Why can't pharmacists change brand name to generic?

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I am referring to the California regulation BPC 4052.5 so pharmacists working in California

How do you document such changes? "ODT not covered, pt OK with regular" or "Pt can't swallow tablets, pt OK with change to liquid" without the "MD OK with change"? Seems odd that such changes are allowed in your state, but I guess it would make sense if pt compliance is improved. It does save all 3 parties (RPh, MD, and Pt) from wasted time.

Though, how do they determine when some changes aren't allowed (doxy mono vs doxy hyclate in your example)? Can the Concerta in the OP's example be changed automatically without a call as well? Nevada doesn't allow any of those changes automatically.

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SUBSTITUTION OF EXTENDED RELEASE METHYLPHENIDATE PRODUCTS. As pharmacists are aware, in recent weeks the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) changed the Orange Book equivalency rating of extended release methylphenidate products manufactured by Mallinkrodt and Kudco from “AB” to “BX” due to concerns about bioavailability equivalency with Janssen Pharmaceuticals’ Concerta product. More details concerning FDA’s action, the reasons for it, and the consequences are found here: Questions and Answers Regarding Methylphenidate Hydrochloride Extended Release Tablets (generic Concerta) made by Mallinckrodt and UCB/Kremers Urban (formerly Kudco)

Note further that Janssen Pharmaceuticals manufactures an “authorized generic” of Concerta, which is marketed by Actavis under licensing agreement. Actavis’ product is not marketed under the Concerta name, but it is identical to Janssen’s Concerta. FDA’s Orange Book rating change does not apply to the Actavis product.

Board staff have received questions as a result of the FDA action:

1. If a provider prescribes Concerta and authorizes generic substitution, what may I substitute? As noted above, the Actavis marketed generic is the only AB-rated equivalent product to Concerta.

2. What if the provider prescribes Concerta, authorizes generic substitution, and the patient was previously stabilized on a Mallinkrodt or Kudco product? A pharmacist may seek a verbal authorization/clarification from the prescriber that a patient already taking, and stabilized on, a Mallinkrodt or Kudco product should continue to receive that product. Clinical discussion and documentation of any such approval is critical, however, for at least two reasons: (a) the product is a Schedule II controlled substance; and (b) FDA’s decision to redesignate these products as “BX” rated to Concerta stems from bioavailability concerns. Note further that the FDA’s statement (linked above) warns that the Mallinkrodt and Kudco products may be withdrawn from the market if the companies do not or cannot confirm the bioequivalence of their products to Concerta within six (6) months.

3. What if the provider prescribes Concerta, authorizes generic substitution, and the patient has never taken an extended release methylphenidate product? Again, the Actavis marketed generic is the only AB-rated equivalent product to Concerta. As noted in the answer to question #2, a pharmacist could seek a verbal authorization from the prescriber to dispense the Mallinkrodt or Kudco product. But this approach is not recommended due to FDA’s bioavailability concerns with these products and the possibility that they will not be available at all within six (6) months.

4. What if the provider prescribes Concerta, authorizes generic substitution, and the patient has previously taken the brand Concerta product? Again, the Actavis marketed generic is the only AB-rated equivalent product to Concerta. As noted in the answer to question #2, a pharmacist could seek a verbal authorization from the prescriber to dispense the Mallinkrodt or Kudco product. But this approach is not recommended due to FDA’s bioavailability concerns with these products and the possibility that they will not be available at all within six (6) months.

Source: http://www.ncbop.org/PDF/CONCERTA_METHYLPHENIDATE_FAQ.pdf
 
SUBSTITUTION OF EXTENDED RELEASE METHYLPHENIDATE PRODUCTS. As pharmacists are aware, in recent weeks the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) changed the Orange Book equivalency rating of extended release methylphenidate products manufactured by Mallinkrodt and Kudco from “AB” to “BX” due to concerns about bioavailability equivalency with Janssen Pharmaceuticals’ Concerta product. More details concerning FDA’s action, the reasons for it, and the consequences are found here: Questions and Answers Regarding Methylphenidate Hydrochloride Extended Release Tablets (generic Concerta) made by Mallinckrodt and UCB/Kremers Urban (formerly Kudco)

Note further that Janssen Pharmaceuticals manufactures an “authorized generic” of Concerta, which is marketed by Actavis under licensing agreement. Actavis’ product is not marketed under the Concerta name, but it is identical to Janssen’s Concerta. FDA’s Orange Book rating change does not apply to the Actavis product.

