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I would hate to ruin anyone's dedicated hobby, but tell us what you think.
Jobs Market Threads
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The most crucial issue (effecting the income potential, the autonomy, the leverage with hosp. admin etc.) is the "issue of surplus manpower in pathology"
It should be discussed ad nauseum and then some more. It should be the foremost issue in the mind of every pathologist. It should be raised again and again at every national meeting/ every pathology forum internet or otherwise until a solution is found.
Our speciality has been corroded by beta type pathologists who suffer from an inherent inferiority complex compared to other specialities like surgery and dermatology. The have let the dermatologists, urologists, gastros, hosp admin treat us like "a second grade speciality" too long.
We make the most crucial contribution to patient care viz. diagnosis, but are seldom acknowledged. Most of the time hosp admin lumps us with technicians. Can anything be more demeaning!!!!!
It is time some alphas showed up and started defending the turf and take back our territory.
You cannot silence us (other specialists, hosp. admin, researcher/admin type pseudopathologists, other traitor pathologists etc.........though you are trying your best).
We are going to take back our money, our autonomy, our respect and our hierarchy (at the very top) in hospitals.
And the way to it is through controlling the market supply of pathologists.
Few alphas are better than a legion of betas.
WAKE UP! TAKE CHARGE! DEMAND PATHOLOGY RESIDENCIES BE SLASHED BY ONE THIRD! OTHERWISE BE A SLAVE FOR LIFE...YOUR CHOICE
DO NOT LET "TWISTED" PATHOLOGISTS " IN CONTROL "STEER YOU TO THE WAY OF LOW INCOME/NO RESPECT/NO AUTONOMY!!!!!
ASK URSELF WHY OTHER SPECIALISTS UROLOGISTS ETC. CAN GET AWAY BY TAKING YOUR HARD EARNED INCOME. WHAT HAS MADE THIS POSSIBLE??????????PLEASE WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!
It should be discussed ad nauseum and then some more. It should be the foremost issue in the mind of every pathologist. It should be raised again and again at every national meeting/ every pathology forum internet or otherwise until a solution is found.
Our speciality has been corroded by beta type pathologists who suffer from an inherent inferiority complex compared to other specialities like surgery and dermatology. The have let the dermatologists, urologists, gastros, hosp admin treat us like "a second grade speciality" too long.
We make the most crucial contribution to patient care viz. diagnosis, but are seldom acknowledged. Most of the time hosp admin lumps us with technicians. Can anything be more demeaning!!!!!
It is time some alphas showed up and started defending the turf and take back our territory.
You cannot silence us (other specialists, hosp. admin, researcher/admin type pseudopathologists, other traitor pathologists etc.........though you are trying your best).
We are going to take back our money, our autonomy, our respect and our hierarchy (at the very top) in hospitals.
And the way to it is through controlling the market supply of pathologists.
Few alphas are better than a legion of betas.
WAKE UP! TAKE CHARGE! DEMAND PATHOLOGY RESIDENCIES BE SLASHED BY ONE THIRD! OTHERWISE BE A SLAVE FOR LIFE...YOUR CHOICE
DO NOT LET "TWISTED" PATHOLOGISTS " IN CONTROL "STEER YOU TO THE WAY OF LOW INCOME/NO RESPECT/NO AUTONOMY!!!!!
ASK URSELF WHY OTHER SPECIALISTS UROLOGISTS ETC. CAN GET AWAY BY TAKING YOUR HARD EARNED INCOME. WHAT HAS MADE THIS POSSIBLE??????????PLEASE WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!
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Despite the fact that I've argued elsewhere that there are still some good jobs in pathology (which there are), I would also have to agree with most of these arguments. But I also think it is especially important to encourage top med students ("alpha" types) to consider pathology - these are the people who will keep our field strong and respected among other clinicians - rather than discouraging everyone across the board from entering the field. Cutting back on residency slots (although much easier said than done) would promote this by placing pathology residency positions in higher demand and thus more desirable to top med students. In our current state, I believe many good med students don't consider pathology because they don't want to blow all of their past achievements by entering a field with less professional clout.
I COMPLETELY AGREE PATHOLOGY SHOULD ONLY ALLOW PEOPLE WITH REAL TALENT/INTEREST FOR DIAGNOSIS IN THEIR RANKS.
