Will anyone actually discuss salary? Let's see...

[cara susanna]

Offers for Pre-licensed post-postdoc Clinical Psych PhD from a "brand name" university last year:

Comprehensive state university in small city in texas tenure track job, teaching in master's/PhD program: $56k (super low cost of living, I could have lived like a king), 9 month contract

Small private university, teaching in PsyD/MA programs, in Southern California: 62k, 9 month contract

Small liberal arts college in small city in pacific northwest, teaching in master's and undergrad: 51k, 9 month contract

Full time therapy working for large HMO in the bay area: 85, 100k post license, 12 month contract

Daaamn... But you're health psych, it looks like? Everyone says that specializing can really help. Can I ask how many publications you had and if you had external funding when you applied for academic jobs?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[erg923]

I'm curious what the HMO was?

Also, somebody told me that psychologist whop sell their souls to work for insurance companies reviewing claims and assessment reports make mad dough. Anyone care to comment or explore the validity of that comment.

 

[Pragma]

Did the academic positions also offer any boosts or other incentives for licensure other than it just being expected and allowing you to keep your job? I know there are others here in academic positions (e.g., Pragma, erg), so feel free to reply as well regarding your employers.

The licensure part varies depending on what they expect you to do. If the program expects you to be supervising clinical work in any capacity, then they'll expect you to have your license - perhaps if it is critical to the job (e.g., what erg does), they might offer an incentive for it. But really, what is the point of that type of incentive? Most job ads I have seen just say licensure is required if that is the case. I think things like board certification may have more incentives attached to them than just basic licensure. There could be a "boost" if they take you on unlicensed at first for less money. I recall seeing a postdoc stay on their postdoc salary at an AMC until they got their license, then transitioned to a faculty gig and got paid a lot more.

But I know TONS of clinical psychology profs who are not licensed and don't do any clinical work (just teaching and research mentoring). If they don't intend to do any clinical practice, there really is no point to getting licensed. This is the rationale that some folks I know use to skip postdocs and go right on the academic job market. But, I think some programs may want to hire a certain proportion of faculty that are licensed for accreditation purposes.

In my current TT position (R2), it makes no difference whether I have my license or not. Me having it did not benefit me financially.

The only place I have heard of getting a "boost" for getting licensed are clinical jobs (e.g., starting out at VA or jobs like psycecream noted). If you have an "academic" job at an AMC with 100% clinical time, then obviously licensure is required as well.

 

[erg923]

I am supposedly "given" time for clinical work. I don't really see it necessarily, lol, but the incentive is that you can definitely use the time they "give you" to obtain supervisory contracts in agencies in the area or for your own contract/PP work and make some good side money.

 

[Pragma]

I don't have time given for PP, but in my contract I am allowed to do PP on the side.

The summer teaching and side PP work really help to augment the 9 month salary.

 

[PHD12]

Here are salaries for clinical post-doc fellowships i've looked into in one of the most expensive regions in the country:

Hospital inpatient unit affiliated with university: 40K
Psychiatric hospital: 38-42K
Academic Medical Center: 50K
Counseling Centers: 35-40K, some are 25K or less but I have no considered those.

Unfortunately, if you live in an expensive part of the country, the salaries are often not adjusted for the cost of living because these locations are also the most saturated. I've seen post-doc listing in Mississippi and Texas that pay just as much as the ones that I applied to even though the housing prices in my location are probably 3x higher. If you want to be a psychologist, its probably best to stay out of NYC and CA. I've even seen licensed psychologist positions for 50K posted in NYC (you'd have to live with like 4 roommates to afford this situation). I know from many networking experiences that private practice in CA can be very risky given the saturation of therapists and the high rents in the area. The people that do really well are in the top 10% and/or have forensic type practices.

 

[Sanman]

Unfortunately, if you live in an expensive part of the country, the salaries are often not adjusted for the cost of living because these locations are also the most saturated. I've seen post-doc listing in Mississippi and Texas that pay just as much as the ones that I applied to even though the housing prices in my location are probably 3x higher. If you want to be a psychologist, its probably best to stay out of NYC and CA. I've even seen licensed psychologist positions for 50K posted in NYC (you'd have to live with like 4 roommates to afford this situation). I know from many networking experiences that private practice in CA can be very risky given the saturation of therapists and the high rents in the area. The people that do really well are in the top 10% and/or have forensic type practices.

