UQ/Ochsner MBBS Program 2011

[pitman]

I don't know why you think $5000 is a lot for a 8 week rotation. Think about it - $2000-$2500 airfare, $1200-$1800 rent, $1000-$1500 living epxenses, and then all the other stuff that costs money in life. $5000 might be cheap. It could be $7000. Your idea of UQ helping to pay for
rent/airfare/anything else is awesome! But unrealistic. Weve totally
asked them what they might cover, they have totally dismissed the
issue ...

Not that I think it's way off, but I think $2000 max for airfare if planned ahead of time, plus rent. There's no reason why living expenses (beyond rent) would be significantly higher than if you were staying in N.O., except maybe for an initial stocking of the fridge (thus you can't really argue living expenses as additional). Adding some buffer (5%), I think in practice it'll be more like $4000-$4200 extra for the trip.

If you can get the UQMS itself to make a concerted, relentless push for a reimbursement, it *might* happen. There are certainly good arguments analagous to ones made in the past (e.g., in a precedent a few years ago, Malaysians who came were put up by the SoM regionally when they were expecting to be in Brisbane but got 'seconded' outside the city for some terms).

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[tarraljana]

Hi all, just checking in again. Took a few days off the thread and
returned to find it churned up by a couple of guys at each other's
throats. Pacificblue and Pitman, I mentioned if before, now it's time
to be more direct. There are a few studnets on here trying to give a
balanced view of a young program. Yet, you're trivializing the thread
with your personal b.s. Please fellas - show some respect, nix the
personal stuff, or go start your own thread where you can be as silly
as you like. Get a room mates! haha

moving on ...

Jake, thanks bro for your very fair points. I've asked and been told
our representatives have been over the issue several times with the
program leadership. It was brought up last year, it was broght up this
year, there has been no change. Ochsner students can't do rotations at
US hospitals unless they're ay Ochsner. A petition is a good idea, but
would it say anything more than we have already said. Obviously the
fact that we're talking about it on this thread should give a heads up
to any premeds who would be bothered by that. As for us we're in it
for good. Fingers crossed for residencies in New Orleans, eh

 

[pitman]

Hi all, just checking in again. Took a few days off the thread and
returned to find it churned up by a couple of guys at each other's
throats. Pacificblue and Pitman, I mentioned if before, now it's time
to be more direct. There are a few studnets on here trying to give a
balanced view of a young program. Yet, you're trivializing the thread
with your personal b.s. Please fellas - show some respect, nix the
personal stuff, or go start your own thread where you can be as silly
as you like. Get a room mates! haha

Hmm. Precisely why I am here, mate, trying to allow a representative (rather than the never-going-to-happen 'balanced') view as someone who calls crap when he sees it, with something to contribute beyond anonymously repeating others, as someone who's been around the system you're starting to learn about.

If all you want is a place for current students to whinge as defeatists, then you can always form an insular FB group or private chat. If you want a chance at changing things, then learn how to organize and do that via forums such as this with the help of those who might be able to help you, at the expense of those who merely repeat the worst of others from afar, rather than pretending that anything pertaining to med is a fait accompli.

If you want change, first learn the ins and outs of the UQMS -- actions such as a petition might help, with an understanding of who's who rather than vaguely understood "representatives" out there in some ether. I'm getting the idea that besides the unofficial first year rep, most of those here claiming to be Ochsner students don't have any notion of who it would even be in their own interest to get to know. That is a critical flaw.

And if you are trying to change things by extorting them from the SoM via public forums such as this, then you really need to learn how to do that or you'll do no better than any other self-defeatist whinger, repeating what others say, anonymously.

 

[UQOchsStudent]

All this back and forth is entertaining but seems rather pointless. Everyone screaming at the top of their lungs and pitman telling us "just go through UQMS and everything will be just fine." You claim to offer some insight and then complain that the people here dont have an idea of what it is actually like to be an ochsner student. Need I point out that not only are you NOT in med school anymore but you were NEVER an ochsner student? And if you are so damned involved and know so much about our program, how come I have never seen you at any of the meetings we've had? I've been to every single one (save a couple with wilko that were only open to our official reps). So you sit there and accuse people of parroting the bad stuff they've heard without actually being a part of it and yet you sit there parroting all the good stuff without actually being a part of it. So lets do away with the screaming and get down to the facts:

1) UQ has an ethical onus to prepare us for the USMLE. We are the only cohort required to sit the exam. They were completely unaware and unprepared and dragged their feet when we started clamoring for the prep.

2) UQMS did NOTHING for us the first year and have only recently shown any interest in us. When we discussed USMLE prep the immediate response was that it should be rolled out to the entire school. Something that would dilute the resources and make implementation less likely and much harder. Why does this matter? See #1

3) In conversations with UQMS we have been told that petitioning for us in many of the things we ask for would be politically untenable.

4) We are also the only cohort with our own advisor. Professor Peter Jones is tasked with being our DIRECT representative. And he does NOT have his **** together. So why should we go through UQMS for things that are specific to OUR cohort when we have our OWN advisor to go to?? Brilliant plan pitman - add a middleman tasked with representing well over a thousand students to go to bat for a group of less than 50 to THEIR OWN ADVISOR?

5) The SoM has an ethical obligation for the welfare of all its students. Telling them clearly and definitely one thing and then completely reversing the stance 6 weeks later with no explanation is unprofessional. Doing that when they knew FULL WELL from a year before what the truth was is downright unethical. And yes, this **** affects our lives. Case in point: the first years were told that without a doubt the elective could be done anywhere, just like the rest of the 1st year cohort. Then, 6 weeks later, they were sent an email retracting that, saying that they must do it in Australia, with absolutely no additional info. Just a 4 sentence email. Then it was found out that, in fact, the SoM knew that was to be the case before the school year even started! You want to defend them pitman? And say that "it is important to keep certain details close to the chest"? That is downright despicable in my book. You dont outright LIE (yeah, you heard me again) to your class and then just jerk them around like that.

6) #5 is status quo for the way things are done at UQ. We are all looking forward to working with professionals at Ochsner.

So how about we stop the BS from people who arent actually IN the cohort (pitman, pacific) and pay attention to what the actual students are saying? To tell you the truth, I will be fine, personally. But the way the school has been acting is unprofessional at best and unethical at worst. Plus, a lot of kids are being misinformed as to what to actually expect when they get out here. Realize - you are on your own and we (the actual students in this cohort) have been busting our asses to make thinsg better for everyone.

One last testimonial before I leave for now... one of the people actually in the cohort told me that she had left a masters program early to start this since she really wanted to be a doctor. If she had known how ramshackle and roughshod this program was, she would have waited to finish her degree before coming back to it. She was mislead by the promises of mededpath and had no good info from UQ. We are trying to help ensure that doesnt happen again.

 

[pitman]

Everyone screaming at the top of their lungs and pitman telling us "just go through UQMS and everything will be just fine."

Who was "screaming"? Not me. Nor did I say to limit your actions through the UQMS. Nor did I say that everything will be just fine. If that's what you got from what I've said, you've clearly missed the point -- I debate people who make meaningless and/or illogical and/or clearly false statements. I do that for reasons that I've given all over this forum for the years I've been on it. Same reason I've advocated for students via the UQMS and beyond for almost as many years. If you don't want to take the advice, then fine, go about doing whatever it is that you've been doing to such great effect.

You claim to offer some insight and then complain that the people here dont have an idea of what it is actually like to be an ochsner student.

Neither did I ever claim anyone here does not know what it's like to be an Ochsner student. Please re-read what has been said rather than making silly inferences -- is this representative of how you come to accuse others of being liars?

Need I point out that not only are you NOT in med school anymore but you were NEVER an ochsner student? And if you are so damned involved and know so much about our program, how come I have never seen you at any of the meetings we've had? I've been to every single one (save a couple with wilko that were only open to our official reps).

Um, I am not a current student, so why would I show up at student meetings? And who is so naive to believe that only Ochsner students can or should act in Ochsner's best interests? I keep informed from the people your meetings report to, and have been to meetings that NO student reps have been to. Does that help you understand? At all?

So you sit there and accuse people of parroting the bad stuff they've heard without actually being a part of it and yet you sit there parroting all the good stuff without actually being a part of it.

I don't parrot. If you're going to assume I am parroting without listening to anything I've said, then that's unfortunate for you. I also am not merely saying positive things -- I am chiefly in this thread countering absurdities, particularly from a certain poster who has NOTHING to do with UQ or Ochsner and who, as can be seen from a simple glance at all the Australia threads (for those here who don't just fly-in, fly-out on these forums), has a habit of posting to every topic repeating only negatives which seem to support various prejudices, and been warned by the *mods* not to "school" others who know better on those respective topics...

If you think there's something in particular I've said that you want to counter specifically, asking why I think this or that, or explaining why I may be wrong, then fine. And I will either explain better, counter you, or agree with you. But it's silly to come out with generalities as above, with nothing productive to say, indeed nothing in particular to say except the odd notion that since one is not a current student, that means something and somehow supports the self-defeating attitude that you should listen only to current Ochsner students (or at least those who claim to be, on an anonymous forum) who may have been to a couple of low-level meetings. The very fact that you seem by your dismissiveness not to understand or care that there are people at other levels, advocating on your behalf, is disturbing. And counter-productive.

