What would convince you a younger applicant (<18yo) is "mature enough" for medical school?

[Critical-Pass2843]

I originally made a WAMC post but realized I had a general question as well as the specific question about my personal situation, so I figured I would ask the general question here: If you are interviewing a younger applicant for medical school, what would convince you they are "mature enough" for medical school? The background is, I graduated from college at 16, decided to take two gap years, and am planning to apply in the next cycle to start in Fall 2024 (I will be 18 by the time I start; if interested in my specific situation you can read the full details over there but I am also curious about general feedback that might apply to situations other than my own)

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[MDMechEngr]

if you have the intelligence at 18 , know what you are getting into, and come accross well during your interview, you 100% are matrue enough to attend medical school and become a good doc. you dont have to be a 25 year old to matriculate. The vast majority of people on this board, includig me, can't relate to you because we matriculated at 24. I wish I was able to start when I was 18, but I was not able to do that. you are gifted if you can do that. so Go for it . I would take advice from adcoms on this board with a grain of salt. GL.

 

[Goro]

A good interview

 

[Critical-Pass2843]

A good interview

Thanks! I am anticipating this question in the interview, and contemplating how to respond. I could talk about living independently, or graduating from college early, or leading research projects. However I don't know if any of these would be persuasive to someone who is struck by my young age and appearance. Any thoughts?

 

[LunaOri]

A LOT would depend on the maturity of your answers to your interview questions. Other things that would be considered are your demonstrated commitment to medicine (prove you really know what you are getting into) and your demonstrated commitment to service (non-clinical volunteering). A long-term commitment to either clinical work (volunteer or employed) and/or non-clinical volunteering would make you a much more desirable candidate. What did you do during your gap years? Something like TFA or Peace Corps would be very impressive.

 

[LunaOri]

Just looked at your other post--what's missing for me is a commitment to service, unless your clinical experiences involve helping those less fortunate than yourself.

 

[deleted1053890]

Above average EC’s and writing. Especially clinical experience, shadowing, and non-clinical volunteering.

 

[lacrossegirl420]

I saw your WAMC and think your application is very impressive (even if you were a “normal” applicant, doubly so given your age). I’m sure a lot of top schools will be interested and won’t be concerned about your age. Go ahead and apply

 

[Isoval]

My concern with people <18 matriculating to medical school has very little to do with the demeanor of the future doctor but much more to do with the patients that they will see. It is, frankly, hard enough to get people to listen to me as a traditionally-aged doc, I can't imagine how poor patient compliance would be when someone who can't even drink yet is giving the information.

All of this is temporary, yes, but that would factor into my thoughts. I have little issue with people in the 18-21 range matriculating to medical school, but my opinion decreases the further you get away from 18 in the negative direction.

 

[lacrossegirl420]

@Isoval - fair point, but how would patients even know how old one is. It’s not really possible to tell how old someone is just based on how they appear, that’s too much of a generalization. If that were the case, then the problem would also apply to young-looking doctors who are actually in their late 20’s or 30’s. But of course, we all know it would be ridiculous for an adcom to discriminate against a “normal-aged” applicant who just looked young

 

[Critical-Pass2843]

Just looked at your other post--what's missing for me is a commitment to service, unless your clinical experiences involve helping those less fortunate than yourself.

One of my volunteer experiences (a few hundred hours or so) is volunteering at a free clinic, is that along the lines of what you had in mind? My role is mainly organizational (setting up, answering phones, that kind of thing) as well as guiding patients to where they need to go.

A LOT would depend on the maturity of your answers to your interview questions. Other things that would be considered are your demonstrated commitment to medicine (prove you really know what you are getting into) and your demonstrated commitment to service (non-clinical volunteering). A long-term commitment to either clinical work (volunteer or employed) and/or non-clinical volunteering would make you a much more desirable candidate. What did you do during your gap years? Something like TFA or Peace Corps would be very impressive.

Thanks! On my gap year I'm mainly working at a biomedical devices startup designing assistive devices for people with mobility-related disabilities. I am also finishing up a few research projects with my undergrad lab, including final revisions for a co-first author paper. When there is time or on weekends I still do some clinical volunteering or shadowing. A lot of the "classic" gap year activities (e.g. Peace Corps, prestigious fellowships) are limited to 18 and up. To be honest I have ethical objections to the TFA model (it takes a comparable amount of time to train a teacher as it does to train a doctor, so TFA is like taking someone who has no previous medical training, putting them through a five-week course, and then placing them in a physician role). Suffice it to say I don't think I have the training to be an effective teacher.

