Ethical onus... not onerus. Contentious? You feel that the school does NOT have an ethical onus towards its students?
Ethical onus is onerous. I thought it amusing.
Wrt the USMLE, correct. I think they *should* prepare students better (and advocate for that), but that is very different. Is that unique? No, it is not -- you might want to spend some time with students at one of the new Australian med schools to see how much they struggle to have ANY say on admin/curriculum issues (only to lose accreditation, as has happened). The difference? The med socs, for one. The personalities, for another.
And I can see why you would think so, but I (we) are not so stupid as to sit down at a meeting and start that as our opening bid. We've played the game the way it is supposed to be played and gotten burned.
The thing is, I have seen a lot of how "the game" has been played, and how insufficient that has been. You have seen, what, a meeting? A bitch fest? You come on here and claim "This is how it is..." when you aren't even privvy to the personalities, the conversations and the meetings where they would have originated, and then you have the gall to claim others who may have been to such meetings and talked to those people don't have any idea what's going on?? Dude, pull your head out. If all you were doing was claiming, "hey, I'm Ochsner, and this is what I see and don't like...", then fine. But you don't. You can't help but get wound up and make emotion-driven allusions about people you don't know who are involved in behind-the-scenes processes (let alone the overt ones) you keep demonstrating you know little about. That does nothing for you, the program, or even your own purported purpose for being here on this forum.
And now you belie your actual ivory tower stance towards this program and how little you know about what is actually going on. Yes, we ARE required to sit the USMLE and we ARE required to sit it before 3rd year starts. Is that an AMC ruling? Or UQ? Or even a US federal statute like it is for American students? No. It is a requisite from Ochsner as part of the partnership agreement. Why do you think that the recently finished 2nd years have their first rotation off to study for the exam? Or did you even know that?
Yes, I did know all that (except the US federal statute part is wrong -- as said, you can always look up federal laws...). What is it that I don't know about the program, one more time?
Yes, it sucks that you are now subject to the same rule that most American schools impose on their students. More broadly, just as any American at UQ has to take the USMLE to get anywhere once they graduate. So what's your response? Wait, wasn't it to ask for more time to study, dedicated time, which Ochsner students subsequently (and exclusively) got??
Is the only purpose of your posts to whinge about the program, or is it to be more effective at changing things? Oh wait, read below, it IS admittedly just for you to whinge, and to dismiss advice from others who've been around the blocks which, oh my, *could* actually help@$#%!^? You think ya know THAT much about a system as a non-privileged, non-representative outsider after a year? So much that you're willing to sacrifice the very change you claim you've "busted your ass" over for the sake of future Ochsner cohorts?
What did the SoM say? Basically that the students should be able to manage that just fine. What did Ochsner say? That they would make the first rotation of year 3 a special study time to allow the students time to actually be with their families, move to a new city in a different country, study for, sit the exam, and succeed. And that was WITHOUT the students asking for this - they stepped up with that as a solution because they realized how incredibly unfair and arduous the situation was.
You're being naive. Ochsner and the SoM work on policy together, and they communicate. Ochsner cannot unilaterally change its curriculum to "correct" some UQ wrong -- such decisions must be, and are, made together.
You have instead given an example of how the program HAS BEEN RESPONSIVE -- to the need for USMLE prep time, which the SoM took seriously (which I have independently brought up in meeting with Wilko myself. Hint. Hint.).
The school being unprepared is putting it mildly. You seem to act like they had no onus to actually BE prepared for the program they were starting.
I never implied that. I think they should have been more prepared. Happy now?
And yes, we DO feel privileged. We have paid more than any other student in the history of the school. We are part of a separate program with different goals and intentions. So yes, we do get to have our own privileged say in things when it pertains to requirements ONLY of us. You want us to act and be just like the rest of the student population - well then we should be TREATED like the rest of the student population. We should not have extra placements imposed upon us, special restrictions for our electives, pay extra tuition, or have a requirement to sit the USMLE that is NOT in place for other students.
To the extent that two campuses can have the same policies, they will and must. As to restrictions on clinicals -- no UQ Australia students are allowed to take anywhere near as many non-Qld rotations as the Ochsner students will. It sucks not to be able to do one outside of Ochsner + UQ, but treating you like the "rest of the student population" would mean not being able to do your clinical years in the US in the first place!
