OMM for the DO vs Chiropractic medicine

mletter · Oct 26, 2006

Hello,
I was hoping someone could let me know the basics on the differences between the OMM techniques the DO practices and the manipulation techniques the chiropractor practices are. Thanks so much!

Taus · Oct 26, 2006

Here is a link to a response to this identical question that I posed before I started DO school 2 years ago. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=2345759&postcount=15

Just warning you that this question usually starts a huge debate on here (not your fault though)....but sit back and relax b/c its usually pretty funny w/ a few good, informative posts mixed in somewhere

mletter · Oct 26, 2006

Taus said:
Here is a link to a response to this identical question that I posed before I started DO school 2 years ago. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=2345759&postcount=15

Just warning you that this question usually starts a huge debate on here (not your fault though)....but sit back and relax b/c its usually pretty funny w/ a few good, informative posts mixed in somewhere

So, the techniques differ in how the range of motion is manipulated. The chiropractic methods may move the joints past the normal range of motion and the DO will generally try to stay away from doing this?

Taus · Oct 27, 2006

I personally don't know anything about chiropractic manipulation.....and that post was about the only non-inflammatory one that I could find in the previous thread that I made.

It'sElectric · Oct 27, 2006

mletter said:
Hello,
I was hoping someone could let me know the basics on the differences between the OMM techniques the DO practices and the manipulation techniques the chiropractor practices are. Thanks so much!

I think, in order for this question to be properly addressed, needs to be answered by someone who has been trained in both. Hence, the reason you haven't received too many replies. They don't waste class time comparing and contrasting DO and chiropractic techniques.

I know there are some chiropractors who went onto attend DO schools, just not sure if any frequent SDN.

I will tell you that DOs call them treatments....not therapy.

I honestly can't tell you the differences (I'm only a 1st year, and I was never a chiropractor), but I would have to assume that different approaches are taken in regards to diagnosis, further treatment, etc. DOs are clinicians, chiropractors are not. That simple difference should lead to different treatment modalities. But like I said, I'm just speculating.

laboholic · Oct 27, 2006

mletter said:
So, the techniques differ in how the range of motion is manipulated. The chiropractic methods may move the joints past the normal range of motion and the DO will generally try to stay away from doing this?

I dont see any difference between DO HVLA and DC HVLA. In order to do the technique you have to go past the "restrictive/physiological barrier". There are no if, and or buts about it.

I am only a first year, but I would say that the difference between DC and DO manipulation is the variety of manipulative tools that are used. DOs use counterstrain, muscle energy, cranial, and other "direct" and "indirect" techniques. We also have a broader scope in the sense that we can treat the entire body, not just the spine.

homeboy · Oct 27, 2006

The difference? Depends on the DO, but strictly OMT DOs are no different than glorified chiropractors (with the ability to rx meds).

Unless a DO does solely OMT, it's no where near worth the time and effort to schedule, treat and bill for an OMT visit versus, say, a strep throat visit. You'd have to spend 35 minutes and give a full body--which is why the strictly-OMT DOs give so many full bodies.

People with recurrent pain problems are much better off to see physical therapists and/or chiropractors than an internist or FP that does some manipulation.

the1doc · Oct 27, 2006

The only difference is that chiropractors are usually a lot better at manipulation than most DOs are. And chiropractors are taught most of the stuff about the "whole body" that DOs are - including different modalities and such. To say that chiropractors are only taught about the spine is nonsense.

The other difference that comes to mind is that chiropractors worship D.D. Palmer, while we worship A.T. Still.

Praises to A.T. Still.

Jamers · Oct 27, 2006

mletter said:
Hello,
I was hoping someone could let me know the basics on the differences between the OMM techniques the DO practices and the manipulation techniques the chiropractor practices are. Thanks so much!

Direct quote from my chiropractor back at home when I asked him the difference, "You guys are more touchy, feely. You always want to use soft techniques. Me, on the other hand, I like the snap. You can tell me all day that one leg is shorter than the other, ****, just stimulate some mucles and, POOF, the leg is no longer shorter. No offense, but who gives a ****? So, yeah, we snap more..."

As a side note: he was, by far, the coolest, allbeit, worst, chiropractor on this planet. He was the type of guy you could, and I often did, go to the bar with haha. So, take his answer with a grain of salt.

emeddo · Oct 27, 2006

I would have to disagree with the statement that chiropractors are a lot better at manipulation than DOs are, that is way too subjective of a statement, might want to be carefull or have some kind of definitive, objective data to back it up. I suppose you could also say MDs are a lot better at perscribing drugs than DOs as well since that is all they do (and manipulation is all chiropractors do). Suddenly DOs are now just the semblance of mediocraty in medicine.

