Would you take your dream job for less salary?

[psychacad]

Yep, in med school I lived off of $1200/mo and was fairly comfortable. Granted, I was not contributing to retirement or really socking any money away, but even an income of $35k/yr is very reasonable for individuals outside of the high COL cities for those not living a consumerist lifestyle. Throwing a family into the mix changes things, but $50-60k is still reasonable for raising a family in most areas.

Is it? Factor in health insurance, retirement, cost for buying a house, child care, saving for your kids' college education and 60k for a household is really peanuts. I was able to live fairly comfortably in residency on 70k, but I couldn't save much for a home or retirement...etc. I can't imagine how it is for families. Sure, the average quality of life in the US for a working family is probably better than the third world, but you're always one step away from financial ruin because how insecure the system is. It definitely is no cake walk and not comparable to middle class life in Western Europe. Of course the political system is almost completely divorced from the interests of working families, so you get 'promises' by the supposedly leftist party like "I won't raise taxes on anyone making less than 400k". LOL.

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[Stagg737]

Is it? Factor in health insurance, retirement, cost for buying a house, child care, saving for your kids' college education and 60k for a household is really peanuts. I was able to live fairly comfortably in residency on 70k, but I couldn't save much for a home or retirement...etc. I can't imagine how it is for families. Sure, the average quality of life in the US for a working family is probably better than the third world, but you're always one step away from financial ruin because how insecure the system is. It definitely is no cake walk and not comparable to middle class life in Western Europe. Of course the political system is almost completely divorced from the interests of working families, so you get 'promises' by the supposedly leftist party like "I won't raise taxes on anyone making less than 400k". LOL.

I think it is. I'm married with kids and could comfortably live off of $40k/year and provide a fairly comfortable lifestyle to our family (especially if wife was stay-at-home). That would leave $10-15k/year to put towards retirement and kids college funds. As Jules said, we have a very skewed view of "necessity" vs. luxury in the US and I think some first-world expectations of what qualifies as "comfortable" are ridiculous. Obviously this is not the case in high COL areas like NYC or SF, but for the majority of the country $60-70k should be more than enough for the average family of 4 to live off of comfortably. This is coming from someone who grew up in a high COL area in a family with an income in that $60-70k range with parents who could have paid for my UG and med school educations and still been comfortable for retirement if they wanted to.

I think that too many people are either too stupid about finances or have unreasonable definitions of "necessity" which creates financial burdens that are completely avoidable. I'm not saying that there is not a large percent of people who are legitimately struggling while acting responsibly. However, as someone who was able to afford living off of <$15k/yr for many years without really being frugal (this includes car payments, health/other insurance, rent, utilities, etc), I don't believe for a second that $60k/yr is inadequate to support the average family while having some savings for retirement. I do agree that there are certain aspects of our system which can lead to financial disaster too easily, but that was not the argument I was initially making.

 

[hebel]

I think it is. I'm married with kids and could comfortably live off of $40k/year and provide a fairly comfortable lifestyle to our family (especially if wife was stay-at-home). That would leave $10-15k/year to put towards retirement and kids college funds. As Jules said, we have a very skewed view of "necessity" vs. luxury in the US and I think some first-world expectations of what qualifies as "comfortable" are ridiculous. Obviously this is not the case in high COL areas like NYC or SF, but for the majority of the country $60-70k should be more than enough for the average family of 4 to live off of comfortably. This is coming from someone who grew up in a high COL area in a family with an income in that $60-70k range with parents who could have paid for my UG and med school educations and still been comfortable for retirement if they wanted to.

I think that too many people are either too stupid about finances or have unreasonable definitions of "necessity" which creates financial burdens that are completely avoidable. I'm not saying that there is not a large percent of people who are legitimately struggling while acting responsibly. However, as someone who was able to afford living off of <$15k/yr for many years without really being frugal (this includes car payments, health/other insurance, rent, utilities, etc), I don't believe for a second that $60k/yr is inadequate to support the average family while having some savings for retirement. I do agree that there are certain aspects of our system which can lead to financial disaster too easily, but that was not the argument I was initially making.

You're not at all obligated to, but could you post your monthly budget?

Or DM me if this is too off topic for the thread.

 

[dl2dp2]

You're not at all obligated to, but could you post your monthly budget?

Or DM me if this is too off topic for the thread.

This (living on 35-50k single) is doable in Manhattan. Did it for many years. Fairly luxuriously (multiple international trips yearly) AND saved yearly.

...not comparable to middle class life in Western Europe...

Couple of things: 1. Obamacare. In many large states uninsured rate is now single digits. This btw didn't change much prior to Obamacare--you could have always gone to a public hospital and paid nothing, with or without insurance. Obamacare allowed these hospitals to directly bill certain (medicaid driven) plans. That's all. 2. Have you lived in Western Europe? The QOL in Western Europe is a very very low in many ways. Many people literally have no air conditioning. Doctors get paid 1/3 to 1/5 as much. Yes, you get more vacation days and don't have to think about health insurance at all if you are unemployed, but it's *much harder* to become financially independent early on in your life in Western Europe. And we are talking UK, France and Germany and Nordic countries. Once you go second tier (Italy/Greece/Spain) you literally have a 25% unemployment rate--it's essentially impossible to become a dollar millionaire.

Feel free to move to Europe if you really like their system. The degree of brainwashing is unreal.

There are places that are superior to the US in the world, but they are all in Asia.

