Will anyone actually discuss salary? Let's see...

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Just a quick FYI re: some of the salaries being discussed. Kaiser (at least in the Bay Area) doesn't max out at 100k, it actually starts at around 105k for licensed psychologists on 40-hr positions, maxes at around 145. That along with good benefits, pension, health plan, and 6 weeks off a year make it a pretty attractive gig. It's not for everyone (I left!) but there is much to like about it particularly if you enjoy running groups, teaching psyched, and being involved in training. I'm less familiar with the pay scale at the VA but from people I know there it's roughly similar.

As for living in a CA versus a lower cost of living location, it's definitely a personal choice. For me, I couldn't dream of living anywhere but California...nothing even compares as far as I'm concerned. But to each his own!

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For some reason, it seems taboo to discuss salary in our field. My professors and supervisors to date just avoid the discussion or respond with vague answers. I know what the Department of Labor statistics show, but I'm curious to hear from new graduates (within 5 years) about salaries in the field.

I'll post mine up, just because it's such an anomaly.

My net pay for next year should be just north of: $105,000.00, I am currently 4 months post internship. I am working in Guam (cost of living is high) and assumes that I will be licensed this year.
 
100K is a lot of money, but we are talking about one of the most expensive regions of the country in a less than ideal position like Kaiser (e.g., caseloads of 200 patients who you see once every 1-2 months). This is the equivalent of working at a sweat shop law firm for lawyers. I would be very happy with 100K if it was a good position. VA and AMC positions seem better. 125 max for a VA position sounds pretty sweet overall with the benefits, especially if you are working 40 hours!

Kaiser doesn't max out at 105. Step-based raises stop somewhere around 135k for clinical staff, but of course management positions don't have a similar cap. Everybody still gets cost of living increases even after they "max out." And the union for psychologists in Kaiser is reasonably strong so contracts are often improved when they expire.

Yes, you do have large caseloads (as many as 7-9 intakes/week, plus groups) and you really can't see clients every week. But if you're okay with that, life/work balance is actually not a problem at all because you are only working 40 hours, generally in a flexible way (4 days of 10 hours/week is very common). In that way it is not like a sweatshop lawfirm that demands crazy hours.
 
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Is there a consensus for what prescribing or medical psychologists can earn..? In any domain really (i.e. PP; VA; AMC; etc.)

I've heard upwards of 180k in some areas, but I didn't know if there was any non-anecdotal evidence to support this.
 
Is there a consensus for what prescribing or medical psychologists can earn..? In any domain really (i.e. PP; VA; AMC; etc.)

I've heard upwards of 180k in some areas, but I didn't know if there was any non-anecdotal evidence to support this.

I am a phd, mp in private practice and now with some contract work with the dept of defense. I gross $150 an hour at the dept of defense and gross around $240 an hour on the outside. I am booked 4 months out and could probably book myself 2 years out if I wanted (but it woulndt be right to the patient
 
Kaiser doesn't max out at 105. Step-based raises stop somewhere around 135k for clinical staff, but of course management positions don't have a similar cap. Everybody still gets cost of living increases even after they "max out." And the union for psychologists in Kaiser is reasonably strong so contracts are often improved when they expire.

Yes, you do have large caseloads (as many as 7-9 intakes/week, plus groups) and you really can't see clients every week. But if you're okay with that, life/work balance is actually not a problem at all because you are only working 40 hours, generally in a flexible way (4 days of 10 hours/week is very common). In that way it is not like a sweatshop lawfirm that demands crazy hours.

Thanks for the update. I guess it is higher in the bay area to adjust for cost of living. Its not a bad deal if you don't mind providing group therapy, psychoeducation, and crisis management (since you can't see patients often). However, with 7-9 intakes per week, your case load is growing exponentially. Its not like you are discharging that number of patients per week. Theoretically, you can build to 350 cases after 1 year, although you are probably not seeing most of them. Sounds pretty stressful, although at least they do compensate well.
 
Yeah, I was checking out the GS scale for VA Jobs. The difference in salary between the Midwest and California is literally 5,000-10,000 per year. Post-docs salaries are similar in CA and the Midwest. I don't think California makes sense for most psychologists.

I'm making over 100K in a very high cost of living area, but I'm living in the outskirts of that particular area (in a relatively rural, lower-cost-of-living-corner), and I live near my parents, I work barely 40 hours a week, and I think I've personally hit the jackpot for the kind of flexibility of hours and relative workload I get here. Hard to see how I could have done better at this point in my career.

Yes, my money would go further if I lived in the midwest somewhere and the public schools out here suck (but don't they everywhere?) - but I think relatively speaking I've done pretty well.
 
Just thought that people might be interested to know that with the advent of the new CPT codes this year, almost all major insurance companies shaved a few dollars off each session's reimbursement. While my friends who are accountants an computer programmers etc. get raises and cost of living increases, PP psychologists are getting yearly decreases.

