The DEBT REAPER!

NileBDS · Dec 8, 2011

Let's talk about debt!

I mean ... really talk about debt. Let's discuss how it affects our daily decisions, aspirations and perceived lifestyles as dentists and dental students!

Student loans, mortgage, car loan, practice loan, credit cards ... if it's debt, it goes here.

Disclaimer: I am by NO means an expert on finances, debt or what not (don't expect much advice from me), but feel like we need to get this conversation going. I am actually starting this thread to get some ideas from you guys, and hopefully get some smart folks to chime in about their experiences with debt.

flapaTron · Dec 8, 2011

nice to have you backe niles

Double Bonded · Dec 8, 2011

....and bookmarked!

Bereno · Dec 8, 2011

I think this might turn out to be a good read. I will be curiously watching this thread. +1 for a good conversation.

carbide · Dec 9, 2011

Good topic especially since it the time of year for the "I got into my state school X which is 100K+ cheaper but I got into private school Y and it's amazing/want to specialize/does ivy league matter/it's only money etc etc" posts.

NileBDS · Dec 9, 2011

Alright, so let me get us going here.

Why are dental students paying so much for their education!? Is there a true value in it, or is it purely a function of "free markets" in the US (more applicants each year = more demand = jacking up the prices). Does a dental education cost nearly as much in other countries?

Why do all you dental students think it's ok to start your career with a non-dismissible $300,000, $400,000 or $500,000 education loan?

How much money do you think you'll be making anyways?

How many years do you estimate it will take to dig yourself out from under all those loans?

What is the new going "sticker price" for becoming a dentist (not the price of your DDS/DMD)?

Have you thought of some of the "other loans" and even more debt you will most likely acquire throughout your early earning years? Home, car, practice, equipment, ... ?

Is a career in dentistry becoming a dumb, naive and short sighted financial decision?

What are some of the long term professional ramifications of such financial burdens being placed on new graduates?

.....

ARE THE GOLDEN YEARS OF DENTISTRY BEHIND US?!!!

Ok, I'm done. Please discuss.

NileBDS · Dec 9, 2011

Oooo, ooo, oooooo ... here's another good one that always comes up.

Should I go to the cheaper state school? I mean, it's the same degree, right? My dentist told me to just go to the cheapest school that accepts you.

(Hat tip carbide!)

persenmi · Dec 9, 2011

Here's the deal plain and simple. The debt attached to a dds/dmd degree results in the flow of money being shunted away from the dentist and into the bankers (and schools') pockets. Think about it. When you graduate and get a job, where will your paycheck go? Into your bank account or to your student debt lender? Therefore, who has benefited from your education and hard work? This is important to understand because this is a big part of the reason (I understand that thereare many factors) the cost has gone up so much. The lucrative nature of dentistry attracted the bankers like flies on s#?t. They wanted a "piece of the action" so they used their debt product to siphon off as much as they could without doing any real work. (Yes, the schools are involved too!) It is a one sided, parasitic, relationship between student and banker.

And here's the real kicker. When these banks "loan" us hundreds of thousands of dollars they don't have the money in a vault somewhere waiting to be lent out, thus legitimizing their risk. No. All they do simply punch it into the computer and make a book entry and wa-la. Money. Banks call it "LEVERAGING" or more accurately, FRACTIONAL RESERVE LENDING. That way, when the house of cards falls, and it will, the bankers haven't really lost anything but the economy is left in a tangled morass.

So in summary, banks have the LEGAL (we should vote for a president who will change this!) power to create money and therefore direct the flow of our livelyhood into their bank accounts. Nothing new here, this is a VERY OLD SCAM. They are parasites by definition. Thank you for reading this.

longhornpride · Dec 9, 2011

NileBDS said:
Alright, so let me get us going here.

Why are dental students paying so much for their education!? Is there a true value in it, or is it purely a function of "free markets" in the US (more applicants each year = more demand = jacking up the prices). Does a dental education cost nearly as much in other countries?
Since we were kids, we've been hammered with the idea that if you don't get a bachelors or professional degree, you won't get a job. It doesn't help when adcoms come to predental meetings and show BS graphs about a huge need for dentists and that the avg starting salary is 120-130k. There is a value in reasonable state schools with lower tuition. Schools like NYU, BU, USC, Tufts, etc are an absolute rip off for the price. Seriously?? 400k+ for a degree that gets you a starting pay of about 90-100k if you're lucky your first year.

Why do all you dental students think it's ok to start your career with a non-dismissible $300,000, $400,000 or $500,000 education loan?
Because schools show BS statistics and graphs during interviews showing that their default rate is around 1% and that the students pay off their debt on an avg of 5 years. They fail to mention that they include rich kids that leave school with no debt and graduates heading into the military with no debt.

How much money do you think you'll be making anyways?
I'm planning on doing a GPR that way I have some leverage when applying for jobs. As a new graduate, you can bet private practice owners will try to take advantage of you and screw you over... or you can be worked to death at the commercial mills while being disrespected by the office manager with a high school GED. I expect somewhere around 100k my first year after a GPR. I expect 120-150k sometime within the 1st 5 years whether it's in my 2nd year or 4th.

How many years do you estimate it will take to dig yourself out from under all those loans?
I'm lucky my parents are throwing their little retirement savings toward my education. I'll leave BU with maybe 220-250k in debt instead of 400k+. I plan on living like a student after I graduate and would like to have it paid off in 5 years.

What is the new going "sticker price" for becoming a dentist (not the price of your DDS/DMD)?
Assuming under grad is 50k and the avg dental school is 250k (arbitrary numbers I came up in my head)... 300k to become a dentist.

Have you thought of some of the "other loans" and even more debt you will most likely acquire throughout your early earning years? Home, car, practice, equipment, ... ?
Don't even want to think about that. I think people are crazy to take on a mortgage, a new car, and private practice loans on top of student loans.

Is a career in dentistry becoming a dumb, naive and short sighted financial decision?
The golden years of dentistry are over in my opinion. You have old geezers refusing to retire because of bad financial investments. You have commercial practices lowering the fees. You have new schools opening. You have states trying to legalize mid level providers. You have insurance companies screwing you over with reimbursements. I still think dentistry is a great career once you get a practice set up and those loans paid off. However, getting to that point might not be worth it anymore, especially for the price tag.

What are some of the long term professional ramifications of such financial burdens being placed on new graduates?
I don't think there will be severe ramifications. I don't expect dentists to struggle to put food on the table. However, I do think many will realize that the lifestyle they expected (making 200k while working 3 days a week) isn't going to come true for a very long time.

.....

ARE THE GOLDEN YEARS OF DENTISTRY BEHIND US?!!!
Yes.

Ok, I'm done. Please discuss.

... this is awesome thread. I'd like to hear about the potential job market and debt burden from some of the recent graduates. My post sounds negative, but that's because my dream of driving a BMW, living in a big house and brand spanking new private practice by the age of 30 has been shattered to pieces! haha

UCSD6 · Dec 9, 2011

1. Yea schools a rip off
2. Yes dentistry is lucrative, name another profession where u are basically set on earning 6 figure salary from day one.
3. The sky is not falling, dentistry will remain a very lucrative profession.
4. I am willing to go into 300,000 k because it's still worth it. Let analyze what my options were coming out of college. My family is not wealthy, I came out of college with a science degree. The economy sucks for everyone. I could've worked a research job for 40,000k a year if I'm lucky. But I would rather take on the debt and probably make my max potential at the research job, my first year out of dental school. It's a no brainer. say I may 10,000k a month, take home 7,000k. Even if my loan payments are 3k a month, i still have 5k. Guess what thats 60K more than what I make at the research job and I get to be a doctor, own my own business and have a salary that isn't capped. Boo Hoo, u cant buy ur BMW and House by 30, most people can't buy that in there life times. I guess its easy for me, cause u can't miss what u have never had and I have never had a bmw, house or money. I suppose if you had the golden spoon, you would be missing out.

charlestweed · Dec 9, 2011

persenmi said:
.....It is a one sided, parasitic, relationship between student and banker.....

I don't think it is a one sided, parasitic relationship. Why blame the big banks? Nobody forces you to go to dental school. Nobody puts a gun in your head and forces you to sign these loan docs. Blaming the big banks is like blaming the cigarette companies for causing the lung cancer. Nobody forces you to smoke.

