will we always be considered lower than "real" doctors?

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I always thought (and still do), the "real" doctors are people with PhD's.

I have 3 brothers; 1 is a PharmD, 1 is a MD (about to finish surgery residency), the other is a senior in college and contemplating about being a DMD or a MD. We all consider ourselves specialists in our own different fields, and discuss cases collaboratively. I actually learned a lot of things that overlaps dentistry with medicine and pharmacy this way.

My PharmD brother is not referred to as Dr. X when he is at work; by his colleagues or the patients he sees. He is as intellectual and knows his general medical sciences as the other 3. Before he decided to enter pharmacy, he was the strongest candidate of the bunch for med/dental school, and would have been a great physician or dentist, but instead chose to do something he was passionate about - the world of Rx.

The point is, do what you enjoy, and never proof anything to anyone just because they say or think so. Like Rube pointed out, we all function as a society. Do your part, and be grateful other people are doing something you need to survive, and would most likely be never good at.
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aphistis said:
Source, please, or I'm calling BS. You do realize, I hope, that physician salary surveys are equally underreported for the same reasons. Dentistry is a great profession; it doesn't need the truth stretched on its behalf.
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I think I got ahead of myself, but what I meant to say is that dentists make more than a lot of physician specialties, such as pediatrics, family dentistry, etc.; i'm not claiming that a general dentist would make more than a heart surgeon or anything like that.

But I agree that if money drives you towards this career, and is the main driver, you will not be happy. You have to have a genuine concern about the well-being of your patients. If you're not happy and excited to go to work, you won't make a good living.

I just think these kinds of posts about dentists being 'below' physicians is immature, and that all doctors should be respected equally with the realization that they have expertise in many different areas.
 
diplo123 said:
I think I got ahead of myself, but what I meant to say is that dentists make more than a lot of physician specialties, such as pediatrics, family dentistry, etc.; i'm not claiming that a general dentist would make more than a heart surgeon or anything like that.

But I agree that if money drives you towards this career, and is the main driver, you will not be happy. You have to have a genuine concern about the well-being of your patients. If you're not happy and excited to go to work, you won't make a good living.

I just think these kinds of posts about dentists being 'below' physicians is immature, and that all doctors should be respected equally with the realization that they have expertise in many different areas.
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if its all about making money save your college fees,buy a dunkin donuts,they make damn good money.
 
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aphistis said:
Reality check, boss. Dentists are not physicians.

If you respond to this by quoting Medicare reimbursement definitions, I claim preemptive victory.
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Haha, calm down. I didn't call dentists physicians...literally. It was a figure of speach in attempt to describe what dentists represent on a broader spectrum not to describe what actual degree they possess or what their literal title is. In case you haven't noticed, I don't care about titles - dentistry, much less medicine are really not that important to me in my life. As I said, dentistry is merely a means to help fulfill what I really want to do all while satisfying a few other passions along the way.
 
denticus said:
Haha, calm down. I didn't call dentists physicians...literally. It was a figure of speach in attempt to describe what dentists represent on a broader spectrum not to describe what actual degree they possess or what their literal title is. In case you haven't noticed, I don't care about titles - dentistry, much less medicine are really not that important to me in my life. As I said, dentistry is merely a means to help fulfill what I really want to do all while satisfying a few other passions along the way.
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I think "Figures of speech" are better left unread...and perhaps spoken.
 
KOM said:
I think "Figures of speech" are better left unread...and perhaps spoken.
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Your right. Figures of speech have been the bane of humanity since shakespearian times. All future figures of speech should be boycotted in attempt to rid the world of their vile nature, haha.
 
denticus said:
Your right. Figures of speech have been the bane of humanity since shakespearian times. All future figures of speech should be boycotted in attempt to rid the world of their vile nature, haha.
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geez get off denticus' back - he/she was just trying to make a point that didn't come out in the best way. why do so many people have a need to attack others for the smallest things? :rolleyes:

diplo123 said:
I just think these kinds of posts about dentists being 'below' physicians is immature
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wow diplo, i never saw it like that - you're like the first person EVER to say that on this post!
a little originality, people? :p
 
Consider yourself lucky that people don't ask you medical questions at parties and barbecues!