I guess my question is--perceived maturity in an interview setting seems to be heavily influenced by subconscious bias due to appearance--how do I reduce that bias and shift it to content? I'll be honest, I look younger than I am and frequently have the experience where people who only know me online or in writing think I am much older than I am, but once they see me in person, they immediately start treating me in a patronizing way or talking down to me.

 

[deleted1053890]

I saw your WAMC and think your application is very impressive (even if you were a “normal” applicant, doubly so given your age). I’m sure a lot of top schools will be interested and won’t be concerned about your age. Go ahead and apply

Unfortunately, unlike applicants, medical schools aren’t “doubly” impressed by an applicant being younger. My impression is that admissions committees are generally put off by very young applicants due to potential inability of the student to fit in with older classmates.

 

[LizzyM]

What would convince you a younger applicant (<18yo) is "mature enough" for medical school?​

Four more years of life experience.

 

[Critical-Pass2843]

My concern with people <18 matriculating to medical school has very little to do with the demeanor of the future doctor but much more to do with the patients that they will see. It is, frankly, hard enough to get people to listen to me as a traditionally-aged doc, I can't imagine how poor patient compliance would be when someone who can't even drink yet is giving the information.

All of this is temporary, yes, but that would factor into my thoughts. I have little issue with people in the 18-21 range matriculating to medical school, but my opinion decreases the further you get away from 18 in the negative direction.

Thanks--it sounds like you're talking about the principle of "meeting patients where they are" as a part of compassionate patient-centered care. If this cycle goes well I will turn 18 before matriculating, but I'll be honest, I "look" young (I'm on the short side, I'm a stick, I have a "babyface", etc.). Most of that is probably genetics--my sister is 10 years older than me but people often assume she is a teenager/we're the same age because we look very similar, and at my age she looked about the same as she does now. So waiting a few more years probably won't make that much difference lol. I'll have to just show the haters by looking amazing when I'm 50, haha!

Do you have any thoughts on how to "look" older or more authoritative to establish a relationship of trust with patients? Of course it goes without saying that I will put the same amount or more effort into knowing what I'm talking about because that's the most important part, but as you say, the real outcome measure is if patients are receptive

 

[Isoval]

@Isoval - fair point, but how would patients even know how old one is. It’s not really possible to tell how old someone is just based on how they appear, that’s too much of a generalization. If that were the case, then the problem would also apply to young-looking doctors who are actually in their late 20’s or 30’s. But of course, we all know it would be ridiculous for an adcom to discriminate against a “normal-aged” applicant who just looked young

You don’t need a numerical age to think that someone *looks* too young to give you medical advice.

Thanks--it sounds like you're talking about the principle of "meeting patients where they are" as a part of compassionate patient-centered care. If this cycle goes well I will turn 18 before matriculating, but I'll be honest, I "look" young (I'm on the short side, I'm a stick, I have a "babyface", etc.). Most of that is probably genetics--my sister is 10 years older than me but people often assume she is a teenager/we're the same age because we look very similar, and at my age she looked about the same as she does now. So waiting a few more years probably won't make that much difference lol. I'll have to just show the haters by looking amazing when I'm 50, haha!

Do you have any thoughts on how to "look" older or more authoritative to establish a relationship of trust with patients? Of course it goes without saying that I will put the same amount or more effort into knowing what I'm talking about because that's the most important part, but as you say, the real outcome measure is if patients are receptive

At some level, there’s an amount of confidence you can portray that isn’t overbearing but is enough to give a weight to the things you say. The more you *look* like you know what you’re doing, the more people will think that you know what you’re doing. It sounds stupid and common sense to say, but it’s pretty true.

The trick is truly in the way you carry yourself and this is what is really emphasized by many others in this thread alluding to astounding interviews such as @Goro

 

[Critical-Pass2843]

What would convince you a younger applicant (<18yo) is "mature enough" for medical school?​

Four more years of life experience.

I can give this a certain amount of rope, which is why I decided to take two gap years after graduating and apply to matriculate at 18, rather than applying straight through. However it's not unlimited -- I'm not going to take 6 gap years just so I can apply at 22, or 9 gap years (a gap decade?!) to apply at the median age at matriculation. Leading a project in a startup/industry setting has been an interesting experience that I'm glad I had (and will probably contribute until I matriculate) but I can already tell this is not what I want to do long-term. On the science end--I could do research for six years, but if I were to do that I might as well do a PhD, and it wouldn't make much financial sense to plan to do PhD to (paid) MD, as opposed to a funded MD-PhD.

I get that some people discover on their gap year that they are not as in love with going to medical school as they thought. To me, however enriching I find my job (and don't get me wrong, I genuinely do love engineering), it just feels like a gap--waiting. I don't regret taking the time off though as I couldn't have known which way it would go until I actually did it. But now that I do, I don't see a point to continuing to wait further, nor would it feel authentic to force myself to do something that I know is not what I ultimately want to do

 

[LizzyM]

Have you taken the CASPER? If yes, what quartile are you in? You don't need to answer here but do think about your readiness for medical school if you aren't in the top half.