Personal responsibility = success

longhornpride · Dec 9, 2011

UCSD6 said:
1. Yea schools a rip off
2. Yes dentistry is lucrative, name another profession where u are basically set on earning 6 figure salary from day one.
3. The sky is not falling, dentistry will remain a very lucrative profession.
4. I am willing to go into 300,000 k because it's still worth it. Let analyze what my options were coming out of college. My family is not wealthy, I came out of college with a science degree. The economy sucks for everyone. I could've worked a research job for 40,000k a year if I'm lucky. But I would rather take on the debt and probably make my max potential at the research job, my first year out of dental school. It's a no brainer. say I may 10,000k a month, take home 7,000k. Even if my loan payments are 3k a month, i still have 5k. Guess what thats 60K more than what I make at the research job and I get to be a doctor, own my own business and have a salary that isn't capped. Boo Hoo, u cant buy ur BMW and House by 30, most people can't buy that in there life times. I guess its easy for me, cause u can't miss what u have never had and I have never had a bmw, house or money. I suppose if you had the golden spoon, you would be missing out.

your math is a little off.

10k- taxes = around 7k
7k - 3k(monthly loan repayment) = 4k
4k- 1k (rent/mortgage) = 3k
minus health inurance/ malpractice insurance/ food/ utilities/ car note/ misc. = ????

what are you left with 1k- 1.5k??

When do you plan on buying your own practice? That's another additional cost.

Don't get me wrong... that's still money in the pocket. But was it worth the 4-5 years after undergrad? If you compare dentistry to a research job... ofcourse it's better. However, we're all smart people so let's compare to to something else. Maybe an engineering degree or a finance/accounting degree. You save 300k in debt after undergrad and are 5 years into your career. Hell a 2 year MBA program from a decent program will bump your salary around 6 figs and you'll save 2-3 years and a 150k in debt. Im not saying dentistry isn't the better option, but it's not what it used to be and it's not what many of us thought it was. I still love the fact that I'm going to be a dentist and will make a decent living... but this profession has its fair share of problems for the amount of hard work/ effort/ and debt that goes into it.

It also depends on an individual basis. Some will make very good money within 5 years and it will be a great choice. For others, they will struggle with this economy and it will make it a living hell to pay off the debt.

In the end, I agree with you. I would still choose dentistry, but I'm also trying to be realistic with my expectations. As for the last part, I guess you didn't get the tongue in cheek comment. Obviously, I don't expect to have a BMW or house by 30. What in my actual opinion drew you to that conclusion? Hell I still don't have a car and I'm well in my 20s. But let's also be real. There are very few people that went into dentistry solely on "helping" people. I'll wager that if dentistry paid 50k-70k a year, many wouldn't choose this profession. The discussion is about whether your ROI is worth the debt and investment of the hardwork, money, and years put in.

SoulPower · Dec 9, 2011

charlestweed said:
I dont think it is a one sided, parasitic relationship. Why blame the big banks? Nobody forces you to go to dental school. Nobody puts a gun in your head and forces you to sign these loan docs. Blaming the big banks is like blaming the cigarette companies for causing the lung cancer. Nobody forces you to smoke.

Personal responsibility = success

I don't blame the banks necessarily it's more the govn't guaranteeing CoA for anyone who can get into professional school. School's get a blank check to write for tuition, etc. and students get screwed. It's not like I can go through another channel to become a dentist; I have to go to one of 59 or so school's now in the U.S with relentless tuition hikes each year. Who knows when the breaking point will be?.

longhornpride · Dec 9, 2011

SoulPower said:
I don't blame the banks necessarily it's more the govn't guaranteeing CoA for anyone who can get into professional school. School's get a blank check to write for tuition, etc. and students get screwed. It's not like I can go through another channel to become a dentist; I have to go to one of 59 or so school's now in the U.S with relentless tuition hikes each year. Who knows when the breaking point will be?.

Yup! and what's the governments solution for this problem. Let's do away with the little subsidized loans we were getting! I mean it would make sense if they were making it harder to get loans so schools would lower tuition, however we all know it's to find ways to cut the debt this country is in. They could care less about the education bubble that's about to explode. As far as the breaking point... who knows. I don't think we'll see it as long as pre-dents see established dentists doing well.

This topic gets my blood boiling. I had a cousin graduate from my school in 2002 or 2003. His tuition was around 43k I believe. My tuition about 9-10 years later is around 67k. That's a 50% increase in tuition. How much has the avg salary increased in those 10 years?

yappy · Dec 9, 2011

This is such an interesting topic. Has anyone else noticed a dichotomy between the "importance" placed on education vs. economic reality?

Let me explain. I do tutoring for underprivileged kids. It's part of a program to get them involved in science, math, and engineering. It's a great time because they're working on mock engineering projects doing calculation and proof of concept but at the same time... in the back of my head... I think: will they really be better off for going into science?

There are great paying sales, management, and business jobs that require a lot less thinking and investment on the front end. But at the same time that whole business infrastructure cannot exist without the dedicated science minded people making things and achieving new feats.

So what does our country want out of its young people?

Educated people innovating new things? or "C's get degree" business majors that have mastered the art of the golden tongue?

EDIT: Just wanted make sure I was clear on one issue. I'm happy to be apart of a country that has placed an
ephesus on education - when I was over in the sand box it became clear that our more advanced technology gave us a huge edge in the fight. Education is a national security issue. I just hope we're not sliding backwards and creating a financial disincentive for young people that have the passion and brains to do the academic heavy lifting.

charlestweed · Dec 9, 2011

SoulPower said:
I don't blame the banks necessarily it's more the govn't guaranteeing CoA for anyone who can get into professional school. School's get a blank check to write for tuition, etc. and students get screwed. It's not like I can go through another channel to become a dentist; I have to go to one of 59 or so school's now in the U.S with relentless tuition hikes each year. Who knows when the breaking point will be?.

Well, if you think it costs too much to become a dentist and you are not willing to take the risk, you can always choose another profession that doesn't require you to borrow $300-400k. I agree with you that the government is the culprit. Don't expect these problems to go away and it doesn't really matter who you vote for. You should start dealing with these problems yourselves and you should do it right now by trying to cut down the spending while you are in dental school. When you graduate, don't listen to the sale reps who try to sell you fancy expensive dental equipments. Many successful dentists I know own small, low overhead, simple, 2-3 op dental offices....and they are practicing in CA.

I feel really bad for the predents who think that it is worth paying extra $100-200k to go to the more prestigious programs like Harvard and Columbia. Some predents are willing to pay extra so they go to out of state school to experience the new life outside of home. I am shock to hear that many dental students have to pay $30k a year for rents/food/other living expenses.

Is it still possible to find a 2-bedroom apartment for $1200/month and share it with 3-4 other students? That's what I did I when I was in dental school and I only paid $250/month in rent.

timwatley · Dec 9, 2011

Is it still worth becoming a dentist? I would argue yes. I've talked to a couple dentists and they agree. One even urged me to take on USC's tuition, but I still disagree with that. We are definitely in interesting times..but look at every field. My dad owns an engineering firm and they have had to lay off people. We are transitioning as a country. What's most important, in my eyes, is the specific skill we are learning. I'm in a decent situation because I'm either looking at Creighton or my state school...both are on the lower end of cost now a days. Paying 300k (or less) for a job that will pay a 6 figure salary for the rest of my life is more than worth it. Especially if I get to be my own boss and work very decent hours. On top of that we are actually dedicating our lives to a great purpose - improving countless lives. 90% of my confidence comes from my smile...which was made possible by a #7 implant. The same cant be said about real estate, wal street, accountants, the majority of business owners, etc. Those lives are dedicated to one thing - money. I cant imagine dedicating my life to green paper. Its great to have, and I wouldn't go into this field if it wasn't there, but there are so many more important aspects to life. Dentistry is a great, exciting, fulfilling career.To be blunt...there aren't many options in this country anymore. We've all had great lifestyles (compared to the rest of the world), and now we are taking a risk. Hopefully it pays off.

UCSD6 · Dec 10, 2011

longhornpride said:
your math is a little off.

10k- taxes = around 7k
]7k - 3k(monthly loan repayment) = 4k
4k- 1k (rent/mortgage) = 3k
minus health inurance/ malpractice insurance/ food/ utilities/ car note/ misc. = ????

what are you left with 1k- 1.5k??

When do you plan on buying your own practice? That's another additional cost.