FutureNavyDOc · Oct 27, 2006

mbHopper said:
I would have to disagree with the statement that chiropractors are a lot better at manipulation than DOs are, that is way too subjective of a statement, might want to be carefull or have some kind of definitive, objective data to back it up. I suppose you could also say MDs are a lot better at perscribing drugs than DOs as well since that is all they do (and manipulation is all chiropractors do). Suddenly DOs are now just the semblance of mediocraty in medicine.

Chiropractors can only do manipulation. DO's practice many areas of medicine and can do manipulation if they choose to do so.

This is like comparing the skills of a general surgeon to a cardiovascular surgeon in terms of performing a heart transplant. Both are capable of performing it, but one does it on a daily basis vs one does it once in a while.

So yes, I believe it is fair to say that Chiropractor's are better at manipulation than DO's.

This does not fit for prescriptions since most DO's prescribe just as much as MD's.

One thing about Chiropractor's I have noticed is that since they cannot prescribe drugs, do surgery, or give vaccinations, they tend to be opposed to them.

For instance, Northwestern Chiropractic School in Minneapolis teaches the following:
1. Vaccinations are of no value and only increase the odds of autism. (this obviously has nothing to do with the fact that they can't give them)
2. Prescription drugs are worthless in most situations, especially Otitis Media since "over 90% of all ear infections are not infections at all, but rather irritations." (again this obviously has nothing to do with the fact that they can't prescribe them)

Interestingly enough, Ford dealerships across the country are believe that driving Chevy's is a bad idea.

DragonWell · Oct 27, 2006

laboholic said:
I dont see any difference between DO HVLA and DC HVLA. In order to do the technique you have to go past the "restrictive/physiological barrier". There are no if, and or buts about it.

I am only a first year, but I would say that the difference between DC and DO manipulation is the variety of manipulative tools that are used. DOs use counterstrain, muscle energy, cranial, and other "direct" and "indirect" techniques. We also have a broader scope in the sense that we can treat the entire body, not just the spine.

I would just like to underline in the above post that one of the differences I see is that DOs tend to incorporate more soft tissue techniques. I have never seen a "straight" Chiro use soft tissue - if they want a muscle to relax, they usually employ a massage therapist or two to soften people up before a HVLA manipulation. IMHO, the incorporation of techniques like muscle energy and counterstrain enables us to perform more gentle corrections at times.

I have also been told that OMM devotes considerably more attention to sacral dysfunction than most chiros. Can't say if that's true or not.

BTW, all the my Kung-Fung is better than your Kung-Fung stuff makes you look like your ten years old. But flame on...

Taus · Oct 27, 2006

it would be nice if discussions on this topic could for once just be limited to the manual tecniques performed by both professions, rather then people comparing the professions as a whole......but who am I kidding...this is SDN...

BackTalk · Oct 27, 2006

FutureNavyDOc said:
Chiropractors can only do manipulation. DO's practice many areas of medicine and can do manipulation if they choose to do so.

This is like comparing the skills of a general surgeon to a cardiovascular surgeon in terms of performing a heart transplant. Both are capable of performing it, but one does it on a daily basis vs one does it once in a while.

So yes, I believe it is fair to say that Chiropractor's are better at manipulation than DO's.

This does not fit for prescriptions since most DO's prescribe just as much as MD's.

One thing about Chiropractor's I have noticed is that since they cannot prescribe drugs, do surgery, or give vaccinations, they tend to be opposed to them.

For instance, Northwestern Chiropractic School in Minneapolis teaches the following:
1. Vaccinations are of no value and only increase the odds of autism. (this obviously has nothing to do with the fact that they can't give them)
2. Prescription drugs are worthless in most situations, especially Otitis Media since "over 90% of all ear infections are not infections at all, but rather irritations." (again this obviously has nothing to do with the fact that they can't prescribe them)

Interestingly enough, Ford dealerships across the country are believe that driving Chevy's is a bad idea.

I find it interesting that Northwestern Chiropractic School would make such statements. Where did you read this at?

FutureNavyDOc · Oct 27, 2006

BackTalk said:
I find it interesting that Northwestern Chiropractic School would make such statements. Where did you read this at?

4 different friends of mine that have gone/are going there. 1 graduated last year, another is in his last year and 2 are in their 2nd year.

The interesting part is only the 2-2nd years know each other, but all told me the same thing.

wayttk · Oct 27, 2006

BackTalk said:
I find it interesting that Northwestern Chiropractic School would make such statements. Where did you read this at?

FutureNavyDOc said:
4 different friends of mine that have gone/are going there. 1 graduated last year, another is in his last year and 2 are in their 2nd year.

The interesting part is only the 2-2nd years know each other, but all told me the same thing.

That is interesting----------Since I spent four years there, I can tell you first hand, Northwestern does not teach according to your assertions.

