 51 individual medical schools, contact the Dean of Admissions and speak directly to him (email/meeting,etc.) Contact the Student Affairs at these 51 medical schools and voice your concerns there. If you think posting here will do anything to advance your argument .... well you might as well use your time more constructively.

 

[texan2414]

Also I can't really tell if the other guy is racist. So not sure why you were asking me to judge his character..

 

[coolio24567]

This thread is absolutely ridiculous.

First we have absurd numbers being pulled out of thin air (like the "fact" that Filipinos make up 24% of Hawaii's population -- the actual number is 15%).

Second, the point of the URM system is not to get medical school demographics to exactly match the demographics of the US. If it were, med schools would have to dramtically cut down on the number of Indians and Chinese that they accept. No, the purpose of accepting URMs is to meet specific medical needs in the community.

African Americans, Native Americans, and Latinos have been maligned by the US medical establishment for decades. They were at timed given sub par care. They were at times denied care entirely. They were at times experimented on without their knowledge and to the detriment of their health. As a result, many African Americans, Native Americans, and Latinos feel uncomfortable with physicians of other races.

Now let's look at other URM races, the Uyghurs of China and the Bodos of India. Both arrived in the US only recently, after the civil rights movement. There was no Tuskegee syphilis study involving Uyghurs and no Puerto Rico Pill trials involving Bodos. People of these races do not have a reason to fear American physicians.

So how much does selecting specifically for Uyghur and Bodo physicians add to patient care? Not much, and that's why virtually every medical school treats them as ORM. Selecting for African American physicians, on the other hand, is very important.

I'm not going to pass judgment on whether Filipinos are better served by physicians of their own race in the same way that African Americans are because I don't know enough to have an informed opinion. But the idea that a race is URM just because there are proportionally fewer physicians of that race is completely missing the point.

First of all, that percent 14.1% of Hawaiians being Filipino is for the 170,635 Filipinos who identify as Filipino only. There are 342,095 Filipinos with any combination of races. A lot of Hawaiians are mixed. Maybe you should've checked a reputable source like the U.S. Census instead of blindly believing the first number google spat out at you.
Second of all, I was arguing the importance of regional underrepresentation over national representation for several posts. (see below) Please read everything before you start making a pointless rant.

Lastly, Filipinos have a completely distinct culture and look from other Asian nations and are the SECOND LARGEST Asian minority in the United States. There's 3.4 million Filipino-Americans. They're not some tiny minority. Many people don't realize this. Your ignorance is showing and you are obviously underestimating the Filipino presence in the population if you are comparing a group of 3.4 million people to tiny minorities like Uyghurs and Bodos. We've been in this country for at least 100 years, we didn't just get here. And if you're saying that URM designation is for reparations for American wrongdoings, you should get educated on the History of the Philippines.

During the Philippine American War in 1899 (Yes America had a war with the Philippines, if you didn't know), "At least 200,000 Filipino civilians lost their lives as an indirect result of the war mostly as a result of the cholera epidemic at the war's end that took between 150,000 and 200,000 lives. Atrocities were committed by both sides." The Philippines was under American rule for nearly 50 years. Our people have been passed around like ragdolls between Spain and the United States for centuries. Most people don't know this though because its not emphasized in U.S. history curriculum like the civil rights movement and the trail of tears.

The words of President McKinley after the U.S. acquired the Philippines from Spain, along with Puerto Rico and Guam during the Treaty of Paris: "they were unfit for self-government, ... there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them".
Sounds great, doesn't it?

"Filipinos are overrepresented in practice"
This varies regionally.

