Why Are There Less Minorities In Medicine?

here are a few thoughts for what they are worth, probably just repeating what has already been said 10000000 times, i hate to beat the dead horse, but here goes..

1) we have an extremely diverse country so we need to train equally diverse physicians to treat everyone to the highest possible medical standards (which includes a first-hand cultural understanding)...if we trained only non-minority physicians, a huge population (the majority in california) would become more marginalized than they are today...currently, our best efforts at increasing representation in medicine are still failing

2) we need to see success given resources, not success on an absolute scale. by that i mean, if priveledge/status/resources can be viewed on a point scale, a URM that starts off @ -10 and works himself/herself up to a 50 is a lot more impressive than a non-URM who starts at 45 and works up to 60...(real life examples of barriers that minorities in underpriviledged communities face are: poor hs science education, necessity to provide income to family for rent/food, social/cultural low expectations, peers who often are not successful and even encourage failure, lack of proper role models like supportive school counselors, teachers and momma and poppa MDs (legacy), just plain negative inertia)



the real sad thing is that the applicants who are truly underrepresented and could contribute most to these threads are the ones that are holding 1 or 2 jobs right now just to pay the obscene cost of med school apps (just like they did to pay for college and probably to contribute to their family income during HS) SDN would be a completely different place if it represented all applicants, not just the ones priveledged enough to be able to waste hours and hours on it..........just a thought

I don't know why people hate these type of posts so much, they always provide me with some comedic relief.

Doh! me says there aren't many minorities in medicine because there is a minority of minorities applying to a field that a *minority* of both majorities and minorities apply for. Those that do choose a minority field are naturally going to be composed of a majority of majorities applying.

eh i screwd it up too,lol too many minorities and majorities to keep straight

Dr.Pdizzle said:

I don't know why people hate these type of posts so much, they always provide me with some comedic relief.

Doh! me says there aren't many minorities in medicine because there is a minority of minorities applying to a field that a majority of both majorities and minorities apply for. Those that do choose a minority field are naturally going to be composed of a majority of majorities applying.

Click to expand...

well played, sir!

intrinsic differences. i dont care if nobody else has the guts to say it. i suspect a mass no confidence vote now. typical.

ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

hatter said:

So why are there so many asians in the health services anyway? Is it because asians are more kindhearted and altruistic, or are they better at convincing people that they are, or is it just because they have better numbers/ecs?

sorry to get off topic

Click to expand...

I was told by an asian (and have also read it a bunch on these forums) that it's too make their parents proud, and/or their parents pressure them into it.

this is the weirdest thing i've read all morning. and i've been reading the URM threads constantly bc they're so much fun.

Click to expand...

I think it was a typo, he meant to type descent (descended)

fpr85 said:

I was told by an asian (and have also read it a bunch on these forums) that it's too make their parents proud, and/or their parents pressure them into it.

Click to expand...

I have also heard the same from Indians and Asians alike. Apparently the only profession their parents see fit for them is Medicine. So many of them are just in it because of their parent's wishes.
So that is the answer to one of the questions: how come there are more Asians and Indians than other minorities in medicine? It's a cultural thing.

represent_CV said:

here are a few thoughts for what they are worth, probably just repeating what has already been said 10000000 times, i hate to beat the dead horse, but here goes..

1) we have an extremely diverse country so we need to train equally diverse physicians to treat everyone to the highest possible medical standards (which includes a first-hand cultural understanding)...if we trained only non-minority physicians, a huge population (the majority in california) would become more marginalized than they are today...currently, our best efforts at increasing representation in medicine are still failing

2) we need to see success given resources, not success on an absolute scale. by that i mean, if priveledge/status/resources can be viewed on a point scale, a URM that starts off @ -10 and works himself/herself up to a 50 is a lot more impressive than a non-URM who starts at 45 and works up to 60...(real life examples of barriers that minorities in underpriviledged communities face are: poor hs science education, necessity to provide income to family for rent/food, social/cultural low expectations, peers who often are not successful and even encourage failure, lack of proper role models like supportive school counselors, teachers and momma and poppa MDs (legacy), just plain negative inertia)



the real sad thing is that the applicants who are truly underrepresented and could contribute most to these threads are the ones that are holding 1 or 2 jobs right now just to pay the obscene cost of med school apps (just like they did to pay for college and probably to contribute to their family income during HS) SDN would be a completely different place if it represented all applicants, not just the ones priveledged enough to be able to waste hours and hours on it..........just a thought

Click to expand...