FutureNavyDOc · Oct 27, 2006

wayttk said:
That is interesting----------Since I spent four years there, I can tell you first hand, Northwestern does not teach according to your assertions.

4 years? It's a 3 year (technically 3 and 1/3) school.

I'm going off of what I've heard firsthand from 4 different sources in 3 classes.

wayttk · Oct 27, 2006

FutureNavyDOc said:
4 years? It's a 3 year (technically 3 and 1/3) school.

I'm going off of what I've heard firsthand from 4 different sources in 3 classes.

"Technically", the DC curriculum at Northwestern consists of five academic years (three and one-third calendar years). Each year consists of three 15-week trimesters (except Trimesters 8 and 9 which are 17 weeks). The base of the curricular studies is composed of courses in the foundational sciences. These courses lay the groundwork for further study in the clinical sciences as well as clinical experiences. A 12-month public clinic internship and preceptorship constitute the last three trimesters. The required curriculum for the doctor of chiropractic degree is composed of a sequence of courses offered in 10 separate 15-week trimesters for a minimum total of 4,225.75 contact hours, exclusive of elective courses of study.

Since my knowledge is first hand, I have a greater level of evidence than your (alledged)second hand heresay. Where did you meet these "friends"?!! :laugh:

You can verify here: http://www.nwhealth.edu/edprogr/chiro/cudescr.html

FutureNavyDOc · Oct 27, 2006

wayttk said:
"Technically", the DC curriculum at Northwestern consists of five academic years (three and one-third calendar years). Each year consists of three 15-week trimesters (except Trimesters 8 and 9 which are 17 weeks). The base of the curricular studies is composed of courses in the foundational sciences. These courses lay the groundwork for further study in the clinical sciences as well as clinical experiences. A 12-month public clinic internship and preceptorship constitute the last three trimesters. The required curriculum for the doctor of chiropractic degree is composed of a sequence of courses offered in 10 separate 15-week trimesters for a minimum total of 4,225.75 contact hours, exclusive of elective courses of study.

Since my knowledge is first hand, I have a greater level of evidence than your (alledged)second hand heresay. Where did you meet these "friends"?!!

You can verify here: http://www.nwhealth.edu/edprogr/chiro/cudescr.html

So in addition to being opposed to immunizations, chiropractors use their own calendar just like the Chinese where 3.33 calendar years is 5 Chiropractic years?

I met 2 of them in college, 1 after college, and a 3rd is the girlfriend of one of my college roommates.
Apparently instead of believing 4 different sources, 3 of which are currently attending Northwestern, I should believe 1 anonymous internet source. Makes sense.

Additionally, a Northwestern Chiro grad gave a presentation at DMU a few months back entitled "The Dangers of Immunization" sponsored by the holistic club.

mletter · Oct 27, 2006

I am so glad to read all the posts. I really appreciate all the info. I was curious about the differences because I am going on interviews starting next week and I read on another forum that the interviewers wanted to know if the applicant knew the difference between the two methods. 😱

the1doc · Oct 27, 2006

mbHopper said:
I would have to disagree with the statement that chiropractors are a lot better at manipulation than DOs are, that is way too subjective of a statement, might want to be carefull or have some kind of definitive, objective data to back it up. I suppose you could also say MDs are a lot better at perscribing drugs than DOs as well since that is all they do (and manipulation is all chiropractors do). Suddenly DOs are now just the semblance of mediocraty in medicine.

I'm guessing that you're trying to be funny.

This is SDN, home of the "subjective comments."

And the "objective data" that you speak of isn't there and it probably won't be there until the NEJM publishes a randomized controlled study on "Chirocpractors vs. DOs." Don't hold your breath.

Chiropractors spend a lot more time learning about and practicing manipulative medicine than most (pay attention to the "most") DOs do. Most DOs (unfortunately even many on OMM faculties) know very little about manipulative medicine.

FutureNavyDOc · Oct 27, 2006

the1doc said:
I'm guessing that you're trying to be funny.

This is SDN, home of the "subjective comments."

And the "objective data" that you speak of isn't there and it probably won't be there until the NEJM publishes a randomized controlled study on "Chirocpractors vs. DOs." Don't hold your breath.

Chiropractors spend a lot more time learning about and practicing manipulative medicine than most (pay attention to the "most") DOs do. Most DOs (unfortunately even many on OMM faculties) know very little about manipulative medicine.

BLASPHEMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To the back OMM lab table for you.

It'sElectric · Oct 27, 2006

Taus said:
it would be nice if discussions on this topic could for once just be limited to the manual tecniques performed by both professions, rather then people comparing the professions as a whole......but who am I kidding...this is SDN...

Yeah, I kind of understand what you're saying, but it's almost impossible not to. The complete training of each individual profession does ultimately affect and constitute the differences between the 2 professions. Training under a medical degree background vs. not does lead to very different techniques that are used. But that's just my opinion - like everything on SDN.

