Veterinary or Medical Route

[DocFroggie]

I cannot decide between Veterinary School or Medical School. When I graduate (getting ready for third year of college) I will have a Fine Arts degree (which I'm almost done with and honestly have really lost interest in), and a BS in Biology. I have wanted to be a doctor since I was a little kid. I know many, many people say that, and it's true, but there has only ever been "be a doctor" for me. My kindergarten graduation picture is me beside a "what do you want to be when you grow up" poster I made of a doctor. Science for me is like when you're away from home for a long time and you can't return for a bit longer, but that rush you get when you finally crash into your own bed. I'm fascinated by how things work, and what can and does happen. People have asked me why not go the PhD route or nurse. I entertained other ideas and professions, but they just didn't feel right. I have experience shadowing and helping out in both fields. Blood, surgery, etc is the same for me in humans as it is "animals", I don't get grossed out or repulsed but instead pulled in. I want a challenging career where I can puzzle solve, and make a difference. I have an excellent GPA and am in several Honors Societies.

From the veterinary standpoint: I love animals. I grew up watching Irwin and Corwin. Jane Goodall was and is a huge inspiration for me. I want to help save species from extinction, and travel and be hands on with wild animals, not household pets like dogs or cats. Animals are pure love, they are innocent. They are our best friends and companions, parts of families.
Pros: Get to do some of everything(no specialization required), wide variety of ailments and patients, live in wherever area I practice in, option to own my own practice, disease research, be in nature around animals
Cons: Lower income and bigger debt, the hours, putting animals down if owner requests or not being able to do diagnostics/treatment because of funds, lots of bodies to memorize, patients can't say what's wrong(but that's also an appeal in a way)

From the Medical standpoint: I am fascinated by the body and how it works, and how things can stop working correctly and why. I am looking at going into Pathology/Oncology if I go this route. I want to make a difference. I've had Gray's Anatomy and the Merck Manual since I was a kid, and for a while I wanted to be House (haha). People are, well, people. They are our families and friends, and form our societies.
Pros: Large Salary, Help people, Be a specialist, only one body to remember, disease research, esteem, save a life, more consistent hours
Cons: Stuck in a single specialty (must choose between medicine/surgery and another specialization within one of those), paperwork, Must live near hospital, electronic aspect, patients lie, less hands-on schooling

I would like to have Parasitology in there as well, probably at a PhD level. I know no one can decide for me, but some insight or just, something, would be helpful. The time for important tests and school decisions is coming up and I just feel kind of at a standstill and like it's driving me a bit mad.

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[Caia]

You've already listed out the pros/cons so if you've gotten more shadowing hours in for each profession and that still hasn't helped you decide....

Go with medicine. You can always get involved with animals in other ways.

If you don't have many hours in both, get more.

This is what I have and will tell every person that has this dilemma.

 

[DVMDream]

If patients lying is a con for you, then add it to vet med too. No, I don't mean the cat is lying, I mean clients lie. They lie all the time. About what they feed their pets, how much they feed, if they gave meds, how long they gave the meds for, if their dog actually got into pot...

Also, I think this is something that needs to be said and it isn't to be discouraging, but simply realistic. I see a LOT of people come through these forums with an interest in wildlife and zoo medicine and the reality is that maybe 1 or 2 of them over the course of the next few years will actually break into that field. It is a very competitive field. The vast majority of those graduating from vet school will work with companion animals simply because that is where the jobs are and what pays the most. Not saying that will happen to you, but just keep in mind that a lot changes once you do get into vet school and many people start off with one idea in mind of what they will do and end up in a completely different area of vet med.

To be honest, if you can see yourself being a doctor, do that. The debt:income ratio is so much better and you might actually be able to retire one day.

 

[Gwenevre]

I always hear if you can be happy in human medicine, do it. It's rewarding in the "helping your patients" aspect, and in the monetary aspect. As Caia pointed out, you can always be involved in animals, through volunteering with wildlife shelters.

 

[DocFroggie]

Yes, I have also seen a lot of people wanting to go into the wild field. There are specific animals I'd love to save, but I'm realistic enough to see that teh chances of that actually happening are slim to none. Not to cast doubts or anything like that, but just to be realistic it's not the most fruitful field. IF I go that route my fallback is( well, fallback plan sounds so bad and isn't accurate but I have been writing a research paper all day and cannot think of the right word) large animal medicine. Specifically bovine. I know people everywhere lie, it's the sad truth, but at least with animals the manipulation is secondary. There's not much of a difference, but somehow it seems different.

 

[jmo1012]

From the veterinary standpoint: I love animals. I grew up watching Irwin and Corwin. Jane Goodall was and is a huge inspiration for me. I want to help save species from extinction, and travel and be hands on with wild animals, not household pets like dogs or cats. Animals are pure love, they are innocent. They are our best friends and companions, parts of families.

so none of this is really veterinary, except maybe the human-animal bond playing a driving role in people seeking care for their pets. i grew up loving those people too, but none of what they do is veterinary. i wouldnt expect to "save the world" with a veterinary degree (though if you had the right doors opened you might be able to get in on some cool stuff, just very unlikely). you need to seriously think about how you will achieve your goal of traveling and treating wild animals outside of vet school. its an extremely small field, and give what vet school loans are looking like these days, very difficult to swing financially. its an inner battle i'm having with myself as i'm about to become a big kid.