Keep dreaming pitman - we act differently and demand different things BECAUSE THE SCHOOL IS TREATING US DIFFERENTLY!! You make these claims that we are "just a UQ program giving [us] extra US exposure." That is BS - then Australians and Canadians would be allowed to opt to pay the extra and join our program - they can't. You must be a US citizen. Did you know that? Did you know any of these things about how we are being treated differently and have different requirements, restrictions, and extras in order to graduate?
Keep dreaming what? You're making up things I never said or even implied. And yes, I did know. Why do you insist on making such simplistic assumptions about people you don't know? Like that UQ admin is lying to you? Are you paranoid, narcissistic, or what?
If you did, then you should know better than to claim we are just like the general population.
You're attempting to put words into my mouth. What I've been claiming is, rules and privileges should not be expected to be exclusive to you unless absolutely necessary (or trivial). You flat out assert that the SoM should have put together a mini- USMLE support structure for you, rather than design one correctly for all from the start, completely dismissing any point of view or consideration except "I pay more and am privileged".
I also claim, the UQMS is your representation, and the higher up the UQMS you can convince or get, the better for you. The UQMS routinely supports subsets of its students (down to the individual), and there's nothing inherently different with Ochsner in this regard. To think and act otherwise will -- and arguably and anecdotally has -- shot you in the foot. Bummer mindset. For
you.
If you didn't - then you better get hip to this stuff before spouting off about how much you know about this program.
So far, despite your assumptions you haven't shown anything I don't know which you do, and I have shown some things you don't. And yet, you are Ochsner while I am not.
Yes, that is a general statement - to discuss the particulars of such conversations would be, well, politically untenable. Suffice it to say, that for the purposes of this forum it is a point about the use of UQMS. You can choose not to believe what I have to say. That is up to you.
Hm. Particulars would be "politically untenable" but making sweeping accusations that UQ admin peeps are liars is not? Nice.
The point was to inform about how ill prepared, poorly managed, and completely unprofessional the SoM has been.
So the point (and you speak for all Ochsner students who have posted here, of course) is just to whinge and tell people how bad you think things are? And you're doing this...out of the kindness of your heart?
You are right - I should not speak to "the collective" - the collective is comprised of exactly the following people - David Wilkinson, Peter Jones, and Sue-Ellen Hogan. Those are the only people involved with the first 2 years of the UQ-Ochsner program. Wilko holds all the cards. Jones drops the cards and fumbles around like an idiot. Sue-Ellen is a very nice person who does a great job being Jones' secretary.
All I can say here is, how unfortunate for someone to think this. You really believe all you see is all there is?
And seen classmates who got accepted to a US school and jumped ship, or jumped ship to the general UQ population where they do actually get good representation via UQMS.
Anyone who joins an int'l program with the express intent of getting back to the US would be a fool not to consider leaving said program if/when they get accepted to a US school. This has been the case for N. Americans all over Australia for years. As to the fact that many Ochsner students are upset with aspects of the program, no argument here. No one denied that, which is why it's so bizarre that you claim they have, and think the UQMS hasn't been advocating for you. Can they do better? I guess you'll never know, 'cause you're dismissive of the whole process and have opted to insulate yourself from those more involved with it.
So please, stop giving advice on this forum as to how to deal with the SoM and UQMS. This is not the place to try and learn the system - this is the place to give the REAL story of what is ACTUALLY going on. You must really think me stupid to assume I have been posting up here to try and get policy moved through the UQMS. Yes, you are right, this has been an emotional whinge fest. But moreso it was an opportunity to let people see just how roughshod and [poorly slapped together this program is so they have something other than the mededpath propaganda to go off of.
YOUR story of what's ACTUALLY going on?
If you were more objective, or weren't blatantly wrong on so many things, I might not have responded to your posts. The truth is, you bury it amongst the rest, at the same time (admittedly) with no interest in advice on how to make improvements, claiming that you understand the system, that you've tried everything, and all that's left is for you to whinge/spread the word.
You don't have to take anyone's advice, that's for sure. But ya know what? You're not the only one here. You don't speak for Ochsner students by invoking "we" and claiming defeat. One can't sit there and say with a straight face, "The point of this here thread is [for me] to whinge". Unless one's narcissistic.
Perhaps you would like to say how I am wrong about all the requirements imposed on us? How really, I don't HAVE to do this crap the SoM is telling me to do. Sheesh.
No. I have never made such a claim, and I read and address what you actually say.