Of course, this decrease is something that is bad for PP folks immediately, but I'm sure it will be reflected in salaried clinician positions over time.

The future of the profession seems pretty bleak from where I sit.

Dr. E
 
Just thought that people might be interested to know that with the advent of the new CPT codes this year, almost all major insurance companies shaved a few dollars off each session's reimbursement. While my friends who are accountants an computer programmers etc. get raises and cost of living increases, PP psychologists are getting yearly decreases.

Of course, this decrease is something that is bad for PP folks immediately, but I'm sure it will be reflected in salaried clinician positions over time.

The future of the profession seems pretty bleak from where I sit.

Dr. E

+1. With few exceptions, most of the licensed psychologists I know who are doing 100% clinical work seem to have very low salaries around 50-75K. The people on this forum are more the anomaly since several people have VA/DOD/Military jobs (these are the highest paying clinical positions) and research/academic positions with PP to supplement. The salaries i've seen are more in line with salary surveys for psychologists. I have colleagues and friends from good, funded programs with very low salaries because they wanted clinical careers.
 
Some food for thought...

Compared to 2000, the adjusted reimbursement rates (in comparable dollars factoring in inflation) are down 20% or more...depending on the CPT code. Some are 50% or more, so those billing codes are avoided. Straight insurance reimbursements are a rough way to make a living as a psychologist. The delay in reimbursement, % of paid full claims, reduced reimbursements, lack of adjustment for inflation, and overly cumbersome (by design) approval system for pre-authorization all hack away at the actual earnings of a psychologist. Pre-auth issues are usually carve-out issues (mental health v medical coverage), and the groups play hot potato w your request.

Most/all state psych associations have more info about the above info. It is a huge cluster, and the vast majority of clinicians don't know enough about these issues.
 
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PHD12...I 100% agree. I think the "average" psychologist is not well represented in these #'s. I try and provide a caveat whenever I talk $ bc there is quite a range in what is out there. For instance, some of the college counseling positions i see advertised have salaries more in line w. average post-doc pay. Scary low. On the other end, I know my situation is not typical, particularly compared to what therapy-focused clinicians may earn. Any prospective students who read this thread...the $100k+ salaries are the exception and not the rule.
 
PHD12...I 100% agree. I think the "average" psychologist is not well represented in these #'s. I try and provide a caveat whenever I talk $ bc there is quite a range in what is out there. For instance, some of the college counseling positions i see advertised have salaries more in line w. average post-doc pay. Scary low. On the other end, I know my situation is not typical, particularly compared to what therapy-focused clinicians may earn. Any prospective students who read this thread...the $100k+ salaries are the exception and not the rule.

I think that behooves future psychologists to keep this in immediate perspective when they are applying to schools. Even if you don't land a VA or research gig and get to that 100K+ sweet spot, you're in much better shape to weather economic difficulties if you graduate from a funded program with little or no debt, and income-contingent repayment programs are absolutely not a panacea.

Still, it's nice to hear that I'm exceptional. My mom always said I was a special little snowflake. :laugh:
 
Well, $100k is not the average for clinical or research positions. The most recent APA surveys had $87k for clinical position averages and $79k for faculty positions. Looking at the data in more detail yields younger clinicians/researchers starting in the $60-70k range and working their way up to high five figures or low 6 figures. Making over $150k is rare in either circumstance. While $100k is not a given, it is hardly a huge rarity. Getting a VA position or similar is not exactly unheard of. Neither is getting a good AMC or reseach position. Some stagnate in the middle five figures and others make it up the ladder. Remember, counseling center positions are generally 9-10 mth contracts.. It is what it is and the likelihood is that you will end up in that upper five figure/lower six figure area.
 
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Well, $100k is not the average for clinical or research positions. The most recent APA surveys had $87k for clinical position averages and $79k for faculty positions. Looking at the data in more detail yields younger clinicians/researchers starting in the $60-70k range and working their way up to high five figures or low 6 figures. Making over $150k is rare in either circumstance. While $100k is not a given, it is hardly a huge rarity. Getting a VA position or similar is not exactly unheard of. Neither is getting a good AMC or reseach position. Some stagnate in the middle five figures and others make it up the ladder. Remember, counseling center positions are generally 9-10 mth contracts.. It is what it is and the likelihood is that you will end up in that upper five figure/lower six figure area.

Agreed, but I'd say that some folks like T4C who start out at 6 figures right out of postdoc might represent "outliers" :)

I agree that 6 figures is attainable, but usually not until mid-career. But as we've noted here, some of it depends on how much you want to work. For example, it would be possible for me to hit 6 figures right away if I really pushed myself with side PP work. But I don't want to do that and ruin the work/life balance I've got.
 