Cons: Lower income and bigger debt, the hours, putting animals down if owner requests or not being able to do diagnostics/treatment because of funds, lots of bodies to memorize, patients can't say what's wrong(but that's also an appeal in a way)

i smile at the "lots of bodies to memorize" statement, because as an outsider, it probably does seem intense! i remember feeling daunted by that too, but truthfully? not a big deal. its actually really fascinating how similar a lot of is. and although veterinary patients cant say whats wrong, they also cant lie and over-exaggerate.

From the Medical standpoint: I am fascinated by the body and how it works, and how things can stop working correctly and why. I am looking at going into Pathology/Oncology if I go this route. I want to make a difference. I've had Gray's Anatomy and the Merck Manual since I was a kid, and for a while I wanted to be House (haha). People are, well, people. They are our families and friends, and form our societies.

being totally serious here, do you like sick people? i had a pre-med advisor who was giving a talk on what med schools are looking for, and one of the things he asked us was whether or not we liked dealing with sick people. that was a moment for me. a "huh, no as a matter of fact not" kind of moment. i enjoy working with people, i have a degree in psychology because i think humans are fascinating. i, however, do NOT like sick people (they complain, they're infectious, they're infectious, they complain...)

Pros: Large Salary, Help people, Be a specialist, only one body to remember, disease research, esteem, save a life, more consistent hours
Cons: Stuck in a single specialty (must choose between medicine/surgery and another specialization within one of those), paperwork, Must live near hospital, electronic aspect, patients lie, less hands-on schooling

there is TONS of paperwork in any field. the amount of paperwork we do at university is ridiculous. i think you will find that pretty much across all professional fields. also, vet med is slowly but surely going electronic. i bet we will be a lot further along in 6 years when you'd be looking to graduate. electronic is awesome btw. it is a ridiculous pain that we are only partially integrated, and it is so much easier to prepare for cases when you can just log on and read all the discharges, see all the lab reports, etc. lots of kinks to work out, but moving to electronic medical records really will be a great thing.

i think ultimately you need to log a lot more time in all 3 of the fields you mentioned. this will help you to better flesh out your interests. remember to ask yourself "is this something i can see myself doing for the next 50 years?" a lot of things can seem very exciting initially but interests fade with time (even when you least expect it). if that means working for a few years after college before applying, do that. because the amount of work and debt these schools require is worth avoiding if you have any doubts.

 

[DVMDream]

I know people everywhere lie, it's the sad truth, but at least with animals the manipulation is secondary. There's not much of a difference, but somehow it seems different.

To me that is worse, at least if people lie to their doctor it is them who suffer. If they lie about their pets healthcare, it is the animal and possibly the owner who suffer.

 

[DocFroggie]

It's not really a matter of doing what they did/do, as to they opened my eyes to the world of animals. There's more to them than just pretty things in cages or behind glass that we can visit. The funds-travel aspect is really just an unrealistic childhood dream that sounds fantastic. Logically I know that the chances of it being like that are stacked way against me, and opportunities are extremely limited. The bovine medicine route appeals to me because of a large of of cows, lots of experience on farms, and the food industry.
When I was a Junior in HS I got a bunch of veterinary books, and I look through them routinely. I'm actually trying to memorize the different terms planes as they relate to dog/cat/horse right now, as I have some extra time (Ha, savoring it while I can, it's bound to disappear again soon!) I was going to get a degree in psychology, I fell in love with it in hs, and according to my teacher I caught on extraordinarily quick. I felt like it got kind of repetitive after a few courses, though. I'm afraid of that kind of thing happening with being trapped into a specific specialty if I go the medical route.

I've shadowed with euthanasia for several animals, and though it is sad I find I can deal with it easily. I've also been around and heard people presented with devastating news, and while again painful, I could move past it.
I don't really LIKE sick people, but I don't mind being around them for certain purposed. I mean, I wouldn't want to be trapped in an elevator in the mall with a crowd of people with strep, but I'm fine with treating illness.

To me that is worse, at least if people lie to their doctor it is them who suffer. If they lie about their pets healthcare, it is the animal and possibly the owner who suffer.

I agree, it is in many ways worse. The animal doesn't even know why it's suffering, let alone deserve it.

 

[jmo1012]

It's not really a matter of doing what they did/do, as to they opened my eyes to the world of animals. There's more to them than just pretty things in cages or behind glass that we can visit. The funds-travel aspect is really just an unrealistic childhood dream that sounds fantastic. Logically I know that the chances of it being like that are stacked way against me, and opportunities are extremely limited. The bovine medicine route appeals to me because of a large of of cows, lots of experience on farms, and the food industry.
When I was a Junior in HS I got a bunch of veterinary books, and I look through them routinely. I'm actually trying to memorize the different terms planes as they relate to dog/cat/horse right now, as I have some extra time (Ha, savoring it while I can, it's bound to disappear again soon!) I was going to get a degree in psychology, I fell in love with it in hs, and according to my teacher I caught on extraordinarily quick. I felt like it got kind of repetitive after a few courses, though. I'm afraid of that kind of thing happening with being trapped into a specific specialty if I go the medical route.