BMW19 · Oct 27, 2006

I practiced chiropractic for 3 years before going to DO school. I am now a second year. I have gotten involved in many a heated debate on this website about this exact question, because people love to chirobash. I will try and break it down very simply and then will answer any Q's you have. But I refuse to get worked up as I have in the past!

Chiropractic vs. Osteopathic

Chiro is good for musculoskeletal complaints, but when the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. In other words chiros treat EVERYTHING with manipulation. DO's have the full practice rights just as an MD does. DO's that do manipulate are usually very good at it, but believe me you would not put your cervical spine in the hands of a DO who has not manipulated a single pt. in 20 years!

Chiros only see 10-15% of the population and are in constant competition with each other, which is why the get such a bad rep. They are always trying to one up each other. DO's can work in a hospital, private practice, clinic, group etc. Chiros are usually a one man show.

A few bad chiros usually give the whole profession a bad name which kind of sucks because I have worked with some great chiros that deal with professional athletes and do a great job.

If you told someone that they had to choose someone to manipulate their spine they would probably choose a chiro despite all the bad press just because they don't know what a DO does!! The DO's gave up manipulation a long time ago as a primary skill (which is unfortunate) and don't market that aspect of osteopathy too well.

If you want to talk about the difference at an interview talk about how a DO has the whole package of being a fully licensed physician who can do anything an MD can do and pretty much everything a chiro can do!! Which is pretty much true.

BMW-

BigErns · Oct 27, 2006

The big difference between a DO and a philosophical DC is their not just limited to their ability to manipulate (Chiropractors "adjust"), but their view of the body. Most DO's view health in a mechanistic fashion, where DC's view it in a vitalistic fashion. Chiro's don't disdain drugs and vaccinations because it's not in their scope of practice..it's because it goes against true chiropractic philosophy. DC's believe the power that created the body, healed the body. They view the body as an ecosystem of 50-100 trillion cells that harmoniously function in an dynamic internal homeostatic that is coordinated through an optimal functioning nervous system. DC's are doctors of the nervous system that is housed in the spine. Name a natural ecosystem (marsh, wetland,ocean, coastline) that human kind has interfered with (that was previously unaffected by society and industry) and has mad a better place. Nature has balance and processes that all require time. DC's opposition of drugs is of the same thought process. There are no drugs that will make you healthier (the may help balance homeostasis, but not increase health). The allopathic paradigm is flawed because it studies sickness and pathology and not wellness. It is not setup to keep people healthy, just treat symptoms and rarely the cause.

As for manipulations, most DC's are more specific with their adjusting where most DO's use broad manipulations. Don't get me wrong, eliminating fixations is beneficial to all joints. DC's are trained and to pinpoint fixations from the very first year of education and are trained with multiple tools to diagnose them. They have many different techniques as well.
I don't think the manipulation is the issue, its the philosophy

DO's don't correct subluxations, DC's correct subluxations.

DragonWell · Oct 27, 2006

BigErns said:
As for manipulations, most DC's are more specific with their adjusting where most DO's use broad manipulations. Don't get me wrong, eliminating fixations is beneficial to all joints. DC's are trained and to pinpoint fixations from the very first year of education and are trained with multiple tools to diagnose them. They have many different techniques as well.
I don't think the manipulation is the issue, its the philosophy

DO's don't correct subluxations, DC's correct subluxations.

Could you give an example/explanation of a more specific technique/manipulation used by DCs? Since both systems ideally localize a dysfunction to a specific joint/vertebrae and movement, I'm just wondering what one could diagnose/treat more specifically than this?

danclear · Oct 28, 2006

BMW19 said:
I practiced chiropractic for 3 years before going to DO school. I am now a second year. I have gotten involved in many a heated debate on this website about this exact question, because people love to chirobash. I will try and break it down very simply and then will answer any Q's you have. But I refuse to get worked up as I have in the past!

Chiropractic vs. Osteopathic

Chiro is good for musculoskeletal complaints, but when the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. In other words chiros treat EVERYTHING with manipulation. DO's have the full practice rights just as an MD does. DO's that do manipulate are usually very good at it, but believe me you would not put your cervical spine in the hands of a DO who has not manipulated a single pt. in 20 years!

Chiros only see 10-15% of the population and are in constant competition with each other, which is why the get such a bad rep. They are always trying to one up each other. DO's can work in a hospital, private practice, clinic, group etc. Chiros are usually a one man show.

A few bad chiros usually give the whole profession a bad name which kind of sucks because I have worked with some great chiros that deal with professional athletes and do a great job.

If you told someone that they had to choose someone to manipulate their spine they would probably choose a chiro despite all the bad press just because they don't know what a DO does!! The DO's gave up manipulation a long time ago as a primary skill (which is unfortunate) and don't market that aspect of osteopathy too well.