So lets do away with the screaming and get down to the facts:

...except you're not sticking to facts, and you sound like you're screaming (at least by how you seem to be defining it) as you proceed to repeat those same unhelpful, unfalsifiable characterizations.

 

[pitman]

1) UQ has an ethical onus to prepare us for the USMLE. We are the only cohort required to sit the exam. They were completely unaware and unprepared and dragged their feet when we started clamoring for the prep.

1) "Ethical onerus" is contentious, and a bad starting point in any negotiation. No wonder no one listens to your demands.
2) You are no more required to sit the USMLE than any non-Ochsner N. American.
3) Yes, the school has been unprepared.

2) UQMS did NOTHING for us the first year and have only recently shown any interest in us. When we discussed USMLE prep the immediate response was that it should be rolled out to the entire school. Something that would dilute the resources and make implementation less likely and much harder. Why does this matter? See #1

Have you tried to understand the reasons why it is indeed important for support to be school-wide? You're feeling that privileged, are ya? And have you looked at precedents and why they were made, such as when the SoM allowed for int'l rotations for all? And do ya think ya know how the AMC would view even the whiff of a parallel curriculum? Have you done enough homework to say you deserve an 'A'?

3) In conversations with UQMS we have been told that petitioning for us in many of the things we ask for would be politically untenable.

How general. What are you talking about? Which issue? In what respect? The UQMS is involved with getting the SoM to give more USMLE support. Is there a particular claim you want to make, a particular conversation, with any particular person, who gave a particular reason? Do you understand the virtue of the adage (dear to Wilko, mind you), choose your battles? Or could it be that you are the one being dismissive? I mean, if the System's got you down, maybe you should change it. It wasn't so hard for other int'ls to run the med soc and make changes.

4) We are also the only cohort with our own advisor. Professor Peter Jones is tasked with being our DIRECT representative. And he does NOT have his **** together. So why should we go through UQMS for things that are specific to OUR cohort when we have our OWN advisor to go to?? Brilliant plan pitman - add a middleman tasked with representing well over a thousand students to go to bat for a group of less than 50 to THEIR OWN ADVISOR?

Wow, you come to a foreign country, been here what, a year? Been to a group meeting or two? And now you think you understand how the SoM admin works? How decisions are made? Or anything about what the UQMS does, for whom, or at what levels? Grow up and get involved before thinking you can have a productive conversation on this.

5) The SoM has an ethical obligation for the welfare of all its students. Telling them clearly and definitely one thing and then completely reversing the stance 6 weeks later with no explanation is unprofessional. Doing that when they knew FULL WELL from a year before what the truth was is downright unethical. And yes, this **** affects our lives. Case in point: the first years were told that without a doubt the elective could be done anywhere, just like the rest of the 1st year cohort. Then, 6 weeks later, they were sent an email retracting that, saying that they must do it in Australia, with absolutely no additional info. Just a 4 sentence email. Then it was found out that, in fact, the SoM knew that was to be the case before the school year even started! You want to defend them pitman? And say that "it is important to keep certain details close to the chest"? That is downright despicable in my book. You dont outright LIE (yeah, you heard me again) to your class and then just jerk them around like that.

Arguing from such emotion is self-destructive. There's nothing in your rant here that can even be addressed, because you already infer that 'people' lied to you. It's classic behavior for someone who sees admin as an individual, or a collective "them", because they have no understanding how such a bureaucracy of individuals might function (or not function). The solution? Certainly not making stupid assumptions of "they are liars". Has Jane tooled you yet, where she makes you consider why maybe someone might have a negative assessment of you to see whether you're narcissistic or insightful enough to come up with reasonable alternatives?

6) #5 is status quo for the way things are done at UQ. We are all looking forward to working with professionals at Ochsner.

Yes, you speak for the Collective -- who does that?

So how about we stop the BS from people who arent actually IN the cohort (pitman, pacific) and pay attention to what the actual students are saying? To tell you the truth, I will be fine, personally.

1) Point out the BS, oh Holy One. Or at least where I have said something that only an Ochsner student should.
2) If you'll be fine, then stop your whingeing.

Realize - you are on your own and we (the actual students in this cohort) have been busting our asses to make thinsg better for everyone.

Yeah, you been mighty altruistic, eh?

 

[UQOchsStudent]

Ethical onus... not onerus. Contentious? You feel that the school does NOT have an ethical onus towards its students?

And I can see why you would think so, but I (we) are not so stupid as to sit down at a meeting and start that as our opening bid. We've played the game the way it is supposed to be played and gotten burned.

And now you belie your actual ivory tower stance towards this program and how little you know about what is actually going on. Yes, we ARE required to sit the USMLE and we ARE required to sit it before 3rd year starts. Is that an AMC ruling? Or UQ? Or even a US federal statute like it is for American students? No. It is a requisite from Ochsner as part of the partnership agreement. Why do you think that the recently finished 2nd years have their first rotation off to study for the exam? Or did you even know that? Yeah, that's right - the SoM shafted the 2nd year students by jumping a surprise placement on them that no one was even told would be a POSSIBILITY until mid september. Flights had to be changed, arrangements made, and ultimately it would have given just about 5 weeks for the students to move to New Orleans, sit the exam, and start 3rd year. What did the SoM say? Basically that the students should be able to manage that just fine. What did Ochsner say? That they would make the first rotation of year 3 a special study time to allow the students time to actually be with their families, move to a new city in a different country, study for, sit the exam, and succeed. And that was WITHOUT the students asking for this - they stepped up with that as a solution because they realized how incredibly unfair and arduous the situation was. Once again, I'll say that the SoM's official stance was that they understood it would be a pain but that we would manage.

The school being unprepared is putting it mildly. You seem to act like they had no onus to actually BE prepared for the program they were starting. But even worse is that once we students figured out that they were unprepared we offered to help and have written great statement papers offering guidelines, ideas, etc etc... and the school was about as responsive as a drunk with a head lac.

I fully understand why certain aspects need to be school wide. And yes, we DO feel privileged. We have paid more than any other student in the history of the school. We are part of a separate program with different goals and intentions. So yes, we do get to have our own privileged say in things when it pertains to requirements ONLY of us. You want us to act and be just like the rest of the student population - well then we should be TREATED like the rest of the student population. We should not have extra placements imposed upon us, special restrictions for our electives, pay extra tuition, or have a requirement to sit the USMLE that is NOT in place for other students. Keep dreaming pitman - we act differently and demand different things BECAUSE THE SCHOOL IS TREATING US DIFFERENTLY!! You make these claims that we are "just a UQ program giving [us] extra US exposure." That is BS - then Australians and Canadians would be allowed to opt to pay the extra and join our program - they can't. You must be a US citizen. Did you know that? Did you know any of these things about how we are being treated differently and have different requirements, restrictions, and extras in order to graduate? If you did, then you should know better than to claim we are just like the general population. If you didn't - then you better get hip to this stuff before spouting off about how much you know about this program.

So yes, I do deserve an 'A' for my homework.

Yes, that is a general statement - to discuss the particulars of such conversations would be, well, politically untenable. Suffice it to say, that for the purposes of this forum it is a point about the use of UQMS. You can choose not to believe what I have to say. That is up to you.

We can quibble over "how things are done" all day. We did that all year in Oz. That was not the point of these posts or this forum. The point was to inform about how ill prepared, poorly managed, and completely unprofessional the SoM has been.

You are right - I should not speak to "the collective" - the collective is comprised of exactly the following people - David Wilkinson, Peter Jones, and Sue-Ellen Hogan. Those are the only people involved with the first 2 years of the UQ-Ochsner program. Wilko holds all the cards. Jones drops the cards and fumbles around like an idiot. Sue-Ellen is a very nice person who does a great job being Jones' secretary.

As for coming up with reasonable alternatives... yes, we have tried. But yeah, maybe I am stupid enough to have not gone to any meetings, diddled around all year in la-la land, and then decided at the end of the year to try and change things with the school by taking my time to post **** up on this forum. Or maybe, just maybe, we have tried all these things and seen half-assed changes at best. And seen how mededpath still keeps misleading people. And seen how my classmates have lamented their choice saying they would have still loved to do this program, but had they known it was in such shambles they would have waited another year or two. And seen classmates who got accepted to a US school and jumped ship, or jumped ship to the general UQ population where they do actually get good representation via UQMS. Or seen people now begging to join the general UQ population and being denied.

So please, stop giving advice on this forum as to how to deal with the SoM and UQMS. This is not the place to try and learn the system - this is the place to give the REAL story of what is ACTUALLY going on. You must really think me stupid to assume I have been posting up here to try and get policy moved through the UQMS. Yes, you are right, this has been an emotional whinge fest. But moreso it was an opportunity to let people see just how roughshod and [poorly slapped together this program is so they have something other than the mededpath propaganda to go off of.

Perhaps you would like to say how I am wrong about all the requirements imposed on us? How really, I don't HAVE to do this crap the SoM is telling me to do. Sheesh.