While I agree with your points, I do think that it is a little melodramatic to suggest that you need to live with 4 roommates in NYC to afford living there. I have lived there on less and it only excludes living in Manhattan, Most people commute and do alright. Much of what you refer to is a healthcare industry problem, medicare/medicaid/medical insurance companies do not really adjust payment of services for cost of living differences. Thus, you make a sacrifice to live in a higher cost of living area. Add to this saturation, because many people want to live in such places, and the result is even lower than average wages in a high cost of living area (increased competition). Such issues have driven a number of physician friends south as well recently as well. The quality of life as a healthcare provider is often best in areas that are less desirable because you get similar or better pay (due to fewer providers being available). Though, if you think $50k is bad, I saw an opening in the NYC area (not manhattan) for a full-time academic position at a smaller 4 year college with a masters program in psychology as well. The salary: $35k. Not close to a living wage for that area.

 

[Pragma]

I also live in a high cost of living city. I would note that usually you have some range of options for where you live and how much commuting you do.

Presently I live in a highly desirable part of town. However, if I wasn't in a dual-income situation, I probably would have chosen to live elsewhere.

This is part of why I think you need to look at total compensation and opportunities. As I mentioned, my mid 60s salary (9 month) is augmented significantly by a) summer teaching (super easy and low time commitment if they aren't new preps), b) PP part time, and c) occasional consultation (e.g. workshops). In the end this makes for 50-60 hour weeks during the academic year and lighter hours in the summer. While I haven't finished a whole year yet, I'd estimate the take home at 90k, which definitely provides more options in a high cost of living area.

That said, I would never take 35k in NYC no matter how much side work I could find.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yeah, I'd figured as much re: bonuses/incentives for licensure in academic positions, but figured I'd ask anyway. Thanks for the replies.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Here are salaries for clinical post-doc fellowships i've looked into in one of the most expensive regions in the country

I didn't realize you were still on internship, hopefully the months go quickly. There is definitely a spread of salaries at the post-doc/fellowship level, so make sure to ask around because often times there are "jobs" that will consider hiring someone pre-licensure if it is a good fit and you want to stay in the area.

I've even seen licensed psychologist positions for 50K posted in NYC (you'd have to live with like 4 roommates to afford this situation).

There was an evaluation position (not sure if it was for pre-employment or fitness for duty) for one of the law enforcement orgs that kept popping up on a number of list servs looking for a fully-licensed person w. experience to do these evals for $50k/yr. In NYC. I haven't seen it in the last 4-6 months, so maybe they actually got someone to take it. Ridiculous. Many decent post-docs/fellowships pay in the mid-40s these days and are NOT in NYC. I'm not sure 4 roommates are needed, but at least 1 or 2 would be needed if someone only made $50k and wanted to live anywhere halfway decent in/around NYC. For anyone not familiar with NYC real estate rentals....check out Curbed: http://ny.curbed.com

 

[Pragma]

This is what I originally envisioned for myself when I went to graduate school. I have no idea how I ended up in the pressure cooker R1 . . . certainly not on purpose.

Hey there are benefits and drawbacks to any faculty gig. I think an R1 will open a lot of other doors for people, and generally the base salary is better. Plus, the prestige is quite valuable/marketable and you'd have an easier time doing more complex research projects. Most of the folks I know who have been at R1s long term do seem very happy and if they are really elite, they tend to have a lot of control over their job description.

The red tape to doing really solid research at my institution would probably drive some others crazy, but fortunately, I like teaching enough to be patient with it and realistic with my research goals.

The other thing about flexibility/side jobs is that they are awesome when you have them available to you. But if my PP associates decided to move I wouldn't find as good of a split around here, and I'd imagine that as my base salary rises it may be a little harder to justify summer teaching gigs.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yes. So far, my position.work distribution is exactly what I design it to be. Red tape is the name of the game though.

Welcome to my day. As JS knows, it isn't all puppy dogs and rainbows, but R1 AMC work opens a lot of doors that can be invaluable as an early career psychologist/neuropsychologist. Clinical work and research opportunities abound (particularly if you go multi-disc/dept), with the option to go to the administrative side if you have/want to develop that skill-set.