If you want to talk about the difference at an interview talk about how a DO has the whole package of being a fully licensed physician who can do anything an MD can do and pretty much everything a chiro can do!! Which is pretty much true.

BMW-

Well-stated. I think this is the best honest answer to the original question...especially for a student about to interview at a DO school.

wayttk · Oct 28, 2006

FutureNavyDOc said:
So in addition to being opposed to immunizations, chiropractors use their own calendar just like the Chinese where 3.33 calendar years is 5 Chiropractic years?

I met 2 of them in college, 1 after college, and a 3rd is the girlfriend of one of my college roommates.
Apparently instead of believing 4 different sources, 3 of which are currently attending Northwestern, I should believe 1 anonymous internet source. Makes sense.

Additionally, a Northwestern Chiro grad gave a presentation at DMU a few months back entitled "The Dangers of Immunization" sponsored by the holistic club.

You have been in school---How long? And don't know the difference between an "academic year" and a a "calender year"? "Academic year" is standard stuff. Your attempted "spin" is amusing.

Your assertions of what "Northwestern teaches" is seriously flawed:
1. Based on unverifiable heresay of unverifiable "friends"(and friends of friends 🙄 )
2. Because a DC(who you claim, alledgedly, graduated from Northwestern) supposedly, gives a talk(to a "holistic club") on the "Dangers of Immunization", fails to prove that this is what "Northwestern teaches". By that logic, shall we also assume that what Andrew Wiel gives a "talk" about, is what Harvard medical school "teaches"?

What is DMU?
Elaborate on the "Holistic club"

PS- my apologies to the OP. But when misinformation is posted- it needs to be corrected.

DragonWell · Oct 28, 2006

wayttk said:
PS- my apologies to the OP. But when misinformation is posted- it needs to be corrected.

I hope you have a lot of time on your hands :laugh:

.

wayttk · Oct 28, 2006

bodymechanic said:
I hope you have a lot of time on your hands .

Yeah- Sometimes it does make one "pause for cause"------- I just do what I can, when I see it------Repetitive myths have a way of eventually manifesting as truth. Without correction, they get perpetuated as "truth", and the facts become lost, and/or ignored, and/or distorted. There are some distortions that are so grotesque, ignoring is not an option.

the1doc · Oct 28, 2006

wayttk said:
Yeah- Sometimes it does make one "pause for cause"------- I just do what I can, when I see it------Repetitive myths have a way of eventually manifesting as truth. Without correction, they get perpetuated as "truth", and the facts become lost, and/or ignored, and/or distorted. There are some distortions that are so grotesque, ignoring is not an option.

well the SDN community....nay....the world appreciates the job you are doing of clarifying what some chiropractic school does or doesn't teach. we can't thank you enough for manifesting the truth unto us.

WestcoastMedicine · Oct 28, 2006

Do chiropractors use visceral techniques? My image of a DO practicing within the osteopathic mindframe would give ABX for a sinus infection as well as doing sinus drainage techniques. A DO would give muscle relaxants, pain meds, and do some MFR, Soft Tissue, Counterstrain for a hypertonic paraspinals. That is what I think of when I think of a practicing DO actively using OMM, I don't think of HVLA, but that is just my anecdotal subjective view that I gained from experiences with my DO family doctor. Of course we learn HVLA and other techniques, but if we (DOs) would just do a few visceral/ counterstrain techniques when people come in with aches and pains, congestion, etc... to supplement pharmacologic modalities, I think it would have amazingly positive results for how the profession is viewed. I just wish more primary care docs would practice like this instead of brushing off omm, you don't have time? BULL****, how long does it take to do promote sinus drainage, 2 minutes? and counterstrain, 1-2 minutes. OK, off my soapbox now.

I personally have never seen a chiropractor so have no first hand experience with how to compare the two professions.

DragonWell · Oct 28, 2006

the1doc said:
well the SDN community....nay....the world appreciates the job you are doing of clarifying what some chiropractic school does or doesn't teach. we can't thank you enough for manifesting the truth unto us.

At least wayttk is trying to bring some accuracy to the community, rather than just ignoring those preaching the same old bull***t. Really these posts about how a "friend" at "such and such DO school" said the faculty there teach that "cranial cures everything" are pretty worthless. I admire wayttk's effort to bring truth to at least one thread on SDN and I'd join him if I wasn't such a cynical old bastard...

OK, I'm just lazy.

the1doc · Oct 28, 2006

bodymechanic said:
At least wayttk is trying to bring some accuracy to the community, rather than just ignoring those preaching the same old bull***t. Really these posts about how a "friend" at "such and such DO school" said the faculty there teach that "cranial cures everything" are pretty worthless. I admire wayttk's effort to bring truth to at least one thread on SDN and I'd join him if I wasn't such a cynical old bastard...