 

[psychacad]

This (living on 35-50k single) is doable in Manhattan. Did it for many years. Fairly luxuriously (multiple international trips yearly) AND saved yearly.

Couple of things: 1. Obamacare. In many large states uninsured rate is now single digits. This btw didn't change much prior to Obamacare--you could have always gone to a public hospital and paid nothing, with or without insurance. Obamacare allowed these hospitals to directly bill certain (medicaid driven) plans. That's all. 2. Have you lived in Western Europe? The QOL in Western Europe is a very very low in many ways. Many people literally have no air conditioning. Doctors get paid 1/3 to 1/5 as much. Yes, you get more vacation days and don't have to think about health insurance at all if you are unemployed, but it's *much harder* to become financially independent early on in your life in Western Europe. And we are talking UK, France and Germany and Nordic countries. Once you go second tier (Italy/Greece/Spain) you literally have a 25% unemployment rate--it's essentially impossible to become a dollar millionaire.

Feel free to move to Europe if you really like their system. The degree of brainwashing is unreal.

There are places that are superior to the US in the world, but they are all in Asia.

You're really missing the point here. We're talking about the average working person, not doctors, with a mean household income of 60k. And yes, I lived in Europe and doctors have it nicer here (but not by as much as you think), but that is besides the point. The average working person has it better there, though, particularly in the German speaking and nordic countries. And why is 'literally not having air conditioning' a bad thing? They are incredibly inefficient and wasteful. They build homes with fantastic insulation in Germany and are able to save on heating and on cooling and their summers are like 1.5 months anyhow. Their housing is of much higher quality for the average person, as again there are standards, so the QOL is not higher here by any stretch. They don't have to worry about healthcare, education up to university, childcare, have better public transportation, are not saddled by debts, maternity/paternity leaves...etc. The degree of brainwashing here is actually unreal. Americans live in a cocoon for the most part and have no idea what happens outside their borders. I can't really imagine how living in Manhattan on 35k is 'luxurious', lol. You can't even get a broken studio with that.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Why would anyone take a facility job with 15 minute follow ups? You see more patients and have less time to document, increasing risk of malpractice. And the pay isn't anymore than 30 minute follow ups as you can bill for add-on therapy.

To the OP's question, I would take my dream job even if the pay is lower. Someone who is financially prudent can retire with millions on $200k / year, even in a HCOL area.

This is very true. But let's run the numbers. 200k salary with a married couple with a non working spouse and no kids. Taxes bring you down to 147k.
Loans and mortgage plus a vehicle with normal expenses in an average cost of living area your looking at 5-6k/month. 147-72 leaves you with 75k.

Let's say you invest 50k of that 75k into the stock market inflation adjusted 5% returns. It will take 25 years for you to have 2.3 million in today's dollars. Sure maybe there is some 401k and match and all but if you have kids and plan to help with college that would cancel that out more or less even without the college part.

Nobody's making millions in a HCOL area unless they have a working spouse (100k+) and no kids unless someone is planning to work till their 65-70. The math simply doesn't add up.

You can't make 200k unless you have a spouse making a 6 figure salary and plan to have a 25-30 year career unless you marry rich/lucky investment and live in a HCOL and if you have kids it would be even more of a challenge.

 

[Merovinge]

This is very true. But let's run the numbers. 200k salary with a married couple with a non working spouse and no kids. Taxes bring you down to 147k.
Loans and mortgage plus a vehicle with normal expenses in an average cost of living area your looking at 5-6k/month. 147-72 leaves you with 75k.

Let's say you invest 50k of that 75k into the stock market inflation adjusted 5% returns. It will take 25 years for you to have 2.3 million in today's dollars. Sure maybe there is some 401k and match and all but if you have kids and plan to help with college that would cancel that out more or less even without the college part.

Nobody's making millions in a HCOL area unless they have a working spouse (100k+) and no kids unless someone is planning to work till their 65-70. The math simply doesn't add up.

You can't make 200k unless you have a spouse making a 6 figure salary and plan to have a 25-30 year career unless you marry rich/lucky investment and live in a HCOL and if you have kids it would be even more of a challenge.

I will say 25 years as an attending is still a relatively short career compared to other professions. Most people expect to retire at 65 and if you were a traditional student this is certainly faster. That said taking 200k as a sole earner in a household with kids and being in a HCOL area is not a decision being made by someone who values retiring with a comfy nest egg or many upper middle class creature comforts. Your numbers are definitely reasonable though.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I will say 25 years as an attending is still a relatively short career compared to other professions. Most people expect to retire at 65 and if you were a traditional student this is certainly faster. That said taking 200k as a sole earner in a household with kids and being in a HCOL area is not a decision being made by someone who values retiring with a comfy nest egg or many upper middle class creature comforts. Your numbers are definitely reasonable though.

The thing is i feel the millennial generation don't think about working till 65 like previous generations and this includes the docs.

It is almost assumed that this gen of doctors at least want to retire by early 50's and i am not even talking about FIRE i am talking about normal. Anecdotal for sure but i lead some med school interest groups and this is the common sentiment. No one wants to work a long career... but rather 3-4 day/wks, no call, no wknds, make 400k and retire by 50 max in some HCOL area lol... i think we can agree that lifestyle is more and more valued by current generations of med students/residents because frankly the ACGME made their training in med school and residency "cush" compared to previous generations and with that comes early ish retirement sentiments separate from FIRE.... seems like that is defined as post 50s'.... Not sure what the avg age of an attending is but probably 30-32.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

This is very true. But let's run the numbers. 200k salary with a married couple with a non working spouse and no kids. Taxes bring you down to 147k.
Loans and mortgage plus a vehicle with normal expenses in an average cost of living area your looking at 5-6k/month. 147-72 leaves you with 75k.