I'd rather be a dentist than an MD or DO. It seems like a great profession. Plus, you're unequivocally the experts in oral health. No one can question that. "I have a tooth problem. Should I go see a dentist, an internist, or an orthopedic surgeon?" Nope, you'll never hear that.
 
NatCh said:
Consider yourself lucky that people don't ask you medical questions at parties and barbecues!

I'd rather be a dentist than an MD or DO. It seems like a great profession. Plus, you're unequivocally the experts in oral health. No one can question that. "I have a tooth problem. Should I go see a dentist, an internist, or an orthopedic surgeon?" Nope, you'll never hear that.
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No, but I do get people who will pull back their gums and ask me what is this bump next to my tooth, what do you think can be done for this tooth, etc at barbecues or at church.
 
denticus said:
Your right. Figures of speech have been the bane of humanity since shakespearian times. All future figures of speech should be boycotted in attempt to rid the world of their vile nature, haha.
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:)
 
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aphistis said:
You didn't?


You must be employing some rather unorthodox definitions of idiomatic language.
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That's funny, because that's exactly what it was - an idiom. FYI, why the aggressive tone?
 
denticus said:
So, if I were a physician, would I not be able to have time for family, exploring the world, creating business empires, writing novels, playing the piano, running, and coaching? ABSOLUTELY NOT! However, I simply would not be able to spend the amount of time with these other passions to the degree that I will be able to enjoy with dentistry. I'd argue that most physicians are physicians because they love medicine and they really don't have any other passion as important to them as medicine is. Otherwise, you'll find an angry physician. On the flipside, many dentists (if they're anything like me) realize that dentistry is just one passion among many - all of which they will be able to satisfy in their lifetime; dentistry itself being a means for your passions not the fulfillment thereof. If not, then you have a dentist who just loves dentistry more then anything for other reasons. Maybe for the rigorous training of working with your hands. Which leads me to my second view of this issue
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Not all physicians sell their lives to Medicine. There are many 'family-friendly' specialties...

I would argue that if you have a passion for caring, medicine probably puts you in a better place to make a more meaningful difference in someone's life.

I could be mistaken, but in the USA there are many physicians who own their own businesses (private clinics, all elective operations, etc).
 
Contach said:
Not all physicians sell their lives to Medicine. There are many 'family-friendly' specialties...

I would argue that if you have a passion for caring, medicine probably puts you in a better place to make a more meaningful difference in someone's life.

I could be mistaken, but in the USA there are many physicians who own their own businesses (private clinics, all elective operations, etc).
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I don't doubt that Contach. You're absolutely right. However, whether medicine or dentistry would put you at a "better place to make a more meaningful difference in someones life" is debateble and at best, indeterminate. How do you measure a "meaningful difference in someone's life"? Whats more, by having more time to cater to my other passions, I will be able to provide a meaningful difference in peoples lives - but in different ways. Neither dentistry nor medicine represent the end all be all of providing a meaningful difference in the lives of others. In my life at least, denstistry represents a small fraction of the service I intend on bringing to my community and nation; this, completely outside the rhelm of science and health. Moreover, like I said before, service, science and health represent only a few among many other passions for life that I have. That said, dentistry and not medicine, will simply be able to provide me with more "me time" (and thus success in my eyes) to make provision for all the other passions I have. I'll repeat what I said earlier, this does not mean that a physician has no other passion or the time to cater to them. However, at the end of the day, a dentist and not a physician will have more time for these activities - that's just reality.
 