OP....if you go non-TT (my chosen path) at a top AMC, you can have many of the advantages/resources without the same level of pressure to 'beat the [tenure] clock'. Network effectively, carve out a niche, and do good work....and the experience can be downright enjoyable. Private practice is alluring because the $ can potentially be quite lucrative, but it is moderated by quite a few factors that have little to do with possessing quality clinical skills.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I get a bad reputation around here for being negative, but I wanted to share a recent personal situation regarding what it is like to be in private practice in terms of finances. Many applicants want a doctorate so that they can live the dream and do PP. There are many, many things I like about PP, however, there are huge liabilities. It is important to be aware of these as you determine your career path.

This past week I learned that i am experiencing a serious medical situation that will require me to be off work for almost 4 months. This was a totally random thing that could not have been predicted. Although the situation is expected to have a good outcome, 4 months of lost income will be devastating to my family. Mercifully, I was recently married and so now I have good medical benefits. Many of my colleagues in PP just risk it without benefits because they are expensive or they are ineligible due to (sometime minor) preexisting conditions. (Or a PP friend ended up unintentionally pregnant and it cost her $20k because private policies almost always exclude maternity).

People keep saying to me, "Can't you get unemployment? Or disability?" The answer is NO. To get unemployment, you need to be employed. In most PP situations you are not an employee, but a self-employed contractor. As I understand it, short-term disability is the same situation. If you don't have an employer paying into those benefits, you cannot access them when you are out of work. Makes sense, but it doesn't help me very much, right? I wonder if something like Aflac would have helped here, but it was never something I looked into and that ship has sailed at this point. The rest of you should, though.

My point is this: benefits are hugely important. If you want to go into PP, please think about whether you can deal with this liability.

Best,
Dr. E

P.S. Please refrain from criticizing or telling me what I could have done differently. I am in a rough situation and stressed enough as it is. I just wanted to post to help others.

 

[Pragma]

I do think with R1 positions that one typically has to decide how their bread is buttered up front. If you are going to go the research route, you need to stay competitive with funding usually in order to remain somewhere. If you go the clinical route, you may have to deal with noncompete agreements and time to do research may be less protected, and you may be limited to just using your convenience sample data. But in the right place with the right colleagues, I could see a flourishing career.

Personally I advocate for the R2 because I think it provides a balance of activities along with the security of tenure. If you are in a good department and you are reasonably productive, missing out on tenure is rare (at least at the places I am familiar with). I definitely am not concerned about the "tenure clock" where I am at, because as long as you are making gains in the trifecta (research, teaching, service) then you've got a great liklihood of making the cut (assuming people don't think you are a jerk)

 

[Pragma]

I get a bad reputation around here for being negative, but I wanted to share a recent personal situation regarding what it is like to be in private practice in terms of finances. Many applicants want a doctorate so that they can live the dream and do PP. There are many, many things I like about PP, however, there are huge liabilities. It is important to be aware of these as you determine your career path.

This past week I learned that i am experiencing a serious medical situation that will require me to be off work for almost 4 months. This was a totally random thing that could not have been predicted. Although the situation is expected to have a good outcome, 4 months of lost income will be devastating to my family. Mercifully, I was recently married and so now I have good medical benefits. Many of my colleagues in PP just risk it without benefits because they are expensive or they are ineligible due to (sometime minor) preexisting conditions. (Or a PP friend ended up unintentionally pregnant and it cost her $20k because private policies almost always exclude maternity).

People keep saying to me, "Can't you get unemployment? Or disability?" The answer is NO. To get unemployment, you need to be employed. In most PP situations you are not an employee, but a self-employed contractor. As I understand it, short-term disability is the same situation. If you don't have an employer paying into those benefits, you cannot access them when you are out of work. Makes sense, but it doesn't help me very much, right? I wonder if something like Aflac would have helped here, but it was never something I looked into and that ship has sailed at this point. The rest of you should, though.

My point is this: benefits are hugely important. If you want to go into PP, please think about whether you can deal with this liability.

Best,
Dr. E

P.S. Please refrain from criticizing or telling me what I could have done differently. I am in a rough situation and stressed enough as it is. I just wanted to post to help others.