Let's say you invest 50k of that 75k into the stock market inflation adjusted 5% returns. It will take 25 years for you to have 2.3 million in today's dollars. Sure maybe there is some 401k and match and all but if you have kids and plan to help with college that would cancel that out more or less even without the college part.

Nobody's making millions in a HCOL area unless they have a working spouse (100k+) and no kids unless someone is planning to work till their 65-70. The math simply doesn't add up.

You can't make 200k unless you have a spouse making a 6 figure salary and plan to have a 25-30 year career unless you marry rich/lucky investment and live in a HCOL and if you have kids it would be even more of a challenge.

Inflation adjusted literally means you’re adjusting for yearly inflation. So no, not in today’s dollars, in 25 years from now dollars. Before inflation annual investment returns should run in the neighborhood of 10% but may be more like 7-8% in the future (so 5-6% after inflation).

Also, if you start working as an attending at 31-32yo, it’s very reasonable to expect to work for the next 25 years. Hell most people will end up working for the next 30+ years, at least in some capacity, considering psychiatry is one of the least demanding fields physically and outpatient is incredibly easy to go down to 2-3 days per week. By the time you’re 60, expenses are likely to be quite a bit lower as well (house likely to be paid off, kids out of the house), as long as you have decent health insurance.

50k x 30 years at 5% rate of return is about 3.6 million dollars. So yes you’ll be very comfortable.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Inflation adjusted literally means you’re adjusting for yearly inflation. So no, not in today’s dollars, in 25 years from now dollars. Before inflation annual investment returns should run in the neighborhood of 10% but may be more like 7-8% in the future (so 5-6% after inflation).

Also, if you start working as an attending at 31-32yo, it’s very reasonable to expect to work for the next 25 years. Hell most people will end up working for the next 30+ years, at least in some capacity, considering psychiatry is one of the least demanding fields physically and outpatient is incredibly easy to go down to 2-3 days per week. By the time you’re 60, expenses are likely to be quite a bit lower as well (house likely to be paid off, kids out of the house), as long as you have decent health insurance.

50k x 30 years at 5% rate of return is about 3.6 million dollars. So yes you’ll be very comfortable.

Your right. eventually the house will be paid off but property taxes are annoying depending on location and market value and tax rate so that will still be there at some point. Your just not going to do it in a HCOL unless of course your ok with working for 30 years. My motto is try and make more and cut your mandatory time by half. Why not achieve those goals in 15 years and sure you may work another 15 years but you'll be working much more on your terms. Even though i plan to "retire" in 2031 it doesn't mean i stop working.. For me in 2031 I have "retired" from the mental pressure of having to work and saving money ever again. Maybe not everyone thinks this way but oh well.

 

[deleted1012620]

Is a net worth of 2.3 mil at age 55 supposed to be bad? (In addition to being almost done w/ a mortgage)

 

[kopftonmd]

The thing is i feel the millennial generation don't think about working till 65 like previous generations and this includes the docs.

It is almost assumed that this gen of doctors at least want to retire by early 50's and i am not even talking about FIRE i am talking about normal. Anecdotal for sure but i lead some med school interest groups and this is the common sentiment. No one wants to work a long career... but rather 3-4 day/wks, no call, no wknds, make 400k and retire by 50 max in some HCOL area lol... i think we can agree that lifestyle is more and more valued by current generations of med students/residents because frankly the ACGME made their training in med school and residency "cush" compared to previous generations and with that comes early ish retirement sentiments separate from FIRE.... seems like that is defined as post 50s'.... Not sure what the avg age of an attending is but probably 30-32.

As a millennial (just barely!) this is definitely a sentiment I see from time to time. Maybe it's because we're burnt out from the third year clerkships, but many of my classmates can't see themselves working until they're 65 without losing their marbles. Plus, some people really want to pursue other careers after medicine, once they have the financial security to chase those dreams.

I will say though, sure everyone dreams of working 3 days a week with no call or weekends making ca$$$h money, but is that such a bad aspiration, provided it's tempered with an understanding of reality. Who wouldn't want to make more money and work less, regardless of what job they're in? I don't think it's so bad to dream if you appreciate that the dream may not (aka probably will not aka will almost certainly not) come true.

 

[Stagg737]

We're talking about the average working person, not doctors, with a mean household income of 60k

It is still easy for the average 4-person household outside of high COL locations to live comfortably off 60k/yr and plan for the future if they're not idiots and financially realistic, excluding some financially catastrophic event does not befall that household.

Is a net worth of 2.3 mil at age 55 supposed to be bad? (In addition to being almost done w/ a mortgage)

Depends on the lifestyle you want. If you want to retire at 65 and live like the "average" American, you'd be doing great. If you want to retire at 60, expect to live another 25 years, and want to continue living like you're pulling in $300K+ per year, 2.3 mil doesn't look so good.

 

[dl2dp2]

It is still easy for the average 4-person household outside of high COL locations to live comfortably off 60k/yr and plan for the future if they're not idiots and financially realistic, excluding some financially catastrophic event does not befall that household.