 

[pitman]

Ethical onus... not onerus. Contentious? You feel that the school does NOT have an ethical onus towards its students?

Ethical onus is onerous. I thought it amusing.

Wrt the USMLE, correct. I think they *should* prepare students better (and advocate for that), but that is very different. Is that unique? No, it is not -- you might want to spend some time with students at one of the new Australian med schools to see how much they struggle to have ANY say on admin/curriculum issues (only to lose accreditation, as has happened). The difference? The med socs, for one. The personalities, for another.

And I can see why you would think so, but I (we) are not so stupid as to sit down at a meeting and start that as our opening bid. We've played the game the way it is supposed to be played and gotten burned.

The thing is, I have seen a lot of how "the game" has been played, and how insufficient that has been. You have seen, what, a meeting? A bitch fest? You come on here and claim "This is how it is..." when you aren't even privvy to the personalities, the conversations and the meetings where they would have originated, and then you have the gall to claim others who may have been to such meetings and talked to those people don't have any idea what's going on?? Dude, pull your head out. If all you were doing was claiming, "hey, I'm Ochsner, and this is what I see and don't like...", then fine. But you don't. You can't help but get wound up and make emotion-driven allusions about people you don't know who are involved in behind-the-scenes processes (let alone the overt ones) you keep demonstrating you know little about. That does nothing for you, the program, or even your own purported purpose for being here on this forum.

And now you belie your actual ivory tower stance towards this program and how little you know about what is actually going on. Yes, we ARE required to sit the USMLE and we ARE required to sit it before 3rd year starts. Is that an AMC ruling? Or UQ? Or even a US federal statute like it is for American students? No. It is a requisite from Ochsner as part of the partnership agreement. Why do you think that the recently finished 2nd years have their first rotation off to study for the exam? Or did you even know that?

Yes, I did know all that (except the US federal statute part is wrong -- as said, you can always look up federal laws...). What is it that I don't know about the program, one more time?

Yes, it sucks that you are now subject to the same rule that most American schools impose on their students. More broadly, just as any American at UQ has to take the USMLE to get anywhere once they graduate. So what's your response? Wait, wasn't it to ask for more time to study, dedicated time, which Ochsner students subsequently (and exclusively) got??

Is the only purpose of your posts to whinge about the program, or is it to be more effective at changing things? Oh wait, read below, it IS admittedly just for you to whinge, and to dismiss advice from others who've been around the blocks which, oh my, *could* actually help@$#%!^? You think ya know THAT much about a system as a non-privileged, non-representative outsider after a year? So much that you're willing to sacrifice the very change you claim you've "busted your ass" over for the sake of future Ochsner cohorts?

What did the SoM say? Basically that the students should be able to manage that just fine. What did Ochsner say? That they would make the first rotation of year 3 a special study time to allow the students time to actually be with their families, move to a new city in a different country, study for, sit the exam, and succeed. And that was WITHOUT the students asking for this - they stepped up with that as a solution because they realized how incredibly unfair and arduous the situation was.

You're being naive. Ochsner and the SoM work on policy together, and they communicate. Ochsner cannot unilaterally change its curriculum to "correct" some UQ wrong -- such decisions must be, and are, made together.

You have instead given an example of how the program HAS BEEN RESPONSIVE -- to the need for USMLE prep time, which the SoM took seriously (which I have independently brought up in meeting with Wilko myself. Hint. Hint.).

The school being unprepared is putting it mildly. You seem to act like they had no onus to actually BE prepared for the program they were starting.

I never implied that. I think they should have been more prepared. Happy now?

And yes, we DO feel privileged. We have paid more than any other student in the history of the school. We are part of a separate program with different goals and intentions. So yes, we do get to have our own privileged say in things when it pertains to requirements ONLY of us. You want us to act and be just like the rest of the student population - well then we should be TREATED like the rest of the student population. We should not have extra placements imposed upon us, special restrictions for our electives, pay extra tuition, or have a requirement to sit the USMLE that is NOT in place for other students.

To the extent that two campuses can have the same policies, they will and must. As to restrictions on clinicals -- no UQ Australia students are allowed to take anywhere near as many non-Qld rotations as the Ochsner students will. It sucks not to be able to do one outside of Ochsner + UQ, but treating you like the "rest of the student population" would mean not being able to do your clinical years in the US in the first place!

Keep dreaming pitman - we act differently and demand different things BECAUSE THE SCHOOL IS TREATING US DIFFERENTLY!! You make these claims that we are "just a UQ program giving [us] extra US exposure." That is BS - then Australians and Canadians would be allowed to opt to pay the extra and join our program - they can't. You must be a US citizen. Did you know that? Did you know any of these things about how we are being treated differently and have different requirements, restrictions, and extras in order to graduate?

Keep dreaming what? You're making up things I never said or even implied. And yes, I did know. Why do you insist on making such simplistic assumptions about people you don't know? Like that UQ admin is lying to you? Are you paranoid, narcissistic, or what?

If you did, then you should know better than to claim we are just like the general population.

You're attempting to put words into my mouth. What I've been claiming is, rules and privileges should not be expected to be exclusive to you unless absolutely necessary (or trivial). You flat out assert that the SoM should have put together a mini- USMLE support structure for you, rather than design one correctly for all from the start, completely dismissing any point of view or consideration except "I pay more and am privileged".

I also claim, the UQMS is your representation, and the higher up the UQMS you can convince or get, the better for you. The UQMS routinely supports subsets of its students (down to the individual), and there's nothing inherently different with Ochsner in this regard. To think and act otherwise will -- and arguably and anecdotally has -- shot you in the foot. Bummer mindset. For you.

If you didn't - then you better get hip to this stuff before spouting off about how much you know about this program.

So far, despite your assumptions you haven't shown anything I don't know which you do, and I have shown some things you don't. And yet, you are Ochsner while I am not.

Yes, that is a general statement - to discuss the particulars of such conversations would be, well, politically untenable. Suffice it to say, that for the purposes of this forum it is a point about the use of UQMS. You can choose not to believe what I have to say. That is up to you.

Hm. Particulars would be "politically untenable" but making sweeping accusations that UQ admin peeps are liars is not? Nice.

The point was to inform about how ill prepared, poorly managed, and completely unprofessional the SoM has been.

So the point (and you speak for all Ochsner students who have posted here, of course) is just to whinge and tell people how bad you think things are? And you're doing this...out of the kindness of your heart?

You are right - I should not speak to "the collective" - the collective is comprised of exactly the following people - David Wilkinson, Peter Jones, and Sue-Ellen Hogan. Those are the only people involved with the first 2 years of the UQ-Ochsner program. Wilko holds all the cards. Jones drops the cards and fumbles around like an idiot. Sue-Ellen is a very nice person who does a great job being Jones' secretary.

All I can say here is, how unfortunate for someone to think this. You really believe all you see is all there is?

And seen classmates who got accepted to a US school and jumped ship, or jumped ship to the general UQ population where they do actually get good representation via UQMS.

Anyone who joins an int'l program with the express intent of getting back to the US would be a fool not to consider leaving said program if/when they get accepted to a US school. This has been the case for N. Americans all over Australia for years. As to the fact that many Ochsner students are upset with aspects of the program, no argument here. No one denied that, which is why it's so bizarre that you claim they have, and think the UQMS hasn't been advocating for you. Can they do better? I guess you'll never know, 'cause you're dismissive of the whole process and have opted to insulate yourself from those more involved with it.

So please, stop giving advice on this forum as to how to deal with the SoM and UQMS. This is not the place to try and learn the system - this is the place to give the REAL story of what is ACTUALLY going on. You must really think me stupid to assume I have been posting up here to try and get policy moved through the UQMS. Yes, you are right, this has been an emotional whinge fest. But moreso it was an opportunity to let people see just how roughshod and [poorly slapped together this program is so they have something other than the mededpath propaganda to go off of.

YOUR story of what's ACTUALLY going on?

If you were more objective, or weren't blatantly wrong on so many things, I might not have responded to your posts. The truth is, you bury it amongst the rest, at the same time (admittedly) with no interest in advice on how to make improvements, claiming that you understand the system, that you've tried everything, and all that's left is for you to whinge/spread the word.

You don't have to take anyone's advice, that's for sure. But ya know what? You're not the only one here. You don't speak for Ochsner students by invoking "we" and claiming defeat. One can't sit there and say with a straight face, "The point of this here thread is [for me] to whinge". Unless one's narcissistic.

Perhaps you would like to say how I am wrong about all the requirements imposed on us? How really, I don't HAVE to do this crap the SoM is telling me to do. Sheesh.

No. I have never made such a claim, and I read and address what you actually say.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

Anyone who joins an int'l program with the express intent of getting back to the US would be a fool not to consider leaving said program if/when they get accepted to a US school. This has been the case for N. Americans all over Australia for years. As to the fact that many Ochsner students are upset with aspects of the program, no argument here. No one denied that, which is why it's so bizarre that you claim they have, and think the UQMS hasn't been advocating for you. Can they do better? I guess you'll never know, 'cause you're dismissive of the whole process and have opted to insulate yourself from those more involved with it.