I've shadowed with euthanasia for several animals, and though it is sad I find I can deal with it easily. I've also been around and heard people presented with devastating news, and while again painful, I could move past it.
I don't really LIKE sick people, but I don't mind being around them for certain purposed. I mean, I wouldn't want to be trapped in an elevator in the mall with a crowd of people with strep, but I'm fine with treating illness.


I agree, it is in many ways worse. The animal doesn't even know why it's suffering, let alone deserve it.

but a hospital is just a giant elevator full of people with crazy multi-drug resistant strep? [i'm the princess on the farm pulling out hand sanitizer every 5 seconds because of all the bacteria and other zoonotic potentials floating around haha]

 

[DocFroggie]

but a hospital is just a giant elevator full of people with crazy multi-drug resistant strep? [i'm the princess on the farm pulling out hand sanitizer every 5 seconds because of all the bacteria and other zoonotic potentials floating around haha]

Haha! I was quite the germaphobe for a short while, a couple years ago. Hand sanitizer was an essential, haha. Aside from that brief period though, germs don't bother me. They actually are kind of fascinating. I still sometimes freak out if some stranger coughs near my face in a restaurant while I'm getting food or whatnot though, don't get me wrong. Medical stuff has always intrigued me. I was with a friend last year, and she fell on a bike. The pedal went through her leg, barely missing an artery. Muscle and fat were peeled back and exposed, and blood was everywhere. It didn't phase me and I ended up having to secure it so I could get help, and then help the PA clean and suture it in the packed ER. And another time I was in the woodworking and metal studio and someone split his hand on a saw. I was the only one who didn't get the urge to actually the only one who didn't lol) vomit, and helped him get to the attention he needed .

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I cannot decide between Veterinary School or Medical School. When I graduate (getting ready for third year of college) I will have a Fine Arts degree (which I'm almost done with and honestly have really lost interest in), and a BS in Biology. I have wanted to be a doctor since I was a little kid. I know many, many people say that, and it's true, but there has only ever been "be a doctor" for me. My kindergarten graduation picture is me beside a "what do you want to be when you grow up" poster I made of a doctor. Science for me is like when you're away from home for a long time and you can't return for a bit longer, but that rush you get when you finally crash into your own bed. I'm fascinated by how things work, and what can and does happen. People have asked me why not go the PhD route or nurse. I entertained other ideas and professions, but they just didn't feel right. I have experience shadowing and helping out in both fields. Blood, surgery, etc is the same for me in humans as it is "animals", I don't get grossed out or repulsed but instead pulled in. I want a challenging career where I can puzzle solve, and make a difference. I have an excellent GPA and am in several Honors Societies.

From the veterinary standpoint: I love animals. I grew up watching Irwin and Corwin. Jane Goodall was and is a huge inspiration for me. I want to help save species from extinction, and travel and be hands on with wild animals, not household pets like dogs or cats. Animals are pure love, they are innocent. They are our best friends and companions, parts of families.
Pros: Get to do some of everything(no specialization required), wide variety of ailments and patients, live in wherever area I practice in, option to own my own practice, disease research, be in nature around animals
Cons: Lower income and bigger debt, the hours, putting animals down if owner requests or not being able to do diagnostics/treatment because of funds, lots of bodies to memorize, patients can't say what's wrong(but that's also an appeal in a way)

From the Medical standpoint: I am fascinated by the body and how it works, and how things can stop working correctly and why. I am looking at going into Pathology/Oncology if I go this route. I want to make a difference. I've had Gray's Anatomy and the Merck Manual since I was a kid, and for a while I wanted to be House (haha). People are, well, people. They are our families and friends, and form our societies.
Pros: Large Salary, Help people, Be a specialist, only one body to remember, disease research, esteem, save a life, more consistent hours
Cons: Stuck in a single specialty (must choose between medicine/surgery and another specialization within one of those), paperwork, Must live near hospital, electronic aspect, patients lie, less hands-on schooling

I would like to have Parasitology in there as well, probably at a PhD level. I know no one can decide for me, but some insight or just, something, would be helpful. The time for important tests and school decisions is coming up and I just feel kind of at a standstill and like it's driving me a bit mad.

Do you mean "if an owner requests" as in putting a healthy animal down because the owner doesn't want it for whatever reason? If so, as a veterinarian, you have a responsibility not to do things like that. In my experience, it's not uncommon and certainly within your "rights" as a veterinarian to deny a euthanasia on grounds like that. If an owner requests you euthanize a sick patient, well yeah, that's different.

 

[dyachei]

Do you mean "if an owner requests" as in putting a healthy animal down because the owner doesn't want it for whatever reason? If so, as a veterinarian, you have a responsibility not to do things like that. In my experience, it's not uncommon and certainly within your "rights" as a veterinarian to deny a euthanasia on grounds like that. If an owner requests you euthanize a sick patient, well yeah, that's different.

yes, you have the right to say no to that...but what does that mean for the patient? While I'm all about denying convenience euthanasia, if that means the owner is going to take it out back and shoot it, possibly miss and cause major injury and pain? I'd rather euthanize it.