did you mean realm instead of rhelm? haha just playin...kinda
 
scottd said:
Actually, in the UK, dentists receive a Bachelor of Dental Surgery (BDS). So a dentist advertising himself as Dr. is false advertising. Doctors in the UK are referred to as Dr. while surgeons in the UK are referred to as Mr. (same as a dentist). Due to surgeons being referred to as Mr., Mr. is usually considered higher status than is Dr. in the medical context. In regard to this specific situation, many people are wondering why the dentist would "lower" his status by advertising himself as a Dr. instead of a Mr. (Surgeon). It's a strange system they have there.
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Again.. the title of your degree means nothing. Dentists AND doctors in the UK and elsewhere in the world receive "bachelors" degrees. Yet they are all allowed to use the title "Dr." if they want to. The BDS, and DDS degrees are viewed as equal. They are all simply a degree that allows you to practice dentistry... We all learn the same things regardless of what the way the university titles the degree (DMD, BDS, BDSc, DDS, Dr.MedDent, BDent, BChD, etc) ...Regardless of what your degree is called.. we all have the same scope and license to practice dentistry. Same goes with medical degrees (MBBS, MBChB, BMed, MDCM, Dr.Med, etc) .. a medical degree is a medical degree.
 
This was a lengthy argument, I actually took two days reading through every single thread. Well my two cents on the matter, do what makes you happy, if it's being a dentist then be a dentist, if it's being a physician then be a physician. IMO there is no need to bicker and argue over a simple matter as what a person's profession of choice is. If you love what you do then you should not be insecure in any way. I respect all dentists and all physicians, I feel they are two professions that are in the upper tier in terms of prestige. Both Dentists and Physicians are referred to as Dr. xyz so that's the bottom line.

P.S, just my opinion. Don't troll on my thread :smuggrin:
 
denticus said:
That's funny, because that's exactly what it was - an idiom. FYI, why the aggressive tone?
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Because you continue to insist that dentists are physicians. Dentists have plenty to be proud of in what they are, so it disappoints me to see so many dental students continuing to identify themselves as something they are not.
 
I don't care what people call me or will call me with my DDS and MD.....dentist, physician, doctor, oral surgeon, dentician.....I will be banking WAY more than 90% my MD classmates and laughing all the way to the bank!!!!:D
 
if they hate them let em hate and watch the money pile up
 
aphistis said:
Because you continue to insist that dentists are physicians. Dentists have plenty to be proud of in what they are, so it disappoints me to see so many dental students continuing to identify themselves as something they are not.
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If I say, "it's raining cats and dogs" that does't mean that it's literally raining cats and dogs. When I said, "a dentist is a physician who"...well, obviously a dentist is not literally a physician. Like I said, it was an idiom. I said that in attempt to asseble the argument of what makes dentists and physicians disparate, not the same. That said, the tone of our conversation is the result of misconception not interpretation. I hope you can understand why I said what I did.

As for you tiring "to see so many dental students continuing to identify themselves as something they are not" you should know that I do not fall into that category. I don't even identify myself as a dentist, much less a dental student. Who or what sets the standard for what I should identify myself to be? - the world? Well, I'm indifferent to what the world or society thinks is best or "proper" for me.
 
The other night while talking with my pre-md friend, the topic of dent. vs med came up....I told her that I would not want to be in her shoes when she was putting in crazy hours during residency and, ultimately, during her career. She responded that it didn't bother her since as a "real" doctor, she "will be making at least triple " what I will be making as a dentist or specialist....Needless to say I was extremely irritated at her ignorance. I will probably bring up this topic in ~5 years to see if she has a different opinion...:smuggrin:
 
ORLO said:
The other night while talking with my pre-md friend, the topic of dent. vs med came up....I told her that I would not want to be in her shoes when she was putting in crazy hours during residency and, ultimately, during her career. She responded that it didn't bother her since as a "real" doctor, she "will be making at least triple " what I will be making as a dentist or specialist....Needless to say I was extremely irritated at her ignorance. I will probably bring up this topic in ~5 years to see if she has a different opinion...:smuggrin:
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hahahahaha.. your PRE-med friend... HAHAHAHAHAHA :rofl:
 
I think a lot of you guys are mixing wealth with prestige. It usually goes together but should not be confused.