Well, $100k is not the average for clinical or research positions. The most recent APA surveys had $87k for clinical position averages and $79k for faculty positions. Looking at the data in more detail yields younger clinicians/researchers starting in the $60-70k range and working their way up to high five figures or low 6 figures. Making over $150k is rare in either circumstance. While $100k is not a given, it is hardly a huge rarity. Getting a VA position or similar is not exactly unheard of. Neither is getting a good AMC or reseach position. Some stagnate in the middle five figures and others make it up the ladder. Remember, counseling center positions are generally 9-10 mth contracts.. It is what it is and the likelihood is that you will end up in that upper five figure/lower six figure area.

The idea of "working your way up" only applies to some clinical positions. Private practice is an area without potential for growth unless you start doing something different--- you can get other psychologists working for you, do fancy consulting gigs, or stop accepting insurance once you make a name for yourself. In my practice, even when I was still unlicensed, I was making the a same as the guy with 30 yrs experience.

If you feel you must get a doctorate and you must have a clinical career, position yourself to get in with th VA or another medical setting.

Dr. E
 
The idea of "working your way up" only applies to some clinical positions. Private practice is an area without potential for growth unless you start doing something different--- you can get other psychologists working for you, do fancy consulting gigs, or stop accepting insurance once you make a name for yourself. In my practice, even when I was still unlicensed, I was making the a same as the guy with 30 yrs experience.

If you feel you must get a doctorate and you must have a clinical career, position yourself to get in with th VA or another medical setting.

Dr. E

To me, those are all ways of working your way up. If you have not made a name for yourself, carved out your own practice, or have people working under you after 30 yrs of private practice, you are staying stagnant, That is how you make more money just like in any other career. Most physicians don't make more money by doing the same thing year in and year out, Most of the ones I know respond to market changes. That often means having mid levels work for them or seeking out higher paying clientele.
 
To me, those are all ways of working your way up. If you have not made a name for yourself, carved out your own practice, or have people working under you after 30 yrs of private practice, you are staying stagnant, That is how you make more money just like in any other career. Most physicians don't make more money by doing the same thing year in and year out, Most of the ones I know respond to market changes. That often means having mid levels work for them or seeking out higher paying clientele.

What percentage of private practitioners are in the group of psychologists who have found one of these ways to make more money? I don't know about where you live, but the vast majority of the PP psychologists with 30+ yrs of experience that I know are still doing straight PP. I will add that they are often working into their 70's because they don't have enough to retire.

I agree with you to some extent, but I also would point out that most ways for "advancement" in our field have more to do with business skill than clinical skill. Some of the worst clinicians I know are making money hand over fist by essentially exploiting other psychologists. It is sad that what sets you ahead as a psychologist is something unrelated to our training.

All I know is that my dad was an engineer. He got promotions and yearly raises for being a good engineer. He retired at 58 and lives comfortably. Sounds like a much better gig than PP to me.

Dr. E
 
What percentage of private practitioners are in the group of psychologists who have found one of these ways to make more money? I don't know about where you live, but the vast majority of the PP psychologists with 30+ yrs of experience that I know are still doing straight PP. I will add that they are often working into their 70's because they don't have enough to retire.

I agree with you to some extent, but I also would point out that most ways for "advancement" in our field have more to do with business skill than clinical skill. Some of the worst clinicians I know are making money hand over fist by essentially exploiting other psychologists. It is sad that what sets you ahead as a psychologist is something unrelated to our training.

All I know is that my dad was an engineer. He got promotions and yearly raises for being a good engineer. He retired at 58 and lives comfortably. Sounds like a much better gig than PP to me.

Dr. E

Most PP psychologists I know with that much experience are in cash practices, supervising other clinicians, or in administrative capacities with PP on the side (my friends father does this). The ones that are not doing any of these are ones that really saw their career of secondary importance to other things (family time, other businesses, etc). However, I am in a high cost of living area in the Northeast. No one really opts to stay here without making good money. At the very least, they are getting a steady clientele from only the highest reimbursing insurers.

I absolutely agree that good business skills have more to do with making money than the quality of the clinician. However, that is the way the system is set up and something that must be . It might mean more group treatment, and few weekly clients as others have mentioned about the VA. I think that one has to figure out how to be a good clinician in an ever-changing environment rather than clinging to old ways of practice and losing money. If money were not important, we could all jump into CMHCs seeing medicaid pts all day. Most of my colleagues are newly licensed within 1-5 yrs and make $70k+, but none are just stopping there. We all know that our current positions are simply a jumping off point while we find better positions for the long term. I work in the same type of PP setup as you part-time and even with a better split and likely a partnership offer after license, I don't see it as my best long-term opportunity. Then again, I would eventually like to supervise, teach/provide psycho ed/ in service and end up in some sort of administrative capacity in a program rather than do pp (While I like seeing pts, I will burn out if therapy is all that I do all day).