 

[orca2011]

yes, you have the right to say no to that...but what does that mean for the patient? While I'm all about denying convenience euthanasia, if that means the owner is going to take it out back and shoot it, possibly miss and cause major injury and pain? I'd rather euthanize it.

Agreed. It's a very complicated subject. I actually just had to tell people that this is accepted in the veterinary field (although it is a complicated and heavily debated topic) and that some vets do perform them for the reasons you mentioned. I felt like they were getting ready to get out the torches and pitchforks against some vet for euthanizing a puppy based on the report that has been passed down through several people. Maybe the vet did, maybe there's more to the story, but felt like I should state that it doesn't make the vet an evil person--especially when we likely don't have the full story.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

yes, you have the right to say no to that...but what does that mean for the patient? While I'm all about denying convenience euthanasia, if that means the owner is going to take it out back and shoot it, possibly miss and cause major injury and pain? I'd rather euthanize it.

Yeah, you make a totally valid point there. I suppose it depends on the client and how well you know the person/situation. I just think people have the misconception that veterinarians are euthanizing animals left and right for the owners' convenience.

 

[Doktor Timo]

I think you'll find that most people who go into vet med and succeed are very single-minded about it. When you know it's the only thing you'll be satisfied doing, it makes it a lot easier to push through all the crap you have to deal with in school and onwards. So if you're up in the air about it and can see yourself being just as happy in another profession, then it may not be a wise career choice for you.

 

[Chkntree4]

If you're torn, go with Med School. If you aren't 100% smitten with vet med, you'll find yourself very disheartened about 1 month in.

 

[missdarjeeling]

yes, you have the right to say no to that...but what does that mean for the patient? While I'm all about denying convenience euthanasia, if that means the owner is going to take it out back and shoot it, possibly miss and cause major injury and pain? I'd rather euthanize it.

It's also my understanding that sometimes you don't really have a choice. I don't know if this is considered unusual, but the hospital I used to work for had a policy that doctors weren't allowed to refuse to euthanize. They were given leeway in trying to convince clients, but they had to stick by the client's final decision.

As for the paperwork stuff, OP, based on what I've observed and what my friends who are medical residents have talked about, yes, there's a lot more paperwork in people medicine. But there's also plenty of paperwork and EMR in vet med, too, and the doctors and interns I worked with would often have to stay past the end of their shift to finish up SOAPs and miscellaneous paperwork. I don't really think paperwork is one of those things that's significant enough to push you in one direction or another. There are more important issues at play. If you haven't had much shadowing experience in either of the fields, you should seek that out and get multiple opinions from people in both fields on some of the pros/cons you've listed. What pushed me away from human medicine was ultimately my discomfort at being around sick people. I just couldn't get over it.

 

[dyachei]

It's also my understanding that sometimes you don't really have a choice. I don't know if this is considered unusual, but the hospital I used to work for had a policy that doctors weren't allowed to refuse to euthanize. They were given leeway in trying to convince clients, but they had to stick by the client's final decision.

Yeah, but you can choose not to work there. there's nothing in state or federal law that says you can't euthanize

 

[LetItSnow]

Do you mean "if an owner requests" as in putting a healthy animal down because the owner doesn't want it for whatever reason? If so, as a veterinarian, you have a responsibility not to do things like that.

 

[lailanni]

If you can be happy as a human doctor, be a human doctor. You'll enjoy things like living in a house you can pay off, having a car that doesn't suck, the ability to help pay for your kid's college and the real possibility of retiring comfortably. You can do these things with vet med, but it's realistically much more of a challenge. That debt to income ratio isn't bluffing.

If you're confused, spend a lot of hours in those fields. I'd even go as far as saying take a year off after graduation and really get some good experience. Better off knowing beforehand than going $100,000 or more into debt on something you don't actually like. Plus all those extra hours will help any application.

 

[missdarjeeling]

Yeah, but you can choose not to work there. there's nothing in state or federal law that says you can't euthanize

Right, I know there aren't any laws mandating that vets must or mustn't do convenience euths, but realistically, if someone only has one viable job offer at a place with a policy like the one I mentioned, they're going to have to deal with this issue head on and maybe do something they're not 100% comfortable with.

 

[Lupin21]

Mine seems stuck between evil and wrong.

 

[Lupin21]

Oh! It changes if I stop pointing it towards me.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

So it's wrong to say that veterinarians shouldn't be euthanizing healthy animals without extenuating circumstances, such as the situation dyachei described? Guess the veterinary ethics textbooks and professors I've met are wrong...

 

[k80rigs]

Before we get into a discussion about ethically moral euthanasias, I would like to get back to OP's question...

My take on it (having only been from the veterinary side mind you) is that everyone is not going to share your sentiment of " Animals are pure love, they are innocent. They are our best friends and companions, parts of families." Especially large animals. Especially bovine. They are not "part of families", they are an economic decision. If a cow is down for 1 day, they are no longer making money. Down for 2 days, producers are losing money on that animal. They will not pay thousands of dollars to treat it.
And I will be the first to say that I have met some animals that are not "pure love".....