While I totally agree with what you say for 2), which is why I'm a huge fan of the AA-by-socioeconomic-status route, I have to admit, 1) took me by surprise. What, exactly, is the benefit of having a doctor of one race treat people of that race? I can see why perhaps sharing a similar language or a similar cultural understanding would possibly make a patient more comfortable with a particular doctor, but I see no reason why a white or asian person could not treat a hispanic patient just as well as a hispanic doctor could (given that the language barrier could be overcome). If I were to be treated by, say, an Indian doctor rather than a doctor of my own background I wouldn't feel marginalized in the slightest, even if our cultures are widely different.

MarzH05 said:

Im not sure what you mean by "gave me a break". Are you insinuating that the practice of AA action places URM into medical school that can't handle the workload? The ultimate goal is to diversify the field of medicine and produce good doctors and improve the health of our nation. Adcoms are not just picking an applicant because they are an URM. They actually make sure they have what it takes to succeed in medical school.

Click to expand...

I'll say "hell yes!" If the could hack it then why would they need a stepping stool?

In fact, there was a study done by a liberal on the affects of AA in law students. The study showed that by mis-matching applicants to harder schools then they were prepared for, the students did worse.

Link: http://chronicle.com/free/v51/i12/12a03501.htm

So, does AA give URMs an unfair advantage?

Yes.

Does AA hurt URMs?

Yes.

Orth2006 said:

What the F you talking about. George W. Bush (white male caucasian - C student) didnt he get a break in Yale because his family was rich and famous. Today a C student is the president of the United States. SO much for the "smartest must always be the ones to get the best".

Click to expand...

Kerry wasn't exactly the role model for good grades, either, so I hope you didn't vote for him either.

Re: While I totally agree with what you say for 2), which is why I'm a huge fan of the AA-by-socioeconomic-status route, I have to admit, 1) took me by surprise. What, exactly, is the benefit of having a doctor of one race treat people of that race? I can see why perhaps sharing a similar language or a similar cultural understanding would possibly make a patient more comfortable with a particular doctor, but I see no reason why a white or asian person could not treat a hispanic patient just as well as a hispanic doctor could (given that the language barrier could be overcome). If I were to be treated by, say, an Indian doctor rather than a doctor of my own background I wouldn't feel marginalized in the slightest, even if our cultures are widely different.


I dont think the question is whether or not a doctor of a different race will be capable of treating the patient well. I think that some individuals are a bit skeptical of other races and therefore physicans of those races. Being more comfortable with you doctor is incredibily important to establishing a strong doctor-patient relationship. I believe patients will be more comfortable in disclosing more of their health history and complying with doctor's orders (because of the trust they have developed in the relationship). In no way am I saying that an Indian doctor and a White patient are incapable of developing a strong and positive doctor-patient relationship, but I think that its more likely to occur when the patient feels more comfortable with that physican.

Exactly.
Even though a white/black doctor may overcome the language barriers when it comes to treating spanish-speaking patients, they can never overcome the connotations of the language and the culture. A white doctor won't know what the heck the patient is talking about if he says: "me tome un te de gordolobo", "use una pomada de abeja". This is an example of traditional/regional remedies that have uncommon names. If the patient is ill-educated, they will have a heck of a time trying to figure out what they are. And most doctors I know will probably assume that they know what the patient means and misunderstand the symptoms or causes of the illness.
Many of these people also feel uncomfortable with a "white/impressive/many-times-arrogant" doctor, and are less likely to spill information. Patients don't just need someone to look at a chart, they need someone to treat and understand them.

represent_CV said:

here are a few thoughts for what they are worth, probably just repeating what has already been said 10000000 times, i hate to beat the dead horse, but here goes..