Dr. E I am sorry to hear about your situation and am also glad you do have medical coverage. It was good of you to post, as hopefully there are some forms of disability insurance out there prospective PPs can research.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

That stinks, Dr. E; very sorry to hear about what you're having to struggle with.

I would definitely second your suggestion to place a good bit of importance on benefits, even if that means picking a job where the starting salary may not be quite as great. I opted to go without health insurance off-and-on through grad school and internship, and the peace of mind alone associated with having it while on postdoc is worth the premiums. Additionally, as you've pointed out, the employer contributions for our health benefits and taxes here are substantial, while the matching of retirement funds and the (very basic) free life insurance is also appreciated.

 

[PHD12]

My point is this: benefits are hugely important. If you want to go into PP, please think about whether you can deal with this liability.

Best,
Dr. E

.

Students often forget about benefits so I'm so glad you posted this for aspiring psychologists. I don't think anyone would judge you.

Benefits such as annual leave, sick leave, maternity leave, health insurance, disability benefits, life insurance, retirement benefits and unemployment insurance are literally worth hundreds of thousands of dollars over a 30 year career. They can easily amount to 50K or more per year if you also get some retirement/pension benefits or become ill and cannot work. Its not so easy to purchase private insurance and you can easily get kicked out of private insurance plans (It happens all the time when people get sick even though its illegal; I know cancer victims who had this experience). Obama's new health plan is supposed to prevent this type of unethical behavior, but who knows if it will be regulated and enforced.

In terms of getting disability benefits in the future (obv. it won't help now), I wonder if you could post this question on a private practice list serve? Since there are so many psychologists in private practice, I'm sure this issue has come up for many other psychologists before. I'd be curious to hear if there are options if one is self-employed.

 

[Sanman]

I get a bad reputation around here for being negative, but I wanted to share a recent personal situation regarding what it is like to be in private practice in terms of finances. Many applicants want a doctorate so that they can live the dream and do PP. There are many, many things I like about PP, however, there are huge liabilities. It is important to be aware of these as you determine your career path.

This past week I learned that i am experiencing a serious medical situation that will require me to be off work for almost 4 months. This was a totally random thing that could not have been predicted. Although the situation is expected to have a good outcome, 4 months of lost income will be devastating to my family. Mercifully, I was recently married and so now I have good medical benefits. Many of my colleagues in PP just risk it without benefits because they are expensive or they are ineligible due to (sometime minor) preexisting conditions. (Or a PP friend ended up unintentionally pregnant and it cost her $20k because private policies almost always exclude maternity).

People keep saying to me, "Can't you get unemployment? Or disability?" The answer is NO. To get unemployment, you need to be employed. In most PP situations you are not an employee, but a self-employed contractor. As I understand it, short-term disability is the same situation. If you don't have an employer paying into those benefits, you cannot access them when you are out of work. Makes sense, but it doesn't help me very much, right? I wonder if something like Aflac would have helped here, but it was never something I looked into and that ship has sailed at this point. The rest of you should, though.

My point is this: benefits are hugely important. If you want to go into PP, please think about whether you can deal with this liability.

Best,
Dr. E

P.S. Please refrain from criticizing or telling me what I could have done differently. I am in a rough situation and stressed enough as it is. I just wanted to post to help others.

Hey E,

I, for one, never considered you to be overly negative. You are simply living your reality as we all are. For every person that makes it to their dream gig, there are those for whom life has other plans and realities. I hope everything goes well for you and good luck. I know that there are relatively reasonable bridge plans currently in effect due to obamacare until 2014. I am on one, but it does take some looking. As for disability pay, I am not sure. However, it is a very good question.

 

[EmotRegulation]

Did the academic positions also offer any boosts or other incentives for licensure other than it just being expected and allowing you to keep your job? I know there are others here in academic positions (e.g., Pragma, erg), so feel free to reply as well regarding your employers.

Three are certainly no boosts being licensed in my R1 position, though like Pragma I can take cases on the side if I like (which I will probably do when I get around to finishing the licensure process).

The one benefit I did get was using my start up funds to pay for the EPPP and prep software...THAT felt like a huge financial burden I didn't have to deal with. One perk of the academic track!