OK, I'm just lazy.

like i said earlier, until the NEJM publishes a randomized controlled study proving that the majority of chiros do this while the majority of DOs do that....it's just all speculation anyway. and until the dean of northwestern chiro or whatever school we're talking about logs onto SDN and says, "my school's policy is X, and I can prove that I am really the dean of the school because X," it will still be speculation. so to get onto SDN and preach about "bringing the truth to us" is just silliness, really.

DragonWell · Oct 28, 2006

the1doc said:
like i said earlier, until the NEJM publishes a randomized controlled study proving that the majority of chiros do this while the majority of DOs do that....it's just all speculation anyway. and until the dean of northwestern chiro or whatever school we're talking about logs onto SDN and says, "my school's policy is X, and I can prove that I am really the dean of the school because X," it will still be speculation. so to get onto SDN and preach about "bringing the truth to us" is just silliness, really.

I don't see the point of his post to be bringing some gospel truth to us - as I interpret it, he's mostly calling bull***t on the sources used to back up these assertions about what is taught in this DC school, and he's right. Just me, but I tend to value the opinions of someone with 4 years of first hand experience over someone whose primary sources are "friends" and who seems to have an a pretty giant axe to grind about all things OMM related. Just me, though :laugh:

.

the1doc · Oct 28, 2006

bodymechanic said:
I don't see the point of his post to be bringing some gospel truth to us - as I interpret it, he's mostly calling bull***t on the sources used to back up these assertions about what is taught in this DC school, and he's right. Just me, but I tend to value the opinions of someone with 4 years of first hand experience over someone whose primary sources are "friends" and who seems to have an a pretty giant axe to grind about all things OMM related. Just me, though .

Really? And how did you interpret this?

Repetitive myths have a way of eventually manifesting as truth. Without correction, they get perpetuated as "truth", and the facts become lost, and/or ignored, and/or distorted

Enter the crusader of truth.

This is SDN - the place where anybody can pretend to be anybody, where anybody can pretend to know anything, where anybody can pretend to have experience in anything. It's all speculation; it's all hearsay. If you want to "value" the opinions of someone who might actually be telling the truth, you're still running the risk of that truth being clouded by so much subjectivity that it isn't even an accurate reflection of reality.

By the way, I'm a neurosurgeon, so I know more than all of you. :laugh:

BigErns · Oct 28, 2006

bodymechanic said:
Could you give an example/explanation of a more specific technique/manipulation used by DCs? Since both systems ideally localize a dysfunction to a specific joint/vertebrae and movement, I'm just wondering what one could diagnose/treat more specifically than this?

Bodymechanic,
As you are probably aware, there are many different chiropractic techniques that use various forms of diagnostic means to inspect, detect and correct a subluxation. Many utilize a surface EMG scan called MyoVision or the Insight station. Gonstead technician utilize a G0-scope. Many upper cervical DC utilize an thermography. CBP utilizes X-rays to address postural issues, NUCCA utilizes specific X-ray analysis for addressing their line of correction down to cm for adjusting atlas only. Activator methods which is performed with a spring loaded instrument is another means.

You can utilize one or many of these as well as techniques such as muscle testing, motion palpation, and/or leg checks.

Chiro's are trained to treat a specific segment as opposed to segmental area.
I hope that may help. Again, I don't think the manipulation is the issue, I believe it is the difference of paradigms in treating and keeping patients healthy. A lot of DO's have been too quick to quick to rely on the "reliable information" :laugh:

fed to them from big pharma than rely on the amazing powers of the human body to heal and restore itself from thier manipulations.

scpod · Oct 28, 2006

the1doc said:
like i said earlier, until the NEJM publishes a randomized controlled study proving that the majority of chiros do this while the majority of DOs do that....it's just all speculation anyway...

You should know by now that there's not a single study ever written that "proves" anything. You can, however, "disprove" a thing or two in a study.

While I believe that EBM is an important part of a physician's arsenal, I really think it's silly that some people's arguments constantly are filled with, "I won't believe it until I read it in a journal." EBM is not just using things that are written in a journal. It is taking all of the written literature that you can find, along with practical experience that you have gained, and even adding a little anecdotal evidence and intuition from time to time to determine the best course for your patient. If the only thing you use to diagnose and treat your patient is the NEJM, then you've completely removed the "art" from medicine.

The fact is that answers aren't always found in journals. Journals are, and should be, a part of the decision making process. But the physician's greatest asset is his or her critical thinking skills. Sometimes, the best thing to do is follow your instinct.

Dr JPH · Oct 28, 2006

the1doc said:
Most DOs (unfortunately even many on OMM faculties) know very little about manipulative medicine.