1) we have an extremely diverse country so we need to train equally diverse physicians to treat everyone to the highest possible medical standards (which includes a first-hand cultural understanding)...if we trained only non-minority physicians, a huge population (the majority in california) would become more marginalized than they are today...currently, our best efforts at increasing representation in medicine are still failing

Click to expand...

No, we don't. Should we lower our standards because someone has a different skin color then we do?

2) we need to see success given resources, not success on an absolute scale. by that i mean, if priveledge/status/resources can be viewed on a point scale, a URM that starts off @ -10 and works himself/herself up to a 50 is a lot more impressive than a non-URM who starts at 45 and works up to 60...(real life examples of barriers that minorities in underpriviledged communities face are: poor hs science education, necessity to provide income to family for rent/food, social/cultural low expectations, peers who often are not successful and even encourage failure, lack of proper role models like supportive school counselors, teachers and momma and poppa MDs (legacy), just plain negative inertia)

Click to expand...

And poor whites don't face many of those barriers? Furthermore, should we be involved in social engineering? Will AA really make it so that there isn't any "social/cultural low expectations" or "peers who often are not successful and even encourage failure" How are they supposed to hack med school when they are expected to "provide income to family for rent/food"

So whites aren't affected by a "lack of proper role models like supportive school counselors" (grant it, I had to beat my HS guidence counselor over the head with a baseball bat to get into biology my 1st year of HS. The counselors did nothing for me, and I grew up in a middle-uppermiddle class area).


Do you honestly believe that lowering the bar for URMs is going to help? Aren't we just actually saying in the end while patting them on their head, "Don't worry. I know you couldn't hack high school or college, but its not your fault. We'll give you a second (or third, or fourth) chance. We know that you didn't achieve to the same standard as your med student peers, but don't worry about it. We'll give you a stool and lower the bar for you." Isn't that just as harmful?

hi seilienne
i depends on how we define "the best treatment" ...

i believe that not only curing the patients condition, but making the patient feel comfortable and understanding where they are coming from (culturally) is a necessary part of being a good physician

so, i would agree with you that if you assume a white or asian person can adequately understand the culture/background/liefstyle/language of a hispanic person, then they would be able to treat that patient just as well as a hispanic doctor could....

however, i believe that this is not an easy task that simply taking a medical spanish class or cultural competency class can teach someone...i believe that it requires a long-term dedication to that patient population with prolonged exposure to the lifestyle and issues they face...thus i believe that a physician who grew up within a specific demographic will generally have a better idea of how to relate and treat that demographic's specific issues and concerns

now, this is not to say doctors could or should only treat patients within their own demographic, but understanding and relating to your patients can go a long way with making them feel safe and comfortable thereby providing better medical care and justifying the need to admit a diverse medical school class

Now that is the sort of logical explanation I was hoping for. Bravo.

While I still think that AA shouldn't be ethnicity-based, that has to be the best justification for such a system I've seen thus far.

hi siggy

here are my responses to your comments::

"No, we don't. Should we lower our standards because someone has a different skin color then we do?"

-- no one ever mentioned skin color, even people within the same race can have different skin colors...this comment is just ignorant

-- also, we aren't "lowering standards" because the standard is to admit the person best qualified to TREAT THE PATIENT...if you think that numbers (ability to test) should be the sole standard in picking the next generation of good doctors, then you are very sadly mistaken

"Do you honestly believe that lowering the bar for URMs is going to help? Aren't we just actually saying in the end while patting them on their head, "Don't worry. I know you couldn't hack high school or college, but its not your fault. We'll give you a second (or third, or fourth) chance. We know that you didn't achieve to the same standard as your med student peers, but don't worry about it. We'll give you a stool and lower the bar for you." Isn't that just as harmful?"