Don't get me wrong... that's still money in the pocket. But was it worth the 4-5 years after undergrad? If you compare dentistry to a research job... ofcourse it's better. However, we're all smart people so let's compare to to something else. Maybe an engineering degree or a finance/accounting degree. You save 300k in debt after undergrad and are 5 years into your career. Hell a 2 year MBA program from a decent program will bump your salary around 6 figs and you'll save 2-3 years and a 150k in debt. Im not saying dentistry isn't the better option, but it's not what it used to be and it's not what many of us thought it was. I still love the fact that I'm going to be a dentist and will make a decent living... but this profession has its fair share of problems for the amount of hard work/ effort/ and debt that goes into it.

It also depends on an individual basis. Some will make very good money within 5 years and it will be a great choice. For others, they will struggle with this economy and it will make it a living hell to pay off the debt.

In the end, I agree with you. I would still choose dentistry, but I'm also trying to be realistic with my expectations. As for the last part, I guess you didn't get the tongue in cheek comment. Obviously, I don't expect to have a BMW or house by 30. What in my actual opinion drew you to that conclusion? Hell I still don't have a car and I'm well in my 20s. But let's also be real. There are very few people that went into dentistry solely on "helping" people. I'll wager that if dentistry paid 50k-70k a year, many wouldn't choose this profession. The discussion is about whether your ROI is worth the debt and investment of the hardwork, money, and years put in.

I will address the red quotes in order. 4k for mortgage, your crazy live below your means for a while. Rent a house in a cheap area for around 1.5 k/month. If you can't afford a practice, then you can't afford one. Don't buy one, keep paying your loans down and live within your means. It's always greener on the other side, let me tell you something, good luck with an mba, it better be from a top 5 school. And the cost of a top 5 school will cost you atleas 100,000k in debt if not more, for a 2 year degree. An MBA has little value and shouldn't be compared in the same sentence of a DDS degree. Yea sure engineers make good money, but it's the hardest major and we didn't pick it, so should've could've would've but didn't so we can't worry about that. Accountant, yea if you work at a top 5 you will make good money as long as you get your CPA, kiss you personal life good bye, because you will be on the grind working anywhere from 60-80 hrs./ week, to make below 100k. Most people DON'T make 6 figures. Remember that the economy is bad for everyone. If dentist made 50-70k year it wouldn't be as hard and demanding, probably be a bachelors degree. Why is the goldern era over? Like I previously stated, you offices may be hurting because the economy is so bad, but were not anticipating this economy to never go back up. Dentistry is very lucrative, dentist 10 and 20 yrs ago didn't make nearly as much as dentist do now. Yes, education is much more expensive and I agree something needs to be done about the crazy tuition hikes. I anticipate a bubble, something like the housing market burst, student not being able to pay back there loans, national debt increasing, and taxes increasing.

longhornpride · Dec 10, 2011

UCSD6 said:
I will address the red quotes in order. 4k for mortgage, your crazy live below your means for a while. Rent a house in a cheap area for around 1.5 k/month. If you can't afford a practice, then you can't afford one. Don't buy one, keep paying your loans down and live within your means. It's always greener on the other side, let me tell you something, good luck with an mba, it better be from a top 5 school. And the cost of a top 5 school will cost you atleas 100,000k in debt if not more, for a 2 year degree. An MBA has little value and shouldn't be compared in the same sentence of a DDS degree. Yea sure engineers make good money, but it's the hardest major and we didn't pick it, so should've could've would've but didn't so we can't worry about that. Accountant, yea if you work at a top 5 you will make good money as long as you get your CPA, kiss you personal life good bye, because you will be on the grind working anywhere from 60-80 hrs./ week, to make below 100k. Most people DON'T make 6 figures. Remember that the economy is bad for everyone. If dentist made 50-70k year it wouldn't be as hard and demanding, probably be a bachelors degree. Why is the goldern era over? Like I previously stated, you offices may be hurting because the economy is so bad, but were not anticipating this economy to never go back up. Dentistry is very lucrative, dentist 10 and 20 yrs ago didn't make nearly as much as dentist do now. Yes, education is much more expensive and I agree something needs to be done about the crazy tuition hikes. I anticipate a bubble, something like the housing market burst, student not being able to pay back there loans, national debt increasing, and taxes increasing.

Where did I say the mortgage was 4k. I said 4k MINUS 1k (mortgage).

I'm not going to continue to argue with you if you keep comparing dentistry to the avg american or a low end MBA program. We're all smart people so try comparing it to someone with an MBA from a top 15 MBA program or a tier 1 law school.

You also keep ignoring that we're in school much longer than others and in WAY more debt than others.

As far as the golden years... yes dentists make more on avg now than 20 years ago. But stop being so shortsighted. It's a different world now with insurance, saturated cities, lowered fees, commercial chains, etc.

Like I said, it's a great profession and I wouldn't pick anything else. But we're discussing debt and valid concerns that come with.

UCSD6 · Dec 10, 2011

Not arguing with you, just joining the conversation. We take on tremendous amounts of debt, and something needs to budge, but what advice is there to give. Go to the cheapest school you get into, live well below your means, if you still are to scared of the debt join military of health services, if still to scared don't enter this profession. This is the reality nowadays. Sorry about the mortgage calculation overlooked it. Law students pay lots of money for law school, and mba from stanford will cost 90,000 per year. These prices are comparable to the costs of dental schools, granted they only go to school for half the time. Good luck finding a job as an MBA or JD, ever hear of the website ****ylawjobs.com. You should look at it. Once again JD or MBA does not compare to a DDS. JD's/MBA's are extremely saturated fields, with very low job security. I'm trying to point out that debt for all graduate programs seem to be skyrocketing. It is not greener on the other side, JD's, MBA's, MD's all come out with significant debt loads too. A DDS destroys a JD and MBA for many reasons, the only degree of more values is an MD. The cost of professional education is absurd, not much we can do about it but default on our loans and make the tax payer pick up the slack <-- that was a joke, but it might actually happen

yappy · Dec 10, 2011

If we (the tax payers) vote to make health care a right and use populus power to make health care workers work for free that is what we (the tax payers) deserve.

UCSD6 said:
The cost of professional education is absurd, not much we can do about it but default on our loans and make the tax payer pick up the slack <-- that was a joke, but it might actually happen

asghan · Dec 11, 2011

NileBDS said:
Why are dental students paying so much for their education!? Is there a true value in it, or is it purely a function of "free markets" in the US (more applicants each year = more demand = jacking up the prices). Does a dental education cost nearly as much in other countries?

Does a dental education cost nearly as much in other countries?

I am a Foreign trained dentist and did my BDS from a Govt school. It didn't cost me anything to get my degree - as the fees was really low and moreover we got stipend during our internship.

I am looking forward to join an Advanced standing program - and these questions Nile asked have always been on my mind from the beginning. The fees of the programs when converted into our home currency - becomes a huge sum!! :scared:

Do dental schools not provide scholarships or research assistant jobs (as in for engineering - MS students or MPH students?) If not - why???

jay47 · Dec 12, 2011

Is the golden age of dentistry over? I'm not really sure, it depends on what you mean by "golden". If you mean making the most money, possibly. What has traditionally been the real "moneymaker" in practices? Crowns right?

What is the average price for a crown nowadays? $850-$950 ish?

How much has that changed in the last 20 years? (Someone give me a number here real world dentists)

How much have costs (overhead) increased in that same period?

How much has the value of the dollar dropped ($950 doesn't buy what it used to)

How much has student loan debt increased in 20 years? I can answer that one!! Probably about 2000%.

Now while the numbers aren't looking good, you can still do well if you live within your means.

The technology (Implants, cone beam, composites) has improved dramatically in 20-30 years, but again, that increases costs too.

I've heard that we have transcended the "golden age" and entered the "platinum stage" of dentistry. Well, I guess we are on a downslide:

http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html
http://www.kitco.com/charts/liveplatinum.html

It looks nice, is dense as hell, but just isn't worth as much [platinum in case you didn't get it].

yappy · Dec 12, 2011

I would like to expand on one of your points about not keeping up with inflation:

One thing I've never been able to figure out is how a highly skilled independent professional like a dentist or doctor have not been able to keep their prices up with inflation.