BUT THAT WILL ONLY BE POSSIBLE IF THE SALARY AND RESPECT ARE COMMENSURATE. ALPHAS BY NATURE ARE OPPOSED TO THE IDEA OF BEING :SECOND BEST. THEY WILL NOT GO INTO A FIELD WITH A LOW INCOME AND RESPECT QUOTIENT.
THE ONLY WAY TO INCREASE SALARIES AND RESPECT IS BY MAKING THE ROLE OF PATHOLOGISTS MORE APPARENT TO EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THE MEDICAL BUSINESS E.G. HOSP. ADMIN, INSURERS ETC.
THE ONLY WAY TO DO THIS IS TO MAKE THEM FEEL THE VALUE OF OUR WORK. DERMATOLOGISTS HAVE LONG WAITING LINE FOR PATIENTS. WHAT DO YOU THINK IF THE SAME WAS TRUE FOR PATHOLOGISTS? WITH OR CRUCIAL ROLES IN PATIENT CARE, THE HOSP ADMIN WILL BE BROUGHT TO ITS VERY KNEES AND WE CAN NEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IN OUR FAVOUR. THE UROLOGIST, DERMATOLOGISTS ETC. WILL BEG US TO READ THEIR STUFF AT OUR RATES👍👍 THE ABUSE WILL END.
THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IF PATHOLOGISTS ARE DIME A DOZEN (AS IS THE CURRENT CASE)
WE SHOULD LEARN FROM DERMATOLOGISTS ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST : CREATE DEMAND BY LIMITING SUPPLY.
BUT THAT WILL ONLY BE POSSIBLE IF THE SALARY AND RESPECT ARE COMMENSURATE. ALPHAS BY NATURE ARE OPPOSED TO THE IDEA OF BEING :SECOND BEST. THEY WILL NOT GO INTO A FIELD WITH A LOW INCOME AND RESPECT QUOTIENT.
THE ONLY WAY TO INCREASE SALARIES AND RESPECT IS BY MAKING THE ROLE OF PATHOLOGISTS MORE APPARENT TO EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THE MEDICAL BUSINESS E.G. HOSP. ADMIN, INSURERS ETC.
THE ONLY WAY TO DO THIS IS TO MAKE THEM FEEL THE VALUE OF OUR WORK. DERMATOLOGISTS HAVE LONG WAITING LINE FOR PATIENTS. WHAT DO YOU THINK IF THE SAME WAS TRUE FOR PATHOLOGISTS? WITH OR CRUCIAL ROLES IN PATIENT CARE, THE HOSP ADMIN WILL BE BROUGHT TO ITS VERY KNEES AND WE CAN NEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IN OUR FAVOUR. THE UROLOGIST, DERMATOLOGISTS ETC. WILL BEG US TO READ THEIR STUFF AT OUR RATES👍👍 THE ABUSE WILL END.
THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IF PATHOLOGISTS ARE DIME A DOZEN (AS IS THE CURRENT CASE)
WE SHOULD LEARN FROM DERMATOLOGISTS ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST : CREATE DEMAND BY LIMITING SUPPLY.
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I can say from experience that these SDN posts have discouraged several highly intelligent medical students from entering pathology. Many of them ended up pursuing radiology even though they enjoyed pathology more. Perhaps this is a good thing, filtering out people who aren't 100 percent committed to the field. But I would argue that this does more injustice to the field of pathology than good. I believe that posters who inundate this forum with bad job market threads should think twice since in the long run they are doing themselves a disservice by discouraging good students from joining their ranks.
I was nearly discouraged. I hate to brag, but I was one of those high board scores, good grades type of student who could have probably gotten into any field. I love pathology, but these SDN posts were a serious deterrent early on in my process of choosing a career. I recognize the challenges facing pathology and the fact that there is a surplus of pathologists. I'm not sure how posting sob stories on SDN will be in any way constructive to solving that problem. All you are doing is discouraging people like me from entering pathology. Maybe you're ultimate goal is to deter residents from applying and keep the numbers low. You're hallucinating if you believe that posting doomsday stories on SDN will achieve this goal. You'll simply be reducing the average quality of applicants, and therefore damaging the field.
Job market issues in pathology need to be addressed, but be very sensitive about the way you present them on this forum. You're discouraging more good applicants than you might realize.