Yup. The difference between the US and Europe is that the average 4-person household in Europe makes 40k/year at best, and on a per sq ft basis housing is much more expensive in Europe. Household items and groceries are also typically more expensive.

I can't really imagine how living in Manhattan on 35k is 'luxurious', lol. You can't even get a broken studio with that.

You clearly don't know Manhattan very well. And btw, 35k (or less) is what most of the graduate students in Manhattan get paid. For a single person this is more than enough.

I also doubt that you lived in Europe (for any significant length of time): the way you talk about Europeans is wildly detached from reality and sounds more like certain caricatures provided by partisan hacks. Do you really think Europeans don't worry about education and healthcare cost? FYI: most European countries have a two tier healthcare system and most of the public universities are extremely competitive. You should do some research on how healthcare system in Germany and France works. The average American is far wealthier than the average European even taken into consideration of student loans.

America’s poorest are richer than most average Europeans: Study

The average psychiatrist in Germany (the country I know the best) make about 1/2 of what they make in the US. I actually thought about relocating until I realized that: the best paid psychiatrists in Germany works on US military bases.

Again, if you really think Europe is all that you are very welcome to relocate--just don't make stuff up.

 

[psychacad]

Did you just post a link from the Acton Institute and then made a point about doing research? Roflmao.

What does it have to do with me relocating? Clearly the mere mention that the average worker has it better in some European countries has got your ideological panties in complete twist. I mean, the travesty, some Europeans don't even have air conditioning!

 

[Shufflin]

2.3 Mil well vested across a spectrum of equities that range in 2% to 8% dividends would mean you don't have to work ever again.

 

[dl2dp2]

Did you just post a link from the Acton Institute and then made a point about doing research? Roflmao.

What does it have to do with me relocating? Clearly the mere mention that the average worker has it better in some European countries has got your ideological panties in complete twist. I mean, the travesty, some Europeans don't even have air conditioning!

The article cites factual sources that are cited in various outlets--it's just one that happens to summarize it most succinctly. There's no ideology--I'm just correcting your factual errors.

It has to do with you relocating because many people like you like to talk the talk but they rarely walk the walk. If America is so bad, perhaps you should leave. But you don't. I suppose the career you want isn't available in Europe at all. Unlike you, I actually explored in a real way working in Europe and saw very plainly the pitfalls. And looping back to the title of this thread: would you take a dream job in Europe if it pays 1/2 of the salary? You won't. Isn't that the point of this whole discussion?

 

[psychacad]

The article cites factual sources that are cited in various outlets--it's just one that happens to summarize it most succinctly. There's no ideology--I'm just correcting your factual errors.

It has to do with you relocating because many people like you like to talk the talk but they rarely walk the walk. If America is so bad, perhaps you should leave. But you don't. I suppose the career you want isn't available in Europe at all. Unlike you, I actually explored in a real way working in Europe and saw very plainly the pitfalls. And looping back to the title of this thread: would you take a dream job in Europe if it pays 1/2 of the salary? Isn't that the point of this whole discussion?

The 'study' that horrific article mentions was done by 'Just Facts', a right wing nutjob organization with its agenda plain obvious plain obvious from just scrolling over the home page.

The fact that you think this has anything to do with my situation is very revealing. Besides being entirely illogical as the point has nothing to do with people who are in the upper 10 5 percentile of income in the US, it also tells us a lot about you as well. "if you don't like it leave" *chest thump"

 

[finalpsychyear]

2.3 Mil well vested across a spectrum of equities that range in 2% to 8% dividends would mean you don't have to work ever again.

how long before retirement would you need to have this accumulated and invested? There's a doc in my hospital ortho newish attending 4-5 years probably 35-36 years old... been living like a resident who goes around stating he has 2m in his taxable investments just from doing that. So he could basically retire your saying right now?

 

[dl2dp2]

The fact that you think this has anything to do with my situation is very revealing. Besides being entirely illogical as the point has nothing to do with people who are in the upper 10 5 percentile of income in the US, it also tells us a lot about you as well. "if you don't like it leave" *chest thump"

Not really. The only thing of relevant are the facts. Poor people here are wealthier than the average people in Europe. Poor people also get shot here a lot more often than they do in Europe, and sometimes have lower life expectancy than much poorer people in Europe. You can plainly make various arguments with the correct facts. Your facts are incorrect--we don't even need to go to ideology. You also misinterpreted the statement that if you don't like it leave. I'm simply giving you possible choices and the appraisal of pros and cons of leaving, which I have made. Immigration is a very natural strategy. My parents immigrated. You can too if you really want. There's no chest thump involved: it's not very desirable (except to the politicians who want to manipulate you) to feel like you are stuck in a system that you can't change--that part is the brainwashing. Plus, what is how the poor doing relevant? Nobody here is poor. This wasn't being discussed.

 

[psychacad]

Not really. The only thing of relevant are the facts. Poor people here are wealthier than the average people in Europe. Poor people also get shot here a lot more often than they do in Europe, and sometimes have lower life expectancy than much poorer people in Europe. You can plainly make various arguments with the correct facts. Your facts are incorrect--we don't even need to go to ideology. You also misinterpreted the statement that if you don't like it leave. I'm simply giving you possible choices--and in fact, the appraisal of pros and cons of leaving, which I have made. Immigration is a very natural strategy. My parents immigrated. You can too if you really want. There's no chest thump involved: it's not very desirable (except to the politicians who want to abuse your sense of hopelessness) to feel like you are stuck in a system that you can't change--that part is the brainwashing. Everyone always has a choice.