 

[dyachei]

Right, I know there aren't any laws mandating that vets must or mustn't do convenience euths, but realistically, if someone only has one viable job offer at a place with a policy like the one I mentioned, they're going to have to deal with this issue head on and maybe do something they're not 100% comfortable with.

realistically, you can move. or work for a corporation because they don't force that.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

It's also my understanding that sometimes you don't really have a choice. I don't know if this is considered unusual, but the hospital I used to work for had a policy that doctors weren't allowed to refuse to euthanize. They were given leeway in trying to convince clients, but they had to stick by the client's final decision.

Wouldn't that hospital technically be asking the doctor to go against the oath in certain situations, though? I haven't taken any sort of ethics courses on the matter, but have read through a few veterinary ethics textbooks and chatted with some professors for interview prep. They all seem to hammer in the idea that the veterinarian has every 'right' to refuse to euthanize in situations where the animal can easily be saved (whether that be by rehoming, training, etc). I know reality can be different than a situation on paper, but "protecting animal welfare" to me means not euthanizing that cat that started spraying, for example (which is actually how I ended up with my cat!). Thoughts??

 

[DVMDream]

So it's wrong to say that veterinarians shouldn't be euthanizing healthy animals without extenuating circumstances, such as the situation dyachei described? Guess the veterinary ethics textbooks and professors I've met are wrong...

The issue is, if a person wants a healthy animal or even an animal with a "treatable" condition euthanized, they are going to find a way to do it. Whether it be by their own hands or dropping that animal at an animal shelter where you then just toss the problem onto the already overcrowded and overwhelmed shelter.

I'm not saying vets should be doing convenience euthanasia every time it is asked but you really have to weigh in what will happen if you decide you are never doing that. Also what conditions do you consider treatable? Do you euthanize the puppy with a fractured femur because the owner doesn't have money? Do you offer them to sign the puppy over for you to fix and find it a new home? Who pays for the surgery then and the care of the puppy until it gets a new home? Who fosters the puppy while it heals? That one puppy could cost > $1,000 before it gets to a new home who pays for that? Do you pass that off onto a shelter? Can they afford it? How many other animals will they have to euthanize to save that one puppy?

It isn't as simple as, young dog has treatable condition, owner can't pay, don't euthanize.

 

[LetItSnow]

So it's wrong to say that veterinarians shouldn't be euthanizing healthy animals without extenuating circumstances, such as the situation dyachei described? Guess the veterinary ethics textbooks and professors I've met are wrong...

It is wrong to say "If so, as a veterinarian, you have a responsibility not to do things like that." It's simply not that universally true.

I haven't taken any sort of ethics courses on the matter

.... then I would suggest that you at least recognize that it can be nowhere near as black and white as you appear to think it is until you've been exposed to more real cases where you're challenged to decide what the best thing is for the animal and client.

Under certain circumstances, I would certainly agree to euthanize a 'spraying cat' for an owner.

 

[dyachei]

me means not euthanizing that cat that started spraying,

I would euthanize a cat for spraying if all other avenues had been exhausted.

 

[NStarz]

I would euthanize a cat for spraying if all other avenues had been exhausted.

I would as well. And this is coming from a behavior person.

 

[DVMDream]

I would as well. And this is coming from a behavior person.

I would too.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

The issue is, if a person wants a healthy animal or even an animal with a "treatable" condition euthanized, they are going to find a way to do it. Whether it be by their own hands or dropping that animal at an animal shelter where you then just toss the problem onto the already overcrowded and overwhelmed shelter.

I'm not saying vets should be doing convenience euthanasia every time it is asked but you really have to weigh in what will happen if you decide you are never doing that. Also what conditions do you consider treatable? Do you euthanize the puppy with a fractured femur because the owner doesn't have money? Do you offer them to sign the puppy over for you to fix and find it a new home? Who pays for the surgery then and the care of the puppy until it gets a new home? Who fosters the puppy while it heals? That one puppy could cost > $1,000 before it gets to a new home who pays for that? Do you pass that off onto a shelter? Can they afford it? How many other animals will they have to euthanize to save that one puppy?

It isn't as simple as, young dog has treatable condition, owner can't pay, don't euthanize.

To me, financial reasons are not "convenience euthanasias." I can easily see how you can interpret them as such, it just depends on how you look at it. To me, it's one thing to want to fix a puppy, but not having the $1,000+ to do so. It's another to say, "I'm moving and I don't want to deal with moving the dog. I'd like to euthanize it." I'm referring to the latter situation when I say "convenience euthanasia." If you can't afford to treat your own pet, you won't likely find someone to adopt it with such an expensive pre-existing condition.

And while adding further burden to a shelter isn't ideal, it certainly gives that healthy animal an extra chance at life., even if it only had a few days or so to get adopted out.

I would euthanize a cat for spraying if all other avenues had been exhausted.

Right, that's what I'm trying to say. But if this cat is in your clinic, it obviously hasn't been dropped off at a shelter, which is another avenue. Why euthanize it when it potentially just needs a new home? My cat was brought in to be euthanized by its original owners. He started spraying, the owner tried everything. Finally, she wanted him put down. The vet I worked for offered him one more chance (to live in the clinic), and he hasn't sprayed since. Again, I know each cat is different and a veterinarian would likely know the extent to which this cat's behavior could be modified or not, but we were certain this cat was going to be spraying all over the clinic. Not a drop.

then I would suggest that you at least recognize that it can be nowhere near as black and white as you appear to think it is until you've been exposed to more real cases where you're challenged to decide what the best thing is for the animal and client.