MDs are usually more prestigious than dentists as they should be. After all like you guys said, they get abused by HMOs, make night calls, work long shifts during residency, etc. However like aphitis said, who cares? I am a glorified pill counter in the eyes of the public but can care less what they think. You guys should feel the same considering that dentist is pretty prestigous in itself and in the back of your minds, get the better deal than MDs.

Lawyers are pretty prestigious in the public's mind but most lawyers have six figure debts and no employment. They end up working as waitresses in IHOP and chasing ambulances. MBA/bankers too now.
 
aphistis said:
Because you continue to insist that dentists are physicians. Dentists have plenty to be proud of in what they are, so it disappoints me to see so many dental students continuing to identify themselves as something they are not.
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
DrNush said:
ok so this is gonna be a pretty long post... i'm a part of a community where half the people are medical docs. and of course anytime we go to any of those community get-togethers or whatever, the physician parents of current med students are full of themselves acting like their kids are the shiz, and i happen to be the only dental student (out of CHOICE).

i'm getting more and more incensed as time goes on that whenever some medical issue comes up, everyone turns to the docs and then someone will decide to make a crack at me like "haha if we have any tooth problems we'll come to you." :wtf: what's up with that?

i used to think dentists have the same prestige as physicians, but now i feel we're considered "lower." no one seems to realize that we study the same subjects in the first 2 years - prob not to the same extent as in med school, but nevertheless the same subjects. and we're not second tier.. i got into both dental and medical, chose dental. but before anyone says anything, i realize that this may just be an issue in this specific community... 99% of physicians i've met are AWESOME.

i've actually never understood why dentistry is not just a residency after med school... just like dermatology etc..
has anyone else faced this kinda behavior or is it just me? :bang:

P.S.!!! i am editing this based on the responses to inform everyone that this is something i have experienced, and ask if i am alone in experiencing it, NOT to show disrespect or start world war III. so if u have any nasty comments and names rather than solid answers, please don't post here. thanks a bunch!
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My friend mentioned that in China you have to first go to medical school to become a dentist... but to be honest, yeah... it is true that some will always consider MDs to be higher in prestige than a DDS. This is just as some consider a DO to be of less prestige than an MD. At least we will be richer than many MDs :p I have this one thing to say... If you are doing something for the prestige (and I am not implying that you personally are concerned with this), you have to gain some self esteem. No one really cares if you are an MD or a DDS except for you (and for some, maybe your parents). Brush off disrespectful comments. While it wasn't always the case, I find it hysterical now when someone tells me that dentists are sadists or ask if I will end up committing suicide. Unlike many other professions, we will be scientists, artists, businesspeople AND still have time for a life. Who else can say that? Joke is on anyone who makes fun of our profession. Who cares?
 
shabu2 said:
I don't care what people call me or will call me with my DDS and MD.....dentist, physician, doctor, oral surgeon, dentician.....I will be banking WAY more than 90% my MD classmates and laughing all the way to the bank!!!!:D
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totally agree! You got the point....
 
Aznfarmerboi said:
I think a lot of you guys are mixing wealth with prestige. It usually goes together but should not be confused.

MDs are usually more prestigious than dentists as they should be. After all like you guys said, they get abused by HMOs, make night calls, work long shifts during residency, etc. However like aphitis said, who cares? I am a glorified pill counter in the eyes of the public but can care less what they think. You guys should feel the same considering that dentist is pretty prestigous in itself and in the back of your minds, get the better deal than MDs.

Lawyers are pretty prestigious in the public's mind but most lawyers have six figure debts and no employment. They end up working as waitresses in IHOP and chasing ambulances. MBA/bankers too now.
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Don't dentists also get abused by HMOs? Did anyone here actually research the dental fee schedules set forth by HMOs or DMOs?
 
mrlantern said:
Don't dentists also get abused by HMOs? Did anyone here actually research the dental fee schedules set forth by HMOs or DMOs?
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Managed care fee schedules only matter if you volunteer to be bound by them. Delta can reimburse $25 for a crown for all I care; that just means the patient will have to come up with the other $825.
 
