I have been accepted into next years classes for both AUC and Pikeville. Obviously one being an MD school in the caribbean and one being a DO school in the states. I am just confused as to where I should go to receive the best education. I have heard negatives and positives about both and I am just tyring to get more information. If anyone has any info I would be sooooo happy! Thanks.
AUC (caribbean) vs. Pikeville (american DO school)????
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u should do a search on this forum cause i have seen many threads about carribean md vs american do. generally though, most of the threads, including myself, say that u should do the american do, unless u really want different letters after ur name.
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There have been other threads that discuss this same issue. You would probably do well to do a quick search on the topic. However, I will offer my opinion. You need to be proud of the decision you make. If being a MD makes you feel better, then you should pursue that. If you would be proud of being a DO, then stay and go DO. Take into account that my response is bias because I would choose DO over MD almost any day. Hope this helps and have a great time being a physician (DO or MD).rc2424 said:
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I personally know several ppl who are at several differnt medical schools in the Caribbean who now wish that they would have stayed stateside for DO programs or to wait another year and try again for MD. They are experiencing relatively high drop out rates among their classmates and their friends are not able to get into any residencies that are even reasonably competitive (this does happen but is not common). I myslef am secure with myself and will not have a problem with the letters "D.O." behind my name.
I personally would take another year or multiple years off to up your allopathic application before going to a foreign medical school.
Regardless, follow your heart and good luck.
I personally would take another year or multiple years off to up your allopathic application before going to a foreign medical school.
Regardless, follow your heart and good luck.
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yo take pikeville...my cousin went there and matched at northwestern in IM, which is pretty decent (i think)...it's a good school and it has an undergrad as well, so it should be cool...plus auc isn't even the best school in the caribbean, and you have to look at what the residency match competitiveness will be 4 years from now...
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You will probably have better options w/ the Pikeville degree. Only choose AUC if the MD letters are extremely important to you, even after you have spent time wrapping your head around the idea that a doc is a doc, you make the same dough either way, patients won't know or care, etc., etc., etc.
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My good friend graduated AUC, i have visited him and saw the school. St Maarten is a beautiful place to visit for vacation, but a horrible place to live. I mean I am sure now he remembers only the nice sides of it, but back then he was complaining quite often. Going to AUC also means that you will have to do rotations in England, or if you're lucky to stay in US you will have to go all around because they aren't in the same hospital or even city.
My friend graduated, really wanting to do Urology. His grades were very good and he is also a very hard worker, with research and publication in the field. Well, guess what? He was told in exact words that even though they liked him,, they couldn't take a foreign grad. He got an offer from a so so hospital for Internal Medicine and he took it. He still regrets going to Carribean, and the reason why he went there was because he didn't want to take MCAT.
Now I am not saying that you will automatically be able to get any residency that you want being a American grad DO or an MD for that matter, it depends on 'you, but your opportunities are quite limited being an FMG, which is what you'll be coming out of AUC. Being a DO can also cause problems obtaining certain residencies, but your opportunities are FAR better being an American grad.
My friend graduated, really wanting to do Urology. His grades were very good and he is also a very hard worker, with research and publication in the field. Well, guess what? He was told in exact words that even though they liked him,, they couldn't take a foreign grad. He got an offer from a so so hospital for Internal Medicine and he took it. He still regrets going to Carribean, and the reason why he went there was because he didn't want to take MCAT.
Now I am not saying that you will automatically be able to get any residency that you want being a American grad DO or an MD for that matter, it depends on 'you, but your opportunities are quite limited being an FMG, which is what you'll be coming out of AUC. Being a DO can also cause problems obtaining certain residencies, but your opportunities are FAR better being an American grad.
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rc2424 said:
If going to the Caribbean is even a consideration over an American school, be gone!!
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Static Line said:
ya sometimes I wonder why its even a question? I mean if you really do care whether you have an M.D. behind your name instead of D.O. should you really even be a doctor? just my two cents.