As for your father... there were a lot of positions in many fields that led to a comfortable life. A psychologist his age could have walked into a VA or academic position much more easily and retired in a similar fashion than could today. A friend of mine has a father that is tenured and was head of the dept at a community college with only an M.S. degree (in a science field) and retired in a similar fashion. Try doing that today.
 
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PHD12...I 100% agree. I think the "average" psychologist is not well represented in these #'s. I try and provide a caveat whenever I talk $ bc there is quite a range in what is out there. For instance, some of the college counseling positions i see advertised have salaries more in line w. average post-doc pay. Scary low. On the other end, I know my situation is not typical, particularly compared to what therapy-focused clinicians may earn. Any prospective students who read this thread...the $100k+ salaries are the exception and not the rule.

I think this definitely bears repeating!!!

Any prospective students who read this thread...the $100k+ salaries are the exception and not the rule.

You could get a very high salary right out of the gate, but you need to plan way in advance and have all the stars align. On top of that you might have to make some sacrifices to achieve that goal.
 
Sanman,

I'm glad you have found such happiness and satisfaction in the field. I wish I could say the same. It feels like this career is a battle from beginning to end. Always fighting to get in to school, get an internship, get a postdoc, trying to find a job that will pay the bills, trying to find some scheme to make more money. I'm tired of fighting so hard. Yeah, yeah I get that that is how many careers are. I always thought my career was my priority and it would be okay to kill myself my whole life for my job. Turns out it isn't. I just want a job that I can work 40 hours a week and pay my bills and enjoy my life. It seems awfully hard to do that here.

I feel really sorry for the starry-eyed college kids who dream of getting into PP. PP is probably the worst way to be a psychologist.

Dr. E
 
I dunno, I know people in PP who are living comfortably. I think it depends on the PP that you join.
 
Sanman,

I'm glad you have found such happiness and satisfaction in the field. I wish I could say the same. It feels like this career is a battle from beginning to end. Always fighting to get in to school, get an internship, get a postdoc, trying to find a job that will pay the bills, trying to find some scheme to make more money. I'm tired of fighting so hard. Yeah, yeah I get that that is how many careers are. I always thought my career was my priority and it would be okay to kill myself my whole life for my job. Turns out it isn't. I just want a job that I can work 40 hours a week and pay my bills and enjoy my life. It seems awfully hard to do that here.

I feel really sorry for the starry-eyed college kids who dream of getting into PP. PP is probably the worst way to be a psychologist.

Dr. E

Well, I have my share of complaints about the field, but I do not think it is the worst shape ever (nor the best, somewhere in the middle). However, I never dreamed of PP and agree that full-time PP can be a grind compared to even salary positions. To me, PP is best left as cash only and a part-time supplement. However, working for someone else in PP seems like the worst of both worlds. Limits on autonomy without the benefits of a salary position. If I recall you work with children and families and make in the $50k range licensed. It also is not what you want to do. My personal goals are the VA or something comparable. However, $70-80k working in a nursing home would not be the end of the world to me. If I were in your position, I would be frustrated and unhappy as well. Then again, I am fine with a number of positions that people here refer to as selling your soul. I, like you, prefer family time and being able to just go home at the end of the day.
 
Well, I have my share of complaints about the field, but I do not think it is the worst shape ever (nor the best, somewhere in the middle). However, I never dreamed of PP and agree that full-time PP can be a grind compared to even salary positions. To me, PP is best left as cash only and a part-time supplement. However, working for someone else in PP seems like the worst of both worlds. Limits on autonomy without the benefits of a salary position. If I recall you work with children and families and make in the $50k range licensed. It also is not what you want to do. My personal goals are the VA or something comparable. However, $70-80k working in a nursing home would not be the end of the world to me. If I were in your position, I would be frustrated and unhappy as well. Then again, I am fine with a number of positions that people here refer to as selling your soul. I, like you, prefer family time and being able to just go home at the end of the day.

Yeah, that is my set up. I see adults too, though. To be fair there are two positives that keep me in the practice that I'm in: constant stream of clients (I could see 50 a week if I wanted) and someone to do my billing. When I have to go out for medical reasons for 4 months, I will likely lose a significant chunk of my caseload, but they will be easily replaced because of my affiliation with this practice. Unless I can find a good salaried gig, I will likely go out on my own in a year or two. That will be better in some ways, but I will miss the security of the stead flow of clients.

The work itself can be enjoyable. If my income were a secondary and non-essential income in our household, I would fret a lot less.

I just really want people to research this before they go into it. I didn't start out wanting to be a clinician and I think that I would have made different career choices if I knew that I would end up as a clinician.