ORLO said:
The other night while talking with my pre-md friend, the topic of dent. vs med came up....I told her that I would not want to be in her shoes when she was putting in crazy hours during residency and, ultimately, during her career. She responded that it didn't bother her since as a "real" doctor, she "will be making at least triple " what I will be making as a dentist or specialist....Needless to say I was extremely irritated at her ignorance. I will probably bring up this topic in ~5 years to see if she has a different opinion...:smuggrin:
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Sounds like somebody hasn't done her career research. ;) You might tell her the 1980's ended about twenty years ago.
 
If I could do it over again, I would definitely have chosen medicine.

You can put dentistry on a pedestal all you want. Incomes in medicine rely less on percentage on production. Medicine also has more high-paying salaried positions. ( > 200k/yr ) Show me salaried ( not production based ) positions in dentistry that are anywhere near $200k/yr and I might be convinced at little. You can argue that some dental positions come with a base salary but these are usually only from corporate offices and are only around ~100k/yr, far less than those of physicians.

Best of all, in medicine, you don't have to sell any fixed or removable pros that you know the patient will say no to, at least 75% of the time, because of finances. I would imagine that to happen a lot less in medicine.
Unless if you really know what a dentist is and what a dentist does, I wouldn't recommend anyone dentistry for financial purposes. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that a dentist can work 36 hrs/week ( or only as much as desired ) and take home 175k/yr. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I find this to represent the upper 25% of all practicing dentists. There are many hopeful pre-dents who talk about their dentist friend that is raking in $220k/yr after 1-2 yrs out of dental school. But they forget to take into account the dentist's classmates.

I would LOVE to switch to medicine. I would even do so right now if there's a medical school willing to accept me.
 
Hasn't this thread run its course yet?
No?
 
mrlantern said:
I would LOVE to switch to medicine. I would even do so right now if there's a medical school willing to accept me.
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Lol classic grass is greener syndrome. Unless if you really know what a med doc is and what a med doc does, I wouldn't recommend anyone medicine for financial purposes. You sir, are the biggest loser. Come back after you've finished med school and tell us all about how much you would rather be in medicine.

Edit: Crap sorry didn't realize I just fed the troll.
 
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Cold Front said:
I always thought (and still do), the "real" doctors are people with PhD's.

My PharmD brother is not referred to as Dr. X when he is at work; by his colleagues or the patients he sees.
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Americans are always preoccupied with the title 'doctor'. It seems like you don't think a job in the healthcare field is worth doing unless people use the word 'Dr' before your name, so you invented a thousand different doctorate degrees for you all to use. And then you argue which type of Dr is best, or the most "real" as you put it. I don't get it.

Your brother is a pharmacist. You don't need to rationalize his career decision with your comments about how he could have gone to medical school if he wanted to. Why did you feel the need to mention that? Of course he could have, and I'm sure you could too. In fact, you both still could! (I'm an old non-trad bound for medical school by the way)

Where I'm from surgeons lose the title 'doctor' when they finish their training. They become just plain 'Mr' or 'Ms'. It is seen as a badge of honour: they are confident and secure enough to not require a title. They are some of the most skilled and humble people I have ever met.

The word 'doctor' is just that, a word, nothing more. Don't make such a fuss over it :)
 
iloveDrStill said:
Americans are always preoccupied with the title 'doctor'. It seems like you don't think a job in the healthcare field is worth doing unless people use the word 'Dr' before your name, so you invented a thousand different doctorate degrees for you all to use. And then you argue which type of Dr is best, or the most "real" as you put it. I don't get it.

Your brother is a pharmacist. You don't need to rationalize his career decision with your comments about how he could have gone to medical school if he wanted to. Why did you feel the need to mention that? Of course he could have, and I'm sure you could too. In fact, you both still could! (I'm an old non-trad bound for medical school by the way)

Where I'm from surgeons lose the title 'doctor' when they finish their training. They become just plain 'Mr' or 'Ms'. It is seen as a badge of honour: they are confident and secure enough to not require a title. They are some of the most skilled and humble people I have ever met.