"underrepresented in admissions by a tad"
This varies regionally as well. Filipino medical students in Hawaii make up less than a third of their proportion of the Hawaiian population.
All I'm asking medical schools to do is look into their regional representation of Filipino physicians to determine if they are regionally underrepresented. The definition of URM was changed in 2004 from "Blacks, Natives, Mexicans" to "Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population". Maybe not all medical schools have adjusted for this yet in such a short timeframe. Some have, as I showed before, and as the CA dude said. Filipinos cannot be assumed to be ubiquitously adequately represented like Indians, whose % of physicians is nearly 10x their % in the general population. I've met plenty of Indian medical students and doctors, but none of each who were Filipino. I live in a state with a high # of Filipinos. If I wanted a Filipino doctor, I'd probably have to do an extensive search within a 100 mile-radius instead of knowing that one was readily available at the nearest hospital. A large cluster of Filipino doctors in California cannot help me if they're 3000 miles away from me. This is why regional underrepresentation is important.

That can mean general population within a certain region. Now you're just being an ass trying to argue semantics. How the hell is a doctor supposed to treat me when he's several thousand miles away? Regional underrepresentation is important, hence why some medical schools have considered Filipino regional underrepresentation. Thanks for letting everyone reading this know that you're an ***hole though. It discredits what you say.

https://www.aamc.org/download/54278/data/urm.pdf

Status of the "Underrepresented in Medicine" Definition.
The revised AAMC definition accomplished three important objectives:

1. A shift in focus from a fixed aggregation of four racial and ethnic groups to a continually
evolving underlying reality. The new definition accommodates including and removing
underrepresented groups on the basis of changing demographics of society and the profession

2. A shift in focus from a national perspective to regional or local perspective on
underrepresentation

You are wrong, GG kid.

And whose to say Filipinos aren't horribly underrepresented in some areas too?
Like I said, I've never met a Filipino doctor or medical student and I live in a state with a high # of Filipinos.
I'm asking med schools to look into their regional Filipino physician and general populations and to help fix any disparities. Do you have a problem with that?

So just let all of the local URM populations have no doctors to go to because they are ORM nationally? That makes a lot of sense...

And that is not what the AAMC definition of URM is, since we're getting into semantics. Regional/local URM takes precedence over national according to the AAMC.

"2. A shift in focus from a national perspective to regional or local perspective on
underrepresentation"

It doesn't matter what you think. If Filipinos are URM regionally, then they deserve URM status at regional schools, according to the AAMC.

"as it does in basically every allo school"
That's exactly the problem I'm trying to address. Some schools are still using the old national URM precedence system when the AAMC clearly defined local URM as taking precedence.

 

[coolio24567]

I'm not. I'm well aware of the Philippine rebellion, and it way it was handled was terribly oppressive on the part of the US, but that is not the point. African Americans and Latinos aren't deserving of URM status because they were oppressed. They need URM status because they were mistreated by the US medical establishment for many years, and even today that has lingering effects on their medical care.

URM status is not about fairness. It is about creating a physician workforce that can best serve the US population.

And I'm advocating for medical schools to check for regional underrepresentation of Filipinos. A very small number of Filipinos apply to US medical schools relative to their population. https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/Diversity in Medical Education_Facts and Figures 2012.pdf
Figure 7 page 22
The definition of URM was changed recently to mean a small amount of doctors relative to the general population of a region.
Filipinos have been classically grouped with "Asian" so many schools may have not made the distinction for them yet. Some have, as I posted earlier and do consider filipinos URM in their region.

All I'm asking is that medical schools check to see if Filipinos ARE ACTUALLY URM in their area (low amount of Filipino doctors relative to population). The only reason to be against this is that you're racist.

I feel like I'm having to restate the same stuff over and over. Please read EVERYTHING I've posted before you start arguing with me, you're making me waste my time by repeating myself.

 

[Mad Jack]

There was at least one person who responded who worked with an MD admissions committee. Potentially many more who read this. And who says I'm not in med school already/sitting on an acceptance. That is an ad hominem attack. The AAMC defines URM. That document clearly defines it. I'm advocating for medical schools to follow it if they aren't already. If a region is primarily white, then medical schools should do their best to represent them. But no region is 100% of a single race, so there's going to be necessary regional diversity anyways. Wow you get mad when you get wrecked. I hope you're not going to be a doctor with that temper.