Board staff have received questions as a result of the FDA action:

1. If a provider prescribes Concerta and authorizes generic substitution, what may I substitute? As noted above, the Actavis marketed generic is the only AB-rated equivalent product to Concerta.

2. What if the provider prescribes Concerta, authorizes generic substitution, and the patient was previously stabilized on a Mallinkrodt or Kudco product? A pharmacist may seek a verbal authorization/clarification from the prescriber that a patient already taking, and stabilized on, a Mallinkrodt or Kudco product should continue to receive that product. Clinical discussion and documentation of any such approval is critical, however, for at least two reasons: (a) the product is a Schedule II controlled substance; and (b) FDA’s decision to redesignate these products as “BX” rated to Concerta stems from bioavailability concerns. Note further that the FDA’s statement (linked above) warns that the Mallinkrodt and Kudco products may be withdrawn from the market if the companies do not or cannot confirm the bioequivalence of their products to Concerta within six (6) months.

3. What if the provider prescribes Concerta, authorizes generic substitution, and the patient has never taken an extended release methylphenidate product? Again, the Actavis marketed generic is the only AB-rated equivalent product to Concerta. As noted in the answer to question #2, a pharmacist could seek a verbal authorization from the prescriber to dispense the Mallinkrodt or Kudco product. But this approach is not recommended due to FDA’s bioavailability concerns with these products and the possibility that they will not be available at all within six (6) months.

4. What if the provider prescribes Concerta, authorizes generic substitution, and the patient has previously taken the brand Concerta product? Again, the Actavis marketed generic is the only AB-rated equivalent product to Concerta. As noted in the answer to question #2, a pharmacist could seek a verbal authorization from the prescriber to dispense the Mallinkrodt or Kudco product. But this approach is not recommended due to FDA’s bioavailability concerns with these products and the possibility that they will not be available at all within six (6) months.

Source: http://www.ncbop.org/PDF/CONCERTA_METHYLPHENIDATE_FAQ.pdf

It's not legal to seek a "verbal authorization" in Texas, which is where the troll OP practices
 
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How do you document such changes? "ODT not covered, pt OK with regular" or "Pt can't swallow tablets, pt OK with change to liquid" without the "MD OK with change"? Seems odd that such changes are allowed in your state, but I guess it would make sense if pt compliance is improved. It does save all 3 parties (RPh, MD, and Pt) from wasted time.

Though, how do they determine when some changes aren't allowed (doxy mono vs doxy hyclate in your example)? Can the Concerta in the OP's example be changed automatically without a call as well? Nevada doesn't allow any of those changes automatically.

There is a patient notification requirement so if you ask the patient and they consent to the substitution, that would be considered patient notification.

Active chemical ingredients - hyclate is a different API than monohydrate

BTW there are a few AB-rated products to Concerta. Trigen and Mylan for example.
 
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I’m a pharmacist working in Texas and we substitute Concerta for methylphenidate ER all the time as well as other branded medications. only reason I see why they would be calling if the E-scripts says brand medically necessary (DAW1)/ no substitutions allowed OR the brand to generic is not therapeutically equivalent.

Only other times I see brand vs genetics issue is insurance but in your case I don’t think that applies.

No, the system is likely selecting the correct NDC for you - the one that is equivalent. Or at least, it should.
 
So quick question for your pharmacist folks:

If I write for a 90-day supply, can y'all change to 30 day supplies with 2 refills on your own authority? And vice versa?

If the patient says - I just want a 30 day supply at a time, then the system would do the rest, and in the systems I know, that would be just fine.
 
Don't kid yourself. A cardiologist today told me that carvedilol only has beta activity.

LOL seriously? That's pretty awesome. But then again, most pharmacists swear the heart ONLY has Beta 1 receptors. SOOOOOO... ;)
 
Had yet another example come up today....

As you guys know, epi-pens are a real cluster**** right now. My patient needed a refill so I sent in an epi-pen prescription. Some insurances wan't me to write for brand name, some will cover only generic. I have no idea how to tell which is which unless I want to spend 30 minutes on an insurance company phone line talking to some bureaucrat. Ain't nobody got time for that. So, I send in the epi-pen script, but I specifically make sure the "substitution allowed" box is checked.