-- i believe that no one is 'lowering the bar' or 'patting them on their head' and i do believe that medical schools are accepting the people who will be the best doctors...there is no correlation between how good people test (gpa/mcat scores) and being a good doctor (at least i haven't seen one) ... qualifications go beyond scores my friend, and scores do not predict intelligence...sorry to break it to you

-- also, the fact that a URM applicant is even in the position to apply to medical school is a testament to their commitment to medicine, determination, hard-work, self-motivation, ability to perseverve and overall strength of character that is necessary in the medical profession......i say we need more genuine doctors and less arrogant, self-satisfying, ego-hungry docs

For the 10,000th time, getting into med school is a whole lot more than GPA + MCAT. Why can't you people beat that into your premed brains? There is NO SUCH THING as and under-qualified student admitted to med school in the US. Seriously, if GPA and MCAT was all there would be no need for AMCAS, secondaries or interviews. It should be obvious to all of you that the fact that there are so many variables and steps to get into med school that it is a highly SUBJECTIVE proccess. There is absolutely no "lowering of the bar" for URMs for med school just like in undergrad admissions there is none for athletes or legacies. It is up to the school to decide who it is they want. Take it or leave it. I have posted on SDN before that the reason somple people resent the whole URM/AA thing is that they harbor some amount of insecurity about their own standing and own "credentials". Why are so worried?

a

represent_CV said:

hi siggy

here are my responses to your comments::

"No, we don't. Should we lower our standards because someone has a different skin color then we do?"

-- no one ever mentioned skin color, even people within the same race can have different skin colors...this comment is just ignorant

Click to expand...

Well, URM is saying that there is no such thing as a white, Asian, etc that had a hard childhood or came from a less then ideal situation? Why should someone get an advantage or a helping hand just because of the land that their ancestors emigrated from?

There are blacks that had a rough childhood and there are whites that had it just as bad that grew up next door to them. The black applicant WOULD get an advantage soly because of his heritage. Something he can't control.

-- also, we aren't "lowering standards" because the standard is to admit the person best qualified to TREAT THE PATIENT...if you think that numbers (ability to test) should be the sole standard in picking the next generation of good doctors, then you are very sadly mistaken

Click to expand...

No pre-med is qualified to treat any patient as a MD. We go to medical school to learn the trade of medicine. I'm not saying that schools should look only at numbers. There are other important things, such as clinical experience and research. Just because your the applicant's ancestors came from a different place in the world then mine does not make it right to give them an extra step up.

"Do you honestly believe that lowering the bar for URMs is going to help? Aren't we just actually saying in the end while patting them on their head, "Don't worry. I know you couldn't hack high school or college, but its not your fault. We'll give you a second (or third, or fourth) chance. We know that you didn't achieve to the same standard as your med student peers, but don't worry about it. We'll give you a stool and lower the bar for you." Isn't that just as harmful?"

-- i believe that no one is 'lowering the bar' or 'patting them on their head' and i do believe that medical schools are accepting the people who will be the best doctors...there is no correlation between how good people test (gpa/mcat scores) and being a good doctor (at least i haven't seen one) ... qualifications go beyond scores my friend, and scores do not predict intelligence...sorry to break it to you

Click to expand...

Sorry to break it to you, but it has been shown in law students that AA hurts their education. Furthermore, MCAT scores have been linked to USMLE scores. http://www.academicmedicine.org/cgi/content/abstract/80/10/910

Furthermore, if there wasn't any correlation, then why do medical schools even care about your test scrores? If one person is going to be hired or admitted over another soley because their ancestors came from a special place then it is racism. Grant it, reverse racism, but it is still racism.

-- also, the fact that a URM applicant is even in the position to apply to medical school is a testament to their commitment to medicine, determination, hard-work, self-motivation, ability to perseverve and overall strength of character that is necessary in the medical profession......i say we need more genuine doctors and less arrogant, self-satisfying, ego-hungry docs

Click to expand...