The word 'doctor' is just that, a word, nothing more. Don't make such a fuss over it :)
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arg! damn americans! ugh! haha you gotta be kidding.
 
My motives for becoming a dentist go far beyond monetary issues, but since the topic of salaries has come up, I'll admit it...your typical MD will make more money than your typical dentist...50-100k more is my reasonable guestimate. But your typical dentist also works 40 hours a week or less, while your typical MD works anywhere from 50-60 hours per week...sometimes more. A dentist working these same hours would see considerably more patients and would obviously make a much higher salary than the ADA statistics show. I have also seen statistics showing that dentists surpass MDs in hourly wages. This is why I feel that comparing MD to DMD/DDS salaries is like comparing apples and oranges. Still, to many people (including myself), part of the appeal of dentistry is having free time to spend with your family (or that new Z06:smuggrin:).
 
ORLO said:
My motives for becoming a dentist go far beyond monetary issues, but since the topic of salaries has come up, I'll admit it...your typical MD will make more money than your typical dentist...50-100k more is my reasonable guestimate. But your typical dentist also works 40 hours a week or less, while your typical MD works anywhere from 50-60 hours per week...sometimes more. A dentist working these same hours would see considerably more patients and would obviously make a much higher salary than the ADA statistics show. I have also seen statistics showing that dentists surpass MDs in hourly wages. This is why I feel that comparing MD to DMD/DDS salaries is like comparing apples and oranges. Still, to many people (including myself), part of the appeal of dentistry is having free time to spend with your family (or that new Z06:smuggrin:).
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splurge for the ZR1 bro :laugh:
 
lotexigeus said:
splurge for the ZR1 bro :laugh:
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When the time comes, I know I won't be able to say no...so I'm sure a ZR1 will be sitting in my garage someday.(My future wife is going to hate me)
 
mrlantern said:
If I could do it over again, I would definitely have chosen medicine.

You can put dentistry on a pedestal all you want. Incomes in medicine rely less on percentage on production. Medicine also has more high-paying salaried positions. ( > 200k/yr ) Show me salaried ( not production based ) positions in dentistry that are anywhere near $200k/yr and I might be convinced at little. You can argue that some dental positions come with a base salary but these are usually only from corporate offices and are only around ~100k/yr, far less than those of physicians.

Best of all, in medicine, you don't have to sell any fixed or removable pros that you know the patient will say no to, at least 75% of the time, because of finances. I would imagine that to happen a lot less in medicine.
Unless if you really know what a dentist is and what a dentist does, I wouldn't recommend anyone dentistry for financial purposes. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that a dentist can work 36 hrs/week ( or only as much as desired ) and take home 175k/yr. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I find this to represent the upper 25% of all practicing dentists. There are many hopeful pre-dents who talk about their dentist friend that is raking in $220k/yr after 1-2 yrs out of dental school. But they forget to take into account the dentist's classmates.

I would LOVE to switch to medicine. I would even do so right now if there's a medical school willing to accept me.
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Says the general dentist who took out $400k in student loans and looks for salaried positions in NYC in the biggest recession in half a century and quits his prior opportunities because they don't suit him. (Absolute worst possible scenario)

mrlantern said:
Show me salaried ( not production based ) positions in dentistry that are anywhere near $200k/yr and I might be convinced at little.
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Why don't you try ItsGavinC for starters? He just received several salaried offers a few months ago ranging from $200k-$380k straight out of residency.
 
NyCzPeter said:
Lol classic grass is greener syndrome. Unless if you really know what a med doc is and what a med doc does, I wouldn't recommend anyone medicine for financial purposes. You sir, are the biggest loser. Come back after you've finished med school and tell us all about how much you would rather be in medicine.

Edit: Crap sorry didn't realize I just fed the troll.

Stony Brook School of Dental Medicine Class of 2013
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Why did you edit some of your original comments?

I thought your original post was very intellectual and professional. Why don't you show your true empathic character by telling other what you said before?

Enjoy your college graduation and enrollment into dental school. I kind of miss being in school, having big dreams, and not having to worry about economic issues.
 
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