No one is discouraging anyone.
These are just the facts of how the practice of pathology is on a downward spiral due to surplus numbers.
do you suggest we paint a "rosy picture" and trick these students into entering the field with wrong perceptions.
that would be wrong.
If these students are half as intelligent as you say, a simple internet search would bring up numerous other sites decrying the bad job market (not just this one).
The TRUTH IS A BITTER PILL TO SWALLOW BUT IT SAVES YOU MUCH PAIN LATER ON. MY ADVICE "MAN UP AND FACE THE TRUTH INSTEAD OF BEING A CRY BABY"
WE FACE GREAT CHALLENGES IF WE ARE TO SAVE THE FIELD OF PATHOLOGY, AND FACING THE TRUTH IS THE FIRST STEP.
NO MORE LIES!!!!
These are just the facts of how the practice of pathology is on a downward spiral due to surplus numbers.
do you suggest we paint a "rosy picture" and trick these students into entering the field with wrong perceptions.
that would be wrong.
If these students are half as intelligent as you say, a simple internet search would bring up numerous other sites decrying the bad job market (not just this one).
The TRUTH IS A BITTER PILL TO SWALLOW BUT IT SAVES YOU MUCH PAIN LATER ON. MY ADVICE "MAN UP AND FACE THE TRUTH INSTEAD OF BEING A CRY BABY"
WE FACE GREAT CHALLENGES IF WE ARE TO SAVE THE FIELD OF PATHOLOGY, AND FACING THE TRUTH IS THE FIRST STEP.
NO MORE LIES!!!!
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We get it man: pain, suffering, doom. The practice of pathology is apocalyptic. By the way, the colors and the all-caps weaken your arguments. I'm sick of all these threads.
To Raider, exPCM, and everyone else arguing about the job market.
YOUR THREADS DO NOTHING ON THESE BOARDS. IF YOU ARE SO PASSIONATE ABOUT SLASHING RESIDENCY SPOTS, WHY DON'T YOU TAKE IT TO THE NEXT CAP MEETING????
YOUR POSTS HERE ARE MEANINGLESS. WE ALL AREADY KNOW THAT THE JOB MARKET SUCKS ACCORDING TO YOU THROUGH ALL THESE MEANINGLESS THREADS.
YOUR THREADS DO NOTHING ON THESE BOARDS. IF YOU ARE SO PASSIONATE ABOUT SLASHING RESIDENCY SPOTS, WHY DON'T YOU TAKE IT TO THE NEXT CAP MEETING????
YOUR POSTS HERE ARE MEANINGLESS. WE ALL AREADY KNOW THAT THE JOB MARKET SUCKS ACCORDING TO YOU THROUGH ALL THESE MEANINGLESS THREADS.
This was exactly my experience as well. As a med student I had the stats to get into any field I wanted. I almost decided against pathology partly because of all the negative comments on this forum (several years ago) and partly because I thought it might be smarter to maintain my appeal by choosing one of highly competitive fields. But I ended up choosing pathology anyway because I really loved it, and now I'm glad that I did. There are still ways to maintain your marketability within pathology, and great jobs are there to be had if you are among the most competitive applicants.
That having been said, there are also a lot of crappy jobs to be had if you are not among the most marketable applicants, and the abundance of these type of people certainly makes it much easier for clinical groups, hospitals, pathology corporations, etc. to take advantage us.
So I can't blame raider et al. from being frustrated by this situation and trying to promote an upheaval in the path community, but it's a double edged sword - you don't want to scare away the top talent in the process.
Therefore, I think we should:
-Encourage talented med student with a true interest in pathology to enter the field by reminding them that there are great jobs for the top applicants
-Discourage less talented med students without a true interest in pathology from entering the field by reminding them that they will probably be frustrated by the job market
-Encourage programs to cut back on residency spots.....not really sure how to do this though
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Are these posts linked below from real world attending pathologists meaningless?
Why don't you actually make the effort to read them and get back to us?