 

[Pragma]

The one benefit I did get was using my start up funds to pay for the EPPP and prep software...THAT felt like a huge financial burden I didn't have to deal with. One perk of the academic track!

That's awesome!

 

[psycecream]

Did the academic positions also offer any boosts or other incentives for licensure other than it just being expected and allowing you to keep your job? I know there are others here in academic positions (e.g., Pragma, erg), so feel free to reply as well regarding your employers.

No bump in salary for getting licensed from the academic jobs. Some of them would have required it, some wouldn't have cared. It only would have mattered for the programs in which I would have been asked to supervise.

 

[psycecream]

Daaamn... But you're health psych, it looks like? Everyone says that specializing can really help. Can I ask how many publications you had and if you had external funding when you applied for academic jobs?

I'm in counseling/clinical. I have about five publications counting everything. No external funding--these are all basically teaching schools with low research requirements for tenure and promotion.

 

[psycecream]

I'm curious what the HMO was?

Also, somebody told me that psychologist whop sell their souls to work for insurance companies reviewing claims and assessment reports make mad dough. Anyone care to comment or explore the validity of that comment.

Kaiser Permanente.

 

[psycecream]

I also live in a high cost of living city. I would note that usually you have some range of options for where you live and how much commuting you do.

Presently I live in a highly desirable part of town. However, if I wasn't in a dual-income situation, I probably would have chosen to live elsewhere.

This is part of why I think you need to look at total compensation and opportunities. As I mentioned, my mid 60s salary (9 month) is augmented significantly by a) summer teaching (super easy and low time commitment if they aren't new preps), b) PP part time, and c) occasional consultation (e.g. workshops). In the end this makes for 50-60 hour weeks during the academic year and lighter hours in the summer. While I haven't finished a whole year yet, I'd estimate the take home at 90k, which definitely provides more options in a high cost of living area.

That said, I would never take 35k in NYC no matter how much side work I could find.

These are totally important considerations. We may have a similar set up. I chose the lowest salary that I was offered for 1) the location (reasonable cost of living, high quality of life) 2) the ability to have a small private practice for both financial and "life plan" reasons 3) good department 4) life/work balance. I'm not going through 5 years of hell to get tenure or a big grant, which I am grateful for everyday.

The HMO job would have been sweet financially but it would have been hard to get myself up in the morning. Now, I love coming to work and can't believe I get paid to do what I do.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm not going through 5 years of hell to get tenure or a big grant, which I am grateful for everyday.

5...I wish. it was 6-7 and up to 10 (1 place!) that is nuts.

 

[Pragma]

These are totally important considerations. We may have a similar set up. I chose the lowest salary that I was offered for 1) the location (reasonable cost of living, high quality of life) 2) the ability to have a small private practice for both financial and "life plan" reasons 3) good department 4) life/work balance. I'm not going through 5 years of hell to get tenure or a big grant, which I am grateful for everyday.

The HMO job would have been sweet financially but it would have been hard to get myself up in the morning. Now, I love coming to work and can't believe I get paid to do what I do.

I think we all get into the field for different reasons. For me, I liked the idea of having flexibility and not being a total slave to work. Granted we all are "slaves" to work in one way or another, but I love the independence of deciding when and where I put in a good portion of that work. I completely empathize with chosing less of a base salary for that independence and satisfaction with the work. That balance is great, particularly if you are family-oriented.

For me, I also liked the idea of having enough time to be a parent and not just have my kids at daycare 100% of the time (when I get around to having kids). The nice part of the 50-60 hours per week that I put in is that a good chunk can be done at home. I may sacrifice some evenings, but I'll be able to have other days at home being a parent.

My tenure process is like most places (go up year 6), but it really isn't too scary. But maybe in year 5 I'll feel differently

 

[erg923]

My university has also taken care (reimbursed) ALL my licensing costs. Over a thousand dollars...

 

[cara susanna]

I'm in counseling/clinical. I have about five publications counting everything. No external funding--these are all basically teaching schools with low research requirements for tenure and promotion.

Thanks for the info! Can I ask what your teaching experience was when you applied? I'm hoping to get that kind of position myself someday so it'd be good to have some idea of what would make me competitive.