I will give you that I am more negative this week than usual. Being out of work for 4 months is scaring the hell out of me (in addition to the circumstances that are prompting the absence).

Best,
Dr. E
 
a phd physchologist who practices privately that I know of charges 150 dollars for 50 minute psychotherapy.

Sees 20-25 patients a week. This ends up amount to 150-180K. Sole expense is rent. Pretty good money.
 
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a phd physchologist who practices privately that I know of charges 150 dollars for 50 minute psychotherapy.

Sees 20-25 patients a week. This ends up amount to 150-180K. Sole expense is rent. Pretty good money.

I can almost guarantee this is nowhere near the entire picture. I think the problems Doctor Eliza is talking about have their origins in quips like this--anectodotal assumptions about what someone makes based on what they charge. I'm sorry, but it's naive. More evidence that psychology students really don't know what the business of private practice is all about.
 
I can almost guarantee this is nowhere near the entire picture. I think the problems Doctor Eliza is talking about have their origins in quips like this--anectodotal assumptions about what someone makes based on what they charge. I'm sorry, but it's naive. More evidence that psychology students really don't know what the business of private practice is all about.

Agreed ^

On paper, the PP I work for charges $150/hour for testing & therapy, and is booked solid for the next several months, so a quick calculation (150*40*4*12=$288,800/year) would make his practice seem lucrative; however, the vast majority of our clients are insured by Medicaid. Suffice it to say that Medicaid reimburses over $100 below our typical $150/hour rate, and it's sad because in order to turn any kind of a profit, our caseload is outrageous. Not only is there a 3-6 month wait for initial consults, but after that it take's roughly another 2-3 months to get the precertification done, which often includes over half of the testing requested being denied. Granted that we are involved in a number of unique contracts, and we see a number of clients for forensic evaluations, which we often charge over $500 for a 2-4 hour visit, but these visits are the exception and not the rule. Furthermore, many pre psych students are under the impression that full time PP work includes being paid for a full 40 hours of work per week, when as anyone who has worked in a PP knows, there is so much behind the scenes work being done, that a doc wanting to spend no more than 40 hours a week in the office would be lucky to get 30 hours of actual billable time done per week, depending on how much he's willing to spend on administrative staff to handle his scheduling, billing, testing, general management, etc.

The doc I work for has 3 other docs (1 licensed, 2 unlicensed) under him and a psychometrist to administer his testing, so the actual FTF time with the doc is minimal. I had a client this morning complaining because he met with the doc for 15 minutes 6 months ago and is just now getting his evaluation done, but this is the reality we live in. Additionally, our office has 2 secretaries (one does front end work/other does billing), a practice manager, and a 3rd party to handle issues with insurance, so really whatever money comes in our office per hour, a large chunk of that is going out to compensate the office staff.

I had originally thought that PP was for me, but the more time I spend here, the more I realize that I miss working in a research environment and would probably enjoy academia as well. The doc I work for is much more business minded than practice minded, and the more I've learned about his practices, the more I've started to question the ethics of the field. Current insurance reimbursement rates make it difficult to truly have a patient's best interest at heart especially when your caseload is where our's is. I think it's crucial for all psych students to see what it's like to work in a lab AND a PP on a full time basis before deciding what they actually want to do with their doctoral degree.
 
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The only way I can see the $150 cash (not dealing with insurance at all) per hour situation working is if you are very well established and have a huge referral base. Let's just say it would be unlikely that you'd get that many right away, and even if you did, it would be hard to keep them all.

Then you still have rent and taxes, maintaining records, etc etc...
 
Yeah, not to mention that commercial rents (anywhere a client would want to go) can be outrageous. Plus, anyone making dough in PP is going to WANT to have expenses, because you don't want to pay taxes on 6 figures of business income. It's much more complicated than having $100k in cash piling up in your pocket. Unfortunately, academia is not well suited to teach students about these realities.
 
We recently downsized office space and cut our monthly rent in half. Judging from what I can tell about the primary doc at the practice, he seems to be doing pretty well for himself, but like I said, a lot about our office seems to be pushing the envelope of what I feel is good practice.

I still enjoy PP work, but in the future, I see myself doing primarily research work while possibly serving as an adjunct faculty member teaching a class or two and seeing clients on the side either out of my home or out of a preexisting practice maybe a 60% research; 20% PP; 20% academics split, but this will likely change once I get into grad school
 
I can almost guarantee this is nowhere near the entire picture. I think the problems Doctor Eliza is talking about have their origins in quips like this--anectodotal assumptions about what someone makes based on what they charge. I'm sorry, but it's naive. More evidence that psychology students really don't know what the business of private practice is all about.