Which is why I said that I know reality is different than what I'm reading in these textbooks.

 

[DVMDream]

Or how about some real scenarios I have seen:

Owner of 2 dogs: a healthy 5 year old border collie and a 10 year old dachshund. The owner has lost her home due to the bad economy and housing market, the apartment she found to move into that she can afford does not allow dogs. She is a really good owner, all animals up to date on vaccines has cared for all medical problems, but now life has happened, she has to find homes for the dogs. She finds one for the border collie but after a long time of searching she can't find one for the dachshund. The dachshund has some degenerative disc disease, but is healthy and doing well, able to walk, not in any pain. The dog also is not friendly with new people and can be nippy. Owner has exhausted everything but dumping the dog at the shelter, she decides euthanasia is better. She brings the dog to you. What do you do?

Second one:

4 year old Lhasa Apso with diabetes. The diabetes is well controlled with medication. Owner has recently lost his job, he can't afford the dog's insulin anymore. The dog is healthy, happy and doing well when he brings it to you for euthanasia because the owner would rather the dog not deteriorate due to uncontrolled diabetes. What do you do?

 

[LetItSnow]

Which is why I said that I know reality is different than what I'm reading in these textbooks.

Ok. Well, I guess that wasn't clear when you made a blanket black and white "you have a responsibility not to do this" kind of statement.

It's another to say, "I'm moving and I don't want to deal with moving the dog. I'd like to euthanize it."

If I move after vet school, that is precisely what I will do with my geriatric dog that has about a 50% success rate trying to get up stairs in the last few months, significant orthopedic pain/disease, along with some advancing canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome. It would be cruel to move her.

But I guess you disapprove. Ah well.

 

[DVMDream]

Right, that's what I'm trying to say. But if this cat is in your clinic, it obviously hasn't been dropped off at a shelter, which is another avenue. Why euthanize it when it potentially just needs a new home? .

The issue is you are seeing a spraying cat as "healthy" while I think many others would agree that it is not. We need to stop looking at just the physical condition of an animal to evaluate healthy. A behavioral issue very much puts an animal into an unhealthy category (its life could be at stake). So, therefore, that euthanasia of the spraying cat is no longer euthanizing a healthy animal. If the owner has exhausted all options, just like any medical condition, and it hasn't helped then why is euthanasia of that cat that is spraying "unethical" or "bad"?

 

[dyachei]

And while adding further burden to a shelter isn't ideal, it certainly gives that healthy animal an extra chance at life., even if it only had a few days or so to get adopted out.

I still disagree. I had a healthy young cat that I euthanized recently. He was biting (enough to draw blood) the owner in her sleep. But he was 2 years old with no health problems.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Or how about some real scenarios I have seen:

Owner of 2 dogs: a healthy 5 year old border collie and a 10 year old dachshund. The owner has lost her home due to the bad economy and housing market, the apartment she found to move into that she can afford does not allow dogs. She is a really good owner, all animals up to date on vaccines has cared for all medical problems, but now life has happened, she has to find homes for the dogs. She finds one for the border collie but after a long time of searching she can't find one for the dachshund. The dachshund has some degenerative disc disease, but is healthy and doing well, able to walk, not in any pain. The dog also is not friendly with new people and can be nippy. Owner has exhausted everything but dumping the dog at the shelter, she decides euthanasia is better. She brings the dog to you. What do you do?

Second one:

4 year old Lhasa Apso with diabetes. The diabetes is well controlled with medication. Owner has recently lost his job, he can't afford the dog's insulin anymore. The dog is healthy, happy and doing well when he brings it to you for euthanasia because the owner would rather the dog not deteriorate due to uncontrolled diabetes. What do you do?

Both of those animals could potentially go to a shelter. The shelter could do a more thorough behavioral evaluation on the dachshund and determine if it can adjust to a new home. It might be euthanized at the shelter if it proves to be that unfriendly/nippy (and again, they is passing the buck to a shelter). Shelters adopt out animals with controlled conditions all the time. While it might take longer for the right person to come along, sometimes they do. Again, I'm advocating for the extra chance at life for these two particular dogs. Each veterinarian can guess for himself/herself if the animal will make it out of a shelter or not and choose to euthanize at the clinic if they want.

The issue is you are seeing a spraying cat as "healthy" while I think many others would agree that it is not. We need to stop looking at just the physical condition of an animal to evaluate healthy. A behavioral issue very much puts an animal into an unhealthy category (its life could be at stake). So, therefore, that euthanasia of the spraying cat is no longer euthanizing a healthy animal. If the owner has exhausted all options, just like any medical condition, and it hasn't helped then why is euthanasia of that cat that is spraying "unethical" or "bad"?

I understand that undesirable behaviors are considered "unhealthy." I still consider a shelter an option that the owner hasn't utilized. I can't tell you if the shelter would euthanize a spraying cat on the spot because I don't know. I'm just saying that from personal experience, a cat that is seemingly destined to be euthanized due to "all options being exhausted" ended up doing perfectly fine in a new home. I can't tell you what his behavior would have been like in a shelter.

I still disagree. I had a healthy young cat that I euthanized recently. He was biting (enough to draw blood) the owner in her sleep. But he was 2 years old with no health problems.