 

[Rivi]

I get a bad reputation around here for being negative, but I wanted to share a recent personal situation regarding what it is like to be in private practice in terms of finances. Many applicants want a doctorate so that they can live the dream and do PP. There are many, many things I like about PP, however, there are huge liabilities. It is important to be aware of these as you determine your career path.

This past week I learned that i am experiencing a serious medical situation that will require me to be off work for almost 4 months. This was a totally random thing that could not have been predicted. Although the situation is expected to have a good outcome, 4 months of lost income will be devastating to my family. Mercifully, I was recently married and so now I have good medical benefits. Many of my colleagues in PP just risk it without benefits because they are expensive or they are ineligible due to (sometime minor) preexisting conditions. (Or a PP friend ended up unintentionally pregnant and it cost her $20k because private policies almost always exclude maternity).

People keep saying to me, "Can't you get unemployment? Or disability?" The answer is NO. To get unemployment, you need to be employed. In most PP situations you are not an employee, but a self-employed contractor. As I understand it, short-term disability is the same situation. If you don't have an employer paying into those benefits, you cannot access them when you are out of work. Makes sense, but it doesn't help me very much, right? I wonder if something like Aflac would have helped here, but it was never something I looked into and that ship has sailed at this point. The rest of you should, though.

My point is this: benefits are hugely important. If you want to go into PP, please think about whether you can deal with this liability.

Best,
Dr. E

P.S. Please refrain from criticizing or telling me what I could have done differently. I am in a rough situation and stressed enough as it is. I just wanted to post to help others.

I hope your medical condition improves, and wish you all the best!

 

[psycecream]

5...I wish. it was 6-7 and up to 10 (1 place!) that is nuts.

If year 6 is your application year (it is here), I think you're probably in a slightly different flavor of hell--being at the mercy of the whim of the review committee instead of the whim of a grant agency or journal editor.

In any case, I'm on the tenure track but not worried at all about getting tenure. Some people are occasionally denied here, but the standards are public and clear (thanks, in part, to a strong history of a faculty union and a culture of shared governance). A faculty member here should probably know with plenty of advance that tenure ain't happening.

 

[Pragma]

In any case, I'm on the tenure track but not worried at all about getting tenure. Some people are occasionally denied here, but the standards are public and clear (thanks, in part, to a strong history of a faculty union and a culture of shared governance). A faculty member here should probably know with plenty of advance that tenure ain't happening.

I feel like we work in the same place, even though I know we don't

 

[psycecream]

I think we all get into the field for different reasons. For me, I liked the idea of having flexibility and not being a total slave to work. Granted we all are "slaves" to work in one way or another, but I love the independence of deciding when and where I put in a good portion of that work. I completely empathize with chosing less of a base salary for that independence and satisfaction with the work. That balance is great, particularly if you are family-oriented.

For me, I also liked the idea of having enough time to be a parent and not just have my kids at daycare 100% of the time (when I get around to having kids). The nice part of the 50-60 hours per week that I put in is that a good chunk can be done at home. I may sacrifice some evenings, but I'll be able to have other days at home being a parent.

My tenure process is like most places (go up year 6), but it really isn't too scary. But maybe in year 5 I'll feel differently

I agree completely. Flexibility is key, a personally-important highlight of this line of work. I think that a TT position at a top research school means sacrificing that flexibility, at least in part (pre-tenure anyway). It's like the old joke about grad school "Yeah, we have flexibility--you can work those 80 hours whenever you want." I have three kids so I'm not trying to be married to my job. I am lucky that I got to have a job that I love, but there are four people who are higher on my priority list than work. I'm probably working 50 hours a week now, and enjoying 35 of them (If someone finds a way to make grading interesting, let me know).

 

[Pragma]

I'm probably working 50 hours a week now, and enjoying 35 of them (If someone finds a way to make grading interesting, let me know).

I do something like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fn_vAhu_Lw

 

[psycecream]

Thanks for the info! Can I ask what your teaching experience was when you applied? I'm hoping to get that kind of position myself someday so it'd be good to have some idea of what would make me competitive.

I was a TA (5 semesters) for "service" courses (the ones the department always needs taught but few want to teach: intro and methods), I taught my own discussion section of methods (including having my own syllabus, making my own lesson plans and assignments, etc), and I sought out an adjunct position at a smaller college in the same town as my grad school--in which I designed and taught a course from the ground up.