Nope, no escaping what your attempt to make this discussion personal reveals. You have no clue if I like it here or not. You even want to dictate what I do with h my life, rofl. The financial situation of the average american has no bearing on my own. But keep digging that hole.

The 'facts' you're spewing are propaganda by 'Just Facts', a right-wing nutjob website. You've provided no actual reliable or academic source. Ill let that sink in more.

 

[dl2dp2]

Nope, no escaping what your attempt to make this discussion personal reveals. You have no clue if I like it here or not. The financial situation of the average american has no bearing on my own. But keep digging that hole.

The 'facts' you're spewing are propaganda by 'Just Facts', a right-wing nutjob website. You've provided no actual reliable or academic source. Ill let that sink in more.

But why is the 'financial situation of the average American" relevant to the present discussion at all. The question is whether one might take a "dream job" [for a psychiatrist] for a "lower than average salary" [for a psychiatrist]. The only relevant facts are personal experiences. The only reason I even cited the data here is that you keep harping on irrelevant "facts" that aren't even accurate in reality. I don't really care if you like it here or not [in reality]. I'm just saying *IF* you don't like it here you are FREE to move to Europe to pursue your "dream job".

It's just like your point of being unable to live in Manhattan on 35k with comfort and some luxury. I did it for years. So it just directly contracts everything you've said. I don't even need to disagree with you on an ideological basis.

 

[psychacad]

But why is the 'financial situation of the average American" relevant to the present discussion at all. The question is whether one might take a "dream job" [for a psychiatrist] for a "lower than average salary" [for a psychiatrist]. The only relevant facts are personal experiences. The only reason I even cited the data here is that you keep harping on irrelevant "facts" that aren't even accurate in reality.

It's your point of being unable to live in Manhattan on 35k with comfort and some luxury. I did it for years. So it just directly contracts everything you've said.

As opposed to 'data' and a 'study' by a cracknut propaganda website? On a physician board as well?

I mean, this is getting hilarious if not sad. The discussion was exactly about expectations for an average household salary. But you know that anyhow. You just couldn't help making personal comments and illogical wild assumptions because it touched some libertarian right wing nerve, followed predictably by citing a libertarian crackpot 'study'. It's actually a perfect example of toxic bullying behavior meant to shut down a discourse you didnt like.

Anyways, done here.

 

[dl2dp2]

As opposed to 'data' and a 'study' by a cracknut propaganda website? On a physician board as well?

I mean, this is getting hilarious if not sad. The discussion was exactly about expectations for an average household salary. But you know that anyhow. You just couldn't help making personal comments because it touched some libertarian right wing nerve, followed predictably by citing a libertarian crackpot 'study'.

Anyways, done here.

Right--your expectations are not universal experiences--they are opinions informed not by direct personal experiences but propaganda. It's useful for trainees/junior attendings to know that. You have NO idea what it's like to actually live on 35k a year in Manhattan or be an immigrant. It's really not so bad. Not everyone is a victim of "the system", and as a psychiatrist, you don't have to be even if you take a lower paying job. That's really my point.

 

[finalpsychyear]

As a millennial (just barely!) this is definitely a sentiment I see from time to time. Maybe it's because we're burnt out from the third year clerkships, but many of my classmates can't see themselves working until they're 65 without losing their marbles. Plus, some people really want to pursue other careers after medicine, once they have the financial security to chase those dreams.

I will say though, sure everyone dreams of working 3 days a week with no call or weekends making ca$$$h money, but is that such a bad aspiration, provided it's tempered with an understanding of reality. Who wouldn't want to make more money and work less, regardless of what job they're in? I don't think it's so bad to dream if you appreciate that the dream may not (aka probably will not aka will almost certainly not) come true.

Well in my friends circle..lot of newer attendings are making it happen by working 60 ish hours first few years to pay down debt and invest heavy. Few even have almost got 7 figure nest eggs in 5-6 years doing this and are now cutting back to 40 ish hours. The combo of debt free and nearly that much saved in 5ish years will payoff exponetially going forward.

 

[Stagg737]

how long before retirement would you need to have this accumulated and invested? There's a doc in my hospital ortho newish attending 4-5 years probably 35-36 years old... been living like a resident who goes around stating he has 2m in his taxable investments just from doing that. So he could basically retire your saying right now?

Again? Depends on the lifestyle you want to live. Live like a resident on $50k per year and he doesn’t even need to have that 2.3 mil invested. Want to live like an ortho attending on $400k+, and he won’t even get a decade of retirement. General rule is that you can safely pull 4% out of retirement per year and be confident that you will have enough money to live off for 30 years. WCI’s book has a table looking at years money needs to last Vs. Annual % withdrawn and gives the probability that you could successfully live that way (don’t remember wha the source of the table was, but it was a large economic study).

Using those numbers, the doc you’re referencing could safely withdraw $92k/year to live off and be confident his money will last 30 years. This is assuming there is no additional income added to those investments with consistent amount of withdrawal. There’s plenty of calculators and reference tools to play around with to give an idea of retirement options.