Like I said earlier, the veterinarian can interpret each situation individually. If you brought me a rottweiler that was trying to maul every person it saw, yeah, I'd probably euthanize it. It wouldn't change much in a shelter, presumably. They'd euthanize it there too. There's a lot of different aspects of behavior that warrant different responses. Spraying cat? I'm all for exhausting all avenues. Dog that took it's owners fingers off and is regularly trying to bite? Yeah, that one's a bit more clear in what someone should do.

 

[DVMDream]

Both of those animals could potentially go to a shelter. The shelter could do a more thorough behavioral evaluation on the dachshund and determine if it can adjust to a new home. It might be euthanized at the shelter if it proves to be that unfriendly/nippy (and again, they is passing the buck to a shelter). Shelters adopt out animals with controlled conditions all the time. While it might take longer for the right person to come along, sometimes they do. Again, I'm advocating for the extra chance at life for these two particular dogs. Each veterinarian can guess for himself/herself if the animal will make it out of a shelter or not and choose to euthanize at the clinic if they want.

.

It is a 10 year old dachshund that has severe issues with new people and you want to throw it into a shelter environment??????

ETA: The diabetic dog would most likely be euthanized on entrance to the shelter as they don't have the staff to give it insulin every 12 hours. Unless a foster home is available that same day, but even then the funds for that might be limited. So most likely, that dog will never see the adoption floor.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

It is a 10 year old dachshund that has severe issues with new people and you want to throw it into a shelter environment??????

There's a difference between saying he has "severe issues" and "can be nippy/unfriendly." Clarify how severely unfriendly/nippy this dog is, then.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

It is a 10 year old dachshund that has severe issues with new people and you want to throw it into a shelter environment??????

Not to mention that most shelters do not have trained behavior staff to further evaluate the dog, or space to put the dog, or time. How many more adoptable animals would then be euthanized waiting for someone to come along for this special case who would be, let's be honest, taking up space?

I am very sympathetic to problem dogs. I have a problem dog and I love her dearly. However, when it comes to shelters, they are in the business of saving as many lives as possible. And that included bumping sick or behaviorally damaged animals to the bottom of the heap.

 

[DVMDream]

There's a difference between saying he has "severe issues" and "can be nippy/unfriendly." Clarify how severely unfriendly/nippy this dog is, then.

He tries to nip at anyone that isn't his owner.. hence "unfriendly towards new people and can be nippy".

 

[LetItSnow]

Both of those animals could potentially go to a shelter.

Nobody is trying to say they "couldn't" go to a shelter. Some of us are just saying that it also would not be wrong to euthanize them. You seem to have a mindset that says there's only one 'right' choice - that's why I've teased with the moral compass thing, because you always seem to think that the answer is clearly a or b or whatever. Life just isn't that black and white, but yet you always seem comfortable judging people for their decisions.

 

[DVMDream]

There's a difference between saying he has "severe issues" and "can be nippy/unfriendly." Clarify how severely unfriendly/nippy this dog is, then.

But regardless of the severity, I told you she is unfriendly with any new people. What do you think a shelter is full of? Is that really the type of dog you want to subject to a shelter environment? Is that the place for that dog? Or would it be better off not having to deal with that stress? I'm not saying that is wrong to send them to the shelter, but you have to consider is death really worse than the stress the shelter will induce on this particular dog or cat?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Right, that's what I'm trying to say. But if this cat is in your clinic, it obviously hasn't been dropped off at a shelter, which is another avenue. Why euthanize it when it potentially just needs a new home?

She just said if all other options has been exhausted. This may include checking with shelters for space and not finding it. For example, where I live, shelters do not take cats. If you bring a cat, it will be euthanized right then and there. The no-kill rescue is booked solid and overflowing. I mean hell, we still have gas chambers in our neighboring state. You are making the shelter world seem like this easy and viable alternative for every case, and it is most certainly not.

Thus far, it seems you are basing your argument off of one single anecdote - your own cat.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Ok. Well, I guess that wasn't clear when you made a blanket black and white "you have a responsibility not to do this" kind of statement.



If I move after vet school, that is precisely what I will do with my geriatric dog that has about a 50% success rate trying to get up stairs in the last few months, significant orthopedic pain/disease, along with some advancing canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome. It would be cruel to move her.

But I guess you disapprove. Ah well.

So...your dog is very unhealthy and is getting to the point where quality of life is pretty poor. Completely different than saying you "just don't want to deal with moving your dog." Whether you were going to move or not, you know your dog isn't doing well (which I'm sorry to hear, by the way).

Not to mention that most shelters do not have trained behavior staff to further evaluate the dog, or space to put the dog, or time. How many more adoptable animals would then be euthanized waiting for someone to come along for this special case who would be, let's be honest, taking up space?

So then the shelter would likely euthanize. And what I said about the veterinarian making a judgment call about a particular dog coming into play.

But regardless of the severity, I told you she is unfriendly with any new people. What do you think a shelter is full of? Is that really the type of dog you want to subject to a shelter environment? Is that the place for that dog? Or would it be better off not having to deal with that stress?