What leverage does the general give-me-your-services-for-nothing have on them? I wonder what market forces keep an orthopedic surgeon fixing an elbow, drastically changing their quality of life for the better, from charging what ever (the maximum) the patient can pay + get a loan for. Why is the same not true for dentistry? To contrast, I once paid a plummer $300 to diagnose a problem with my shower and lay a bead of gel down. It took him 15 min and it was a freaking shower lol. I didn't enjoy spending money on his services; I paid him because I needed him to fix my problem.

jay47 said:
Is the golden age of dentistry over? I'm not really sure, it depends on what you mean by "golden". If you mean making the most money, possibly. What has traditionally been the real "moneymaker" in practices? Crowns right?

What is the average price for a crown nowadays? $850-$950 ish?

How much has that changed in the last 20 years? (Someone give me a number here real world dentists)

How much have costs (overhead) increased in that same period?

How much has the value of the dollar dropped ($950 doesn't buy what it used to)

How much has student loan debt increased in 20 years? I can answer that one!! Probably about 2000%.

Now while the numbers aren't looking good, you can still do well if you live within your means.

The technology (Implants, cone beam, composites) has improved dramatically in 20-30 years, but again, that increases costs too.

I've heard that we have transcended the "golden age" and entered the "platinum stage" of dentistry. Well, I guess we are on a downslide:

http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html
http://www.kitco.com/charts/liveplatinum.html

It looks nice, is dense as hell, but just isn't worth as much [platinum in case you didn't get it].

SoulPower · Dec 12, 2011

yappy said:
I would like to expand on one of your points about not keeping up with inflation:

One thing I've never been able to figure out is how a highly skilled independent professional like a dentist or doctor have not been able to keep their prices up with inflation.

What leverage does the general give-me-your-services-for-nothing have on them? I wonder what market forces keep an orthopedic surgeon fixing an elbow, drastically changing their quality of life for the better, from charging what ever (the maximum) the patient can pay + get a loan for. Why is the same not true for dentistry? To contrast, I once paid a plummer $300 to diagnose a problem with my shower and lay a bead of gel down. It took him 15 min and it was a freaking shower lol. I didn't enjoy spending money on his services; I paid him because I needed him to fix my problem.

I believe your answer is due to insurance reasons. Most practices are PPO, which means they have fixed amounts for their services and they cannot exceed them. If you aren't a PPO practice you can charge whatever you want but customers who do have insurance have a hassle dealing with payments through their insurance. It's a double-edged sword.

So in short, costs don't rise cause insurances don't want to pay it.

OhioDMD · Dec 12, 2011

NileBDS said:
ARE THE GOLDEN YEARS OF DENTISTRY BEHIND US?!!!

.

For those of you pondering this question I'll offer some actual #'s.
I practice in a large town/ small city in Ohio. I work 4.5 days a
week and take 3-4 weeks of vacation a year. I employ 2 full-time
hygienists. My patients are blue collar about 60% PPO 40%FFS.
I refer all perio, ortho, molar endos and most extractions.

Last 5 year avg gross 775,000 with 55% overhead which leaves
300,000 - 350,000 gross profit per year. After a maximum contribution
to my retirement fund and about 100,000 to the various tax
agencies leaves about 175,000 net (14,000 - 15,000 per month)
after taxes and retiement to pay for lifes neccessities and toys.

I had the practice appraised last year, as I was tinkering around with
early retirement, the sale value was at 565,000. That should give anyone
contemplating purchasing a practice some numbers they can crunch.

The other aspect to consider is the aging dentist population and decrease in
dental grads the last 30 years. My class at Pitt was 125 and I think Ohio State
had 155 that year. Pitt is now 79 and OSU is about the same. Half of the
dentists in my area are over 60 another 25% are in their 50's and I am fairly
certain this demographic exists in many small cities through out the mid-west.
There are going to be a lot of practitioners looking to retire or seriously slow down
within the next decade.

Enough of blowing solar enery up your backside. There should be plenty of opportunity
for those that want to work hard/smart.

persenmi · Dec 12, 2011

OhioDMD said:
For those of you pondering this question I'll offer some actual #'s.
I practice in a large town/ small city in Ohio. I work 4.5 days a
week and take 3-4 weeks of vacation a year. I employ 2 full-time
hygienists. My patients are blue collar about 60% PPO 40%FFS.
I refer all perio, ortho, molar endos and most extractions.

Last 5 year avg gross 775,000 with 55% overhead which leaves
300,000 - 350,000 gross profit per year. After a maximum contribution
to my retirement fund and about 100,000 to the various tax
agencies leaves about 175,000 net (14,000 - 15,000 per month)
after taxes and retiement to pay for lifes neccessities and toys.

I had the practice appraised last year, as I was tinkering around with
early retirement, the sale value was at 565,000. That should give anyone
contemplating purchasing a practice some numbers they can crunch.

The other aspect to consider is the aging dentist population and decrease in
dental grads the last 30 years. My class at Pitt was 125 and I think Ohio State
had 155 that year. Pitt is now 79 and OSU is about the same. Half of the
dentists in my area are over 60 another 25% are in their 50's and I am fairly
certain this demographic exists in many small cities through out the mid-west.
There are going to be a lot of practitioners looking to retire or seriously slow down
within the next decade.

Enough of blowing solar enery up your backside. There should be plenty of opportunity
for those that want to work hard/smart.

Thanks for the post OhioDMD

. I love it when actual dentists post. There is another reason to believe there is opportunity in dentistry for those that want to work hard/smart. I read an article on SDN that showed data that female dentists are less likely to own a practice. Now before this thread disintigrates into a lecture on how a woman can run a practice as well as a man let me remind you I never said they couldn't. I believe they can

. However, the numbers show that they don't. Most schools now-a-days are about 50/50 male female. Therefore, graduating male dentists are likely to see a major opportunity as as old dentists retire and the new crop is mixed.

longhornpride · Dec 12, 2011

persenmi said:
Thanks for the post OhioDMD . I love it when actual dentists post. There is another reason to believe there is opportunity in dentistry for those that want to work hard/smart. I read an article on SDN that showed data that female dentists are less likely to own a practice. Now before this thread disintigrates into a lecture on how a woman can run a practice as well as a man let me remind you I never said they couldn't. I believe they can . However, the numbers show that they don't. Most schools now-a-days are about 50/50 male female. Therefore, graduating male dentists are likely to see a major opportunity as as old dentists retire and the new crop is mixed.

I wonder if there is a statistic out there that shows the ratio of female dentists that only practice part time/don't practice compared to men. It would be interesting to see if there was a significant difference.

NileBDS · Dec 13, 2011

Ohio, great post. Thanks for sharing these numbers.

Would you place your gross earnings ($300k-350k per year) in the top 10% of private practice owners? Top 25%? Middle of the road?

How long did it take for you to pay down your practice loan, assuming it was 100% financed?

Lastly, is it fair to conclude that your outlook on the future of dentistry in the US is favorable, given the exploding costs of dental education and the substantive amounts of debt students are acquiring this early on in their careers?

-Thanks

OhioDMD said:
For those of you pondering this question I'll offer some actual #'s.
I practice in a large town/ small city in Ohio. I work 4.5 days a
week and take 3-4 weeks of vacation a year. I employ 2 full-time
hygienists. My patients are blue collar about 60% PPO 40%FFS.
I refer all perio, ortho, molar endos and most extractions.

Last 5 year avg gross 775,000 with 55% overhead which leaves
300,000 - 350,000 gross profit per year. After a maximum contribution
to my retirement fund and about 100,000 to the various tax
agencies leaves about 175,000 net (14,000 - 15,000 per month)
after taxes and retiement to pay for lifes neccessities and toys.

I had the practice appraised last year, as I was tinkering around with
early retirement, the sale value was at 565,000. That should give anyone
contemplating purchasing a practice some numbers they can crunch.

The other aspect to consider is the aging dentist population and decrease in
dental grads the last 30 years. My class at Pitt was 125 and I think Ohio State
had 155 that year. Pitt is now 79 and OSU is about the same. Half of the
dentists in my area are over 60 another 25% are in their 50's and I am fairly
certain this demographic exists in many small cities through out the mid-west.
There are going to be a lot of practitioners looking to retire or seriously slow down
within the next decade.

Enough of blowing solar enery up your backside. There should be plenty of opportunity
for those that want to work hard/smart.

NileBDS · Dec 13, 2011

+1. Awesome post.

I predict you are going to do just fine USC and will have a very successful and fulfilling career. Good for you!