So, all URMs need help and it is a testiment to their ability, regardless of what their actual family background is.

In other words, you are saying that those poor URMs need a helping hand and that is the only way for them to succeed AND non-URMs lack any of those traits and are just score-******. And this view isn't racist?

gostudy said:

For the 10,000th time, getting into med school is a whole lot more than GPA + MCAT. Why can't you people beat that into your premed brains? There is NO SUCH THING as and under-qualified student admitted to med school in the US. Seriously, if GPA and MCAT was all there would be no need for AMCAS, secondaries or interviews. It should be obvious to all of you that the fact that there are so many variables and steps to get into med school that it is a highly SUBJECTIVE proccess. There is absolutely no "lowering of the bar" for URMs for med school just like in undergrad admissions there is none for athletes or legacies. It is up to the school to decide who it is they want. Take it or leave it. I have posted on SDN before that the reason somple people resent the whole URM/AA thing is that they harbor some amount of insecurity about their own standing and own "credentials". Why are so worried?

Click to expand...

Yes, there are more to medicine then GPA/MCAT. The location on this earth that your ancestors came from and the skin pigment associated with it should not be a factor, though.

Siggy said:

Yes, there are more to medicine then GPA/MCAT. The location on this earth that your ancestors came from and the skin pigment associated with it should not be a factor, though.

Click to expand...

HERE WE GO WITH THE SKIN PIGMENT AGAIN!!!!

I am hispanic and I am whiter than many white people. So are my parents (it's stupid for people to assume hispanics are all dark, remember we are a mixture of white + natives). It's not about the skin color, it's about making up for the disparities in healthcare and in society. Racism is still prevalent. When it is no longer necessary we will part with AA. But right now I think it's here to stay.

Will anyone here deny that giving preference to one race over another race is racism?

Siggy said:

Yes, there are more to medicine then GPA/MCAT. The location on this earth that your ancestors came from and the skin pigment associated with it should not be a factor, though.

Click to expand...

Why not? Med schools are free to choose their criteria. If you say that then you should say that volunteer hours should not be a factor in med admissions. And most premeds have padded their app. with volunteer activities to appease adcoms. Moreover, residency review committees don't really consider time spent volunteering in med school for their rankings. And residency is essentially where you become a "real" doctor (i.e. if you want to practice). Race can be one of many criteria considered by med school adcoms.

And also explain to me how that is different than athletes and legacies getting preference for undergrad admissions. It is very important to your point arguing againstthe consideration of race in me school admissions.

Siggy said:

Will anyone here deny that giving preference to one race over another race is racism?

Click to expand...

if you put it that way, yes. But you are being unreasonable. People smarter than you created these laws because they have studied the population and have come to the conclusion that it was necessary. I dare you to go argue with them.
It's not about the race/skin color, etc. It's about the disparities between cultures. If a white candidate was educated in good private schools, it is only logical that he will have better scores, probably better ec's, better interships and research experiences, etc. If the black counterpart grew up in the projects, in a low-resource high school, it is only logical he will have better scores. Now, let's say the white guy has a 3.9 from Harvard, a 35 MCAT. He is a good candidate. The black candidate has a 3.6 and a 29 MCAT. Who do you think holds the greater merit, the one who was only doing what he was taught to do, or the one who rose from the bottom to where he is right now. I would grant admission to both of them.

siggy, you're right, med schools look for more than just gpa/mcat, they look for research, community service, clinical experience....

but you also forgot some important things...

they also look for life experience, language abilities (are you bilingual), are you culturally-aware, do you have a passion for a specific part of medicine, etc...

i.e. "soft skills" that will make you a more well-rounded, competent and effective physician

gostudy said:

Why not? Med schools are free to choose their criteria. If you say that then you should say that volunteer hours should not be a factor in med admissions. And most premeds have padded their app. with volunteer activities to appease adcoms. Moreover, residency review committees don't really consider time spent volunteering in med school for their rankings. And residency is essentially where you become a "real" doctor (i.e. if you want to practice). Race can be one of many criteria considered by med school adcoms.