 

[Critical-Pass2843]

Have you taken the CASPER? If yes, what quartile are you in? You don't need to answer here but do think about your readiness for medical school if you aren't in the top half.

I took CASPer when I was still thinking about applying straight through. I scored in the top quartile (fwiw I was 15 at the time lol) but tbh I don't think it was a very meaningful assessment as it is easy to write the kind of answer they are "looking for", which discourages asserting strong or absolute principles even if you hold them. For example I remember one of the classic example questions was how you would handle finding out someone was stealing necessary medication for their daughter because they could not afford to buy it--I personally believe the very system of denying people necessary medicine is a priori unethical, but that obviously would not be a high-scoring answer, lol

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

You seem very mature. As someone who also did R&D engineering work on medical devices, it's not an environment where a social idiot can thrive, even hiding in the engineering department.

If you think you're ready, apply. Go in with eyes wide open and understand that not all people, esp 60+ yo adcoms, are going to agree. Temper your expectations, but I think you would still have a wildly successful cycle unless you come off as a baby in interviews.

 

[chilly_md]

One of my volunteer experiences (a few hundred hours or so) is volunteering at a free clinic, is that along the lines of what you had in mind? My role is mainly organizational (setting up, answering phones, that kind of thing) as well as guiding patients to where they need to go.

I would highly suggest something more hands-on. Options include homeless outreach, womens shelter, Habitat for Humanity, Big Brothers/Big Sisters (you would have the time to dedicate long-term for it) etc.

 

[Dantes]

Have you taken the CASPER? If yes, what quartile are you in? You don't need to answer here but do think about your readiness for medical school if you aren't in the top half.

You're saying someone should question their readiness for med school based off what they score on Casper of all things? lol

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I took CASPer when I was still thinking about applying straight through. I scored in the top quartile (fwiw I was 15 at the time lol) but tbh I don't think it was a very meaningful assessment as it is easy to write the kind of answer they are "looking for", which discourages asserting strong or absolute principles even if you hold them. ...

Wait.... you took a Casper assessment for fun? Bravo for a great result.

 

[Critical-Pass2843]

Wait.... you took a Casper assessment for fun? Bravo for a great result.

I didn't take it for fun, at the time I took it because I was planning to apply that cycle, but then decided to take a gap year. So I'll have to go through it all over again, rip...

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I didn't take it for fun, at the time I took it because I was planning to apply that cycle, but then decided to take a gap year. So I'll have to go through it all over again, rip...

Ok. I wasn't sure I was following the timeline.

Again, it's hard to know you on the internet to say that applying now is in your best interest or not. I appreciate that you are thinking through some concerns about applying, but you don't know what you don't know. Furthermore, no one comes into medical school fully prepared for what they will experience.

I have met and known some very smart and mature prodigious people in my time (especially advising through guaranteed admissions tracks). Many of them do fine, and one can be surprised how well they integrated into the student body. The most difficult part of adjusting was accepting failure... including falling short of perfection.

I think what you need to be sure about is that this is really what you want. Once you start, you can't undo the decision... or at least you need to look ahead and not back.

I don't know whether your age prevented you from other opportunities to work with the community because of the age of consent and independence, and that would be the only question I would have left here... because I don't know if the hospital clinics would have issues with your age when being around patients. Given the ages of some young RN students, I don't feel it could be an issue but I don't know.

It sounds though that you would be ready or at least willing to be trained and mentored. If so, that would address some concerns with immaturity to me.

 

[Critical-Pass2843]

I would highly suggest something more hands-on. Options include homeless outreach, womens shelter, Habitat for Humanity, Big Brothers/Big Sisters (you would have the time to dedicate long-term for it) etc.

Thanks--my hospital volunteering is more along these lines, reading to patients, sitting with them and talking to them, doing activities with them. I also mentor high school and college students one-on-one through an organization I was involved in creating. I've looked into getting involved in helping unhoused people at a homeless shelter I've volunteered at or with patients at the free clinic but understandably many of those "hands-on" roles require certain training in social work or medicine which I don't have (yet).

 

[chssoccer7]

Thanks--my hospital volunteering is more along these lines, reading to patients, sitting with them and talking to them, doing activities with them. I also mentor high school and college students one-on-one through an organization I was involved in creating. I've looked into getting involved in helping unhoused people at a homeless shelter I've volunteered at or with patients at the free clinic but understandably many of those "hands-on" roles require certain training in social work or medicine which I don't have (yet).