I actually got into two US medical schools, both MD schools in the midwest, but decided to go to USyd, but however I got in through the local pool which mean paying only HECS fees. Obviously its a lot easier to get a medical degree stateside and work in the US. But I had no intention of working in the US. The closest thing to what America offers to a lifestyle like Oz is California which these days is not so great.

 

[tarraljana]

I suspect Pitman is a troll. Or better yet one of the faculty in disguise!
Look the New York Times even wrote an article about him -

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/opinion/30zhuo.html?_r=1&hpw

 

[SNu]

What are the 3 special requirements of UQ/Ochsner students? From what I know, the first year, 4 week elective must be done at UQ. Also, your 8 week elective during 4th year must also be done at UQ. What is the other requirement? Am I accurate with the electives and are there any other requirements?

 

[SNu]

So I turned down USyd for this program even though I felt that I would be on my own for USMLE prep. However, I keep hearing from frustrated students and am nervous about my chances of success. First and foremost I want to be a competent doctor, secondly I would like to be a competent doctor in the US. For the current students, knowing what you know now, would you have made the same decision and still chosen UQ-Ochsner?

 

[pitman]

I suspect Pitman is a troll. Or better yet one of the faculty in disguise!

You're hilarious, newbie. Maybe you're a med student somewhere.

 

[feliberti20]

Well it is now official that the program is accredited and I cannot be happier!! WOOHOO!!!

I know it sounds like I am marketing the program but I also found out that I also officially passed 1st year (not like there was a doubt but still nice to hear it officially).

I think many people in this forum are losing their perspective so I will offer mine.

I am Navy veteran with 2 service medals for both wars in Iraq (this one not '91) and Afghanistan. I never traveled over their but I did support services for them in Maryland that earned my base a service medal.

During this time very few things were considered fair or just and the hours we had to put in in preparation for WAR were over 100+ per week for months (5-6, but it felt like forever). It was arduous times that precipitated a bad marriage into an ugly divorce. I spirraled down the drain so to speak for several years until I got my act together and here I am.

So with that scarred in my mind forever and how much it truly SUCKED (to forego eloquence). I feel privileged and blessed to be part of the program. I call "growing pains" anythin less than war and divorce crap that I went thru once (NEVER AGAIN). I do this not to understate that there has been miscommunications and a cultural difference in how things are done here and how we are use to things in America. BUT I do not take it personally, I find it as a hurdle that has to be jump. I am always a glass half full kind of guy.

A lot of things have been said in this forum and it would take hours to refute or confirm all of them so this is the bottom line.

You will graduate in a top 100 institution in clinical medicine in THE WORLD with clinical exposure to aboriginal health and at Ochsner which is a top 5% (or10%) hospital in the USA. I find that this will be a truly amazing experience.

WHy do I say this?
I have said that my time during the wartime sucked big time BUT looking back I now truly appreciate many things and serving my country. Not many people can say that, just as not many people will be able to say that they were the pioneering trailblazers to be part of the UQ/OCS program.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[SNu]

Will one of the current students please clearly state what the special requirements are for the UQ-Ochsner cohort? It would do a world of good for anyone thinking of applying to the program. I'm committed, but would love to know what I have to look forward to.

 

[pitman]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=779365

 

[vella1286]

SNu - Sorry this has worried you bro. I will try to give you an
unbiased account. hopefully this helps.

The special requirements for Ochsner students are

1 - We have to do our first year elective in Australia
2 - We have to a 4 week Aboriginal health elective at the end of second year
3 - We have to come back to Australia from New Orleans in fourth year
for 1 rotation (8 weeks)

UQ told us these requirments were needed r to get the
program accredited with the Australian medical council. The students
basically accept that, but we question a few things.

1 - Regarding the first year elective, we are the only students who
are required to remain in Australia. All other students can go
anywhere in the world for it. Also, this requirement was not told to
the first years until half way through first semester this year. Many
already had plans to travel abroa, but had to
cancel the plans.
2 - Regarding the second year elective, UQ has put it right in the
middle of our study period for USMLE step 1. When Ochsner found out,
they gave the current second years the first two months in 3rd year off so they could study for the exam. This does not mean future
cohorts may be so lucky. The other thing about this placement is that
UQ did not tell the second year students about it until Sept. So the
second years felt extremely disrespected because they weren't told of the
requirement even though UQ had put it in the proposal themselves.
3 - The fourth year rotation in Australia is just a bargaining chip to
satisfy the accrediting board. UQ has admitted it serves no academic
purpose. Also, the students are worried about the cost. As of now students bear the whole cost themselves. UQ hasn't stated any wish to assist
financially. Most students think coming back for 2 months will cost at
somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000 dollars US, which is a lot when you realize that is 10% of the tuition for the whole year.

I hope this helps.

About USMLE prep, UQ does provide several good resources, all in
second year, none in first year. But what Mededpath says on its site
is exaggerated (typical for Mededpath). There is no person overseeing
the program. The tutors are just students in third or fourth year,
usually Canadians. Also, most of us feel that UQ has failed to realize
how big a deal the step 1 is, how much study time you need for it,
what the consequences are if you get a bad score. If they understood
in the way American med schools understand, UQ would'nt have put the
Aboriginal elective right in the middle of our study time.

Remember to get in touch with some of the students before you get here.

 

[brittb81]

I know Ive been gone a while... love the Sunny Coast! But wanted to
comment on a couple things mentioned a while ago.

UQMS has been mentioned as a supporter of students... I dont see how
UQMS represents the international students much at all.
We had all of two internatinoal info nights this year... If there were
more I didnt hear about them. Meanwhile the faculty plotted
ninja style (ie without informing the students) to
scrap our elective in 4th Year and replace it with critical care,
which will make a quality rotation in its own right... but is not even
close to worth sacrificing our elective for. (Note to future UQ
students, esp intenationals: You just heard right. UQ is scrapping our
elective rotation in 4th Year. There goes our best chance to go home
for a rotation to get exposure to a speciality and try to get close
with residency programs.)

Where was the UQMS on that? They were mum... because the change will
allegedly benefit Aussies who dont choose specialites until theyre a
few years out of med school, in contrast to N Americans who have to choose
before they finish med school. The elective was our best shot at
residencies. Now it's gone... and no one at UQ is crying for the
internationals. Did someone say UQ is a global medical school? Not
when it comes to curriculum decisions...

Then there's us, the Ochsner students. We have one representative who
is on a token committee on UQMS, and as weve discussed, the
internationals arent genuinely listened to anyway. Our rep does a
great job for us, bleeds for us, but its hard to reach a faculty that doesnt see any reason to listen. Prob why a bunch of us are bitching on this thread.
I admit that much. And by the way... UQOchsnerStudent is right about
our faculty. Theres no defending them.

However much UQ and UQMS say they have an international focus, the
record of change to the curriculum points in the opposite direction.
Would my decision to come here have been affected had I known this a
year ago? Yes

 

[PacificBlue2012]

I know Ive been gone a while... love the Sunny Coast! But wanted to
comment on a couple things mentioned a while ago.

UQMS has been mentioned as a supporter of students... I dont see how
UQMS represents the international students much at all.
We had all of two internatinoal info nights this year... If there were
more I didnt hear about them. Meanwhile the faculty plotted
ninja style (ie without informing the students) to
scrap our elective in 4th Year and replace it with critical care,
which will make a quality rotation in its own right... but is not even
close to worth sacrificing our elective for. (Note to future UQ
students, esp intenationals: You just heard right. UQ is scrapping our
elective rotation in 4th Year. There goes our best chance to go home
for a rotation to get exposure to a speciality and try to get close
with residency programs.)

Where was the UQMS on that? They were mum... because the change will
allegedly benefit Aussies who dont choose specialites until theyre a
few years out of med school, in contrast to N Americans who have to choose
before they finish med school. The elective was our best shot at
residencies. Now it's gone... and no one at UQ is crying for the
internationals. Did someone say UQ is a global medical school? Not
when it comes to curriculum decisions...

Then there's us, the Ochsner students. We have one representative who
is on a token committee on UQMS, and as weve discussed, the
internationals arent genuinely listened to anyway. Our rep does a
great job for us, bleeds for us, but its hard to reach a faculty that doesnt see any reason to listen. Prob why a bunch of us are bitching on this thread.
I admit that much. And by the way... UQOchsnerStudent is right about
our faculty. Theres no defending them.

However much UQ and UQMS say they have an international focus, the
record of change to the curriculum points in the opposite direction.
Would my decision to come here have been affected had I known this a
year ago? Yes

Sydney is trying to be "international" as well but that being said, I doubt there will ever be a similar program at Sydney. Also the number of Americans at Usyd has always been tiny, easily dwarfed by the Canadians. Most of the students who are international in the regular UQ program are Canadian as well?

By the way Britt, might as well try to apply to a DO school and go back home. You will save yourself a ton of headaches. You will be shocked at what people miss when they go down under.

I actually met a few North Americans who came here because they did not want to become DOs. I really wonder about their logic and sanity because its only letters on your labcoat. DO students despite the letters will have a much easier time getting a residency than an IMG.