Well in my friends circle..lot of newer attendings are making it happen by working 60 ish hours first few years to pay down debt and invest heavy. Few even have almost got 7 figure nest eggs in 5-6 years doing this and are now cutting back to 40 ish hours. The combo of debt free and nearly that much saved in 5ish years will payoff exponetially going forward.

This is the fastest and typically best way to build wealth. Front loading investments pays off in the long run, and working more when you’re younger and have the energy/motivation is a lot easier than having to to go back to the grind when you’d rather be cutting back.

 

[AD04]

This is very true. But let's run the numbers. 200k salary with a married couple with a non working spouse and no kids. Taxes bring you down to 147k.
Loans and mortgage plus a vehicle with normal expenses in an average cost of living area your looking at 5-6k/month. 147-72 leaves you with 75k.

Let's say you invest 50k of that 75k into the stock market inflation adjusted 5% returns. It will take 25 years for you to have 2.3 million in today's dollars. Sure maybe there is some 401k and match and all but if you have kids and plan to help with college that would cancel that out more or less even without the college part.

Nobody's making millions in a HCOL area unless they have a working spouse (100k+) and no kids unless someone is planning to work till their 65-70. The math simply doesn't add up.

You can't make 200k unless you have a spouse making a 6 figure salary and plan to have a 25-30 year career unless you marry rich/lucky investment and live in a HCOL and if you have kids it would be even more of a challenge.

I wouldn't imagine someone trying to retire early from a dream job, so why not work until 65 - 70? By then, you can collect social security and don't have to dip so much into the retirement account. Having children doesn't have to be expensive. But if you're trying to keep up with the Joneses and want the nice cars and nice house in a good education district and want to send the kids to prestigious preparatory schools and fancy universities, then it is going to add up.

But the people who look rich and live in their affluent bubble while saving up for retirement as a sole earner who wants to retire early don't take dream jobs. They work stressful jobs and don't have much time for family.

You're trying to present a scenario where someone has his cake and eat it too: work 3 - 4 days / week and retire wealthy at 50 - 55 and live as an upper middle class as a sole earner taking care of spouse and kids.

 

[NITRAS]

Does the OP have significant debt?
Can (or want to) you live off of $200k or do some other things to make enough for you desired life?

My first job was $175k as I was thinking about applying for fellowship. My first paycheck was like $4200. I didn’t feel like it was much money.

I make almost double that now. Some days suck. Most are pretty good. It is work, but I have plenty of time off. And I could really tell when my income went from $220 to $280. I’m 35, I’m almost a millionaire. I have a paid off $400k house (as of last month), and no consumer debt. My expenses are something like $4k-$5/month. I could easily do this for another decade and either move to a slower paced job.

 

[psydoc80]

Absolutely 100%. I would take my dream job for 210K. Are there opportunities for outside jobs you can take to supplement your income? For me 210K is enough to live on/save even without outside work.

 

[Dave1980]

I was recently offered an incredible job in a town I really want to live in. The catch? The salary is very low. It's an academic position and I will get a patient population I like. A lot of my time will be protected for a specific area of research I'm interested in and for resident education which I also like. Basically they'll let me do what I want in terms of clinic and very little of my time will be spent in clinic anyway. But the tradeoff is the salary. It pays in the 210K neighborhood. I used to be of the mindset that if you enjoy your job, money isn't important. But now that I've made more than that, I think that's BS.

Would you take a pay cut for a job you know you'd really like in a town you've been wanting to move to for a while?

How does a job pay 210k with minimal clinic? And they let you do what you want? How does this system run and how do I join?

 

[Sushirolls]

How does a job pay 210k with minimal clinic? And they let you do what you want? How does this system run and how do I join?

Yes, it's called building your own private practice.

 

[Merovinge]

How does a job pay 210k with minimal clinic? And they let you do what you want? How does this system run and how do I join?

You get research grants and do research as ME mentioned in his post. That's not uncommon for researchers to make around 200k who do very little clinical work.

 

[Dave1980]

You get research grants and do research as ME mentioned in his post. That's not uncommon for researchers to make around 200k who do very little clinical work.

He didn't say he got research grants. Or did I miss it?

 

[finalpsychyear]

Does the OP have significant debt?
Can (or want to) you live off of $200k or do some other things to make enough for you desired life?

My first job was $175k as I was thinking about applying for fellowship. My first paycheck was like $4200. I didn’t feel like it was much money.

I make almost double that now. Some days suck. Most are pretty good. It is work, but I have plenty of time off. And I could really tell when my income went from $220 to $280. I’m 35, I’m almost a millionaire. I have a paid off $400k house (as of last month), and no consumer debt. My expenses are something like $4k-$5/month. I could easily do this for another decade and either move to a slower paced job.

i keep forgetting you can count a house toward coining urself a millionaire. Def a downside to be renting for the last 4-5 years

 

[deleted1012620]

how long before retirement would you need to have this accumulated and invested? There's a doc in my hospital ortho newish attending 4-5 years probably 35-36 years old... been living like a resident who goes around stating he has 2m in his taxable investments just from doing that. So he could basically retire your saying right now?

I think he still needs to cover his living expenses with earned income, but he definitely doesn't need to save any more for retirement if he doesn't want to. That 2m is already a comfortable retirement number for the majority of 65 year olds, and he's got that now with 3 decades for it to compound.

That would be considered coast FIRE I believe.

 

[Merovinge]

He didn't say he got research grants. Or did I miss it?