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I feel I must weigh in here. I have first hand knowlege of this type of situation as I sit on the recruting committee of a big time ACGME Family and Community medicine program. Let me tell you that in my experience, FEW IF ANY Caribbran grads ever make it back to the US. They may secure residences, but they are usually at NON-ACGME programs or in very undesireable specialties or areas. If you have "Caribbean" training, you will NEVER see the halls of my institution. Many of us in Academic Medicine as a whole are very leery of caribbean trained physicians. The training is subpar and the admissions are a near joke. I would venture to say that the last ranked student at Pikeville could outshine the top ranked student at a school like AUC. In my years of Medical Education, I have never heard of a reputable program even allowing privildges to a Caribbean trianed physician. It just is not done. The VA medical system as well as Indian Reservations medical programs are usually where caribbean graduates go to seek employment. It is too much of a risk. You will never be able to train at an Academic center. It is highly doubtful that any accredited academic institution would ever even allow a Caribbean graduate a residency position. I cannot see a Dean of any US medical school ever allowing a Caribbean graduate into the hospital system. It just does not happen.
Please take my advice and go to Pikeville. It is an excellent school that would afford you 100X the education that any school in the "hurricane" belt would. You cannot even compare these educations. DO you want an American Medical Degree or a degree from some diploma mill from some unaccreddited school in Grenada? Please reconsider this insanity.
GO DO NOW.
Dr Lewis
Please take my advice and go to Pikeville. It is an excellent school that would afford you 100X the education that any school in the "hurricane" belt would. You cannot even compare these educations. DO you want an American Medical Degree or a degree from some diploma mill from some unaccreddited school in Grenada? Please reconsider this insanity.
GO DO NOW.
Dr Lewis
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rc2424 said:
All good advice here, except from DRLEWISDO (I looked at his previous posts and doubt he is a Dr. or even a med student). I am a student at Pikeville now, I think its a good school. It has its problems, but they all do, MD or DO. Have you been down to see AUC in person? Have you looked at the cost of living for both places? Do you have an idea of what area of medicine you are interested in? Have you compared the CORE sites for your 3rd and 4th years? Are they near where you want to live? Do you have an interest in learning OMT? All these questions are important. I think you will get a good education at either school. You will find med school is what you make of it. If you bust your butt and study a lot you will be a good Doc no matter what school you go to. If you slack, you will be crappy no matter where you go. There are good arguments both ways for DO and Caribbean schools. My advice is go with your gut, and what ever you do, dont make your decision based on what a bunch of dorks on SDN say.
Good luck, feel free to PM me if you have questions about Pikeville. I will tell you whats up with no spin.E-
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crys20 said:
Well said.
well i just wanted to say thank you to everyone who replied. it doesn't matter to me whether i have DO or MD after my name🙂 They are both equally qualified in my mind. It is just such a difficult decision (especially after reading all of the threads on here) because there is A LOT of negativity that has been posted about pikeville and the caribbean. i just want to make sure i make the right decision. so thanks to all who helped!
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I would recommend DO if you are not interested in practicing Medicine overseas.
DRLEWISDO I dont know where you are getting your facts from. what are you talking about. " FEW IF ANY Caribbran grads ever make it back to the US. They may secure residences, but they are usually at NON-ACGME programs or in very undesireable specialties or areas. If you have "Caribbean" training, you will NEVER see the halls of my institution. Many of us in Academic Medicine as a whole are very leery of caribbean trained physicians. The training is subpar and the admissions are a near joke. I would venture to say that the last ranked student at Pikeville could outshine the top ranked student at a school like AUC. In my years of Medical Education, I have never heard of a reputable program even allowing privildges to a Caribbean trianed physician. It just is not done. The VA medical system as well as Indian Reservations medical programs are usually where caribbean graduates go to seek employment. It is too much of a risk. You will never be able to train at an Academic center"
I dislike people who think that they education is better than others...and if your grade/mcat was so great you would not have a DO after your name...and I am pretty sure that you were rejected from a allopathic school.
Have you checked out the match list for SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba. They seems pretty amazing to me. I do not think that you have the right to criticize FMG because wherever a person chooses to get a medical degree is its problem... and all you have to do is be supportive. A friend of mine went to Saba and is doing cardiology fellowship at a top university program... so when you make the statement that FMG does not get NON-ACGME program, it is false.
Every single one of us out here is struggling to make a better life, so at the end all that matters is if you can afford rent and take care of your family.
Dont get me wrong, there are people that always wanted to be a DO like my inlaw. Also there are people that prefers MD even to the extent of going to Carib school to get it.