Regretably I do agree with you. 🙁 Except for the "many" word...might be a bit of a strength IMO.

The core difference that needs to be highlighted is that Chiropractic manipulation focuses on spinal manipulation, while Osteopathic manipulation doesnt necessarily have a focus on a specific body area or region.

Now...the differences between the scope of practice of a Chiropractor and that of an Osteopathic Physician are huge. You are talking about a licensed manual medicine practitioner vs. a licensed physician.

the1doc · Oct 28, 2006

scpod said:
You should know by now that there's not a single study ever written that "proves" anything. You can, however, "disprove" a thing or two in a study.

While I believe that EBM is an important part of a physician's arsenal, I really think it's silly that some people's arguments constantly are filled with, "I won't believe it until I read it in a journal." EBM is not just using things that are written in a journal. It is taking all of the written literature that you can find, along with practical experience that you have gained, and even adding a little anecdotal evidence and intuition from time to time to determine the best course for your patient. If the only thing you use to diagnose and treat your patient is the NEJM, then you've completely removed the "art" from medicine.

The fact is that answers aren't always found in journals. Journals are, and should be, a part of the decision making process. But the physician's greatest asset is his or her critical thinking skills. Sometimes, the best thing to do is follow your instinct.

yes, of course, just like you, i learned as an undergrad that "science can never prove, it can only disprove." but in real medicine, the term "prove" is used frequently as a shortcut for saying, "this has not been disproven" or "this has been supported." i can't believe i actually just took the time to explain that to you. but next time you hear a doc say "proving" or "proven," i dare you to give your little undergrad speech.

you're focusing on a part of what i said, and ignoring the rest. the point that i've made, over and over again, is that everything on this board is hearsay and speculation, because we don't really know who anyone is or if anyone is really telling the truth. who you choose to trust and believe is up to you, but to argue that one person's hearsay is less reliable than another person's hearsay is ridiculous - until you have an objective source (such as NEJM) to back your argument up. you never heard me say, "all the answers are found in journals," so your comments are not applicable.

Dr JPH · Oct 28, 2006

LHUEMT911 said:
Do chiropractors use visceral techniques? My image of a DO practicing within the osteopathic mindframe would give ABX for a sinus infection as well as doing sinus drainage techniques. A DO would give muscle relaxants, pain meds, and do some MFR, Soft Tissue, Counterstrain for a hypertonic paraspinals. That is what I think of when I think of a practicing DO actively using OMM, I don't think of HVLA, but that is just my anecdotal subjective view that I gained from experiences with my DO family doctor. Of course we learn HVLA and other techniques, but if we (DOs) would just do a few visceral/ counterstrain techniques when people come in with aches and pains, congestion, etc... to supplement pharmacologic modalities, I think it would have amazingly positive results for how the profession is viewed. I just wish more primary care docs would practice like this instead of brushing off omm, you don't have time? BULL****, how long does it take to do promote sinus drainage, 2 minutes? and counterstrain, 1-2 minutes. OK, off my soapbox now.

I agree with a good portion of what you say here. Well said.

the1doc · Oct 28, 2006

JPHazelton said:
Regretably I do agree with you. 🙁 Except for the "many" word...might be a bit of a strength IMO.

The core difference that needs to be highlighted is that Chiropractic manipulation focuses on spinal manipulation, while Osteopathic manipulation doesnt necessarily have a focus on a specific body area or region.

Now...the differences between the scope of practice of a Chiropractor and that of an Osteopathic Physician are huge. You are talking about a licensed manual medicine practitioner vs. a licensed physician.

You're right, JPH. Most OMM faculty (at least in my experience) are very proficient at OMM. Unfortunately, a few do not know what they are doing.

Dr JPH · Oct 28, 2006

the1doc said:
You're right, JPH. Most OMM faculty (at least in my experience) are very proficient at OMM. Unfortunately, a few do not know what they are doing.

A few docs in every specialty sometimes seem to know little about what they are doing! 😀

Better to learn from those we have the greatest confidence in.

the1doc · Oct 28, 2006

JPHazelton said:
A few docs in every specialty sometimes seem to know little about what they are doing! 😀

Better to learn from those we have the greatest confidence in.

I agree 100%.

As far as OMM goes, it's best to stay away from faculty who say things like, "Uhhh....I don't really do cervical....you should ask Dr. so and so...."