Also its foolish to assume that a foreign school whose main mission is to train doctors for a foreign country is going to prepare you to work in the States or Canada is foolish, even if they promise it like this program has done. I have had classmates who have gone back and gotten into decent residencies but it took a ton of self initiative to do it.

That being said Australian medical schools including UQ are excellent medical schools. If you think otherwise, look up the fact that 11 Aussies have Nobel Prizes in Medicine. Also one of the best heart surgeons in America, a professor at Baylor, is a Sydney alumni.

Look up in particular Peter Doherty, who is now at ANU, he went to UQ.

 

[zeph]

UQMS has been mentioned as a supporter of students... I dont see how
UQMS represents the international students much at all.
We had all of two internatinoal info nights this year... If there were
more I didnt hear about them. Meanwhile the faculty plotted
ninja style (ie without informing the students) to
scrap our elective in 4th Year and replace it with critical care,
which will make a quality rotation in its own right... but is not even
close to worth sacrificing our elective for. (Note to future UQ
students, esp intenationals: You just heard right. UQ is scrapping our
elective rotation in 4th Year. There goes our best chance to go home
for a rotation to get exposure to a speciality and try to get close
with residency programs.)

Where was the UQMS on that? They were mum... because the change will
allegedly benefit Aussies who dont choose specialites until theyre a
few years out of med school, in contrast to N Americans who have to choose
before they finish med school. The elective was our best shot at
residencies. Now it's gone... and no one at UQ is crying for the
internationals. Did someone say UQ is a global medical school? Not
when it comes to curriculum decisions...

Then there's us, the Ochsner students. We have one representative who
is on a token committee on UQMS, and as weve discussed, the
internationals arent genuinely listened to anyway. Our rep does a
great job for us, bleeds for us, but its hard to reach a faculty that doesnt see any reason to listen. Prob why a bunch of us are bitching on this thread.

I think that's a bit unfair. UQMS is an annually elected representative body not some fixed object. We have more than some token, we have an international subcommittee we elected, and if we're not represented how we like then that means our international reps aren't doing their job in committee and it's our responsibility to change it/them so that we are.

Also the UQMS from what I understand has made more positive changes for international students than anyone else. Maybe I'm only hearing propaganda, but things like allowing overseas rotations in the first place and increasing the internship priority for us were done for international interests. Also I think UQMS had a hand in reducing the moratorium.

I also don't know where you're getting the UQMS stance on electives to slam them on that. I think it's the opposite! From the UQMS Submission for the 2009 Review of the MBBS Program right off their own website:

"4.5 ...The current elective rotation of 8 weeks introduces an element of flexibility into the program by providing students with an opportunity to explore the practice of medicine in a location and field of their choice. This aspect of the course should not be altered. To complement the elective rotation, the UQMS suggests the School consider introducing a selective block into the MBBS program."

http://uqms.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=0&Itemid=320

Lastly, you didn't hear right! UQ isn't proposing to scrap the elective at all. The school's review can be found off of the UQMS site here:

http://uqms.org/content/view/739/320/

 

[Dean UQ Medicin]

I really welcome student feedback about our program. It is important to me to really know how students are experiencing their time with us. I have been around long enough to know that we can't please everyone all the time, but we are keen to do our best for the majority. Let me try and clarify some of the concerns raised here. First the curriculum changes that will occur in Years 3 and 4 of the UQ MBBS will happen in 2013, so they will not affect any current student. Second I have written to all incoming students in the 2011 class advising them of the planned changes for 2013. Third all North American students will be able to choose from any of the core clinical rotations in Years 3 and 4 to spend them in Canada or the US with one of our partners (currently our rules allow 2 core rotations and 1 elective, but these rules will be reviewed). Fourth, we are actually expanding the number of electives and the electives time in our program: details are still being worked out but we plan 3 electives at the end of Years 1, 2 and 3. Oh, and last but not least in the debate around what curriculum changes might occur in Years 3 and 4, UQMS were consulted repeatedly, and supported the final position. Best wishes.

 

[LindsayL]

Hello everyone, I have recently been accepted to both the UQ-Ochsner program and the Sydney program. I really don't want to be involved with any of the drama on this website, I just want some advice from current students of the respective programs.

First, I have gotten into US med school programs as well, but I have heard that it is very difficult to work in Australia if you don't study there and I want to keep my options open to work in either the US or Australia (given the economy of the US). From what I have read on this forum and others, It will be very difficult for students from the Ochsner program to obtain internships in Australia. For the current students of that program: do you believe this to be true and is it also still true that you are only allowed to do your rotations (outside of the 4th year Australian rotation) within the Ochsner system?

I am just fine with the fact that I won't get much help with the USMLE at either school. Also, I am aware that neither program guarantees internships in Australia, but how difficult is it really for the respective programs? Is it relatively possible for an international student to get into an Australian internship who graduates from the respective programs with honors?

Any responses and contacts with people from either of the programs would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[jaketheory]

First, I have gotten into US med school programs as well, but I have heard that it is very difficult to work in Australia if you don't study there and I want to keep my options open to work in either the US or Australia (given the economy of the US). From what I have read on this forum and others, It will be very difficult for students from the Ochsner program to obtain internships in Australia. For the current students of that program: do you believe this to be true and is it also still true that you are only allowed to do your rotations (outside of the 4th year Australian rotation) within the Ochsner system?

how difficult is it really for the respective programs? Is it relatively possible for an international student to get into an Australian internship who graduates from the respective programs with honors?

you seriously should not consider studying in Australia as a route to being able to work here. you would come in right at the peak of the medical tsunami all but guaranteeing you will not be able to stay for internship. you will pay boat loads in international fees and then be forced to return to the US where you will have to compete for residency as a lowly IMG.

i had the same dilemna. i concluded it was not worth coming over as an international student. instead i was just going to do the US med school route (i'm a US citizen). however, i then found a way to get Australian PR. you could potentially get PR while an international student, but I would strongly advise against starting medicine as an international student with the expectation of getting PR if you have not first THOROUGHLY investigated what is required to get PR. You should also be aware that visa requirements can change on a whim. you may come here thinking you can get a visa based on current criteria and then while on the plane over here they change the rules assuring you cannot get that visa. in my opinion its a risk not worth taking.

if you had failed to get into a US schools on multiple attempts, i'd say come to Aus, but you have offers in the US. Either take those US offers and accept it being unlikely you'd work in Aus (though anything is possible if you set your heart on it) or get PR, prefereably before applying to medicine.

 

[neulite30]

I'm an American as well, studying at UQ, but not in the Ochsner program. Australia is a fantastic place to live and I love it. I had your intentions before moving here but now I'm in my third year and I'm realizing the residency training programs in the US are just a smarter choice. The length of time to train is half than that here in Australia.

So yes, I highly recommend coming here to study, then go back to the states to train. After it's all said and done you will have an Australian medical degree with an American residency under your belt. This means you won't have to sit the AMC exam that foreign trained doctors take if/when you decide to come back to oz to live. Your residency training will be recognized here in Australia as well, and depending on the speciality, you will be exempt from many specialist exams (because lets face it, US residency programs are highly, highly regarded in the world). This also means you can have the option of working in the states too....you know, when our economy gets better PR is always an option when you come to work here as a physician.

So yeah, my advice is to keep those options open. I wouldn't recommend doing the Australian POST-graduate programs, they're far too long (~6 years) and you will have a difficult time going home if you choose to in the future.

Your biggest hurdle: adequate prep for the USMLEs. But, that's a separate diatribe.

 

[jaketheory]

I had your intentions before moving here but now I'm in my third year and I'm realizing the residency training programs in the US are just a smarter choice. The length of time to train is half than that here in Australia.

So yes, I highly recommend coming here to study, then go back to the states to train. After it's all said and done you will have an Australian medical degree with an American residency under your belt. This means you won't have to sit the AMC exam that foreign trained doctors take if/when you decide to come back to oz to live. Your residency training will be recognized here in Australia as well, and depending on the speciality, you will be exempt from many specialist exams (because lets face it, US residency programs are highly, highly regarded in the world). This also means you can have the option of working in the states too....you know, when our economy gets better PR is always an option when you come to work here as a physician.

So yeah, my advice is to keep those options open. I wouldn't recommend doing the Australian POST-graduate programs, they're far too long (~6 years) and you will have a difficult time going home if you choose to in the future.\.

if your goal is to do a US residency, you should go for the US medical school, for which you already have an offer. In doing an Aus med degree followed by a US residency, you will not be in any better position to work in Australia so make the most of it by going to US med school. By doing so you'd have more options for US residency. Furthermore, if you do Aus med degree and then US residency, you will still have to work under supervision in Aus for one year to gain registration because you will have not completed an Aus internship.

And not all training programs are 6 years here. GP is 3 just like in the US. Internal medicine requires 6 here, but that is because it requires subspecilisation with general internal medicine being considered a subspecialty here. To train as a cardiologist or gastroenterologist takes 6 years here just as it does in the US. Other specialties that can be completed in the US in 4 years will take 5 years here. And if you have completed a residency in the US that is shorter duration that the equivalent program here and then try to move here, not only willl they make you take the fellowship exam, they will also likely make you complete additional training. Furthermore, even if you do complete training of the same length, you are likely to have to take the fellowship exam anyway. Unlike in the US, where virtually everyone passes the specialty board exams, many specialty fellowship exams in Aus have a failure rate of ~50%.