If you look at the GPA/mcat score and Residencies listing for AUC/SGU/Ross students, there are about the same for DO schools.
rc2424, make the best decision for your self and do not let the name of a school or initials after your name to determine who you are or what doctor you will become. People still attend Harvard/Yale only to apply into a community family medicine training.
Dont allow a stupid decision from allopathic school to stop you. If you prefer U.S allopathic and wants it bad, retake your mcat and take some classes in college to raise your gpa and reapply.
What do I know, I am only studying for the mcat.
DRLEWISDO I dont know where you are getting your facts from. what are you talking about. " FEW IF ANY Caribbran grads ever make it back to the US. They may secure residences, but they are usually at NON-ACGME programs or in very undesireable specialties or areas. If you have "Caribbean" training, you will NEVER see the halls of my institution. Many of us in Academic Medicine as a whole are very leery of caribbean trained physicians. The training is subpar and the admissions are a near joke. I would venture to say that the last ranked student at Pikeville could outshine the top ranked student at a school like AUC. In my years of Medical Education, I have never heard of a reputable program even allowing privildges to a Caribbean trianed physician. It just is not done. The VA medical system as well as Indian Reservations medical programs are usually where caribbean graduates go to seek employment. It is too much of a risk. You will never be able to train at an Academic center"
I dislike people who think that they education is better than others...and if your grade/mcat was so great you would not have a DO after your name...and I am pretty sure that you were rejected from a allopathic school.
Have you checked out the match list for SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba. They seems pretty amazing to me. I do not think that you have the right to criticize FMG because wherever a person chooses to get a medical degree is its problem... and all you have to do is be supportive. A friend of mine went to Saba and is doing cardiology fellowship at a top university program... so when you make the statement that FMG does not get NON-ACGME program, it is false.
Every single one of us out here is struggling to make a better life, so at the end all that matters is if you can afford rent and take care of your family.
Dont get me wrong, there are people that always wanted to be a DO like my inlaw. Also there are people that prefers MD even to the extent of going to Carib school to get it.
If you look at the GPA/mcat score and Residencies listing for AUC/SGU/Ross students, there are about the same for DO schools.
rc2424, make the best decision for your self and do not let the name of a school or initials after your name to determine who you are or what doctor you will become. People still attend Harvard/Yale only to apply into a community family medicine training.
Dont allow a stupid decision from allopathic school to stop you. If you prefer U.S allopathic and wants it bad, retake your mcat and take some classes in college to raise your gpa and reapply.
What do I know, I am only studying for the mcat.
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I pretty much gave my point of view already on this issue, however, I have to disagree with DrLewisDO, whoever he is. Some of the students, especially US grads who go to Carribean schools, have reasons other than inadequate grades. As I already said, this friend of mine didn't want to take MCAT. Is he a capable student however - he worked as PA for few years prior, his boards are over 90, etc., so he is a capable applicant, and the fact that some residencies look down on people with Carribeean diplomas, doesn't mean that these people are worse than US grads. By the way, his class match OK, and I know that SGU and Ross lso match their students pretty well. Not that they don't have problems, but so do DOs who try to go for certain allo residencies.
However, being a US grad will definitgely put you in a better position applying for residencies, than coming out of Carribean. Will you be able to capitalize on that? That's up to you.
However, being a US grad will definitgely put you in a better position applying for residencies, than coming out of Carribean. Will you be able to capitalize on that? That's up to you.
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I would say DO, but that DRLEWIS character is way off on his eval of IMG's too. Being an IMG does not preclude you from a good resideny, but i think it would be easier as an American DO. Do the search and remember it is your decision
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DRLEWISDO said:
What a load of B.S.
But to respond to the original poster, go whereever you want. AUC is a good school and so is Pikeville. Personally, I'd go to AUC, partly because I'd love living on the island. AUC does require the MCAT btw...maybe they didn't in the past, I don't know.
But anyone who says you can't get a good residency if you attend a foreign medical school is incorrect. For example, one of the mods on this website (stephew) went to a Caribbean medical school, SGU, and got her residency at John Hopkins in Radiation Oncology.
AUC is not quite as good as SGU though, imo.
Just an opinion.