"A lot of my time will be protected for a specific area of research I'm interested in" was in your quote of his. It does not explicitly state that he himself is bringing the grants/funding but I would imagine most attending physician are aware of how research time is funded.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I think he still needs to cover his living expenses with earned income, but he definitely doesn't need to save any more for retirement if he doesn't want to. That 2m is already a comfortable retirement number for the majority of 65 year olds, and he's got that now with 3 decades for it to compound.

That would be considered coast FIRE I believe.

I am pretty sure 2.5m is the magic number and for someone 35-40 years old you use 3.5% instead of 4% to be conservative.
Comes out to about 90k drawn from portfolio yearly for a 50 year outlook it is something like 93-95% safe and assumes you never make another dollar which is false as more than likely you will get some social security at 65-67 yo and if you have some decent dividend funds even better to use toward that 90k+ maybe a bit more.

 

[Dave1980]

"A lot of my time will be protected for a specific area of research I'm interested in" was in your quote of his. It does not explicitly state that he himself is bringing the grants/funding but I would imagine most attending physician are aware of how research time is funded.

I wouldn't count on any MD getting even nearly enough funding to cover themselves. @Mass Effect are you bringing in significant grant money?

 

[Stagg737]

I am pretty sure 2.5m is the magic number and for someone 35-40 years old you use 3.5% instead of 4% to be conservative.
Comes out to about 90k drawn from portfolio yearly for a 50 year outlook it is something like 93-95% safe and assumes you never make another dollar which is false as more than likely you will get some social security at 65-67 yo and if you have some decent dividend funds even better to use toward that 90k+ maybe a bit more.

Doesn't give dollar amounts, but here's a link to WCI's page with table 2 which shows how "safe" you are withdrawing X% annually over Y years. It also breaks things down based on percentage of investment in stocks vs. bonds. His calculations only go 30 years out but there are plenty of other tables out there that go out 50-60 years.

The 4% Rule and Safe Withdrawal Rates | White Coat Investor

The Trinity Study was key in determining that you can't spend 10% of your portfolio each year and expect it to last. How much can you spend?

www.whitecoatinvestor.com

Not sure what happened to the previous link, but here it is. Mods, if this is ToS violation or there is some other problem please let me know.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Doesn't give dollar amounts, but here's a link to WCI's page with table 2 which shows how "safe" you are withdrawing X% annually over Y years. It also breaks things down based on percentage of investment in stocks vs. bonds. His calculations only go 30 years out but there are plenty of other tables out there that go out 50-60 years.

Great thanks so much.. i spent several hours playing with the fire calc calculator which you can enter tons of info applicable to you. Here is an example that I think will apply to most people trying to FIRE using the 4% withdrawal rule based on 2.5m nest egg with a 100k yearly spending from that portfolio for 30 years and assumes you never make a single dollar again or get social security or any pension or income ever again other than your portfolio growth so even dividends not calculated:

1. if you flat out retire the second you reach that 2.5m you can literally withdraw 100-110k which will put you in the 90-95% odds of never depleting your nest egg.

2. if you simply wait 5 years after reaching that number and let your 2.5m just grow without touching it you can literally withdraw 130-140 and stay in the 90-95% odds

3. if your like most people and you have 2.5m and decided your retiring in 5 years your going to probably sock away a decent chunk. My guess is if you combine 401k/iras and after tax contributions/savings 100k is reasonable during those last 5 years of working. So if you reach 2.5m but let it grow for 5 additional years while adding 100k yearly and don't touch it in any way so obviously your still working now things get even better
and you are looking at 155-170k yearly withdrawals staying in the 90-95% confidence interval.

The final question is what age does the average doctor reach 2.5m dollars inflation adjusted but this has been very informative for me and i think all my questions have been answered.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Great thanks so much.. i spent several hours playing with the fire calc calculator which you can enter tons of info applicable to you. Here is an example that I think will apply to most people trying to FIRE using the 4% withdrawal rule based on 2.5m nest egg with a 100k yearly spending from that portfolio for 30 years and assumes you never make a single dollar again or get social security or any pension or income ever again other than your portfolio growth so even dividends not calculated:

1. if you flat out retire the second you reach that 2.5m you can literally withdraw 100-110k which will put you in the 90-95% odds of never depleting your nest egg.

2. if you simply wait 5 years after reaching that number and let your 2.5m just grow without touching it you can literally withdraw 130-140 and stay in the 90-95% odds

3. if your like most people and you have 2.5m and decided your retiring in 5 years your going to probably sock away a decent chunk. My guess is if you combine 401k/iras and after tax contributions/savings 100k is reasonable during those last 5 years of working. So if you reach 2.5m but let it grow for 5 additional years while adding 100k yearly and don't touch it in any way so obviously your still working now things get even better
and you are looking at 155-170k yearly withdrawals staying in the 90-95% confidence interval.

The final question is what age does the average doctor reach 2.5m dollars inflation adjusted but this has been very informative for me and i think all my questions have been answered.

So just for those wondering inflation adjusted 2.5million I think i have some guidelines for that assuming salary of 250k married no kids and you start debt free with 0 dollars in the bank. After tax is 180k. Live off 80k and invest 100k per year.

Investing 100k with 5% adjusted returns accounting for inflation gets you to almost 2.6m in 17 years. Of course you will make more over time and maybe spousal income but also you will have kids maybe and more expenses and then their are loans to consider so maybe 15-20 years is the typical range which would put you at around 45- 50 years old.

