D.O. School or Caribbean

This has been discussed ad nauseam on SDN. And by "discussed" I mean flame wars.

Anyway, if I was playing the odds, I would go the DO route. If you look at the placements of Caribbean grads into ortho, there are very few. And those that do match into ortho are phenomenal applicants (off-the-chart board scores, kick ass references and clinical performance, etc.).

DOs have their own residency programs for ortho. Only DOs can obtain these residencies (i.e., no competition from the MDs). More DOs match into ortho then Caribbean grads...by far.

Also, allopathic ortho is easily one of the most competitive specialties. US MD students fight for these positions. Coming from the Caribbean, you've definitely got odds against you. And that's an understatement.

P.S. Just in case you might be thinking that this is a biased opinion, I'll tell you a few things:
(1) My best friend is in the Caribbean right now and I have defended the Caribbean route on the pre-osteopathic boards
(2) Check the residency match lists if you want to see just how many more DOs match into ortho than Caribbean grads
(3) For several reasons, my preference is allopathic

Edit:

Just to give you an idea:

SGU had 3 matches and Ross had 1 match in 2004 (some excellent programs, but very few considering the class size)

KCOM alone had 12 ortho matches in 2003

If you want to get into an ortho program, you have a higher probability of getting into a program going the DO route.

Jug27 said:

Hey guys and gals,

I'm currently a junior in college and starting my research process of med schools, etc. I have done my research on osteopathic medicine and i believe the tenants are great. I don't believe my grades are very competitive for MD school but they would be for DO school. Believe me, i'm not one of those that is willing to go to DO school cuz i didnt get into MD school. I strongly believe in the DO philosophy. From others in the med school process, i came across med schools in the caribbean. I'm not sure what i want to do in medicine, but i'm leaning towards orthopedics/sports medicine. Taking that into consideration...is it better to go to DO school or the caribbean?? What are the pros and cons to each? Thanks for all your input!!

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It would be very benificial to have the palpatory diagnosis and treatment knowledge and expertise of osteopathic manipulative medicine if you are interested in sports medicine. You will find it very common for pro and college sports teams to have DO's as physicians for this very reason.

It eliminates the need for a team physical therapist or chiropractor.

You will be at a great disadvantage for these opportunities if you go outside of the U.S.

Jug27 said:

Hmmm...what are my chances of doing an allopathic residency in orthopedics or sports medicine coming from a DO school?

Phil Antropist...i'm new to SDN, sorry for bringing up old discussions, i'm just trying to get input from many sources. THanks!

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Jug, welcome to SDN.

Click the "search" function, click "advanced search," type "DO Caribbean" in the space, highlight "titles only," and highlight "pre-osteopathic," then run the search.

You will find more information than you will ever need on this topic.

Also, check out the orthopedic forum.

I've never liked the idea of using match lists to judge the quality and limitations of schools. You have no idea if someone matched to what they wanted to match and those who were forced to settle. You also have no idea who scored poorly on the boards due to lack of effort rather than poor education.

I don't think match lists really tell you anything.

Jug27 said:

Hmmm...what are my chances of doing an allopathic residency in orthopedics or sports medicine coming from a DO school?

Phil Antropist...i'm new to SDN, sorry for bringing up old discussions, i'm just trying to get input from many sources. THanks!

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Keep in mind that getting into residency is more of a favoritism thing than a qualifications thing.

As long as you do well on your boards, and spend time rotating at and getting to know the residents at the place you are interested in, there should be no problem.

You will be at a slight disadvantage over a U.S. M.D. applicant, but this can be rectified by taking the USMLE and performing well on it. You will have a much better advantage than a foreign medical graduate, however.

Look for residencies that already have DO's in them for your best bet. Keep in mind that competition is very tough for orthopedics, but you will have the opportunity to apply to DO residencies as well.

As a foreign medical graduate, not only would you be disadvantaged from an applicant's perspective, but you would not be able to apply to the DO residencies, limiting your options.