Johnny
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Ahh... the good doctor is back. I saw they put DRLEWISDO's account on hold for a while, but he is back in his quest to make every D.O. look like an ignorant braying jackass. Hey, instead of that, maybe you could go back to your day job of sending me email messages asking me to buy Viaaaaagrrraaaa at a discount!
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uuuuummmmmm......
Isn't AUC the school that has rotations in NY? I thought the A stood for American? I know two people down there and MCATs are definitely required, but a bachelor's degree is not (just 90 hours towards it - a few med schools here in the continent have the same requirement).
I believe AUC is a fully accredited American medical school. Not saying they don't have problems - one of the folks referred to above regrets going there now.
Also, I know SGU has a graduate in Denver on staff at Children's Hospital.
Personally, I'd rather go DO then Caribbean, but I have my own reasons for that. Bottom line is no one but you can make this decision. You need to weigh the pros and cons and look in your heart for where you feel you truly belong (and "on the beach studying" is NOT what I'm talking about 🙂 !).
Isn't AUC the school that has rotations in NY? I thought the A stood for American? I know two people down there and MCATs are definitely required, but a bachelor's degree is not (just 90 hours towards it - a few med schools here in the continent have the same requirement).
I believe AUC is a fully accredited American medical school. Not saying they don't have problems - one of the folks referred to above regrets going there now.
Also, I know SGU has a graduate in Denver on staff at Children's Hospital.
Personally, I'd rather go DO then Caribbean, but I have my own reasons for that. Bottom line is no one but you can make this decision. You need to weigh the pros and cons and look in your heart for where you feel you truly belong (and "on the beach studying" is NOT what I'm talking about 🙂 !).
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PCSOM is a great school. We have a person in our class that transferred from AUC. She wanted to get closer to home and seems to really like PCSOM. I love it here. I agree with eadyxs, we have our problems, but every school does. I am glad I chose to go to PCSOM over my other option. I have no regrets. If you have any questions about the school, dont hesitate to PM me.
Aaron
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medic170 said:
My fault - it IS accredited by the US Dept of Ed, and as such students can get Stafford loans. But even though they do have clerkships in NY and CA, it is buried in their website that you take the USMLEs under ECFMG.
Weird - not considered a US medical school, but accredited for clerkships in the US and for federal student loan funds. The two guys I know who went there swore up and down it was a US med school and AUC portrayed itself to them as a US med school. They must be pissed.
BTW - just 'cuz it's not in the US doesn't mean it isn't US accredited. Quatar is building a university in their country that is accredited in the US and taught by US citizens - essentially a US university on foreign soil.
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ShyRem said:
You are confusing two different things.
AUC/SGU/Ross (and perhaps other schools) students are eligible for Title IV funding (stafford loans) because the schools has satisfied US Department of Education requirements for funding (see Higher Education Act of 1965 for the rules) and has completed the review process.
As far as accreditation, the US Dept of Education has recognize the LCME as the ONLY agency able to accrediate medical schools in the United States. The US DOE also recognize the AOA as the only agency able to accrediate ostoepathic medical school in the US. States board of medicine will only recognize LCME (and AOA if there is no seperate board of osteopathic medicine) schools as "accredited medical colleges". Graduates from unaccredited schools will need ECFMG.
LCME does not accredit any schools outside the United States or Canada. AUC is not LCME accredited and for all intent and purposes, is considered a non-accredited medical school by various state medical boards. Being able to do rotations/clerkships in the US has nothing to do with accreditation ... it is up to the individual state board of medicine/osteopathic medicine and hospitals if they want to have foreign medical students rotate through their programs.
The new school in Qatar is interesting. It is essentially a branch campus of Cornell University Weill Medical College. It was the intent of Cornell to have the branch campus in Qatar be LCME accredited as a branch campus of their NY program. There are rules and requirements that must be met before "branch" status can be given to Cornell-Qatar by the LCME. As of today, it is not LCME-accredited and graduates must obtain ECFMG in order to get licensed and residency.
Here is a list of LCME-accredited school
http://www.lcme.org/directry.htm
PA State Board of Medicine
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/049/chapter16/chap16toc.html
§ 16.1. Definitions
Accredited medical collegeAn institution of higher learning accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education to provide courses in the arts and sciences of medicine and related subjects and empowered to grant professional and academic degrees in medicine.