UCSD6 said:
1. Yea schools a rip off
2. Yes dentistry is lucrative, name another profession where u are basically set on earning 6 figure salary from day one.
3. The sky is not falling, dentistry will remain a very lucrative profession.
4. I am willing to go into 300,000 k because it's still worth it. Let analyze what my options were coming out of college. My family is not wealthy, I came out of college with a science degree. The economy sucks for everyone. I could've worked a research job for 40,000k a year if I'm lucky. But I would rather take on the debt and probably make my max potential at the research job, my first year out of dental school. It's a no brainer. say I may 10,000k a month, take home 7,000k. Even if my loan payments are 3k a month, i still have 5k. Guess what thats 60K more than what I make at the research job and I get to be a doctor, own my own business and have a salary that isn't capped. Boo Hoo, u cant buy ur BMW and House by 30, most people can't buy that in there life times. I guess its easy for me, cause u can't miss what u have never had and I have never had a bmw, house or money. I suppose if you had the golden spoon, you would be missing out.

NileBDS · Dec 13, 2011

longhornpride said:
...

Hell a 2 year MBA program from a decent program will bump your salary around 6 figs and you'll save 2-3 years and a 150k in debt. Im not saying dentistry isn't the better option, but it's not what it used to be and it's not what many of us thought it was. I still love the fact that I'm going to be a dentist and will make a decent living... but this profession has its fair share of problems for the amount of hard work/ effort/ and debt that goes into it.

My first hand experiences would have to disagree. Besides, dentistry is about much more than just making 6 figures. It's about a truly fulfilling career, growing your business, career independence and most importantly, having the ability to practice your own philosophies.

longhornpride said:
It also depends on an individual basis. Some will make very good money within 5 years and it will be a great choice. For others, they will struggle with this economy and it will make it a living hell to pay off the debt.

Very true. Not everyone will have the same share of success, in any field, in life in general. We are very different individuals, think differently and have very different motivations and driving factors to succeed.

longhornpride said:
In the end, I agree with you. I would still choose dentistry, but I'm also trying to be realistic with my expectations. As for the last part, I guess you didn't get the tongue in cheek comment. Obviously, I don't expect to have a BMW or house by 30. What in my actual opinion drew you to that conclusion? Hell I still don't have a car and I'm well in my 20s. But let's also be real. There are very few people that went into dentistry solely on "helping" people. I'll wager that if dentistry paid 50k-70k a year, many wouldn't choose this profession. The discussion is about whether your ROI is worth the debt and investment of the hardwork, money, and years put in.

Nothing wrong with having a BMW and house, but it's probably not the best way to spend your money at 30. Early retirement contributions and compound interest go a long way (makes me wonder sometimes why I don't take my own advice).

I'm just saying.

7 Iron · Dec 13, 2011

OhioDMD said:
For those of you pondering this question I'll offer some actual #'s.
I practice in a large town/ small city in Ohio. I work 4.5 days a
week and take 3-4 weeks of vacation a year. I employ 2 full-time
hygienists. My patients are blue collar about 60% PPO 40%FFS.
I refer all perio, ortho, molar endos and most extractions.

Last 5 year avg gross 775,000 with 55% overhead which leaves
300,000 - 350,000 gross profit per year. After a maximum contribution
to my retirement fund and about 100,000 to the various tax
agencies leaves about 175,000 net (14,000 - 15,000 per month)
after taxes and retiement to pay for lifes neccessities and toys.

I had the practice appraised last year, as I was tinkering around with
early retirement, the sale value was at 565,000. That should give anyone
contemplating purchasing a practice some numbers they can crunch.

The other aspect to consider is the aging dentist population and decrease in
dental grads the last 30 years. My class at Pitt was 125 and I think Ohio State
had 155 that year. Pitt is now 79 and OSU is about the same. Half of the
dentists in my area are over 60 another 25% are in their 50's and I am fairly
certain this demographic exists in many small cities through out the mid-west.
There are going to be a lot of practitioners looking to retire or seriously slow down
within the next decade.

Enough of blowing solar enery up your backside. There should be plenty of opportunity
for those that want to work hard/smart.

Wow, someone who says the sky is not falling. Thanks for the additional perspective. I have the same questions as NileBDS: where does your income fall in relation to other practitioners nearby? Seems to be the upper 25% to me at least. And how long did it take for you to get there? Did you open up shop right after school?

OhioDMD · Dec 13, 2011

NileBDS said:
Ohio, great post. Thanks for sharing these numbers.

Would you place your gross earnings ($300k-350k per year) in the top 10% of private practice owners? Top 25%? Middle of the road?

Probably (I don't follow stats closely) in the top 25%. Some actual stats I found while
trying to answer your inquiry from the Levin Group

Drilling down into the data to focus further on the practice owners profitability, average profits per owner rose 9.5% to $263,000 in 2010, compared to $240,000 in 2009. This change is notable as the income of all doctors (owners and associates) was flat from 2008 to 2009. This data represents an extremely positive sign as we finish this year and move into 2012.

How long did it take for you to pay down your practice loan, assuming it was 100% financed?

I opened in 1981, interest rates were 18%, and it took five years to finish my equipment lease (not a bad rate of return for the bank) and draw note (prime + 2%).

Lastly, is it fair to conclude that your outlook on the future of dentistry in the US is favorable, given the exploding costs of dental education and the substantive amounts of debt students are acquiring this early on in their careers?

Assuming the current economic climate is cyclical, I personally feel the future outlook
should be positve. Unfortunately, the educational debt burden is going to postpone your peak profitability by 5 or so years.

-Thanks

OhioDMD

Cold Front · Dec 17, 2011

OhioDMD said:
For those of you pondering this question I'll offer some actual #'s.
I practice in a large town/ small city in Ohio. I work 4.5 days a
week and take 3-4 weeks of vacation a year. I employ 2 full-time
hygienists. My patients are blue collar about 60% PPO 40%FFS.
I refer all perio, ortho, molar endos and most extractions.
I too practice in Ohio, but in Columbus area. I graduated last year summer (2010) and opened my practice Q2 of this year. I work 5 days a week, 1 Saturday a month. I was very fortunate to build the office in a high traffic strip mall, with a very large upcoming community. Most of the dentists I compete with are in their retirement age, and work 3-4 days a week. I don't refer any OS, pedo, or perio, unless I see serious potential complications in them or the kids had special needs. I do refer Ortho, although I'm thinking about taking courses in the future for basic ortho. My patients are from low income to serious PPO (annual $5k full coverage with no deductible). I'm next door to an urgent care and I see a lot of walk-ins too.

Last 5 year avg gross 775,000 with 55% overhead which leaves
300,000 - 350,000 gross profit per year. After a maximum contribution
to my retirement fund and about 100,000 to the various tax
agencies leaves about 175,000 net (14,000 - 15,000 per month)
after taxes and retiement to pay for lifes neccessities and toys.
I have been open 7 months, 5 chairs for 1 doc and a RDH, grossed so far $350k with 35% overhead. I'm still depreciating my profit from my capital investment, and I hope to pay off all my school debt this time next year.

I had the practice appraised last year, as I was tinkering around with
early retirement, the sale value was at 565,000. That should give anyone
contemplating purchasing a practice some numbers they can crunch.
I thought about purchasing initially, but I personally couldn't afford to get into that much more debt after dental school. You could save upto 50% with start-up if you know what you are doing (hint: Dental Town)

The other aspect to consider is the aging dentist population and decrease in
dental grads the last 30 years. My class at Pitt was 125 and I think Ohio State
had 155 that year. Pitt is now 79 and OSU is about the same. Half of the
dentists in my area are over 60 another 25% are in their 50's and I am fairly
certain this demographic exists in many small cities through out the mid-west.
There are going to be a lot of practitioners looking to retire or seriously slow down
within the next decade.
Totally agree. A Harvard professor who did studies on retirement v graduation rate gave a lecture at my school when I was in my 3rd year, and that's the moment I decided to plan ahead for a solo practitioner.

Enough of blowing solar enery up your backside. There should be plenty of opportunity
for those that want to work hard/smart.

The debt makes sense, if you see a potential.

wired202808 · Dec 17, 2011

I want to chime in but without quoting 40 million posts above lol

First of all, lets all stop whining and crying. We've all made the choice to pursue this profession so we gotta stay strong and focus on the future. (Last time I checked not a single SDN member was "forced" to become a dentist.)