Jug27 said:

Hey guys and gals,

I'm currently a junior in college and starting my research process of med schools, etc. I have done my research on osteopathic medicine and i believe the tenants are great. I don't believe my grades are very competitive for MD school but they would be for DO school. Believe me, i'm not one of those that is willing to go to DO school cuz i didnt get into MD school. I strongly believe in the DO philosophy. From others in the med school process, i came across med schools in the caribbean. I'm not sure what i want to do in medicine, but i'm leaning towards orthopedics/sports medicine. Taking that into consideration...is it better to go to DO school or the caribbean?? What are the pros and cons to each? Thanks for all your input!!

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DO schools duh! Listen to what these people are saying. And this is coming from someone who is will be a student at a MD school, so it's not like i am biased toward DOs. Apply to DO schools and a few MD schools, you never know. I wouldn't even consider the carribean if I were you.

If you go to the carribean you are going to have to shell out a ton more money, will be looked down upon by peers, and will be 1000s of miles away from family. Of course, I am from Michigan.. a pro-DO state. I have always went to a DO and was not aware that some people are weird about DOs until I began the application process.

Jug27 said:

Hmmm...what are my chances of doing an allopathic residency in orthopedics or sports medicine coming from a DO school?

Phil Antropist...i'm new to SDN, sorry for bringing up old discussions, i'm just trying to get input from many sources. THanks!

Click to expand...

Oh I'm not mad at you or anything like that, but these threads do devolve. Everyone gets so defensive, insults are made, and you see the worst sides of people. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but there's a "Sticky" thread on the top of the pre-osteopathic forum that's basically stuck there to remind everyone to not get in MD vs. DO flame wars. Sadly it still happens more frequently than you might think. I realize that your post didn't have anything inflammatory, but even when MD/DO threads are created with good intentions, it's not uncommon for the threads to get off-track and unproductive.

Allopathic orthopedic programs can be tough for DOs to match in, but it's not impossible. Now you may not think it's fair, but MDs have a significant advantage over DOs in obtaining allopathic residencies. You might want to check the Orthopedic forum, I think there was a recent discussion no this. Give me a second and I might find the link.

Sports medicine isn't a residency, it's a fellowship. That is, you have to do a residency before applying for sports medicine. My understanding is there are two types: ortho sports medicine and primary care sports medicine. Honestly, I'm not sure how competitive the sports medicine fellowships are. But some of the fellowships require that you've had an ACGME-approved residency (allopathic) and again, DOs don't seem to match into allopathic ortho residencies as easily as US MDs. However, I doubt that all sports medicine fellowships require a previous ACGME-residency, but I haven't researched enough on that topic to give you a concrete answer.

Phil Anthropist said:

Oh I'm not mad at you or anything like that, but these threads do devolve. Everyone gets so defensive, insults are made, and you see the worst sides of people. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but there's a "Sticky" thread on the top of the pre-osteopathic forum that's basically stuck there to remind everyone to not get in MD vs. DO flame wars. Sadly it still happens more frequently than you might think. I realize that your post didn't have anything inflammatory, but even when MD/DO threads are created with good intentions, it's not uncommon for the threads to get off-track and unproductive.

Allopathic orthopedic programs can be tough for DOs to match in, but it's not impossible. Now you may not think it's fair, but MDs have a significant advantage over DOs in obtaining allopathic residencies. You might want to check the Orthopedic forum, I think there was a recent discussion no this. Give me a second and I might find the link.

Sports medicine isn't a residency, it's a fellowship. That is, you have to do a residency before applying for sports medicine. My understanding is there are two types: ortho sports medicine and primary care sports medicine. Honestly, I'm not sure how competitive the sports medicine fellowships are. But some of the fellowships require that you've had an ACGME-approved residency (allopathic) and again, DOs don't seem to match into allopathic ortho residencies as easily as US MDs. However, I doubt that all sports medicine fellowships require a previous ACGME-residency, but I haven't researched enough on that topic to give you a concrete answer.

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There are several AOA sports medicine fellowships as well.