Oregon
http://www.bme.state.or.us/phyappgeneralinformation1.html
An approved school of medicine is one offering a program of study in medicine or osteopathy leading to a degree of Doctor of Medicine or Doctor of Osteopathy. Such a program must be accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education or the American Osteopathic Association, ...
An unapproved school of medicine is one not approved by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education or its successor agency, or the American Osteopathic Association or its successor agency ...
http://www.admissionsboards.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=712&TOPIC_ID=326&FORUM_ID=27
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2002/11/25/prsc1125.htm
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Unless you count the three Puerto Rican schools 😉medic170 said:
But yes, none of the ones that usually come up (SGU, Ross, AUC, Saba, etc.).
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DRLEWISDO said:
DRLEWISDO said:
Lewis, maybe you should do some research before you start talking out of your a$$. Here are links to two caribbean MD physicians in academic medicine (there are more I could find) at highly reputable medical schools and in very competitive fields.
http://dgsom.healthsciences.ucla.edu/institution/physician?personnel_id=10124
http://www.yalemds.org/Profile.asp?...irectory&zip=&state=&country=&pict_id=2306510
DRLEWISDO said:
DRLEWISDO said:
Have you seen the residency match lists from SGU and AUC. Their grads have matched in nearly every field, at good academic centers as well.
http://www.aucmed.edu/students/resid_appts.htm
I can't find SGU's right now, but there's is even better than AUC's with matches in ortho, derm., etc.
In the future, perhaps when talking about caribbean schools, maybe rather than making broad generalizations, the big 3 caribbean medical schools (SGU, AUC, Ross) should be distinguished from the rest. Some of Lewis' comments may actually apply to some caribbean schools other than the big 3, but it's not fair to generalize all caribbean school the way Lewis has done.
Lewis, DO's like yourself who have chips on their shoulders do not reflect well on the osteopathic community. It sends the message that DO's must put other types of medical graduates down in order to make themselves feel less inferior.
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homealone3 thanks a lot for your post. DrLewisDo is probably a preMed student like me. I looked up his his previous posts and I think that he is fraud. I think that he should stop lying about being on the recruting committee of a big time ACGME Family and Community medicine program. It is time for us to stop judging people, and to begin accepting people for who they are. We all hope to get accepted by a medical school in the state. When that doesnt work out, I give my respect to anyone that refuses to let the admission committee of a Medical school to decide their future ambition.
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To the orginal post...I myself strongly considered going abroad over taking my DO acceptance to VCOM. My situation is that I'm on a couple of allopath wait lists, I have a VCOM acceptance, and a few post bacc applications out. I have decided to take the VCOM acceptance over post bacc or Carib (or even one of my allopath wait lists) for the following reasons:
1) I visited VCOM and I LOVED the facilities and people. I agree with what someone said earlier on this thread...actually visiting the place helps you make a much more informed decision.
2) I have a brother that went overseas, and he basically had to struggle to get an internal medicine residency (without even having guidance through Match). Btw he scored over 90 on both USMLE's....
3) The Carib is third-world. Period. Having a US Medical degree is much more desireable.
4) I dont see a big difference in residencies, honestly. My other brother goes to a VA Med school (allopathic), and I recently attended Match Day there. Only 6 of the grads matched in radiology (including my brother), and maybe less than 5 people matched in any other presitigious residency (derm, rad onc, ENT)....everyone else was doing primary care, which is what everyone says about DO schools. My point: There really isnt a difference between what residencies you'll get as a US MD and a US DO (Unless you go to Harvard/Duke/Hopkins) HOWEVER, there is a difference between the Residencies you'll get with a US degree vs. Foreign MD.
4) Last, as much as most of you will not want to admit, there is a definite stigma attached to foreign medical schools. If you go to AUC, and have that diploma on your wall, everyone that looks at it will know that you weren't good enough to get into a US Medical school....do you want to deal with that?
But then again, you'll be judged more on the work you do. My dad's a foreign med graduate and makes a hell of a lot of money as a radiologist....so go fig.
My two cents, go to Pikeville. I was accepted there but turned it down...however, I would go there any day over the caribbean.
Good luck!
1) I visited VCOM and I LOVED the facilities and people. I agree with what someone said earlier on this thread...actually visiting the place helps you make a much more informed decision.