And also explain to me how that is different than athletes and legacies getting preference for undergrad admissions. It is very important to your point arguing againstthe consideration of race in me school admissions.

Click to expand...

1. I've never claimed to support either.

2. Legacy admissions are just as much of a sham as AA admissions.

3. The difference between Race/Legacy and athletic admissions in undergrad is that your ability in a sport is based off of how much you work for it. You can control your ability and control your GPA. You can not control your race.

4. Volunteering in medical situations is not really padding. By volunteering or working in a healthcare field you are telling the ADCOM that you already have experience working in healthcare. Again, this is also something that YOU, the applicant, have control over.

5. Public schools are not allowed to just make up any old criteria they want. Limits on AA have been established by the US Supreme Court in the Gratz v BOLLINGER and Regents of the University of California v. Bakke decisions. Private schools, on the other hand, are allowed to admit who ever they darn well please because they are a private institution. That being said, you can always put restrictions on grant money to limit any racism that may be present.

6. Finally, you have to get through medical school before you even think about trying to match into a residency. True, volunteering doesn't mean squat for residency. Grant it, you should also have a ton of clinical experience since, by the time you're applying to residencys, you would have over a year of rotating through different specilities.

How much control over volunteering does a person have when:
1) she/he has to work ~12-20 hrs/wk, or even more.
2) needs to get out of school in 4 yrs because unlike other people, mommy and daddy are not paying for it; therefore, taking 12 hrs/semester is a laughable idea for them.
3) he/she does not have a car, money for taxi, etc. It's hard to find a ride, to find someone whose schedule matches yours, etc.
4) does not have a daddy MD to get him/her an intership at a hospital or clinic (as I know many people get them).

baylormed said:

if you put it that way, yes. But you are being unreasonable. People smarter than you created these laws because they have studied the population and have come to the conclusion that it was necessary. I dare you to go argue with them.

Click to expand...

There is no law demanding affirmative action. Only a few presidential executive orders which left the term "affirmative action" undefined. Furthermore, if you want to take the stand of "don't question things, it was made by smarter people," then I hope you're a support of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

It's not about the race/skin color, etc. It's about the disparities between cultures. If a white candidate was educated in good private schools, it is only logical that he will have better scores, probably better ec's, better interships and research experiences, etc. If the black counterpart grew up in the projects, in a low-resource high school, it is only logical he will have better scores. Now, let's say the white guy has a 3.9 from Harvard, a 35 MCAT. He is a good candidate. The black candidate has a 3.6 and a 29 MCAT. Who do you think holds the greater merit, the one who was only doing what he was taught to do, or the one who rose from the bottom to where he is right now. I would grant admission to both of them.

Click to expand...

[/quote]

If it wasn't about race, then how come:
1. A white child in a poor inner-city school doesn't get the same AA/URM boost?
2. How come an URM from a rich private school still gets that same AA/URM boost?

I'm sure that you would grant admission to both. I would to. Given the current averages, both should be admitted, regardless of their URM status (i.e. race). Unfortunately, you can't admit every applicant to medical school. There are simply not enough seats and setting aside seats or giving people a boost over others in terms of how a school doles out those seats on the basis of URM status (URM status, BTW, is based off of the applicant's race alone) is racist.

Did it bother anyone else that "less" should have been "fewer" in the title? That kills me.

Well, let me first say that I'm not entirely comfortable AA. I'm not entirely sure as to what the AAMC's stance on affirmative action as I am an osteopathic type.

However, when I look at many of the really poor and crime ridden areas around where our EMS service goes, I get the feeling that there has to be some sort of AA. Personally, I kind of wish it wasn't based on race or skin color, but on poverty.

Thus I kind of support an AA that is based on family income, but as for now at least we have something, rather than nothing.