BMW19 · Oct 29, 2006

BigErns,

The "subluxation" is in my opinion one of the major problems with chiro. I never used that word when I practiced chiro. Every DC interprets it differently and the medical community laughs at it. It can not be defined on x-ray, nerve tests or through palpation with consistency. And there is NO evidence that the nerves are being compressed when a vertebrae is misaligned unless the patient has radicular symptoms!! Scaring patients by saying that a subluxation is the silent killer is bad medicine. Smoking is the silent killer!! I could not use this propaganda with a straight face in the office despite the thousand dollar machines that the big-wig chiros put out for there own profit. The term should be changed to Joint dysfunction or something of that nature. This just my opinion from someone that was in the trenches. If DO's actually started using manipulation they could put chiro out of business. But that will never happen because most osteopaths want nothing to do with it. Therefore, there will always be a place for chiros

BMW-

BigErns said:
Bodymechanic,
As you are probably aware, there are many different chiropractic techniques that use various forms of diagnostic means to inspect, detect and correct a subluxation. Many utilize a surface EMG scan called MyoVision or the Insight station. Gonstead technician utilize a G0-scope. Many upper cervical DC utilize an thermography. CBP utilizes X-rays to address postural issues, NUCCA utilizes specific X-ray analysis for addressing their line of correction down to cm for adjusting atlas only. Activator methods which is performed with a spring loaded instrument is another means.

You can utilize one or many of these as well as techniques such as muscle testing, motion palpation, and/or leg checks.

Chiro's are trained to treat a specific segment as opposed to segmental area.
I hope that may help. Again, I don't think the manipulation is the issue, I believe it is the difference of paradigms in treating and keeping patients healthy. A lot of DO's have been too quick to quick to rely on the "reliable information" fed to them from big pharma than rely on the amazing powers of the human body to heal and restore itself from thier manipulations.

DragonWell · Oct 29, 2006

BigErns said:
As for manipulations, most DC's are more specific with their adjusting where most DO's use broad manipulations.

Just curious if BMW or any of the OMM fellows would agree this is the case?

BigErns said:
DO's don't correct subluxations, DC's correct subluxations.

How does a subluxation differ from the type of joint diagnosis we do - ie L5 -RR,SL ,etc.?

And finally, why is this so much more interesting than studying for my biochem test tomorrow...?

Dr JPH · Oct 29, 2006

bodymechanic said:
Just curious if BMW or any of the OMM fellows would agree this is the case?

When it comes to treating an individual segment DOs are just as focused on a local region than any chiropractor.

When it comes to the training, DOs are taught techniques that can be used on multiple body regions and are not taught according to the "spinal lesion" model.

wayttk · Oct 29, 2006

..."How does a subluxation differ from the type of joint diagnosis we do - ie L5 -RR,SL ,etc.?"

IMO- It doesn't. Subluxation=joint dysfunction=manipulatable lesion- or what ever the name da jour. But then, being a Northwestern grad- What do I know?......apparently "navydoc" (via "friends")knows more than I, as to what "Northwestern teaches"!! :laugh:

"SUBLUXATION" and it's definition depends on the source.........
1. The DC straights(a small minority of the profession) tend to think of it as a "chiro specific" entity.
2. The chiro-bashers like to use the word as a professional definition. IE- if it ain't a "subluxation" it ain't chiropractic........
3. The majority(of which I am) consider it interchangable with: joint dysfuntion, manipulable lesion etc.

Personally- I am constantly amused at how the "s-word" is used, depending on the political platform of the "user".

homeboy · Oct 29, 2006

This is beside the point, but I find it interesting that chiropractors insist on being called "doctor." Yes, technically it is a 'doctorate' degree, being 4 yrs of post-grad study, but I love how you drive past all these chiro places and on the sign it reads, "Dr. Smith" or "Dr. Johnson".

pguin · Oct 30, 2006

homeboy said:
This is beside the point, but I find it interesting that chiropractors insist on being called "doctor." Yes, technically it is a 'doctorate' degree, being 4 yrs of post-grad study, but I love how you drive past all these chiro places and on the sign it reads, "Dr. Smith" or "Dr. Johnson".

I'm guessing the reason for this is that THEY ARE DOCTORS!! Are they supposed to call themselves Mr/Mrs? You may disagree with chiropractic but that doesn't mean they didn't put the time in required to earn a doctoral degree. Do you have a problem with vets, dentists, optometrists, PHD's and psychologists placing Dr in front of their name? Oh and obiously DO's shouldn't be called doctor either because they're not even real MD's! Get off the high horse for a second.

OMM for the DO vs Chiropractic medicine

It's all in the reflexes

.

It's all in the reflexes

.

Full Member

Full Member

I'm super cereal.

Member

Sexy Man

OMS

Senior Member

Full Member

.

Membership Revoked

Senior Member

Member

Senior Member

Member

Senior Member

It's all in the reflexes

Member

Senior Member

Full Member

Senior Member

New Member

Full Member

Junior Member

Member

Full Member

Member

Member

Senior Member

Full Member

Member

Full Member

Member

New Member

Full Member

Membership Revoked

Member

Membership Revoked

Member

Membership Revoked

Member

Senior Member

Full Member

Membership Revoked

Member

I'm super cereal.

Junior Member

Similar threads