Is there something wrong with showing medical schools the URM policy as defined by the AAMC, and expressing my concern for a potential problem? You are trying to stop potential legitimate URM groups from gaining URM status. You are a racist.

Yep, plainly staying that no one cares about your argument because it is both wrong and misplaced clearly means I'm angry because I was "wrecked" lol. I'm just going to step out of this conversation and drop the 'ol ignore on you, because debating someone like yourself is both pointless and likely to get me in some deal of trouble with the mods if I were to say how I really feel.

If you want to enact some kind of change in policy, SDN isn't the place for it. Most medical schools have a national, not regional focus, so your pleas to them would fall on deaf ears, likely to shrugs and possibly eye rolls. Perhaps focus on your State medical schools and see if they could change the designation locally, as they are more state focused in a place with a large Filipino population.

As to whether I am racist, that's pretty damn laughable. The last girl I seriously dated (for 3 years) was 2nd gen American Filipino and trying to get into med school, and had a wealthy Filipino pediatrician uncle in NYC to advise her. She tried working the URM angle as well, largely due to a poor application, and it didn't work out for her at all, because, as I've said before, it's wrong. She also thought about the Hispanic angle, but her barely passable Spanish from 2 semesters in college and no ties to the Spanish community weren't cutting it. She never did get into medical school, despite looking into every possible avenue by which to boost her app. I'm just trying to save you some time because I already saw this fight play out, and know how it ends.

 

[coolio24567]

Yep, plainly staying that no one cares about your argument because it is both wrong and misplaced clearly means I'm angry because I was "wrecked" lol. I'm just going to step out of this conversation and drop the 'ol ignore on you, because debating someone like yourself is both pointless and likely to get me in some deal of trouble with the mods if I were to say how I really feel.

If you want to enact some kind of change in policy, SDN isn't the place for it. Most medical schools have a national, not regional focus, so your pleas to them would fall on deaf ears, likely to shrugs and possibly eye rolls. Perhaps focus on your State medical schools and see if they could change the designation locally, as they are more state focused in a place with a large Filipino population.

As to whether I am racist, that's pretty damn laughable. The last girl I seriously dated (for 3 years) was 2nd gen American Filipino and trying to get into med school, and had a wealthy Filipino pediatrician uncle in NYC to advise her. She tried working the URM angle as well, largely due to a poor application, and it didn't work out for her at all, because, as I've said before, it's wrong. She also thought about the Hispanic angle, but her barely passable Spanish from 2 semesters in college and no ties to the Spanish community weren't cutting it. She never did get into medical school, despite looking into every possible avenue by which to boost her app. I'm just trying to save you some time because I already saw this fight play out, and know how it ends.

That's ONE personal situation that you're judging me based off of. That screams of bias. I'm not advocating for my own application. The fact that many schools still have a national URM definition, rather than a regional one is exactly the thing I'm trying to advocate change for. The AAMC URM document I showed you clearly states that regional URM status is more important. A large cluster of Filipino doctors can't treat me if they're thousands of miles away. Ignore me, I don't care if you choose to remain ignorant.

 

[coolio24567]

Okay, let's go with that: Any race that is less represented in the medical school population than it is in the general population is URM. In that case, the only way to get medical school demographics to match US demographics as a whole is to drastically cut down on the number of Indian and Chinese medical students. Med schools would have to reject 5 out of every 6 Chinese applicants and 7 out of every 8 Indian students that they currently accept. Clearly, this is not the AAMC's goal, so you are misinterpreting their definition of URM.


I'm not saying Filipinos shouldn't be URM. I'm saying that being under-represented in medical school does not necessarily make a race URM. 74% of the US population is white, but only 70% of medical students are. Does this mean that white people are URM?


I have, but thanks for assuming that I didn't.

Okay, let's go with that: Any race that is less represented in the medical school population than it is in the general population is URM. In that case, the only way to get medical school demographics to match US demographics as a whole is to drastically cut down on the number of Indian and Chinese medical students. Med schools would have to reject 5 out of every 6 Chinese applicants and 7 out of every 8 Indian students that they currently accept. Clearly, this is not the AAMC's goal, so you are misinterpreting their definition of URM.