Well, here's another AA picture. Enjoy.




The above is sort of a good rebutall picture to those against AA. However, I would say that there are also plenty of poor white, asian, and indian folks that need a helping hand too.

AA should be based on common poverty and not on skin color, but at least it is something for the time being.

baylormed said:

How much control over volunteering does a person have when:
1) she/he has to work ~12-20 hrs/wk, or even more.
2) needs to get out of school in 4 yrs because unlike other people, mommy and daddy are not paying for it; therefore, taking 12 hrs/semester is a laughable idea for them.
3) he/she does not have a car, money for taxi, etc. It's hard to find a ride, to find someone whose schedule matches yours, etc.
4) does not have a daddy MD to get him/her an intership at a hospital or clinic (as I know many people get them).

Click to expand...

Lets see, I work 24 hours/wk (2 12 hour shifts) as an EMT, I just got done with a 18 unit quarter (my school has 10 week quarters. It must be nice at those schools where grades are based off of more then 2 tests), I volunteer 4 hours a week at a hospital plus put in 3-5 hours a week as a part of the leadership team (go me...). It can be done. Ohh, and my dad isn't a doctor. Neither is my mom. All it takes is a little research. Or listening to the annoucements in class or getting invloved with a pre-med club. The program I'm involved with I've heard about several times before I was even interested.

For everything else, there are loans. Most people don't just buy a car with cash. Most people don't just pay for school with cash. You aren't getting an education to be making minimum wage at the local fast food place.

CatsandCradles said:

[picture]

Well, let me first say that I'm not entirely comfortable AA. I'm not entirely sure as to what the AAMC's stance on affirmative action as I am an osteopathic type.

However, when I look at many of the really poor and crime ridden areas around where our EMS service goes, I get the feeling that there has to be some sort of AA. Personally, I kind of wish it wasn't based on race or skin color, but on poverty.

Thus I kind of support an AA that is based on family income, but as for now at least we have something, rather than nothing.

Well, here's another AA picture. Enjoy.


[picture]

The above is sort of a good rebutall picture to those against AA. However, I would say that there are also plenty of poor white, asian, and indian folks that need a helping hand too.

AA should be based on common poverty and not on skin color, but at least it is something for the time being.

Click to expand...

A witty picture (saying) proves nothing. Education won't fix the the structual problems in these societies, such as gangs, lack of expectations, bad schools. How many rich minorities live in south central? Probably not very many. They want to get out of the poor places like that too.

vn2004 said:

this is the weirdest thing i've read all morning. and i've been reading the URM threads constantly bc they're so much fun.

Click to expand...

Agree... although I've seen plenty of spelling error from 'dreamcrusher'

MissMary said:

I dont think the question is whether or not a doctor of a different race will be capable of treating the patient well. I think that some individuals are a bit skeptical of other races and therefore physicans of those races. Being more comfortable with you doctor is incredibily important to establishing a strong doctor-patient relationship. I believe patients will be more comfortable in disclosing more of their health history and complying with doctor's orders (because of the trust they have developed in the relationship). In no way am I saying that an Indian doctor and a White patient are incapable of developing a strong and positive doctor-patient relationship, but I think that its more likely to occur when the patient feels more comfortable with that physican.

Click to expand...

I was always wondering, how do people in other countries feel about organizations such as doctors without borders and with doctors from america coming and treating them and building clinics for them. Are they unwilling to be treated or being treated inaffectively becuase these doctors come from America and know absolutely nothing about their culture? Of course not, they take what they can get because they lack doctors, but in America apparently getting medical care is not good enough, your doctor has to know your culture too to treat you. I find this interesting. As long as a doctor shows sympathy and compassion to his/her patients, what does race/culture have to do with it??