Here are current posts from attendings on a pathology listserv:
http://www.mailman.srv.ualberta.ca/pipermail/patho-l/2009-November/033459.html
http://www.mailman.srv.ualberta.ca/pipermail/patho-l/2009-November/033487.html
http://www.mailman.srv.ualberta.ca/pipermail/patho-l/2009-November/033491.html
http://www.mailman.srv.ualberta.ca/pipermail/patho-l/2009-November/033443.html
http://www.mailman.srv.ualberta.ca/pipermail/patho-l/2009-November/033445.html
http://www.mailman.srv.ualberta.ca/pipermail/patho-l/2009-November/033448.html
Note that there is direct talk about the oversupply of pathologists, pathology groups losing half their volume, $80K per year full-time pathology jobs, etc.
P.S. I have voiced my opinion at national meetings and will continue the effort as I think there are some who are finally awakening to the extent of the problem.
Copied from elsewhere on the net ( a bit old but still very relevant):
Let's say that the US population is about 270,000,000 (latest census estimate). If there are roughly 6,000 surgical specimens per 100,000 population per year then there are 16,200,000 surgical specimens examined in the US per year. A Pathologist working full-time doing only Surgical Pathology would average about 4,000 specimans/yr. Therefore the entire Surgical Pathology load of the US could be done by 4050 pathologists.
I'm going to guess that the US Cytopathology load could be done by 2,000 pathologists, Autopsy by 1,000 and Clinical Pathology by 1,000. There is a need for a minimum of 8,050 pathologists (an educated guess). HOWEVER THERE ARE CURRENTLY ABOUT 14,000 PATHOLOGISTS IN THE USA, AN OVERSUPPLY OF 73%. If every Pathology training program were shut down today this oversupply would last at least 10 years.
Let's say that the US population is about 270,000,000 (latest census estimate). If there are roughly 6,000 surgical specimens per 100,000 population per year then there are 16,200,000 surgical specimens examined in the US per year. A Pathologist working full-time doing only Surgical Pathology would average about 4,000 specimans/yr. Therefore the entire Surgical Pathology load of the US could be done by 4050 pathologists.
I'm going to guess that the US Cytopathology load could be done by 2,000 pathologists, Autopsy by 1,000 and Clinical Pathology by 1,000. There is a need for a minimum of 8,050 pathologists (an educated guess). HOWEVER THERE ARE CURRENTLY ABOUT 14,000 PATHOLOGISTS IN THE USA, AN OVERSUPPLY OF 73%. If every Pathology training program were shut down today this oversupply would last at least 10 years.
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Really- if all you want to post is this stuff- we need to know about your job- are you a slave right now- in some Urologist's basement doing 1000 cases per day for a nickel a piece. Please excuse me if you have already posted your current situation- all I could find was a post about you making 1.2 million......
If anyone considers not doing path because of these posts just remember you have no idea who these people are.
I could have done any specialty and I have not regretted doing path. I found several good jobs just last year. I have several clinicians in my family and the discussions over the holidays only reinforced my decision. What we do matters and for the most part is enjoyable. I make more money then I ever thought going into med school and I like my job.
One reason for an over supply of pathologists is pathologists do not need to retire- the work can be done into one late years. This is proof we have enjoyable work that is pretty easy to continue to do. We can be angry about this but we may find ourselves doing the same thing one day.
SO LIGHTEN UP FRANCIS.......
If anyone considers not doing path because of these posts just remember you have no idea who these people are.
I could have done any specialty and I have not regretted doing path. I found several good jobs just last year. I have several clinicians in my family and the discussions over the holidays only reinforced my decision. What we do matters and for the most part is enjoyable. I make more money then I ever thought going into med school and I like my job.
One reason for an over supply of pathologists is pathologists do not need to retire- the work can be done into one late years. This is proof we have enjoyable work that is pretty easy to continue to do. We can be angry about this but we may find ourselves doing the same thing one day.
SO LIGHTEN UP FRANCIS.......
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I think they are helpful. It is important to walk into the future with "eyes wide open". I think people going into pathology should know the specialty is being splintered by outside entities trying to skim the cream.
Med schools should do more to inform students about the hours and compensation of different specialties instead of just encouraging people to do what they love. That is too naive approach to life. Anesthesia is just as long as emergency medicine with a similar schedule but the starting salary in anesthesia is 2x as much.
The time investment into getting an MD and doing residency is too great to only letting what you love determine what you do. You can love more than one thing. And some people may be willing to do something they can tolerate if it makes them 3x as much money because they are able to provide a different lifestyle for their spouse and children.