2) I have a brother that went overseas, and he basically had to struggle to get an internal medicine residency (without even having guidance through Match). Btw he scored over 90 on both USMLE's....
3) The Carib is third-world. Period. Having a US Medical degree is much more desireable.
4) I dont see a big difference in residencies, honestly. My other brother goes to a VA Med school (allopathic), and I recently attended Match Day there. Only 6 of the grads matched in radiology (including my brother), and maybe less than 5 people matched in any other presitigious residency (derm, rad onc, ENT)....everyone else was doing primary care, which is what everyone says about DO schools. My point: There really isnt a difference between what residencies you'll get as a US MD and a US DO (Unless you go to Harvard/Duke/Hopkins) HOWEVER, there is a difference between the Residencies you'll get with a US degree vs. Foreign MD.
4) Last, as much as most of you will not want to admit, there is a definite stigma attached to foreign medical schools. If you go to AUC, and have that diploma on your wall, everyone that looks at it will know that you weren't good enough to get into a US Medical school....do you want to deal with that?
But then again, you'll be judged more on the work you do. My dad's a foreign med graduate and makes a hell of a lot of money as a radiologist....so go fig.
My two cents, go to Pikeville. I was accepted there but turned it down...however, I would go there any day over the caribbean.
Good luck!
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two words...CULTURE SHOCK!
just spent 2 months in the caribbean for a research project, and while its fun for about 7 days, its a total pain to live there. the programs arent selective as what the medical students that i met at bars tell me. basically if you can afford it, then you are in.
stigmas against DO's i will take anyday over stigmas against FMG's. gotta realize that your patients will usually not care, its your peers that will facilitate stigmas, and i know many MS4 that would much rather work or even be trained by a DO than with a FMG.
plus you dont need to care what other md's say about you. in the real academic setting md's and do's are all idiots according to the phd's. 😛
just spent 2 months in the caribbean for a research project, and while its fun for about 7 days, its a total pain to live there. the programs arent selective as what the medical students that i met at bars tell me. basically if you can afford it, then you are in.
stigmas against DO's i will take anyday over stigmas against FMG's. gotta realize that your patients will usually not care, its your peers that will facilitate stigmas, and i know many MS4 that would much rather work or even be trained by a DO than with a FMG.
plus you dont need to care what other md's say about you. in the real academic setting md's and do's are all idiots according to the phd's. 😛
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rc2424 said:
I think you should take the DO route. I think it is risky attending a foreign med school because of their pass rates on the USMLE 1 and USMLE 2. I think you have to take additional licensing exams as well, not to mention the cost of foreign education! An apartment around the AUC campus goes for $1000/month. That is rediculous to pay if you are a full time med student. You will also find that many US graduates (MD/DO) frown on FMGs. DO physicians are respected. However, I do not fell as though they are respected liked they should be, compared to MDs. DOs usually perform better on licensing exams than FMGs. I think the DO route is a safer one to travel. Statistically, only 25% of the students that enroll in foreign schools get to practice medicine in the US.
50% actually finish and only 50% of those guys get a chance to do a enter a residency in the US (Like I said, around 25%). As long as you don't mind being called DO over MD, I think you should choose Pikeville. However, that is just my opinion.
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It's "route" not "rought"
Also, as of either this year or last year, even US Med students have to take the CSA exam, which normally was only meant for FMG's.
OK, i'm done disputing some points in the earlier thread, but I still agree that you should go to Pikeville.
Also, as of either this year or last year, even US Med students have to take the CSA exam, which normally was only meant for FMG's.
OK, i'm done disputing some points in the earlier thread, but I still agree that you should go to Pikeville.