Second of all, the sky is falling aka paranoia never works. If you've ever read a book or newspaper, the economy is always bouncing up and down (roughly every 10 years or so.) No need to go bonkers, things will work themselves out if you work hard and be smart. What does that mean? Dont spend money you dont have! Dont buy a house right after d-school or a fancy 70k car. Safe wisely (dont like the stock market, dont invest in it.)

Third of all, I am a non-trad student (just like our man Bereno) and i've dabbled in the MBA and law. I want to reiterate what was stated above. First of all, law schools are simply a debt trap and most students come out with 150 to 200K in debt and zero prospects of any reasonable employment. Many of them are very happy when they find a 30 to 40k/yr job. Maybe thats because there are over 200 law schools in the US.

Dont believe me google it. So law as a real "money maker" is a bs argument

Now when it comes to MBA's or CPAs (accountants) or CFAs here are the facts:

MBA/CPA/CFA has no guarantee of future employment (can be fired or laid off at any time for any reason.)

MBA/CPA/CFA works long hours anywhere between 55 to 70 hours a week (depending on experience)

MBA/CPA/CFA can earn as much as 70,000 (starting) to 200,000 (probably the cap for most people but only after 15 or 20 years of experience.)

MBA/CPA/CFA cannot set their own schedule, control their workload, choose their co-workers or earn an UNLIMITED amount of money.

And my all time favorite one (relating to unlimited income), an MBA/CPA/CFA does not earn any overtime (bonuses vary with the economy and after 10 years can only be a small amount maybe 50K after taxes, since bonuses are taxed at 50%)

A DDS/DMD earns every time they stay an extra half an hour to hour to take care of another patient.

And last but not least, most CPA and CFA jobs are extremely stressful and often quite boring. I'd rather work 70 hours a week in order to make 100% of the profit (before expenses) than work 70 hours a week and make 0.000000000000000000000001% of the corporate profit.

wired202808 · Dec 17, 2011

longhornpride said:
Where did I say the mortgage was 4k. I said 4k MINUS 1k (mortgage).

I'm not going to continue to argue with you if you keep comparing dentistry to the avg american or a low end MBA program. We're all smart people so try comparing it to someone with an MBA from a top 15 MBA program or a tier 1 law school.

You also keep ignoring that we're in school much longer than others and in WAY more debt than others.

As far as the golden years... yes dentists make more on avg now than 20 years ago. But stop being so shortsighted. It's a different world now with insurance, saturated cities, lowered fees, commercial chains, etc.

Like I said, it's a great profession and I wouldn't pick anything else. But we're discussing debt and valid concerns that come with.

If you know anything about law school or an MBA program (which you probably dont) the fact of the matter is that its SIGNIFICANTLY harder to get into a top MBA or law program. The DAT is a "learn-able" exam. I've taken the GMAT and LSAT and both were much harder than the DAT. Why? Because they're more like the SAT where its harder to prep and you can't really learn it as fast or effectively as one can prep for the DAT. They're more like natural intelligence based exams, unlike the DAT which is a knowledge based exam.

I think 20 to 40% of SDN folks would straight up be rejected from a top MBA or law program.

But that doesnt matter anyway. in the present economy even the top law or MBA grads will earn 100 to 120K, but they'll work 80 hours a week. So what's the real trade off? Per hour they'll earn significantly less than dentists. Doing the math, their hourly rate is something of $25 bucks per hour. Which kind of sucks, its the same thing as a person having 2 jobs, while each pays $50,000 a year.

mr24 · Dec 17, 2011

longhornpride · Dec 17, 2011

wired202808 said:
If you know anything about law school or an MBA program (which you probably dont) the fact of the matter is that its SIGNIFICANTLY harder to get into a top MBA or law program. The DAT is a "learn-able" exam. I've taken the GMAT and LSAT and both were much harder than the DAT. Why? Because they're more like the SAT where its harder to prep and you can't really learn it as fast or effectively as one can prep for the DAT. They're more like natural intelligence based exams, unlike the DAT which is a knowledge based exam.

I think 20 to 40% of SDN folks would straight up be rejected from a top MBA or law program.

But that doesnt matter anyway. in the present economy even the top law or MBA grads will earn 100 to 120K, but they'll work 80 hours a week. So what's the real trade off? Per hour they'll earn significantly less than dentists. Doing the math, their hourly rate is something of $25 bucks per hour. Which kind of sucks, its the same thing as a person having 2 jobs, while each pays $50,000 a year.

Well, you can make assumptions... I don't think either is significantly harder or harder at all than getting into some top end dental schools (UPenn, UCLA, columbia, Harvard, San Antonio, etc). You can get into a top 15 law school with a 3.7/3.8 and a 170. Pretty comparable to the 3.7/3.8s and 90th percentile DAT scores at the top dental schools. An instate school like the University of Texas offers a tier 1 law school and damn good MBA program for an affordable price tag. I have plenty of friends that have gotten into both programs and although they're all smart, I wouldn't say they were any smarter than the people I know in dental school. A tier 1 law school is going to get a six fig starting salary at a big time firm. However, like you said a tier 3 law school will get you a 35k job and a little more respect than a clerk at your respective firm. In addition, an MBA from the McCombs school of business will land you a 100k starting salary at a place like credit suisse or goldman sachs with a 20k signing bonus. Yes you will work long hours, but we're talking about how the debt for dental school compares to other professions. The topic of this thread isn't "The stress reaper".

Like I said, the question was asked if the the debt for dental school was worth it. I think it's a fair question. Getting an education for the 400k price from a place like USC, NYU, BU is not worth it in my opinion if I get into a top 20 law school school or MBA program for a cheaper price. I'm speaking strictly financially. However, obviously dentistry has it's own perks that make it a great profession outside of the money.

wired202808 · Dec 18, 2011

longhornpride said:
Well, you can make assumptions... I don't think either is significantly harder or harder at all than getting into some top end dental schools (UPenn, UCLA, columbia, Harvard, San Antonio, etc). You can get into a top 15 law school with a 3.7/3.8 and a 170. Pretty comparable to the 3.7/3.8s and 90th percentile DAT scores at the top dental schools. An instate school like the University of Texas offers a tier 1 law school and damn good MBA program for an affordable price tag. I have plenty of friends that have gotten into both programs and although they're all smart, I wouldn't say they were any smarter than the people I know in dental school. A tier 1 law school is going to get a six fig starting salary at a big time firm. However, like you said a tier 3 law school will get you a 35k job and a little more respect than a clerk at your respective firm. In addition, an MBA from the McCombs school of business will land you a 100k starting salary at a place like credit suisse or goldman sachs with a 20k signing bonus. Yes you will work long hours, but we're talking about how the debt for dental school compares to other professions. The topic of this thread isn't "The stress reaper".

Like I said, the question was asked if the the debt for dental school was worth it. I think it's a fair question. Getting an education for the 400k price from a place like USC, NYU, BU is not worth it in my opinion if I get into a top 20 law school school or MBA program for a cheaper price. I'm speaking strictly financially. However, obviously dentistry has it's own perks that make it a great profession outside of the money.

Well first of all please do some research before commenting on the subject matter at hand.

170 on the LSAT is not 90th percentile, its 98th percentile

, which is like getting a 23 on the DAT. (Most people do not get 23s on the DAT.) Additionally, comparing percentiles of two separate exams is like comparing apples to oranges. The percentiles are made to gauge applicants on that one particular test only, you cant turn around and use that percentile score to compare it to a totally different exam with different standards, time constrains and overall difficultly. Simply, a 90th percentile on the DAT is not the same as a 90th percentile on the GMAT. Anyway you slice it. All it means is that you are the 90th on the DAT and thats it.

Also the GMAT is only based on Math and English, which are both a lot harder than the DAT's QR and RC sections. Meanwhile, most students mess up big on the RC and QR sections of the DAT, so how you expect to "kill" the GMAT when the material is significantly harder than the DAT and students are already fundamentally weak in those areas? If you look at most predents they tend to kill the sciences (which are all taught in school or can be self taught, like in my case.) that brings up their AA's. Very few predents make or break their AA score with QR and RC. (I happen to be an exception because my RC saved my a&&)

Second of all for law school you dont need a high GPA, in fact they dont care about GPA at all. The minimum it should be is a 3.2 or so but the only thing that matters for admission is the LSAT itself because they consider that the most important factor since the exam is quite challenging.