Completely agree with what everyone is saying. Plus, psychologists who charge $150 always have low-cost slots because they can generally never get a full practice with this fee. Usually they are really charging between $80-$150, plus there are no shows and cancellations each week (10-20% of the caseload) and rent is $3,000 per month in very expensive cities (NYC). Also, everyone I know in private practice has informed me that many months of the year are incredibly slow, including November, December and summer months. 20 cash paying patients can easily turn into 10 patients on certain weeks/months of the year. Its not stable or rosy.
 
a phd physchologist who practices privately that I know of charges 150 dollars for 50 minute psychotherapy.

Sees 20-25 patients a week. This ends up amount to 150-180K. Sole expense is rent. Pretty good money.

I think previous comments addressed this as well, but I wanted to be clear because I think a number of students on this board don't entirely understand how insurance works. (Maybe you are describing someone who doesn't take insurance? It wasn't clear.)

When a psychologist charges $150 for a session, but signs a contact with an insurance company so that they can be "in network" they agree to take whatever rate the insurance company is willing to pay. In most cases, this is close to $70 (varies up or down based on region, market saturation, individual insurer). The vast majority of clients are unwilling to go out of network or out of pocket for therapy. Clients willing to pay full fee are out there, but you will need something special (e.g., ability to use an rx pad) or to be super well-established and in a wealthy area to pull this off. Or have an additional source of income and be okay with seeing about 10 people a week.

Add to this if you are part of a group practice (rather than solo practice) that takes a cut of what you bring in. In my practice, the split is 50% (in exchange for a lot of referrals and office staff). That means I make $35 per client hour, roughly what my nail tech makes.

Forgive me if you already understood this. There have been many students on here who don't, so I thought I'd make the point.

Best,
Dr. E
 
When a psychologist charges $150 for a session, but signs a contact with an insurance company so that they can be "in network" they agree to take whatever rate the insurance company is willing to pay. In most cases, this is close to $70 (varies up or down based on region, market saturation, individual insurer). The vast majority of clients are unwilling to go out of network or out of pocket for therapy. Clients willing to pay full fee are out there, but you will need something special (e.g., ability to use an rx pad) or to be super well-established and in a wealthy area to pull this off.

Or, you have to be able to offer a service that insurance doesn't cover but is still in demand. Some therapists offer "coaching" (I'm not suggesting this is a good idea, but just what some do), sell books or educational materials, etc. Less directly related to therapy, psychologists who do assessment can offer non-covered (but still in demand) services like capacity assessments, etc.
 
Or, you have to be able to offer a service that insurance doesn't cover but is still in demand. Some therapists offer "coaching" (I'm not suggesting this is a good idea, but just what some do), sell books or educational materials, etc. Less directly related to therapy, psychologists who do assessment can offer non-covered (but still in demand) services like capacity assessments, etc.

I know psycho ed. assessment is hugely in demand, but is rarely covered by private insurance and is being provided less and less often by the schools themselves (in my experience, at least). Charging $150/hour of testing for a good 6-12 hours of psycho ed. testing can be a huge profit gearing endeavor, but it's important to match supply with demand and ensure that there isn't already a provider of these assessments in whatever community you're looking to live/work.
 
:laugh: I love people's ignorance of how insurance works.

BUT THEY BILLED HUNDREDS!!! They must be rollin in the mad doughs! :cool:

Um, yeah? I've seen hospital bills for 6+ figures. They didn't get paid even close to what they submitted. (And, no, their claims were not denied.)

Folks really should be required to take basic insurance/billing courses or something.
 
I know psycho ed. assessment is hugely in demand, but is rarely covered by private insurance and is being provided less and less often by the schools themselves (in my experience, at least). Charging $150/hour of testing for a good 6-12 hours of psycho ed. testing can be a huge profit gearing endeavor, but it's important to match supply with demand and ensure that there isn't already a provider of these assessments in whatever community you're looking to live/work.

There is indeed a demand in this area, but the funding is rarely there. Schools often try to in-source the assessments (to their school psychologists), which is fine for "educational assessments", but not for "neuropsychological assessments." The latter is usually needed, but insurance companies will claim it is "educational" so they don't want to cover it. Many/most parents can't cover $32-4k+ for private pay, so alternative paths are sought. Sometimes a child is more quickly evaluated on other measures, given an IEP, and stuck in an alt. track within the district. Appropriately.....it depends who you ask. I admit to having a bias after working in multiple school systems and not being particularly impressed by their processes for evaluation. Some districts do a great job, others do not.

A niche practice in an upper-middle class or upper class community can do quite well, but expectations are high in those situations; parents can often be difficult to please after they pay $4k for their child to be tested. "Gifted" does not grow on trees. :laugh: A favorable contract with a school district can make assessment work worthwhile, but that requires business skills more than clinical skills. I considered doing some work in this area, though I'm weary of the hassles that come along with that type of work (e.g. non-billable time wasted on the phone w. parents, school staff, etc). I still might, depending on the numbers I pull together.
 