 

[Ludlow]

Hey all, I have a similar situation. I was just accepted to the UQ-Ochsner program for this January. I applied to MD and DO schools, so far I have only heard from a few and have an interview at one, but I am afraid that I won't really know anything by the time i will have to pack up my family and go. I am a non traditional, with a 3 year old son, and love the promise of this program. I think it would be a gift to broaden the borders of my sons dreams while pursuing my own, and my wife's field of architecture is booming in Brisbane. I also don't want to wait another year in case I don't get in anywhere else this year. But honestly, some of what is written on this forum scares me a bit. I think I will get into a US school, but I am not really concerned about prestige, but I do want to make sure that I get a US residency, and am able to practice when we return to the states.

Basically, is it a fair bet that doing well in this program will lead to a residency in the US? I am hoping to work in Emergency Medicine, or as a GP.
Sorry for the meandering post!
I would appreciate any current students advice, and especially any who might have come over with a family in tow.
Thanks!

 

[jaketheory]

Hey all, I have a similar situation. I was just accepted to the UQ-Ochsner program for this January. I applied to MD and DO schools, so far I have only heard from a few and have an interview at one, but I am afraid that I won't really know anything by the time i will have to pack up my family and go. I am a non traditional, with a 3 year old son, and love the promise of this program. I think it would be a gift to broaden the borders of my sons dreams while pursuing my own, and my wife's field of architecture is booming in Brisbane. I also don't want to wait another year in case I don't get in anywhere else this year. But honestly, some of what is written on this forum scares me a bit. I think I will get into a US school, but I am not really concerned about prestige, but I do want to make sure that I get a US residency, and am able to practice when we return to the states.

Basically, is it a fair bet that doing well in this program will lead to a residency in the US? I am hoping to work in Emergency Medicine, or as a GP.
Sorry for the meandering post!
I would appreciate any current students advice, and especially any who might have come over with a family in tow.
Thanks!

the different semester start dates is a real issue to consider. if you take the Australian route you have to decide before you even know whether or not you get an offer in the US. if you make the move to Aus and then get in at a US school you can move back after 1st semester, but what a pain, especially if you have a family with children.

you said you think you'll get in to a US school. my advice would be not to go overseas for medicine until after you have exhausted the US options. Get through the US MD and DO admissions round and if you don't get in, reapply. if you still dont get in, then consider overseas. whats another year or 2. the more times you reapply, the more likely you are to get in. there are people that got in on their 5 time applying. don't give up. you will have more residency option in the US with a US degree.

if you do end up at an Aus school, getting a US GP residency shouldnt be too difficult. I am not too informed about how competitive emergency medicine.

 

[neulite30]

Unlike in the US, where virtually everyone passes the specialty board exams, many specialty fellowship exams in Aus have a failure rate of ~50%.

I can guess why this is the case.

 

[jaketheory]

I can guess why this is the case.

so what would be your guess?

 

[Rhandhali]

Hello everyone, I have recently been accepted to both the UQ-Ochsner program and the Sydney program. I really don't want to be involved with any of the drama on this website, I just want some advice from current students of the respective programs.

First, I have gotten into US med school programs as well, but I have heard that it is very difficult to work in Australia if you don't study there and I want to keep my options open to work in either the US or Australia (given the economy of the US). From what I have read on this forum and others, It will be very difficult for students from the Ochsner program to obtain internships in Australia. For the current students of that program: do you believe this to be true and is it also still true that you are only allowed to do your rotations (outside of the 4th year Australian rotation) within the Ochsner system?

I am just fine with the fact that I won't get much help with the USMLE at either school. Also, I am aware that neither program guarantees internships in Australia, but how difficult is it really for the respective programs? Is it relatively possible for an international student to get into an Australian internship who graduates from the respective programs with honors?

Any responses and contacts with people from either of the programs would be greatly appreciated!!

I'm an Ochsner student who just finished up the first year and am three days into my elective here in Brisbane at the Royal Brisbane Hospital.

There are alot of things to consider.

1 - How much is your time worth? Going to Australia lets you start in January, as opposed to waiting a year. Also see the point about specialties.

2 - Money. Unless I'm mistaken, Sydney is going to assess your tuition in Australian dollars. That's fine when the exchange rate is .60 US to 1AUD. That's obviously not the case now. US medical schools, and the Ochsner program (ONLY the Ochsner program - if you are at UQ and not in the Ochsner program you pay in Australian dollars) will assess your frees in US dollars. That was great for us this year when the AUD was more valuable than the USD. We lost out a bit on our cost of living loan, but it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

3 - Employment Opportunities. We were flat out told by David Wilkinson, the head of the school of medicine that we would not be able to find internship slots here when we graduate. That was in March of this year. Your mileage may vary, but I'm not holding my breath because I personally don't want to go out to some place like Mt Isa, way out in the middle of nowhere, just to work here.

4 - Specialty. Specialty training in Australia is much, much longer than in the US. I'm a little fuzzy on the details but to actually start specialty training longer by as many as four years here. It is also much harder to get into a specialty program of any sort, at least as far as I know. "Residents" in Australia are basically Intern+, you do an internship year (away from whatever your residency is, you bounce around a lot apparently) and then spend two or three years as a resident (once again, bouncing around) before you start specialty training which is the equivalent of the American residency. It is a long, long track and it's actually easier for Australians to get into American residency programs than it is for them to get into their own programs.

5- USMLE. Non American schools don't teach to the USMLE like American schools do. This should come as no surprise. UQ does NOT prepare you for the USMLE at all and if you don't go out of your way to study on your own you will either fail or do poorly on the exam. Furthermore, as an Ochsner student you are required to sit the USMLE. In light of this, the school has provided us with some study materials such as First Aid, Kaplan Qbank and some online question banks. We also have weekly, Ochsner-only USMLE tutorials starting in the first year. First year tutorials are run by second year Ochsner students while tutorials for second years are run by tutors hired by the School of Medicine. I cannot speak for what Sydney provides you.

Ochsner does give you the advantage of starting sooner and giving you a US clinical education which will be invaluable in applying for US residencies which are your best bet as an American citizen. Don't worry about whether or not you'll be able to work in Australia when you're done; once you have finished residency you're going to be welcome pretty much anywhere as a fully trained, ready to practice physician. Whether or not you got your MD or MBBS at a school in the US or Australia shouldn't matter.

Personally my plan is to finish here, do my residency and specialty training in the US and then consider coming back here to work.

I think Ochsner is a great program but you will have a degree from the University of Queensland and will thus be a foreign medical graduate with all that entails.I would say stick with the US medical schools if you have the acceptance in hand. That being said, we did have three or four students who came to Ochsner and were later accepted into US programs. That being said, I would take Ochsner over a DO school. Forget about overseas practice if you go that route.

 

[jaketheory]

4 - Specialty. Specialty training in Australia is much, much longer than in the US. I'm a little fuzzy on the details but to actually start specialty training longer by as many as four years here. It is also much harder to get into a specialty program of any sort, at least as far as I know. "Residents" in Australia are basically Intern+, you do an internship year (away from whatever your residency is, you bounce around a lot apparently) and then spend two or three years as a resident (once again, bouncing around) before you start specialty training which is the equivalent of the American residency. It is a long, long track and it's actually easier for Australians to get into American residency programs than it is for them to get into their own programs.

As i have stated above, this is not really true. Big city hospitals in Sydney and Melbourne will be the most competitive at which to get registrar positions (specialty trainee positions). You will likely need to work as an RMO at least one year, maybe more, to be competitive for a registrar position in these hospitals. however, you by no means have to complete RMO years before getting a training position. For example, both GP and internal medicine training require an RMO year; however, if you read the details you will find the first year of specialty training is working as an RMO, thus the RMO year is the first year of your 3 (GP) or 6 years (physician) specialty training - it does not have to be in addition to it. if you dont narrow your search solely to Melbourne and Sydney, you can get a training position without having first completed an RMO year. If you think you are likely to be getting a residency in some flash New York City or LA hospital as an overseas grad, you may want to think again. that is, it is more competitive in large big city hospitals in the US just as it is here in Australia. The difference is in Aus is if you dont make it the first time you can work as an RMO until you do make it. If you dont want to wait around as an RMO in Aus, take a job somewhere else, but you have the option here to wait around for the position you want.

Don't worry about whether or not you'll be able to work in Australia when you're done; once you have finished residency you're going to be welcome pretty much anywhere as a fully trained, ready to practice physician. Whether or not you got your MD or MBBS at a school in the US or Australia shouldn't matter.

Personally my plan is to finish here, do my residency and specialty training in the US and then consider coming back here to work.

i'd say if you are gonna be making plans around what options you want to have, then you SHOULD worry about how you could actually have those options. First, for the same reason you will not be able to get an internship after graduating from an Aus school, you will be unlikely to get a job here as a fully trained physician from overseas.