TheProwler said:

Education won't solve their problems? It's a CYCLE. People have low expectations because nobody can accomplish anything without an extremely strong will. When your mom's snorting crack, your sister's baby daddy is dealing off the back porch with some shady dudes, and your teacher barely graduated college and doesn't give a dang about your ability to read, only his next paycheck, just how do you expect someone to just "rise up and overcome"? That's great that you have a job as an EMT and pay for things on your own - I'm an EMT that pays for everything on my own too - but I'm grateful for the solid education I got and the stable neighborhood (and stable parents) that I grew up with.

Click to expand...

Of course the opposite is that AA somehow fixes this. What is needed is a cultural/societal change. I took an intersting course my freshman year called "Why Some Countries Are Rich and Others Are Poor" based off of the book The Elusive Quest for Growth: Economists’ Adventures and Misadventures in the Tropics. You know what the one thing that seperated rich contries from poor countries every single time? Birthrate. Not education, resources, climate. Everything else had plenty of counter examples.

What needs to happen is a change in culture, American Culture. I'm not going to say that kids from poor neighborhoods start the same as everyone else. When your neighborhood is entertainment for everyone else, which local news in my area basically is, of course you're only going to see messages about murder and robbery and gang activity. What sort of message does it send, though, when the education system also tells you that you're going to get a boost because your situation. What sort of message does it send when even the college system doesn't expect them to achieve?


Finally, I find it interesting how no one has even commented on the study that shows that AA hurts URM law school students. So now these URMs (who people believe deserve to have the bar lowered for them) drop out of law school and have even more debt and are even futher behind.

Here is the link incase you missed it the first time around. http://chronicle.com/free/v51/i12/12a03501.htm

TheProwler said:

Where did you go to school? What kind of property taxes paid for your school?

Click to expand...

UC Irvine.

TheProwler said:

Picture a doctor in your mind. Now, if someone walked into your room and looked radically different from that image, would you not be taken aback a little? This is even more the case if the patient is older. Many older people have deeply-rooted prejudices/preconceived notions, and would much rather have their doctor be, say, a 6' 50-year old white male with strong features.

As for MSF and such, I think a lot of those people are just extremely grateful for the chance at medical care, but there are some who are suspicious of the "intruders."

Click to expand...

Right, if you think there is a culture clash between a white doctors and a hispanic patient living in America, I shudder to think the culture clash between a American and say a poor native of a country within Africa. Also it is also rather comical when you can't understand a word your doctor is saying due to a thick accent. I know some indian doctors living in the US for 30+ who still have strong indian accents. Now that is rough.

TheProwler said:

As for MSF and such, I think a lot of those people are just extremely grateful for the chance at medical care, but there are some who are suspicious of the "intruders."

Click to expand...

So the best way to fight racism (fear of the intruders) is with racism?

hatter said:

Right, if you think there is a culture clash between a white doctors and a hispanic patient living in America, I shudder to think the culture clash between a American and say a poor native of a country within Africa. Also it is also rather comical when you can't understand a word your doctor is saying due to a thick accent. I know some indian doctors living in the US for 30+ who still have strong indian accents. Now that is rough.

Click to expand...

Of course there is no culture clash between a black doctor who has spent his entire life in the United States when he goes over to Africa for the first time.

fpr85 said:

I was told by an asian (and have also read it a bunch on these forums) that it's too make their parents proud, and/or their parents pressure them into it.

Click to expand...

it used to be that way, but these days, the (asian/indian) kids have more say in their career.

TheProwler said:

No - grade school/high school? What's the median income in that school district? (assuming you went to a public school?)

Click to expand...

Fountain Valley High School, Fulton Middle School, and Tamura Elementry school if you truely need to know. All public schools. All in a nice middle class area.

ignore this post... troubles with firefox

Moving to the Topics in Healthcare forum for now.

Some reminders:

If want to discuss Affirmative Action, please take the discussion to the Everyone forum. If this thread turns into an Affirmative Action discussion, it will be moved to the Everyone forum.

We're not here to enforce opinions, but we do ask that you discuss these issues in a civil manner. If not, we'll have to close the thread.

Carry on...