That means I make $35 per client hour, roughly what my nail tech makes.

Frankly, I think a reality check is in order for statements like this as well. I've seen you say this before. It's very misleading in exactly the same way. There's no way a nail tech is making $35.00 per hour for a full 40-hour week, and even if they are, they are most certainly not keeping all of that money. If they are lucky, and built up a practice where they could make that kind of money (and I don't see how that's possible--it's not like you have weekly clients who are paying that kind of money consistently so that you can take home $35.00/hour for 40 hours), please realize that they are in a dead-end profession with no mobility whatsoever AND they are doing very physical work that doesn't even touch on the strains involved in psychology. There's higher business expenses, too (all of the supplies). Doesn't add up at all.

I respectfully think you need to reconsider this comparison.
 
Frankly, I think a reality check is in order for statements like this as well. I've seen you say this before. It's very misleading in exactly the same way. There's no way a nail tech is making $35.00 per hour for a full 40-hour week, and even if they are, they are most certainly not keeping all of that money.

The salary can be the same though because the nail tech sees a large volume of clients. Licensed psychologist earning $35 per patient is only making about 35k per year, a similar salary to a lower income job.

I do agree with Dr. E in that the clinical field is pretty grim with few exceptions. Compared to other professional degrees, we have the lowest median salary of any field (lower than dentists, lawyers, MBA, NP, chiro, physical therapists, physicians). MBA graduates and lawyers have a median salary of 120K, despite all the drama that you hear online. Social workers and other mental health professionals are also poorly compensated.

I've thought about getting an additional graduate degree if I cannot make a 6 figure income down the road. However, its really tough to predict which field will be in demand in the future, particularly given that technology is changing our world every year. Many professions are going to be eliminated in the future thanks to technological innovation. The best you can do is try to come up with creative and innovative ways to use the training and degree that you have. Many clinical psychologists publish books and/or add coaching and consulting services into their practices. You have to be willing to consider alternative roads that you never envisioned for yourself in graduate school. I also think that many of us have to let go of the idea that we are going to have a stable job working 40 hours per week and earning a nice income. Most of us will have to hussle and continue to re-invent ourselves in order to make a good living, particularly if you want to do clinical work.
 
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Sorry I meant psychologist in Dr. E's situation. If you are only getting $35 per patient and see 20 patients per week, its pretty close to a low income job like a manicurist.

Except that you are working 1/2 the time, putting in less physical work, and have significantly more upward mobility, job security, likelihood of benefits, and work options....not to mention not having to touch people (and their feet).
 
Except that you are working 1/2 the time, putting in less physical work, and have significantly more upward mobility, job security, likelihood of benefits, and work options....not to mention not having to touch people (and their feet).

I completely agree. There are many worse jobs out there, although most don't even require a college degree. I think the frustration stems from the fact that we go through so much training (7-8 years), which leads to higher expectations and more entitlement than someone without a college degree. The thinking goes something like this, "After going to a good PhD program and working my ass off for 8 years, I should be able to live comfortably and find a stable job with good benefits."
 
Frankly, I think a reality check is in order for statements like this as well. I've seen you say this before. It's very misleading in exactly the same way. There's no way a nail tech is making $35.00 per hour for a full 40-hour week, and even if they are, they are most certainly not keeping all of that money. If they are lucky, and built up a practice where they could make that kind of money (and I don't see how that's possible--it's not like you have weekly clients who are paying that kind of money consistently so that you can take home $35.00/hour for 40 hours), please realize that they are in a dead-end profession with no mobility whatsoever AND they are doing very physical work that doesn't even touch on the strains involved in psychology. There's higher business expenses, too (all of the supplies). Doesn't add up at all.

I respectfully think you need to reconsider this comparison.

I'll give you some of your points. And I will give you that the links you posted probably reflect the country at large. However, I am accurately commenting on my own situation. For most of the client hours I work, I get $35. When my nail lady does my nails, I hand over a check for $35. We are both independent contractors. We both have supply expenses, although mine are things like CEU's and books. I will give you that maybe there are other options and more opportunities for mobility as a psychologist, but at the same time (as was commented on previously) they are often very tied to business skill. Nail lady can open her own salon with her own employees or contractors and can open my own practice with the same.

Re: strains in psychology, yes that is the issue! I put in long days of emotionally draining work. Wouldn't it be nice to make chit chat all day instead?

I'm not saying that it is a career path that I would take. I am just saying that I feel pretty damn undervalued for the level of skill and training required in my work.

Dr. E
 
I'm not saying that it is a career path that I would take. I am just saying that I feel pretty damn undervalued for the level of skill and training required in my work.