I'm not saying Filipinos shouldn't be URM. I'm saying that being under-represented in medical school does not necessarily make a race URM. 74% of the US population is white, but only 70% of medical students are. Does this mean that white people are URM?


I have, but thanks for assuming that I didn't.

I was talking about the regional general populations surrounding the medical school, not the medical school population itself, that's a separate issue of diversity. Most areas have plenty of white doctors. This can't be assumed for Filipinos.

If you read the AAMC document on URM it states a lower amount of doctors relative to the general population, with an emphasis on regional underrepresentation. Regional medical schools should take action to improve these disparities. This doesn't mean completely matching the med school ethnicity profile to the regional ethnicity profile.

If you read and understood what I posted, you'd see that I was advocating for regional URM status.


Filipinos are Filipinos if they are partial or full.

Do you say 3/4 and 1/2 black people aren't black? If not that's a double standard that you just rationalized to not be wrong.

In terms of class diversity, I don't see how medical schools can call themselves diverse if they exclude one of the largest minority groups in the US, larger than Indians and almost as large as Chinese.

 

[coolio24567]

I did read and understand this, but thanks for once again questioning my competence. What you are failing to understand is that if every school matches its student racial demographics to the demographics of it's local region, then that will also have the effect of making the aggregate demographics of medical schools from across the country match the national demographics. So a school in California might have to reject 2/3 Chinese applicants to match its local demographics and a school in Iowa might have to reject 15/16 Chinese applicants to match its local demographics, but across the nation it will average to rejecting 5/6 applicants. That is clearly not the goal of the AAMC or any medical school, so you are misinterpreting the URM policy. My point still stands.


I would consider 3/4 and 1/2 black people to be black, just as I would consider 3/4 and 1/2 Filipinos to be Filipinos, but if someone asked me to find the number of people of a certain race living in the US, my first instinct wouldn't be to start combing through mixed race demographics.

Then your first instinct would be wrong. Filipinos in themselves are a very mixed people. They're a heterogenous population with ancestries from many different countries.Precluding any mixed people from their population count is vastly underestimating their numbers, much more so than homogenous populations like African Americans.

Did you even read what I said? I said "
Regional medical schools should take action to improve these disparities. This doesn't mean completely matching the med school ethnicity profile to the regional ethnicity profile."
You obviously didn't understand that. If there's an URM in that region, then they should accept a few more of them. Not completely match the med school demographics with the regional demographics.

 

[Goro]

OP, you're not URM. End of story.

Yeah I'm sure you tell that to all the Blacks, Mexicans, and Natives out there with lower stats.

It's not pseudo-URM, it's URM. Most med schools just haven't looked at Filipinos separately because they're "Asian", and there's a ton of Asians in medicine.

Maybe because they either didn't apply, or their stats were not competitive? Diversity isn't always skin color, it's the road traveled.

Then why did 51 US MD schools accept 0 Filipinos last year? I went through the MSAR and made a spreadsheet with every school and how many Filipinos they accepted. CA schools were generally better, but there's a lot of states with 0 or 1 Filipino admits in the whole state. Where's the "diversity" in medical schools if so many schools apparently don't want Filipinos, who are the second largest Asian American minority?

 

[coolio24567]

OP, you're not URM. End of story.

Actually Filipinos ARE URM at some schools that have done regional analyses of Filipino underrepresentation. Utah and UC Irvine
http://medicine.utah.edu/outreach/forms/MCATapp.pdf
http://www.meded.uci.edu/admissions/first_year_profile.asp

I'm advocating for all medical schools to make the same regional URM analyses to determine if Filipinos are regionally URM.
You people need to read everything before making ignorant claims.