Please dont use Texas as an example because thats 1 state and perhaps 1 or 2 schools in the entire nation (most people wont have that as option.) The salaries you are also throwing around are not the norm anymore because the economy is still in the crapper and everyone is getting a financial "haircut" and are smiling because they want any type of a job and they wont bicker over 10 to 20 grand.

And my last point (which is the same thing i've said before) its is ridiculously harder to get into a top 20 mba or law program than any dental school in america. So how can you really compare anything? Getting into NYU dental is not the same as getting into NYU MBA. Dont believe me? Please try it. So while it is cheaper to go to one versus the other its not easier. Also if you're thinking about debt and what not, you still have to factor in the other perks of being your own boss, etc. Otherwise the argument is purely moot, no one picks a career based on how much debt they'll incur. That's just damn silly. If I wanted to do that I would simply go and be a hygienist and finish a 2 year associates program and make $50/hr at an office in Brooklyn. (just like my friend did.)

Also last time I checked the ADEA handbook most d-school students don't have 3.7s. Average d-school student has a 3.55 GPA and a 3.48 sGPA.

PS D-schools are not ranked. If you go to Penn its just as expensive as NYU, while its harder to get into one vs. the other, thats not the point of the thread. The debt of one is equal to the other, so please dont compare apples and oranges by mixing debt and level of difficulty.

Bereno · Dec 18, 2011

Comparing the difficulty of admission into Law school vs dental school should not happen. Law school stresses LSAT and GPA, and thats it. Dental school considers many more parameters.

SeattleRDH · Dec 18, 2011

You know what drives me crazy? 40% of my income goes to student loan payments. Another 20% to childcare. 28% to the government.... And my husband and I wonder why I don't just stay home with our son. Oh wait! We have to pay that $1900 a month in student loan payments! Yup. The only reason I work is to pay back student loans.

The only reason I think it's worth it to pursue dentistry is I have my Dad's practice to take over. Otherwise, I wounldnt do it.

yappy · Dec 18, 2011

RElitive to the time spent/income I always thought DH was a pretty good deal. I know that the program around my town at the CC is ~3k for the program + equipment.

This was per a 20 year old DH I talked to at a practice who said she was making $38 an hour. Not bad.

1900/ month? whoa.

SeattleRDH said:
You know what drives me crazy? 40% of my income goes to student loan payments. Another 20% to childcare. 28% to the government.... And my husband and I wonder why I don't just stay home with our son. Oh wait! We have to pay that $1900 a month in student loan payments! Yup. The only reason I work is to pay back student loans.

The only reason I think it's worth it to pursue dentistry is I have my Dad's practice to take over. Otherwise, I wounldnt do it.

A6project · Dec 18, 2011

longhornpride · Dec 18, 2011

wired202808 said:
Well first of all please do some research before commenting on the subject matter at hand.

170 on the LSAT is not 90th percentile, its 98th percentile , which is like getting a 23 on the DAT. (Most people do not get 23s on the DAT.) Additionally, comparing percentiles of two separate exams is like comparing apples to oranges. The percentiles are made to gauge applicants on that one particular test only, you cant turn around and use that percentile score to compare it to a totally different exam with different standards, time constrains and overall difficultly. Simply, a 90th percentile on the DAT is not the same as a 90th percentile on the GMAT. Anyway you slice it. All it means is that you are the 90th on the DAT and thats it.
I was using an example. If you want to take my example literally, then go for it. Thank you for explaining the obvious to me. Had I used a 165, would you not have freaked out as much?
Also the GMAT is only based on Math and English, which are both a lot harder than the DAT's QR and RC sections. Meanwhile, most students mess up big on the RC and QR sections of the DAT, so how you expect to "kill" the GMAT when the material is significantly harder than the DAT and students are already fundamentally weak in those areas? If you look at most predents they tend to kill the sciences (which are all taught in school or can be self taught, like in my case.) that brings up their AA's. Very few predents make or break their AA score with QR and RC. (I happen to be an exception because my RC saved my a&&)
Once again, thanks for explaining how the DAT works.

Second of all for law school you dont need a high GPA, in fact they dont care about GPA at all. The minimum it should be is a 3.2 or so but the only thing that matters for admission is the LSAT itself because they consider that the most important factor since the exam is quite challenging.
Use your research skills and please find the top 20 law schools and their average GPAs. If they are anywhere close to a 3.2, I'll buy you a cookie.
Please dont use Texas as an example because thats 1 state and perhaps 1 or 2 schools in the entire nation (most people wont have that as option.) The salaries you are also throwing around are not the norm anymore because the economy is still in the crapper and everyone is getting a financial "haircut" and are smiling because they want any type of a job and they wont bicker over 10 to 20 grand.
These jobs do exist. I can give your more examples, but it would be a waste of time. I do agree the economy is in the crapper. A first year dentist is lucky to break 6 figures before taxes right now.

And my last point (which is the same thing i've said before) its is ridiculously harder to get into a top 20 mba or law program than any dental school in america. So how can you really compare anything? Getting into NYU dental is not the same as getting into NYU MBA. Dont believe me? Please try it. So while it is cheaper to go to one versus the other its not easier. Also if you're thinking about debt and what not, you still have to factor in the other perks of being your own boss, etc. Otherwise the argument is purely moot, no one picks a career based on how much debt they'll incur. That's just damn silly. If I wanted to do that I would simply go and be a hygienist and finish a 2 year associates program and make $50/hr at an office in Brooklyn. (just like my friend did.)
Why are you comparing NYU's MBA program to their dental school. Why not compare a top MBA program to a top dental program? I believe the guys at the top dental schools would definitely have the smarts to get into a top MBA program. We can just agree to disagree.

Also last time I checked the ADEA handbook most d-school students don't have 3.7s. Average d-school student has a 3.55 GPA and a 3.48 sGPA.
When did I say the average of all dental schools? I clearly stated the top dental schools.

PS D-schools are not ranked. If you go to Penn its just as expensive as NYU, while its harder to get into one vs. the other, thats not the point of the thread. The debt of one is equal to the other, so please dont compare apples and oranges by mixing debt and level of difficulty.

Jesus man. Why are you so butt hurt with the fact that the increase in tuition might not make this career a wise decision. We don't know how this is going to effect us, because frankly we are the first to graduate with this enormous debt compared to most of our colleagues. I'm curious to see how the recent grads with 400k of debt are doing right now. I'd like to see what their opinion is after 5 year when that mountain of debt still exists. I'd like to see how they feel in 10 years when they are still paying off that debt. It's much more difficult to establish your practice and move on in life when you have a 400k mountain of debt on your back. I mean, tuition will keep increasing. When will people look and say, man... you know that price tag at that school really isn't worth 4 more years of schooling and most likely a starting salary below 6 figs? How much? 550k? 600? 700k? Like I said, the question was asked if it was worth it. I presented a hypothetical that it wasn't worth it if your dmd came with a high price tag and IF there is a better option presented in another field for a cheaper price. With that said, I obviously think dentistry is a great field or I wouldn't be wasting 4 years and 400k for it.

I'm going to stop spraying kerosine in this fire now. I never meant to compare law school or an MBA to a dental school. Just suggested that those paths might have been a better option given the right circumstances.

wired202808 · Dec 18, 2011

longhornpride said:
Jesus man. Why are you so butt hurt with the fact that the increase in tuition might not make this career a wise decision. We don't know how this is going to effect us, because frankly we are the first to graduate with this enormous debt compared to most of our colleagues. I'm curious to see how the recent grads with 400k of debt are doing right now. I'd like to see what their opinion is after 5 year when that mountain of debt still exists. I'd like to see how they feel in 10 years when they are still paying off that debt. It's much more difficult to establish your practice and move on in life when you have a 400k mountain of debt on your back. I mean, tuition will keep increasing. When will people look and say, man... you know that price tag at that school really isn't worth 4 more years of schooling and most likely a starting salary below 6 figs? How much? 550k? 600? 700k? Like I said, the question was asked if it was worth it. I presented a hypothetical that it wasn't worth it if your dmd came with a high price tag and IF there is a better option presented in another field for a cheaper price. With that said, I obviously think dentistry is a great field or I wouldn't be wasting 4 years and 400k for it.

I'm going to stop spraying kerosine in this fire now. I never meant to compare law school or an MBA to a dental school. Just suggested that those paths might have been a better option given the right circumstances.