You are clearly underpaid. If I was in your situation, I would be negotiating with the practice to get a more favorable split (suggesting a 70/30 split), especially considering the # of patients that you see there. I would also be working fewer hours there and starting my own practice in the meantime. I personally would rather spend 5-10 hours per week marketing and networking then giving away half of my pay check to the practice. I'm sure you already thought about these scenarios. It seems that you don't see yourself as having "business skills." I hope things work out for you and that your next position will be a more favorable one.
 
You are clearly underpaid. If I was in your situation, I would be negotiating with the practice to get a more favorable split (suggesting a 70/30 split), especially considering the # of patients that you see there. I would also be working fewer hours there and starting my own practice in the meantime. I personally would rather spend 5-10 hours per week marketing and networking then giving away half of my pay check to the practice. I'm sure you already thought about these scenarios. It seems that you don't see yourself as having "business skills." I hope things work out for you and that your next position will be a more favorable one.

If you ask for a better split, the practice owner has a clear-cut policy: "If you don't like it, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." He likes to convey to us that we are completely expendable and he hasn't even bothered to learn most of our names (and there really aren't THAT many of us!) I do good work for them but there is no recognition whatsoever.

The problem is that he has set the tone for the city and any practice that can offer a good referral stream has a similar split. There are others with better splits, but they don't provide many referrals, so that wouldn't make any sense. I will jump to my own PP someday. Other folks have left this practice and been successful on their own. I can't do it now due to the rest of my life getting in the way.

I know I sound bitter, but it is not like I am the only one out there in this situation. If opportunities were abundant, would this guy still have all of us working for him?

Dr. E
 
I don't understand working half the time...?

Most clinicians may bill half of the time (bc of no shows and paperwork), but they definitely work more than that. If someone can spend at least 75% of their time on billable hours that is pretty solid. I have seen 85-90%, but that takes a lot of planning and you have to think more like a lawyer (living life in 6min increments) than a clinician.
 
Most clinicians may bill half of the time (bc of no shows and paperwork), but they definitely work more than that. If someone can spend at least 75% of their time on billable hours that is pretty solid. I have seen 85-90%, but that takes a lot of planning and you have to think more like a lawyer (living life in 6min increments) than a clinician.

Yes, but I don't know if that is what the comment meant, because it was challenging me on the similarities between PP therapist and nail tech. That would be the same for both careers. In fact we often complain about no shows while she is doing my manicure. :)
 
If you ask for a better split, the practice owner has a clear-cut policy: "If you don't like it, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." He likes to convey to us that we are completely expendable and he hasn't even bothered to learn most of our names (and there really aren't THAT many of us!) I do good work for them but there is no recognition whatsoever.

The problem is that he has set the tone for the city and any practice that can offer a good referral stream has a similar split. There are others with better splits, but they don't provide many referrals, so that wouldn't make any sense. I will jump to my own PP someday. Other folks have left this practice and been successful on their own. I can't do it now due to the rest of my life getting in the way.

I know I sound bitter, but it is not like I am the only one out there in this situation. If opportunities were abundant, would this guy still have all of us working for him?

Dr. E

You don't sound bitter; you sound realistic! Many of the ppl posting don't even have their PhDs yet. I have been on both side of the mental health spectrum -- for two years as a V.A. staff psychologist and now as a prescribing psychologist (MP). I can tell you that there is NO comparison between the lifestyle, income, stress level, etc. between prescribing and testing/psychotherapy. I would never go back to the former. My colleagues who have jumped ship state the same.

The writing is on the wall for psychologists, even in the government. While at the VA, we were going through training on Patient Centered Medical Homes. During the presentation, the trainers enumerated each field's contribution to the team. They delineated a physician, a RN, a NP, a dietitian, and a BEHAVIORAL HEALTH PROVIDER (not a psychologist) The government is now even starting to blur the line between PhDs and LCSWs and LPCs.
 
For most of the client hours I work, I get $35. When my nail lady does my nails, I hand over a check for $35. We are both independent contractors.

Yeah, but your clients don't hand you a check for $35, so why would you think that the nail tech takes 100% of their gross?

I'm really with everyone on the complications involved in PP, so don't get me wrong. I understand that it's a struggle and I don't mean to belittle it at all. I just don't think the comparison to a nail tech is, in any way, justified. Clearly (clearly!) psychologists, even in private practice, have it WAY better than a nail tech, even if it is getting worse within the field, etc.
 
Yeah, but your clients don't hand you a check for $35, so why would you think that the nail tech takes 100% of their gross?

I'm really with everyone on the complications involved in PP, so don't get me wrong. I understand that it's a struggle and I don't mean to belittle it at all. I just don't think the comparison to a nail tech is, in any way, justified. Clearly (clearly!) psychologists, even in private practice, have it WAY better than a nail tech, even if it is getting worse within the field, etc.

I don't know her rent, true. However, there is no reception or billing staff involved, so I suspect it isn't quite so high as mine. Let's agree to disagree.
 
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