You won't be able to get an internship because the med schools will be pumping out more grads than there will be internships. For the same reasons, there will be heightened competition for specialty training positions, and then for consultants as well. They will be hiring people trained in Aus before those trained overseas simply because there will be a glut of Aus trained grads needing work and it will be the gov't and the hospitals' responsibility to hire Aus trained dr's before overseas trained dr's. Having not completed an Aus internship will make it harder as well as they will prefer to hire consultants that have completed an Aus intership because then they don't have to baby sit you for a year. Even if you are a fully qualified attending in the US, you will have to work under supervions if you have not completed an Aus intership or equivalent. The first year of residency in the US generally will not be considered equivalent because it would need to have 10 weeks medicine, 10 weeks surgery, and 6 weeks emergency medicine (or something similar to that).

the major Aus cities don't really have a Dr shortage, it is the smaller cities and towns. local grads will be forced to go to regional areas to work. i'm sure if you're willing to work in a very small isolated Aus town, they'd be happy to have you, but i wouldn't count on too much else.

 

[nybgrus]

I was advised that this thread was resurrected so I thought I would come in and help out as best I could with some information.

For everyone's edification I am just finishing my second year in the UQ-Ochsner program and am the head of academics for Phase I. I helped to design and implement the USMLE study package for the cohort and created content for and lead the first year tutorials for USMLE this year.

@LindsayL:

Your decision is not the easiest one. If your goal is to come stay in Australia, I think your best bet is to do the regular MBBS program and stay all 4 years here. It is true that internship spots are tight, but that is your best bet for securing something useful. If your goal is to stay in the states for residency, I think that the safe bet is to stay in the States for your medical education. I personally think that with lots of hard work and self motivation this program will lend itself to making its graduates competitive for just about any residency in the US. There will always be a disadvantage, just like a US trained grad will have a disadvantage trying to obtain residency in Aus.

However, it is my opinion (and that is all it is at the moment) that it will be more like an Oxford or Cambridge grad disadvantage, rather than a Caribbean grad disadvantage, if you know what I mean.

In short, getting an internship spot here would be very difficult, and your best bet to maximize that chance is not through the Ochsner program but through the regular MBBS (soon to be MD) program at UQ. Weigh your options and priorities and make a decision from there.

Since you are accepted to US med schools, I will re-iterate that the safer bet is to go that route for a US residency. However, I think this program presents unique opportunities that may prove to be worthwhile. I would also say that (once again, IMO) this program would be a better option than a DO program, so my recommendation of a safe bet applies only to MD schools.

Also, in regards to the away rotations. As it stands right now your opportunity for that will be quite limited. For every cohort starting with the 1st years the elective rotation has been replaced with a critical care rotation. Thus, your options are limited in terms of what specialty of medicine you can possibly do an away rotation in. Ochsner and UQ will allow the away rotation, the issue is that it must be in the prescribed core rotations. There is currently work underway to offer a more practical opportunity at 4 weeks of elective away rotation by amending the assessment criteria for Specialty 1 and 2 such that 4 weeks of it may be done at an outside institution. That is not a reality yet. We will try and see if we can make that 8 weeks, done in 2x4 week blocks (which is reasonably commensurate with US schools style, if not quantity) but that is less likely. As it stands right now, I would bank on not being able to do an away rotation, with the knowledge that (once again IMO) there is a very reasonable chance that may change.

@ludlow:

I think Rhandhali is pretty spot on with his post. Furthermore, we can't accurately comment on the competitiveness of this program in regards to any residency since the data isn't there, but from what I do know I would find us to be in a position to be rather competitive. Certainly GP won't be an issue. EM also should be very attainable. Obviously good USMLE scores will be paramount, but that is the case no matter what. And Brian Cripe will be continuing my work to make the USMLE prep for the Ochsner cohort even more robust and continue to begin in 1st year. Next year I will (likely) be academic officer again and will be working with Ochsner closely to make us as competitive and streamlined as possible. The goal is absolutely US residency - not Australian - and the further goal is to have a tradition of landing competitive residencies (both in location and specialty). My specific focus will be California since that is where I am from.

You will most certainly be able to practice in the states after finishing this program. I won't go into tedious detail, but there is absolutely nothing that disqualifies us from attaining residency and/or licensure in ANY state.

The family issue will make things tougher. Cost of living is very high out here and jobs are certainly more difficult to land for Americans. Also, technically, your wife will only be able to work 20 hours per week (at least until the program changes over to an MD program, but if you come in this year that won't pertain to you). There are very few people here with children (in fact there are only two I can think of - 1 took a place at UNR halfway through last year and the other one does not have his child here as the boy is with his ex-wife). Some people do have wives and girlfriends. That has proven to be stressful on relationships and studies and one of my good friends here has broken up with his fiancee (for good). Most others have made it through well.

I tell you this not to scare you away, but so that you can consider it in your calculus of whether this program is the right fit for you and what your time is worth. If your goal is US residency solely, then I might recommend holding out another year in your situation. But that is really something up to you.

Once again though, I will stand by saying that I would pick this program over a DO program, though I will admit that the margin there is not massive.

@jaketheory:

Your statements regarding specialist training in this contrary are contrary to what I know and contrary to lectures we have had this year. It was specifically stated to us that attaining consultant status as a gastroenterologist takes 9 years post grad.

I am aware that internship/RMO years can vary, and that 3-4 is the high end before starting specialist training. However, I have yet to hear of anyone doing it in less than 2 years and certainly not straight out of med.

As for coming back here after specialist training - I can't fully comment. However, my understanding is that the option is still available and that having a degree from UQ will certainly boost those chances. However, doing the UQ-Ochsner program instead of a US program for the chance to come back when your primary goal is US residency and you have acceptances to US med schools does seem like a poor decision to me.

For myself, having the notion that I have a better chance than your average non-Australia specialist trained attending to come back here is good enough to keep in my back pocket - but is in no way my goal.

I also can't adequately comment on needing supervision but that doesn't seem to jive with me. I know of trauma surgeons imported to RBWH and have not heard them having to re-do a year of training. I have some relevant contacts and will ask though, to make sure.

In conclusion:

This program is one that will do well to get you back to a US program. The slightly increased likelihood of getting a job of some sort in Aus through this should be a nice thing to have in your back pocket and not a large part of your calculus in deciding to accept this program or not.

At the moment, if you have US offers, that is certainly the safe bet. It is my opinion through working extensively with the faculty, helping implement the USMLE study paradigm, and my own reasonably extensive contacts in the medical world back home that this program is poised to be a vastly better option than any Caribbean school and very likely become a reasonable first choice option over middle tier US schools.

The unique design of this program also affords opportunities to become as competitive as you want and has the unique advantage of teaching physical diagnosis better than the vast majority of US med schools. By taking advantage of that, I think that graduates here can parlay a solid basic sciences knowledge and greater clinical expertise to become highly competitive. But you really must be quite self directed for that. However, the curriculum style is changing starting next year so that may be mitigated to an extent that I cannot comment on.

Also the fact that tuition is in US dollars is an attractive feature of this program over any other Australian program.

I hope that helps answer some questions. If there are any more please feel free to ask and I will check back periodically. Also, if you are indeed an accepted student for the 2012 cohort please check out the facebook group at:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/119673921450169/

Where many of your future classmates already are as well as current 1st, 2nd, and 3rd years.

 

[neulite30]

so what would be your guess?

lack of standardized exams, lack of objective assessment, discordance between med and post-med training...but I digress.

 

[nybgrus]

I can add a bit to what I have written previously, for anyone interested.

First off, while I can't give any particular details and nothing is set in stone yet, I can say that the prospects of doing away rotations through this program are looking very good indeed. While I tend to be reserved and as such must say that you cant bank on it since it is not official yet, I do feel comfortable saying something quite reasonable is in the works that I have decent confidence will happen.

Also, in regards to returning here post-specialization. It is anecdotal, but apparently it is very possible indeed, though your first year or two back will almost certainly be in a rural/underserved area. Depending on your performance there (and of course competition) transfer to more desirable locations is very feasible. You will have some supervision during that first year, but my understanding is that it does not approximate re-doing a year of residency.

Hope that helps

 

[jaketheory]

Also, in regards to returning here post-specialization. It is anecdotal, but apparently it is very possible indeed, though your first year or two back will almost certainly be in a rural/underserved area. Depending on your performance there (and of course competition) transfer to more desirable locations is very feasible. You will have some supervision during that first year, but my understanding is that it does not approximate re-doing a year of residency.