* I still wonder how some docs can attain that 2.5m in 5-6 years assuming it is coming from their income and not big gains in stocks etc. but maybe some who claim that are lying even if they are in ortho, plastics, derm idk*

 

[robellis]

So just for those wondering inflation adjusted 2.5million I think i have some guidelines for that assuming salary of 250k married no kids and you start debt free with 0 dollars in the bank. After tax is 180k. Live off 80k and invest 100k per year.

Investing 100k with 5% adjusted returns accounting for inflation gets you to almost 2.6m in 17 years. Of course you will make more over time and maybe spousal income but also you will have kids maybe and more expenses and then their are loans to consider so maybe 15-20 years is the typical range which would put you at around 45- 50 years old.

* I still wonder how some docs can attain that 2.5m in 5-6 years assuming it is coming from their income and not big gains in stocks etc. but maybe some who claim that are lying even if they are in ortho, plastics, derm idk*

Ortho can graduate and make 800k per year..psych not in that league

 

[Shufflin]

how long before retirement would you need to have this accumulated and invested? There's a doc in my hospital ortho newish attending 4-5 years probably 35-36 years old... been living like a resident who goes around stating he has 2m in his taxable investments just from doing that. So he could basically retire your saying right now?

Keeping the $2 Mill vested means you're not dipping into it. So in this scenario one would need to make those big life payments first, the home down-payment, college payments, etc.

If you have $2 Mil after those life-changing deposits, then you're sittin pretty.

 

[Stagg737]

Ortho can graduate and make 800k per year..psych not in that league

It's possible, but exceptionally rare straight out of residency in psych. Current PGY-4 in my program found a higher paying offer than that, but declined d/t location and expected workload. 800k is also pretty rare straight out of residency in ortho, but much more realistic if you're willing to kill yourself with your schedule.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Ortho can graduate and make 800k per year..psych not in that league

It depends. In my area some exceed that bc the real go getter psych docs are running an inpt 20-24 unit with medical directorship while having a 5 NP PP and they run that 7 days out of the week some even do tms, ketamine, suboxone, medical marijuana.... etc but we are talking about 1% of psych docs doing this. To be fair the 1% ortho have huge stakes in surgical centers and are making 2-3 mill per year in 2020 back in the 90s closer to 4-5 million which in todays money would be like 8-10 million. I know this as my good friends' father was in ortho in the 90's and they have several million dollars houses across the country it actually is quite sickening.

 

[Candidate2017]

I'm still a resident and single w/o kids, so maybe my perspective is skewed, but can the attendings give me some perspective?

When I run numbers online for a 230k salary, I get something like 12-14k per month take home depending on state.

If you're saving 4k a month for retirement, you're living on 8k a month at minimum. Seems you'll likely have more than 8k due to 401k match and tax benefits of contributing to 401k.

Are people out there finding it hard to buy everything they want and then some with 8k a month?

School/residency is a blindfold that blinds us on how the giant pot of gold is divided up. So it's natural to play the game of "I could be happy with [relatively low dollar amount] because I have X dollars left after taxes, which is more money than I've ever had or can imagine."

But in the real world, at some point, the allocation of money ceases to be about material objects, lifestyles, COL. It becomes a message. Like when the hospital board gives the $20 mil CEO a 6 figure bonus in the midst of a pandemic, but frontline workers get a $500 bonus, attendings get a paycut, and residents get zero.

 

[brazilianpsych]

Does the OP have significant debt?
Can (or want to) you live off of $200k or do some other things to make enough for you desired life?

My first job was $175k as I was thinking about applying for fellowship. My first paycheck was like $4200. I didn’t feel like it was much money.

I make almost double that now. Some days suck. Most are pretty good. It is work, but I have plenty of time off. And I could really tell when my income went from $220 to $280. I’m 35, I’m almost a millionaire. I have a paid off $400k house (as of last month), and no consumer debt. My expenses are something like $4k-$5/month. I could easily do this for another decade and either move to a slower paced job.

I am feeling really stupid, but if you earn 175k per year, how is your paycheck only $4200? I mean, 175/12 is 14k per month. I don't know much but that is pretty high. Are you talking about paychecks every 2 weeks? Even then, that would mean earning 8k and paying 6k out of taxes. Is it really that bad?

 

[finalpsychyear]

I am feeling really stupid, but if you earn 175k per year, how is your paycheck only $4200? I mean, 175/12 is 14k per month. I don't know much but that is pretty high. Are you talking about paychecks every 2 weeks? Even then, that would mean earning 8k and paying 6k out of taxes. Is it really that bad?

they may have been single and with benefits and all that is actually spot on 120k post tax/ 26 biweekly is around 4600- benefits so yes 4200 is right.

 

[Psychresy]

Part of me thinks about just working the minimal years possible and retiring super early. By calculations, it looks like correctional jobs can be had for about 280-300/hr. Bang out 70 hour weeks, take a month off a year, repeat for 5 years and you could finish with over 2M in the bank after taxes if you're living like a resident for 5 more years. Seems too simple though..what am I missing?

 

[Stagg737]

Part of me thinks about just working the minimal years possible and retiring super early. By calculations, it looks like correctional jobs can be had for about 280-300/hr. Bang out 70 hour weeks, take a month off a year, repeat for 5 years and you could finish with over 2M in the bank after taxes if you're living like a resident for 5 more years. Seems too simple though..what am I missing?

Burnout.