Those paths are not better options because you and most people on here would not get accepted into those programs. Not to mention picking a career based on the debt factor is like buying a car because it looks "pretty." You should act mature, do your research, and understand that the sky is not falling. Everyone gets into debt, yes some people will pay more to get out of it but everyone will be fine and everyone will make a good living.

Dentistry is a better field than law or MBA and that debt is called an "investment" into your future. Those professions are NOT better choices even based on debt because they offer other detriments.

Please stop closing your eyes at all other factors besides debt. That's an unrealistic approach to life.

PS heres a link because you are using misinformation to argue your point.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/george-washington-law-school.html

Use the fact that people are sneaking into law school via the part time program and you have stats as low as 3.16. Additionally there are no prereqs for law school so you can take easy courses and wind up with a 3.8 gpa in a philosophy major. So please dont compare a 3.8 pre law GPA to a 3.8 sGPA for d-school. The only factor that matters for law is the LSAT. Why? Because its damn hard and separates the boys from the men. Most adcoms know that prelaw GPAs are inflated and aren't real. English majors and Philosophy majors dont struggle in their classes like Bio or Chem majors. And again its a lot harder to score above the 90th percentile on the LSAT then it is on the DAT.

Either way to conclude my point theres no way in hell law (especially) is a better career move than dentistry, because you cannot guarantee yourself a spot at a top 20 law school vs. a spot at ANY dental school.

PS you're the only "butt hurt" individual out here. I'm not paranoid about the debt at all. I got a master plan

Bereno · Dec 18, 2011

wired202808 said:
Those paths are not better options because you and most people on here would not get accepted into those programs. Not to mention picking a career based on the debt factor is like buying a car because it looks "pretty." You should act mature, do your research, and understand that the sky is not falling. Everyone gets into debt, yes some people will pay more to get out of it but everyone will be fine and everyone will make a good living.
Not everyone will be fine and make a good living... Many will, but many won't. This debt is very real, and should be deliberately delt with. Just saying lol

Dentistry is a better field than law or MBA and that debt is called an "investment" into your future. Those professions are NOT better choices even based on debt because they offer other detriments.
One being better than another depends a LOT on your personality. Some will totally prefer MBA, others, Law, others Dentistry.

Please stop closing your eyes at all other factors besides debt. That's an unrealistic approach to life.

PS heres a link because you are using misinformation to argue your point.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/george-washington-law-school.html

Use the fact that people are sneaking into law school via the part time program and you have stats as low as 3.16. Additionally there are no prereqs for law school so you can take easy courses and wind up with a 3.8 gpa in a philosophy major. So please dont compare a 3.8 pre law GPA to a 3.8 sGPA for d-school. The only factor that matters for law is the LSAT. Why? Because its damn hard and separates the boys from the men. Most adcoms know that prelaw GPAs are inflated and aren't real. English majors and Philosophy majors dont struggle in their classes like Bio or Chem majors. And again its a lot harder to score above the 90th percentile on the LSAT then it is on the DAT.
I spoke with quite a few faculty members of various Law schools, (one of whom was the dean of admissions for Berkeley), and there was a fairly common theme: GPA matters, and it matters a lot. If you take filler classes, they look at that. They also emphasize what school you went to, and factor that into your application. Yes, the LSAT is super important, but GPA is right there with it. I would disagree that getting into the 90th percentile is "harder" than getting into the 90th percentile for the DAT. they are both the 90th percentile lol. The LSAT is learned. Its a game if you will. Once you learn the rules of the LSAT, you can do very well. The DAT is a crammers test. Once you learn the material in class, you cram for it and see how much you remembered. Essentially they are totally different tests and utilize very different parts of the brain - I dont think you can compare them.

Either way to conclude my point theres no way in hell law (especially) is a better career move than dentistry, because you cannot guarantee yourself a spot at a top 20 law school vs. a spot at ANY dental school.
Once again, I this depends. For example a good friend of mine just got a job at Wilson Sonsini Goodrich and Rosati. He will be making more money than any of us on this forum, easily. This is a phenomenal career lol. However, not everyone can get these great jobs. Law is very bi-modal, whereas dentistry is not. That makes law more risky in my opinion, but others thrive on that.

PS you're the only "butt hurt" individual out here. I'm not paranoid about the debt at all. I got a master plan

Hey buddy, I thought I would add a few comments just since I went through the whole law school app process.

SeattleRDH · Dec 18, 2011

yappy said:
RElitive to the time spent/income I always thought DH was a pretty good deal. I know that the program around my town at the CC is ~3k for the program + equipment.

This was per a 20 year old DH I talked to at a practice who said she was making $38 an hour. Not bad.

1900/ month? whoa.

Washington has the largest scope of practice for hygienists and has some of the most competitive programs to get into. About a third of my class (myself included) had a bachelors degree prior to applying. The rest of the class had to take 2 years worth of prereqs prior to enrolling. It's frustrating that the degree is only an associates since it really takes 4 years to complete. The tuition at my school was double the normal tuition of the technical college since the faculty to student ration was smaller. That, and a $10,000 books and instrument issue made my hygiene program quite expensive.

So, as a non-trad with a 4 year bachelors, 2 year associates, and 2 more years of dental school prereqs, it makes for a hefty student loan payment. It is especially frustrating that when I talk to people about the fact that I have no interviews with my 3.3 GPA they say "maybe you should think about a masters". IF I only get accepted to an expensive private school I honestly might turn it down and just reapply to my state school. A masters is out of the question!

In my 20s I just borrowed what i needed for my education figuring i would have a good job and be able to pay it off no problem. Now i know debt is something to take seriously!

NileBDS · Dec 18, 2011

Longhorn, wired. We get it. Thank you.

Now, back to our regular programming! Debt!

How many of dental students or pre-dents here are worried that they will perhaps not be making enough money in dentistry, and hence will have a significantly different lifestyle than promised, or different than what you had in mind prior to getting into school?

How many here think that it is a financially wise decision to take out even more debt for a specialty program, just to be able to make enough money as a dentist and pay back your student loans?

wired202808 · Dec 18, 2011

Bereno said:
Hey buddy, I thought I would add a few comments just since I went through the whole law school app process.

Bereno I have to respectfully disagree on all points:

Debt is debt. If you plan to go to a super expensive school then you have to think about how you plan to pay it off. Most people dont get the full ride aka 400K in loans, I think the average d-school student loan balance was 250K and then again thats repayable. But you have to live within your means. I doubt anyone will be broke or living on the street. Maybe some people wont open up their own shop for another 10 years but hey it is what it is and you do your best. Its still nice to make 100K as your own boss rather than work for a corporate entity and have no personal life.

90th percentile on the DAT and LSAT are two different things and cannot be compared. And I do think the LSAT is a lot harder and many things on it cannot be learned as fast or efficiently. The DAT is a pure knowledge exam, you either know it or you dont.

While many adcoms told you about the GPA, the results are the opposite. See the link I used or check the US News links. Students often get int with subpar GPAs. The LSAT is the #1 indicator, I think its hard to argue that point, there is a lot of data behind that. I think when speaking to adcoms they tend to say one thing and do the other. I trust the data behind their statements and in this it doesnt add up. You can go to GW law part time with a 3.3 GPA and then transfer into the full time class. Meanwhile, you cant go to GW with a 150 on the LSAT, I think thats the opposite between law and d-school.

Law: High LSAT, average GPA
D-school: High GPA, average DAT (19 seems to be OK as long as you have a normal 3.5 to 3.6 GPA)

The last comment about jobs is simply one person's experience. Most of my friends from top 20 got their offers deferred or rescinded when the economy hit the crapper and a lot of other friends are simply miserable in their 80 hour a week big law jobs. Its no way to live your life.

I know the thread is all about the debt, but you can't judge a career by one facet, Its not fair to you or to the profession, there are multiple reasons why one should go into a debt filled profession and I think dentistry will be a fine enough profession to make good $$$ if you plan accordingly and work correctly. Dont take out loans you can't pay back and dont buy a 70K car and 500K house when you graduate and you will be fine. Most markets will pay grades at least 100K upon start and there are tons of options.

Again I am not the believer of the sky is falling theory and I think its best to keep a cool and collected attitude. It could be a lot worse, we could all be miserable lawyers who finished tier 4 toilet schools and owe 200K in loans with zero chances of any real job prospects or any real future.

The DEBT REAPER!

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