Phil Anthropist said:

Oh I'm not mad at you or anything like that, but these threads do devolve. Everyone gets so defensive, insults are made, and you see the worst sides of people. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but there's a "Sticky" thread on the top of the pre-osteopathic forum that's basically stuck there to remind everyone to not get in MD vs. DO flame wars. Sadly it still happens more frequently than you might think. I realize that your post didn't have anything inflammatory, but even when MD/DO threads are created with good intentions, it's not uncommon for the threads to get off-track and unproductive.

Allopathic orthopedic programs can be tough for DOs to match in, but it's not impossible. Now you may not think it's fair, but MDs have a significant advantage over DOs in obtaining allopathic residencies. You might want to check the Orthopedic forum, I think there was a recent discussion no this. Give me a second and I might find the link.

Sports medicine isn't a residency, it's a fellowship. That is, you have to do a residency before applying for sports medicine. My understanding is there are two types: ortho sports medicine and primary care sports medicine. Honestly, I'm not sure how competitive the sports medicine fellowships are. But some of the fellowships require that you've had an ACGME-approved residency (allopathic) and again, DOs don't seem to match into allopathic ortho residencies as easily as US MDs. However, I doubt that all sports medicine fellowships require a previous ACGME-residency, but I haven't researched enough on that topic to give you a concrete answer.

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I haven't run across any that require ACGME, my chief is going into sports med, he says it is a non issue

Fusion said:

Jug, welcome to SDN.

Click the "search" function, click "advanced search," type "DO Caribbean" in the space, highlight "titles only," and highlight "pre-osteopathic," then run the search.

You will find more information than you will ever need on this topic.

Also, check out the orthopedic forum.

Click to expand...

In the future, instead of lashing out at new users for asking common questions, people should respond like Fusion. 👍

Bull's eye said:

I haven't run across any that require ACGME, my chief is going into sports med, he says it is a non issue

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Here's one example

http://www.bumc.bu.edu/Dept/Content.aspx?DepartmentID=62&PageID=4217

Maybe these are few, but restrictions do exist in some programs.

JKDMed said:

I've never liked the idea of using match lists to judge the quality and limitations of schools. You have no idea if someone matched to what they wanted to match and those who were forced to settle. You also have no idea who scored poorly on the boards due to lack of effort rather than poor education.

I don't think match lists really tell you anything.

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I agree that there is a lot of information not provided. I also agree that individual performance is probably more important than anything.

Anyone who heads down to SGU/Ross/AUC/Saba thinking he has the same opportunities as a US med student is misinformed. There are some Caribbean grads here on SDN that matched into highly competitive programs in Radiation Oncology, Ophthalmology, etc. And even if you ask them, they will tell you that the Caribbean grads are at a significant disadvantage.

I surf on ValueMD from time to time and you should see the details of the students matching ortho coming from the Caribbean. They're getting 250+ on USMLEs I and II, loading up on ortho electives, going on away rotations in hopes of auditioning to get letters from big-wigs that will carry weight, etc. The mods on ValueMD will even tell you that you would have a huge advantage matching ortho coming from a US school. The playing field is simply not level.

One of the new mods applied to general surgery this year. He did very well on his boards (close to 240 if I remember correctly, which is somewhere in the top 10% I believe), had good letters, etc. He applied to *eighty* programs. Anyone coming from the US with similar qualifications wouldn't need to apply to nearly that many.

When a med school's match lists have a disproportionately low number of matches for several years for a specific residency, you might want to consider why that's the case. Perhaps it's just personal preference or perhaps it's because the students have a difficult time getting into that particular specialty. I call my best friend at SGU weekly and he knows many of his peers are interested in specialties like neurosurgery, ortho, etc. When the match comes around there is no way that all of them will successfully get their residencies of choice. If a person is considering something as highly competitive as ortho, he/she should at least have an idea of how the Caribbean students match if he/she is going to go that route. Going to the Caribbean for a foreign medical education is too expensive an investment to not consider all the important information available.