I suppose it would depend on the shelter, then. I'll throw no-kills and rescues into the mix, now. One rescue we donate some services to regularly takes in older patients or those that might have a chance, but might take longer to adopt out in your city shelters or need extra TLC. I can guarantee you this rescue would pick up this dachshund to try to work with it a little and see what she could do.

She just said if all other options has been exhausted. This may include checking with shelters for space and not finding it. For example, where I live, shelters do not take cats. If you bring a cat, it will be euthanized right then and there. The no-kill rescue is booked solid and overflowing. You are making the shelter world seem like this easy and viable alternative for every case, and it is most certainly not.

Every shelter and rescue has their own policy, sure. If it doesn't take cats, then don't bring the cat there. See if you really cannot bring the cat anywhere else within a reasonable drive. I'm sure I just opened another can of worms with "reasonable drive," lol.

 

[KCgophervet]

Both of those animals could potentially go to a shelter. The shelter could do a more thorough behavioral evaluation on the dachshund and determine if it can adjust to a new home. It might be euthanized at the shelter if it proves to be that unfriendly/nippy (and again, they is passing the buck to a shelter). Shelters adopt out animals with controlled conditions all the time. While it might take longer for the right person to come along, sometimes they do. Again, I'm advocating for the extra chance at life for these two particular dogs. Each veterinarian can guess for himself/herself if the animal will make it out of a shelter or not and choose to euthanize at the clinic if they want.

I completely disagree here. If I owned that dachshund I would not want to subject it to a seriously stressful "few more days" at a shelter surrounded by people it doesn't know. Especially since the odds of it being adopted out are so extremely small (older dog = strike one, already has some health issues = strike 2, behavioral issues on top of that = strike 3). Is it really in the best interest of the dog to subject it to a few more days in a shelter? When the end result is most likely the same, and the alternative is for him to pass peacefully with the family he's known for most of his life? Honestly this scenario seems perfectly black and white to me, but opposite to how you see it.

 

[LetItSnow]

So...your dog is very unhealthy and is getting to the point where quality of life is pretty poor. Completely different than saying you "just don't want to deal with moving your dog." Whether you were going to move or not, you know your dog isn't doing well (which I'm sorry to hear, by the way).

But see, that's my point. You just threw out a blanket statement about someone saying they didn't want to move their dog. You didn't allow for the fact that there may be a reason. You're going to get clients like that, too, who aren't great about articulating their thinking. They may be someone with a dog like me, but they may tell you that they want to euthanize because they "just don't want to deal with moving [the] dog". That's life with real clients.

All I'm saying is that - in my opinion - you should be slower to judge than what I've seen in your posts. *shrug*

 

[that redhead]

From the veterinary standpoint: I love animals. I grew up watching Irwin and Corwin. Jane Goodall was and is a huge inspiration for me. I want to help save species from extinction, and travel and be hands on with wild animals, not household pets like dogs or cats. Animals are pure love, they are innocent. They are our best friends and companions, parts of families.
Pros: Get to do some of everything(no specialization required), wide variety of ailments and patients, live in wherever area I practice in, option to own my own practice, disease research, be in nature around animals
Cons: Lower income and bigger debt, the hours, putting animals down if owner requests or not being able to do diagnostics/treatment because of funds, lots of bodies to memorize, patients can't say what's wrong(but that's also an appeal in a way)

The thing is, to work with wild animals as a veterinarian, you're either working as a zoo-type vet (where you absolutely need specialization as well as contacts that run very deep and demonstrate an interest over a very long period of time) or as a small animal vet (dogs and cats) that does some wildlife rehab center work on the side. You also wouldn't own your own practice as a wildlife vet, you'd most likely work for the government or contract in. So lots of bureaucracy.

For the cons, treatments and diagnostics for wild animals is always fund-based and the gov't doesn't always have those funds or the inclination. You may not always be able to provide the highest level of diagnostics (there aren't a whole lot of reference ranges for common lab species, let alone weird wild critters) or treatment. You may have to euthanize animals or, even worse in my opinion, drag out an animal's life just for the sake of its genetics/part of a small pool of that species left.

Edited to add: I see you mention large animal med as a back up. I'd encourage you to shadow one of those vets sometime and get a feel. Very little in the realm of diagnostics/treatment, and you can bet your butter that the majority of animals are just sent to slaughter instead of working up a clinical problem. It isn't really medicine in the traditional sense, but a herd health approach that is still medicine, but from a very different angle.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be a vet, just that you need to really consider what you'd do more closely and build a better understanding of that.

 

[DVMDream]

I suppose it would depend on the shelter, then. I'll throw no-kills and rescues into the mix, now. One rescue we donate some services to regularly takes in older patients or those that might have a chance, but might take longer to adopt out in your city shelters or need extra TLC. I can guarantee you this rescue would pick up this dachshund to try to work with it a little and see what she could do.

A "no-kill" shelter might still euthanize this dog. Most people don't understand that definition of "no-kill", but it does not equal no killing of any animals. This dachshund would most likely be listed under a category that would make euthanasia an option, even at a "no-kill" shelter.

And great if you have a rescue available to you, but that wasn't the case here. Hence saying that all other routes had been exhausted. This owners was adamant about finding a new home for the dog so she tried every rescue, "no-kill" shelter and breed specific rescue in the area.