On internship I did outreach and some undergrad advising (the college counseling center where I did my internship was at a university with no clinical or counseling grad program, so the undergrads who wanted to pursue that path needed some extra help) and on my postdoc I did minor psycho-ed presentations.

I had less teaching experience than the average graduating PhD student because my program "protected" us from teaching too much, for a couple of reasons (trying to get us in to research jobs, and some things unique to the campus culture there including having professors teach classes instead of grad students) so I sought out extra with the adjunct position. The advice that I got was to design and teach at least one course completely on your own.

 

[psycecream]

I do something like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fn_vAhu_Lw

That was amazing.

 

[Pragma]

That was amazing.

This looks like an even more "interesting" method involving graduate students.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naKBPAtTjpk

Oh the joys of grading reliably...

 

[bcliff]

Not sure if this is useful information, but the PP where I work pays Bachelors level psychometrists $10/hr and Masters level psychometrists $11/hr (Both of those rates are without any benefits). Not to mention that most of the client face-to-face time and even evaluation report writing (using mostly a scripted report, but still) is done via the psychometrist staff.

 

[Pragma]

Not sure if this is useful information, but the PP where I work pays Bachelors level psychometrists $10/hr and Masters level psychometrists $11/hr (Both of those rates are without any benefits). Not to mention that most of the face-to-face time and even evaluation report writing (using mostly a scripted report, but still) with clients is done via the psychometrist staff.

We were talking about this recently, if I remember correctly. This shouldn't happen but it does.

As for most of the FTF time being with psychometrists, unfortunately that is very common. It is not how I was trained or practice, but many people operate that way.

$11 per hour with a master's obviously seems low (22K per year), although they'd be offering more if they couldn't find people to take those rates. I think it reflects the overall economy as well as the poor rates of reimbursement for 96119s. I've seen people working at institutions making more like 25-35K per year with benefits in those roles.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

In building on what Pragma mentioned above, at least a few of the psychometrists I've met who worked at AMCs also had other administrative-type duties (e.g., scheduling, billing) to the point that they were more office managers than pure psychometrists. I wouldn't at all be surprised to hear that those folks were making mid-40's.

Most of the pure psychometrists were individuals who were relatively fresh out of school and/or were looking to gain additional experience in preparation for applying to grad school, so (perhaps unfortunately) landing a $22k/year job wasn't quite as much a shock to their systems as it might've been for other folks. I believe they did at least have some semblance of benefits, though.

 

[PHD12]

Kaiser Permanente.

I heard that Kaiser maxes out at around 100-106K for experienced licensed psychologists. They pay less than the VA overall. This is hardly enough to "sell your soul," especially considering that they are mostly located in LA or bay area. If you are going to "sell your soul" at least do so for 200-300k.

 

[neuronic]

I heard that Kaiser maxes out at around 100-106K for experienced licensed psychologists. They pay less than the VA overall. This is hardly enough to "sell your soul," especially considering that they are mostly located in LA or bay area. If you are going to "sell your soul" at least do so for 200-300k.

I honestly would jump on either a KP or VA job in the Bay area. Maybe it does not seem like a lot, but it is livable in the East Bay, and 6 figure jobs in our profession do not come along that frequently.

106 for KP (120ish neuro) vs. 125K likely max out for the VA . Both have great vacation and retirement benefits. KP has the 80 rule (when age and time worked equals 80) you can retire with yearly pension of half your salary. That is, if pensions are still around when we retire...

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Not to completely derail the thread, but I don't know if any of my non-physician friends clear $100k/year right now, or anywhere relatively near it for the most part. Many of them work in IT and finance (although generally not the super big-buck stuff such as investment banking; those who do that are definitely "1%ers"), and have done so for 5-10 years at this point. Thus, we certainly aren't the only well-trained individuals having trouble finding six-figure salaries with regularity.

Not saying that I wouldn't mind us getting paid more on average, mind you...

 

[PHD12]

Not to completely derail the thread, but I don't know if any of my non-physician friends clear $100k/year right now, or anywhere relatively near it for the most part. Many of them work in IT and finance (although generally not the super big-buck stuff such as investment banking; those who do that are definitely "1%ers"), and have done so for 5-10 years at this point. Thus, we certainly aren't the only well-trained individuals having trouble finding six-figure salaries with regularity.