I assume (could be wrong, with assuming and all) that he meant something more of being in contact with that at need population.

I'm not sure about the rest of the places, but the homeless shelter near me has opportunities like this that don't require much training. For example, i'm able to check out a basketball and play basketball with them on saturdays. I can work in the computer lab and help people with their resumes/how to use Excel, etc. There are many ways to "help" hands on and get valuable time with the population, which I think is more beneficial. Especially for a younger person, you need to prove that you can interact with populations different from you, empathize and relate to them.

Habitat for Humanity most of the time just wants you to show up to the projects and someone will direct you how to help. Many of my students when I was in the military did this for community service hours and none of them had any homebuilding training of any sort.

In short- there are a lot of ways to get hands on with underserved populations, just be a bit creative. You can teach yoga, meditation, almost anything that you know that could be beneficial. Many places, like homeless shelters, that may not have a program set up like this will be more than willing to let you do something if you propose it to them. From your post and background you sound like a very motivated, intelligent person. I suspect if you propose some way to integrate with the population at a homeless shelter, they would be willing to let you try.

From there, it's just articulating on your application what you did and how it helped/what you learned from it. I suspect adcoms enjoy reading about these outside of the box stories more than the "i handed out blankets and walked patients to their rooms" stories that a lot of us have. (Not that there's anything wrong with this experience, I just assume reading the same thing 4000 times is boring.) Sometimes, interesting is better. It's important to remember that while we aren't really competing with others for admission, we are competing with others to be memorable to the people on the adcom. 3.8+/515+ isn't rare according to MSAR and isn't catching attention. It's the details that matter and this is how we write those details.

 

[chilly_md]

Thanks--my hospital volunteering is more along these lines, reading to patients, sitting with them and talking to them, doing activities with them. I also mentor high school and college students one-on-one through an organization I was involved in creating. I've looked into getting involved in helping unhoused people at a homeless shelter I've volunteered at or with patients at the free clinic but understandably many of those "hands-on" roles require certain training in social work or medicine which I don't have (yet).

See the great above explanation by chssoccer7. You have been mostly or entirely around people who are not in need. You have clinical experience from the hospital, but admissions readers will be interested to see how you have helped those less fortunate in the community. Helping high school students or college students is staying within the same academic environment.

 

[LizzyM]

I do think that one of the impediments until now has been being a minor. Some programs/institutions do not want the liability of placing a minor in a situation where they are alone and unsupervised with adults who might do them harm. Consequently, it can be hard for a pre-med who is under-age to get experiences in homeless shelters and needle exchange programs and similar situations.

I've volunteered in a homeless shelter -- it required no special skillset. Many clinics have positions for adults who are not trained clinicians -- it is why I define clinical experience as being close enough to smell patients (that's close) but not necessarily touching them.

 

[Critical-Pass2843]

See the great above explanation by chssoccer7. You have been mostly or entirely around people who are not in need. You have clinical experience from the hospital, but admissions readers will be interested to see how you have helped those less fortunate in the community. Helping high school students or college students is staying within the same academic environment.

I do think that one of the impediments until now has been being a minor. Some programs/institutions do not want the liability of placing a minor in a situation where they are alone and unsupervised with adults who might do them harm. Consequently, it can be hard for a pre-med who is under-age to get experiences in homeless shelters and needle exchange programs and similar situations.

I've volunteered in a homeless shelter -- it required no special skillset. Many clinics have positions for adults who are not trained clinicians -- it is why I define clinical experience as being close enough to smell patients (that's close) but not necessarily touching them.

Hm I guess it depends on your definition of "less fortunate" -- I primarily worked with an underserved school district with students who were identified as "at-risk" due to being low-income, homeless, disciplinary violations or else were referred for school-mandated tutoring as part of a discipline diversion program. However I do think I see your point that more one-on-one work with marginalized populations would be a good experience for me to get. Something that has been a little unsatisfying to me about my previous volunteering is that I have had limited opportunity to follow up with the same people over time. I just reached out to a friend from college now who works at a halfway house near where I live and he told me they were always in need of volunteers to help their clients, recently incarcerated people, with different aspects of their transition back into society. It sounds like there would be chances to work one-on-one and develop individual relationships with the residents and follow up longitudinally after they leave the halfway house. This sounds like a perfect fit. Thanks!

 

[Tenk]

Besides good grades, holding a steady job where people can vouch for your social skills. There’s the book part of medicine and then there’s the social part. I’m sure you’re smart as hell but your patients don’t come as a multiple choice question and social skills can be just as important as mental skills. If you have a bunch of evidence that you are as socially mature as you are educated, would definitely help relieve any doubt.