Of course the pharmacist calls and tells me it's $400 and wants to know if there's an alternative I'd like to use.

I answer -- well, what alternatives are available? He says "well you can send over generic epinephrine"

I said "great idea, you can switch it for me right"

His answer: "nope I need a new script"

Unbelievable. You guys can independently change dosing for insulin or coumadin with no MD oversight whatsoever, yet you need my approval and a new script to change from epi-pen to generic epinephrine.

How about you require all your patients to either have their formulary in hand or access to it on their phones/online when they come to your clinic? Problem solved. Next mensa problem, please. Process that for a moment. Just think how much easier your life could have been all along, had you thought of that. But no, a peasant retail Walmart pharmacist had to solve the problem for you...
Cut the middle man. Solve things at a greater scale.
Sure, we could run fake claims to figure out what's covered but the pharmacy gets charged for that, and it's not legal to do so. Every patient gets their formulary either by mail or electronic delivery. They're supposed to have it on them.
 
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There is a patient notification requirement so if you ask the patient and they consent to the substitution, that would be considered patient notification.

Active chemical ingredients - hyclate is a different API than monohydrate

BTW there are a few AB-rated products to Concerta. Trigen and Mylan for example.

On the hyclate vs monohydrate dilemma - a preceptor had me look into this during an APPE rotation. It might have been the VA. Anyway, looked at studies, etc. PK parameters are pretty similar for both. However, patients at risk of stomach bleeds who were treated with hyclate, had an even higher risk of bleeds. So if you have a patient on warfarin, or with a history of bleeding, then stay away from it, and choose monohydrate. Hyclate is polar and water soluble. It makes sense that it would have such effect on the stomach as it's being absorbed, whereas monohydrate is only slightly water soluble,
Ultimately, the provider always OKs the change. I, typically, make the change, have a technician fax the prescriber to inform them of the change and done. They're going to OK it anyway. So just let them know. Walmart is not comfortable with that sequence, but I am.
 
I usually go by what the insurance dictates especially Medicaid plans with really strict formularies. Like one covers only mono caps and another covers only hyclate caps/tabs. Part D plans usually are not so picky
 
I usually go by what the insurance dictates especially Medicaid plans with really strict formularies. Like one covers only mono caps and another covers only hyclate caps/tabs. Part D plans usually are not so picky

Yup, and we have all our clinics trained already. They know to write for doxycycline and leave it open or to add a note - select product covered by insurance. Done.
 
So quick question for your pharmacist folks:

If I write for a 90-day supply, can y'all change to 30 day supplies with 2 refills on your own authority? And vice versa?

So I just learned from a colleague that in California pharmacists can't change a 30 day supply with multiple refills into a 90 day supply. Can any CA pharmacists here confirm this?
 
It's not just concerta. I had the same issue a couple of weeks ago when I sent omnicef, they wanted an order to switch it to cefdinir. Absolutely ridiculous...
Also, there are rules for CMS patients (medicare and medicaid) that a pharmacist *cannot* electronically annotate prescriptions. If they do and get audited, CMS takes back reimbursement x 10.

So, feel free to call your patient's insurance before writing a prescription to find out which med is preferred or if brand / generic is necessary prior to sending them to the pharmacy if you can't be bothered to say "ok to change" on the phone when they do the extra work to fix the prescription you wrote for your patient.
 
Let me ask you guys what kind of system you use to see which meds are covered or not. Surely you don't have to call the insurance company and be put on hold for 30 minutes right?
 
Let me ask you guys what kind of system you use to see which meds are covered or not. Surely you don't have to call the insurance company and be put on hold for 30 minutes right?
🤦

Rarely, the DUR tells us exactly what the insurance wants: "BRAND REQUIRED" or something.

Most of the time it'll say "REJECT 75: PRIOR AUTH; PRODUCT NOT ON FORMULARY".

And then we call and spend 30 minutes on the phone with insurance to ensure the patient gets the treatment they need.
Then we spend 15-20 minutes calling a doctor's office only to have a snotty physician call us back and berate us for going over and above to ensure their patient has treatment covered by their insurance.

Believe me, there are pharmacies telling you patients, "It's just not covered on your insurance" and blowing them off.
Then, your patient just goes home, never gets the medicine, and never tells you.
 