Med schools should do more to inform students about the hours and compensation of different specialties instead of just encouraging people to do what they love. That is too naive approach to life. Anesthesia is just as long as emergency medicine with a similar schedule but the starting salary in anesthesia is 2x as much.
The time investment into getting an MD and doing residency is too great to only letting what you love determine what you do. You can love more than one thing. And some people may be willing to do something they can tolerate if it makes them 3x as much money because they are able to provide a different lifestyle for their spouse and children.
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And yet you frown on those going into private practice rather than academics?
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You raise a good point, but I believe that acadmics in mid-career do just as well as most private practice pathologists when you add in all the benies.
Plus alpha-type academics make way greater bank than any private practice person can make.
Plus I love the whole hierarchy of academia with medstudents, residents, fellows, jr faculty, and senior faculty and the intellectual stimulation of being at a university due to the presence of basic scientist and translational researchers.
But still I believe in full disclosure and believe that med schools should do all the can to let their students know what they are walking into.
FOr the most part you only get one shot at residency, and people should know that a three year peds residency will start you at 100K a year while a four year anesthesia residency well start you at at least 400k a year.
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The problem with this is that things change and people in med school making a decision about their future that is four or more years to employment. A lot can change in that time- in fact the anesthesia is a great example- when I was in med school people said it was going to be taken over by NAs and an MD would have trouble finding a job. So fewer people went into it and guess what - people in my class that did had fat signing bonuses. In the end you should consider this stuff but you better really like what you do or you will be disappointed if the money or location do not go your way.
I am beginning to believe that path has a lot of people who do not want to work hard and expect the perfect job with great money. I don't think you see as much on other forums cause they do not complain as much.....
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IMHO, I wouldn't take any post by expcm too seriously. Said poster gets on nearly every forum and puts up very controversial topics, examples include: list of terminated residents, to controversial posts on the Caribbean and even more controversial posts on general forum and primary care medicine (PCM) forums. I wonder what the purpose of sparking such controversial issues is, especially when one does not make any comments and just lists articles/websites/few words. IMHO, I highly doubt the individual is a practicing physician, because no physician in their right mind has all the time in the world to be posting on the forum as frequently and controversially as he does...
Their threads are meaningless? Dude... those are attendings who have real life experience and are willing to share it with n00bs like you.
Go back to Ross.
Maybe just one stickied thread, with a title like "Job market observations"? No one is saying this topic is not worth discussing, but of the most recent 10 threads, six are about this. I come to this forum to read about a variety of issues facing pathology, not one.
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HAHA
Since you ended up going to a Carribean medical school it is probably safe to assume that you are not the sharpest tool in the shed.
So here is a basic calculation for you:
My rate of posting here at <700 posts in almost 4 years is much less than your rate of >500 posts in about 1 year.
Do you think pathologists are so busy all day and all night that a pathologist would have no time to post?
How does a med student like you have so much time to post that frequently?
I sure didn't waste that kind of time as a med student - I studied a lot and got into AOA (you have to be in the top 1/6 of the class to be eligible: see http://www.alphaomegaalpha.org/Chapters/AlphaTexas/HistoryConstitution.htm) and had excellent scores on all steps of the USMLE. Now as a practicing physician I do some CME on my own time and post information and advice here that I did not know when I was a med student.
Here is my advice for you:
Spend more time studying and less time on SDN.
P.S. As far as controversial topics it appears anything about the Carribean is controversial to you as I sense you are quite defensive about not making the cut for admission at an LCME accredited school http://www.lcme.org/directry.htm
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Personally, I do not mind all the job market threads. Getting a job is the ultimate goal of doing residency. In other words, its why we are all here. Another thing that I have noticed recently is that since the job market threads are taking over there are more people coming out with "positive" or at least "non-doomsday" opinions which is helpful. When the negative opinions weren't overrunning the board, the not-so-negative opinions didn't feel compelled to post their experiences. So all in all, I think that the current run of job market posts has brought out more opinions and I think they have actually been a little bit encouraging (but only a little bit).
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What I meant to say is that when you post the same stuff over and over and over it does nothing to solve the problem. Take it to the CAP. Posting on here does absolutely nothing other than raising the issue (which we already know) and scaring medical students away from the field (which also does nothing because every program will always find someone to fill spots).