Hope that helps

if you are trained in science, and if you are a Dr, you should realise that anecdotal evidence is evidence of least value.

i never said that working supervised would approximate redoing residency. it is imply working supervised. As a US trained and qualified Dr you can work independently, unsupervised in the US, but when you come here you will have to work supervised.

however, unless you complete a family medicine residency or 6 years of US training (eg. internal med + cardio or gastro), you will most likely also have to complete additional training here because your US training will not be considered equivalent.

and as an international student graduate in medicine from an Aus university, you will be classed as an international medical graduate and subject to the 10 year moratorium, so you should definitely expect to work in rural areas more than 2 years. While some underserved areas are currently not rural, by the time you are talking about, the med student tsunami will be in full effect and you will almost certainly have to serve the moratorium in rural areas. while i've heard it is possible to get the 10 years reduced to as little as 3 years, i'd suggest you to expect at least 5 years. there are at least government programs for you to reduce it to 5 years if you work remotely, but i think those that get it down to 3 years are able to do so because they know the right people. further, because the glut of graduates, even locals will be forced to work rurally, so why would they give you special treatment by reducing the 10 years?

if you want to continue to think it is a great idea to study here with the expectations that oppurtunities will abound for you, do it having been warned. maybe things will work out for you. hopefully they will. anything is possible however unlikely.

 

[neulite30]

if you want to continue to think it is a great idea to study here with the expectations that oppurtunities will abound for you, do it having been warned. maybe things will work out for you. hopefully they will. anything is possible however unlikely.

I sense a bit of disdain?

 

[Rhandhali]

I sense a bit of disdain?

I'm kind of wondering if he's even a medical student, or knows at all what he's talking about. Everything he's said has been counter to what I've gotten from other doctors, Australian medical students, International medical students, the School of Medicine, the Australian Medical Association, Queensland Health and so forth.

 

[neulite30]

I'm kind of wondering if he's even a medical student, or knows at all what he's talking about. Everything he's said has been counter to what I've gotten from other doctors, Australian medical students, International medical students, the School of Medicine, the Australian Medical Association, Queensland Health and so forth.

The truth is that it is a dynamic system. While the number of graduates far surpasses the number of training spots, Queensland Health is, at the same time, increasing these spots as well, albeit not matching what is needed.

My advice is to not worry all that much about it. Work hard, try not to expect things to come to you, take the USMLE or MCCEE, get involved in research, and study to be a better doctor.

 

[pitman]

further, because the glut of graduates, even locals will be forced to work rurally, so why would they give you special treatment by reducing the 10 years?

I don't agree that locals will be forced to work rurally. I think they should be, as they have been in S. Africa, since that's the surest way to sustain services in remote areas, but there are not any moves in this direction. The last time there was action to increase GPs significantly here was to address a similar shortage of rural generalists back in the '70s, and the result was that most the GPs still stayed in the cities and created a glut. This time the govt has been enticing locals to get out via the carrot of the rural generalist and rural bonded training pathways. For non-generalists, the colleges do a pretty good job of restricting numbers, i.e., much of the tsunami will be forced into GP land. Of course if you specialized in the US, this doesn't affect you, since while you're getting your qualifications recognized here, you need only be in a state-defined Area of Need (which are all over and within every major city).

The moratorium time for IMGs and former int'ls can come down to 5 years (in RA 5 areas), but it's 10 in non-rural areas (RA 1). The official requirement, chiefly for GPs, is that once qualified here, they must be in federally defined Districts of Workforce Shortage (DWS), but these are also virtually everywhere. So grads can fulfill the moratorium by spending, say, 5 years in the bush, 7 years in Cairns, or 10 in much of Melbourne or the southern suburbs of Brisbane.

DWS and RA map:

Choose the DWS layer on this map to see where you'd have to practice as a GP under the moratorium, and then toggle to the RA layer to get an idea of how long you'd be under it: http://www.doctorconnect.gov.au/internet/otd/publishing.nsf/Content/locator . Note that for specialists, it's a whole different ball of wax, and you need only (in practice) find an Area of Need (which is defined at the level of a *position* rather than a region -- a great example being all the Emergency locum jobs in the cities) to work there.

Moratorium length by RA:
http://www.doctorconnect.gov.au/internet/otd/publishing.nsf/Content/otdsFgamsScalingFaq

 

[Rhandhali]

I don't agree that locals will be forced to work rurally. I think they should be, as they have been in S. Africa, since that's the only way to have the remote areas served consistently over time, but there are not any moves in this direction. The last time there was action to increase GPs significantly here was to address a similar shortage of rural generalists back in the '70s, and the result was that most the GPs still stayed in the cities and created a glut. This time the govt has been enticing locals to get out, through rural generalist and rural bonded pathways. For non-generalists, the colleges do a pretty good job of restricting numbers, i.e., much of the tsunami will be forced into GP land.

Without derailing there has to be a better way to get doctors out to the backwaters without resorting to a corvée. Sounds like a great way to drive people away.

 

[nybgrus]

if you are trained in science, and if you are a Dr, you should realise that anecdotal evidence is evidence of least value.

I am trained in science, though obviously not a doctor yet. Hence why I said "It is anecdotal, but apparently it is very possible indeed"

However, if you were someone who critically thinks about things before spewing them out onto the internet you would realize that this is not an anecdote referring to data collected for an intervention. This is an anecdote of an American trained as an orthopedist who came to Australia to practice. Considering that he would be subject to the same laws as any other American who is specialist trained and wanting to practice here, then it really isn't such a worthless anecdote after all. Especially considering how it jives with everything else we have been told and read, as Rhandahli pointed out.

Additionally, if you had bothered to read what I had written, I explicitly noted that it wasn't a major point of discussion and I advised people not to do Ochsner program purely as a way of assuring work in Australia, didn't I?

You are right though, I misread your post about working under supervision. Primarily because reading it right leads to only one thought "so what?" I would EXPECT to have to work under supervision when coming to a completely different health care system with different laws in a different country. In fact, I would WANT it to make sure I learned the ropes. So I completely fail to see the point you are trying to make.

I further fail to see what it is you are contributing to the conversation. I do not know why someone who has no affiliation with UQ or Ochsner would bother to come in and comment on a thread where people interested in the program ask questions specific to it. At least Pitman was a UQ student and generally has more informative responses.

And to boot, everything I could find indicates that the AMC and the RACP will recognize a standard 3 year internal medicine residency via the specialist pathway.

http://www.amc.org.au/index.php/img

And there are multiple ways to go about it. So I'm reasonably comfortable to say that you aren't really very accurate in what you are saying.

So please, unless you have something pertinent to add that is actually material to the discussion I'd appreciate you not continually trying to derail the thread by being pedantic about minor details that aren't the focus anyways and that you tend to be wrong about.

 

[nybgrus]

Oh yes, and also, for Rhandahli -

There are indeed ways to go about coming back without having to do rural placements. Of course, the cushier and easier the way, the harder it is to go and the more competition there is for it. You will always have to pay your dues somewhere, but not necessarily for years out in the boonies.

 

[pitman]

Without derailing there has to be a better way to get doctors out to the backwaters without resorting to a corvée. Sounds like a great way to drive people away.

I did forget to mention that schools generally have a lower standard for accepting rural candidates, in line with studies showing that the best way to get rural doctors is to increase docs from rural communities. But that's not going to fill the shortage. Hopefully the combination of all the incentives will eventually make for significant improvement, but I fear absent something radical like indentured servitude there'll continue to be a reliance on IMGs and extremely high-paying (system-draining) locums for the foreseeable future.

A fundamental problem with the rural bonded scholarships has been that a graduate can pay off the debt to get out of the rural commitment, which they do, in droves. Maybe better than a corvee, the bonded scholarships could be made larger (bigger carrot, but still optional) with no practical way for circumvention -- akin to how the ADF (military) scholarships work.

 

[jess1ca]

hey guys

I just found out i will be attending the UQ/Ochsner program starting in January. For those of you currently enrolled, are you glad you went?

Also, where do you suggest I live? And how soon in advance do I need to arrive in order to get everything I need done. It feels like I'm already running out of time! Any suggestions would be helpful!

 

[Rhandhali]

hey guys

I just found out i will be attending the UQ/Ochsner program starting in January. For those of you currently enrolled, are you glad you went?

Also, where do you suggest I live? And how soon in advance do I need to arrive in order to get everything I need done. It feels like I'm already running out of time! Any suggestions would be helpful!

I would suggest looking in the following neighborhoods. They're all close to the main campus where you'll be spending about 80% of your time. This is not an exhaustive list by any means though!

Annerley
Highgate Hill
Dutton Park
Toowong
St Lucia
West End
Wooloongabba

Just pop those names into a rental search on http://www.realestate.com.au and you can get a decent idea of what housing here costs. As an example, I live next to a major bus stop, a ferry terminal and have about a 15 minute walk or 5 minute bike ride to get to campus. The house is a fully furnished 3 bedroom/3ba townhouse that costs all 3 of us $595/week. There is an IKEA if you want to go unfurnished, but it's kind of hard to get to if you don't have a car.

Any place that has easy access to routes 428, 109 or 412 is great as those are three of the big main bus lines into campus. 109 and 412 also take you into the city, and 428 and 412 will take you to major shopping areas with things like grocery stores. Any place with easy access to CityCat is also a good choice as UQ has it's own ferry terminal.

I can't offer you much advice on when to get here. I was looking for a much larger house than was commonly available and got here just before major floods that affected a lot of student housing, so my experience isn't representative. I can tell you we start several weeks before the rest of UQ and will have our pick of student housing options. I also know many people found housing within a few days of arrival.

There are also a lot of incoming students on the facebook group organizing housing and arrival accommodations at http://www.facebook.com/groups/119673921450169/