Not saying that I wouldn't mind us getting paid more on average, mind you...

100K is a lot of money, but we are talking about one of the most expensive regions of the country in a less than ideal position like Kaiser (e.g., caseloads of 200 patients who you see once every 1-2 months). This is the equivalent of working at a sweat shop law firm for lawyers. I would be very happy with 100K if it was a good position. VA and AMC positions seem better. 125 max for a VA position sounds pretty sweet overall with the benefits, especially if you are working 40 hours!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

100K is a lot of money, but we are talking about one of the most expensive regions of the country in a less than ideal position like Kaiser (e.g., caseloads of 200 patients who you see once every 1-2 months). This is the equivalent of working at a sweat shop law firm for lawyers. I would be very happy with 100K if it was a good position. VA and AMC positions seem better. 125 max for a VA position sounds pretty sweet overall with the benefits, especially if you are working 40 hours!

The work life/balance can definitely be an issue at some of those kind of places willing to pay $100k+. Add that on top of the ridiculous cost of living of a major city, and it feels like making <$50k in a more affordable city. I'd want no part of that.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

100K is a lot of money, but we are talking about one of the most expensive regions of the country in a less than ideal position like Kaiser (e.g., caseloads of 200 patients who you see once every 1-2 months). This is the equivalent of working at a sweat shop law firm for lawyers. I would be very happy with 100K if it was a good position. VA and AMC positions seem better. 125 max for a VA position sounds pretty sweet overall with the benefits, especially if you are working 40 hours!

Indeed, indeed; cost of living certainly factors in, as the majority of my friends also happen to live in very manageable locations in that respect (something I forgot to mention in my original post).

This is one of the main reasons I'm happy (and feel fortunate) that for whatever reason, I'm most content in some of the "less-desirable"/underserved/cheaper locales.

 

[bcliff]

I know I've seen a couple research positions available at the CDC that pay 6 figures. Not sure if psych doctorates are eligible or not though.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Indeed, indeed; cost of living certainly factors in, as the majority of my friends also happen to live in very manageable locations in that respect (something I forgot to mention in my original post).

This can make a huge difference. I have a far better lifestyle living in the Midwest making West Coast money than the other way around....I'm looking at you California!

 

[Ollie123]

I don't think 6 figure research gigs are that uncommon - especially at the higher end.

That said, its increasingly clear that the folks I've worked with are skewed heavily towards the upper end of the distribution, which may have something to do with my desire to pursue a similar path (R1/AMC research gigs). I've seen assistant profs making 80-100k (and some higher than that) with the senior folks ranging from ~150 on up to 500. Fortunately, I've also had some great models for work-life balances as they all seem like well-adjusted and happy people. Its certainly not a "9-5 with 2 hours for lunch" type of gig, but they don't seem any worse off than most other serious professionals I know with incomes in that range.

 

[PHD12]

This can make a huge difference. I have a far better lifestyle living in the Midwest making West Coast money than the other way around....I'm looking at you California!

Yeah, I was checking out the GS scale for VA Jobs. The difference in salary between the Midwest and California is literally 5,000-10,000 per year. Post-docs salaries are similar in CA and the Midwest. I don't think California makes sense for most psychologists.

 

[Sanman]

Not to completely derail the thread, but I don't know if any of my non-physician friends clear $100k/year right now, or anywhere relatively near it for the most part. Many of them work in IT and finance (although generally not the super big-buck stuff such as investment banking; those who do that are definitely "1%ers"), and have done so for 5-10 years at this point. Thus, we certainly aren't the only well-trained individuals having trouble finding six-figure salaries with regularity.

Not saying that I wouldn't mind us getting paid more on average, mind you...

I think that is the difference between being happy and not being happy. I know several friends making six figures in business and IT, but those people are in NYC. The difference is that you will not see such variability within regions. There are places to make that make 6 figures in any locale and there are places that may less as well.

Yeah, I was checking out the GS scale for VA Jobs. The difference in salary between the Midwest and California is literally 5,000-10,000 per year. Post-docs salaries are similar in CA and the Midwest. I don't think California makes sense for most psychologists.

Bingo! it ends up not being worth the trouble to live in the high cost of living area.