 

[deleted651092]

I don't know where this need to be considered as a separate entity comes from, Filipinos ARE Asian and Asians are not URM.

my mother is half-Filipino, half-Spanish but there's no way I'm going to insist that med schools classify me as URM. work on your stats and just deal with it.

 

[coolio24567]

I don't know where this need to be considered as a separate entity comes from, Filipinos ARE Asian and Asians are not URM.

my mother is half-Filipino, half-Spanish but there's no way I'm going to insist that med schools classify me as URM. work on your stats and just deal with it.

Once again someone assumes I'm doing this for personal gain. ASSUMES.

Filipinos are vastly different from other Asian groups. They have a distinct look, culture and language. The revised definition of URM seen on
https://www.aamc.org/download/54278/data/urm.pdf
shows that it was meant to steer away from the classic 4 groups of "Asian, black, white, Hispanic"

Once again someone posted an ignorant statement before reading everything.

 

[coolio24567]

OP, you're not URM. End of story.



Maybe because they either didn't apply, or their stats were not competitive? Diversity isn't always skin color, it's the road traveled.

Then why did 51 US MD schools accept 0 Filipinos last year? I went through the MSAR and made a spreadsheet with every school and how many Filipinos they accepted. CA schools were generally better, but there's a lot of states with 0 or 1 Filipino admits in the whole state. Where's the "diversity" in medical schools if so many schools apparently don't want Filipinos, who are the second largest Asian American minority?

That's a whole separate issue of class diversity unrelated to the URM issue. It is of my opinion that a class can't be considered diverse if they don't accept a representative from a major population group within their area. Many of those schools are in states with a high number of Filipinos. They definitely had applicants from the whole spectrum of stats and from many different backgrounds.

 

[Lucca]

Diversity and representation in the physician workforce is one of the many goals of a medical school. I still don't see how Filipinos are underrepresented in any region of the country? 4% filipino in a region does not necessitate 4% filipino in the medical school class. 25% AA does necessitate the 5-9% of seats that go to AAs at most medical schools. Medical schools also have the duty of reviewing all applications fairly. This includes factoring in economic status, competency benchmarks. In the case of URM more competitive marks are often (but not always) sacrificed for meeting competency benchmarks and having a high likelihood of serving one of the medical school's other goals.

Is there any evidence that filipinos are more likely to go to filipino physicians? If there is, it wasn't included in the AAMC diversity report.

 

[deleted651092]

Once again someone assumes I'm doing this for personal gain. ASSUMES.

Filipinos are vastly different from other Asian groups. They have a distinct look, culture and language. The revised definition of URM seen on
https://www.aamc.org/download/54278/data/urm.pdf
shows that it was meant to steer away from the classic 4 groups of "Asian, black, white, Hispanic"

Once again someone posted an ignorant statement before reading everything.

You'll be better off knocking on every single med school building in the country to preach this issue than trying to convince people on SDN that what you're saying makes sense. You're so hung up on technicalities that you fail to realize that med schools don't care enough to listen to every single special snowflake who claims such and such just to have an edge over other premeds. Asia is a big a** continent and obviously there's a ton of distinct looks and cultures. Indians and East Asians belong in the same category despite being vastly different, Filipinos are not the exception.

 

[coolio24567]

Diversity and representation in the physician workforce is one of the many goals of a medical school. I still don't see how Filipinos are underrepresented in any region of the country? 4% filipino in a region does not necessitate 4% filipino in the medical school class. 25% AA does necessitate the 5-9% of seats that go to AAs at most medical schools. Medical schools also have the duty of reviewing all applications fairly. This includes factoring in economic status, competency benchmarks. In the case of URM more competitive marks are often (but not always) sacrificed for meeting competency benchmarks and having a high likelihood of serving one of the medical school's other goals.

Is there any evidence that filipinos are more likely to go to filipino physicians? If there is, it wasn't included in the AAMC diversity report.

You really need evidence to show that Filipinos are more likely to seek out Filipino doctors? They have their own language, that should be evidence enough. Filipinos who only speak Tagalog can only be treated by doctors who speak it.