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Today I sent over an rx for Concerta to the pharmacy. This is in Texas btw.

15 minutes later I get a phone call from the pharmacist at CVS.

Pharmacist: Their insurance won't cover brand name, can you switch to generic?
Me: Why are you calling me? Can't you switch it over on your own?
Pharmacist: Well not really...
Me: Fine then, absolutely, go ahead and change it to generic methylphenidate
Pharmacist: I need your approval to switch it
Me: Why?
Pharmacist: I cant change it without your approval
Me: OK you have my approval
Pharmacist: I need a new prescription sent over
Me: So you went to 4 years of pharmacy school and you don't have approval to switch brand names to generics?
Pharmacist: Ummm

WTF is this? It's not just schedule IIs either, it happens every day. It's not just CVS either, it's every pharmacy.

Is this a Texas deal? I have no idea why a board certified pharmacist doesn't have the authority to switch meds like this. Surely this can't be real in 2018.

I thought the pharmacist was pulling a practical joke on me. 4 years in a PharmD program and they can't switch to generic? How are you guys going to become "health care providers" when you can't even switch brand to generic? Unbelievable....

It appears that we have someone who went to MD school for 8 years and can’t understand that it is silly laws and regulations that bind our hands in so many circumstances.

Or, perhaps, you never graduated from the school of emotional intelligence?

At this time I do not have the time or energy to explain why you get so many damn calls from the pharmacy. All I can assure you is to say - trust me, I really don’t want to freaking call you. And when I do - it’s typically your fault not mine. I’ll just put it that way.
 
It appears that we have someone who went to MD school for 8 years and can’t understand that it is silly laws and regulations that bind our hands in so many circumstances.

Or, perhaps, you never graduated from the school of emotional intelligence?

At this time I do not have the time or energy to explain why you get so many damn calls from the pharmacy. All I can assure you is to say - trust me, I really don’t want to freaking call you. And when I do - it’s typically your fault not mine. I’ll just put it that way.
You’re arguing about statement from 2018
 
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Let me ask you guys what kind of system you use to see which meds are covered or not. Surely you don't have to call the insurance company and be put on hold for 30 minutes right?
There’s fingertip formulary or Epocrates if you want a universal website or app. Usually I just google “[the plan name] formulary” when I get a rejection, though.
 
Also, there are rules for CMS patients (medicare and medicaid) that a pharmacist *cannot* electronically annotate prescriptions. If they do and get audited, CMS takes back reimbursement x 10.

So, feel free to call your patient's insurance before writing a prescription to find out which med is preferred or if brand / generic is necessary prior to sending them to the pharmacy if you can't be bothered to say "ok to change" on the phone when they do the extra work to fix the prescription you wrote for your patient.

Do you mean electronically modify the "contents" of the Rx? Because if any annotation is not acceptable then California's Dept of Health Care Disservices can claw back pretty much any e-script claim submitted to fee-for-service Medicaid where pharmacy documentation is mandated. JFL such a degen bureauracy
 
You’re arguing about statement from 2018
Someone had liked one of my comments which invigorated my long slumbering salt


Do you mean electronically modify the "contents" of the Rx? Because if any annotation is not acceptable then California's Dept of Health Care Disservices can claw back pretty much any e-script claim submitted to fee-for-service Medicaid where pharmacy documentation is mandated. JFL such a degen bureauracy


Yeah I wrote that poorly
 
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Also, there are rules for CMS patients (medicare and medicaid) that a pharmacist *cannot* electronically annotate prescriptions. If they do and get audited, CMS takes back reimbursement x 10.

So, feel free to call your patient's insurance before writing a prescription to find out which med is preferred or if brand / generic is necessary prior to sending them to the pharmacy if you can't be bothered to say "ok to change" on the phone when they do the extra work to fix the prescription you wrote for your patient.
I just don't get why other doctors don't just order the generic as a default instead of using brand names, it takes literally the same amount of time in the EMR
 
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I just don't get why other doctors don't just order the generic as a default instead of using brand names, it takes literally the same amount of time in the EMR
Agreed, but I would make an exception for Macrobid. I get so many scripts for generic Macrodantin with BID dosing and none of my colleagues are in agreement on how we should handle it.
 
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