As a USIMG I would echo what others have said here. Going "offshore" will nearly 100% be always harder for someone desiring to come back to the states. There are stigmas against IMG's and DO's (please don't let anyone tell you differently), but a DO has a US education and with respect to licensing, etc.. will have a much easier time of things. I personally chose not even to apply to a DO school. I honestly don't really believe in the "OMM philospophy, etc.." and I honestly can say with 100% certainty that every DO I have ever worked with in "real life" not SCHOOL or pre-meds, have not used OMM. I am sorry, but I WOULD SURMISE 99.9% of DO's DO NOT use this in everyday practice. I have never been able to tell any difference between a DO or MD or IMG based solely on their degree. It just is not like that in "real life". I would never let someone's degree decide if I consult them or not. IN the "real world" most people don't care...but some still do. I have certainly been looked down upon because of where I went to school. It is something that I have to deal with. Nothing you can do about ignorance. I wanted to be an MD...NOT DO, so I deal with the scrutiny of what some may say regarding my education. If you go to a DO school, there will be times you will face the same scrutiny and prejudice (albeit less I would guess). That is a personal decision. I didn't want to have to expliain the degree difference for the rest of my life. Call me weak, call me petty or whatever, but that is the truth FOR ME. I have many friends who are DO's and consequently are phenomenal doctor's, but they forever hate the fact that the question of "what is a DO comes up?". It sucks for them. In the end that stuff does not matter, being a good doctor is about the physician, the person, NOT the degree. I admittedly feel kind of ashamed that I would still rather be an FMG MD than a DO. I may be in the severe minority here, and I admit it is probably a character flaw, but I am just being 100% honest.
I would counsel someone asking this question to go to ANY US School over a foreign school. Pikeville will never certainly be confused with Harvard, but it will universally usually be easier to make it from Pikeville than any offshore school. I went to an offshore school and am now a cardiology fellow at a University program. This has NOT been easy, and I have had to work harder, and catch some "breaks" to be where I am at. It has been a long road for me, and I surmise would have been easier had I had a US education (be it DO or MD). I honestly can tell you that I am much happier being an MD (even from the Caribbean) than a DO. For me, it was worth it. I would still say for most people, GO TO THE US. It is easier to make it. There are many people that I know who didn't make it or were relegated to a specialty or residency that they didn't want who I went to school with. This isn't really a hard decision to make. Universally I would say go DO. I would caution you to realize that going "DO" when you look at it as a second choice to an MD may be something you have to deal with later. Still, I say "get over it" and go to Pikeville. Good luck in med school.
I would counsel someone asking this question to go to ANY US School over a foreign school. Pikeville will never certainly be confused with Harvard, but it will universally usually be easier to make it from Pikeville than any offshore school. I went to an offshore school and am now a cardiology fellow at a University program. This has NOT been easy, and I have had to work harder, and catch some "breaks" to be where I am at. It has been a long road for me, and I surmise would have been easier had I had a US education (be it DO or MD). I honestly can tell you that I am much happier being an MD (even from the Caribbean) than a DO. For me, it was worth it. I would still say for most people, GO TO THE US. It is easier to make it. There are many people that I know who didn't make it or were relegated to a specialty or residency that they didn't want who I went to school with. This isn't really a hard decision to make. Universally I would say go DO. I would caution you to realize that going "DO" when you look at it as a second choice to an MD may be something you have to deal with later. Still, I say "get over it" and go to Pikeville. Good luck in med school.
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jgar26 said:
Great post! I strongly believe that if you can make it out of a Caribbean med school then that says a lot. I have to agree with you that DOs and IMGs are discriminated against, but I do believe that DOs have it easier than IMGs because their US training is seldom discriminated against. To the surprise of many, DOs can get pretty good residencies too. I do not believe in the whole OMM philosophy mumbo jumbo crap neither. Ill leave that to the crooked chiropractors. However, you will find that many DOs do not believe in OMM neither. A lot of DOs just use Osteopathy as a stepping stone to an allopathic residency. There are even surgical residencies open only to Osteopaths. I will only apply to Osteopathic schools if I am turned down from every U.S. allopathic school that I apply to. Once again, Your post was great. I t offers an insightful few of both perspectives. 👍
Yours,
Caraway
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Contrary to other posts there are many DO's who practice OMM exclusively, and there are articles published in NEJM and other journals supporting its efficacy. I have practiced in an allopathic based chronic pain clinic for 6 years and a lvl I ED in a community hospital for 3 years where OMM was used frequently. However low, I do believe the AOA reports 35% of it members use OMM as an adjunct to other therapies in a daily setting.
I would implore upon you that osteopathy is a choice. Do not become a DO just because you cannot make the cut in allopathic schools. I believe the folks who go DO just to get a medical license should put their nose to the grind stone, or make the changes in themselves affording their entry to allopathic programs. If you want to help others as a physician then it really does not matter what program you go through, but if you see osteopathy as a last resort or lesser being then refrain from osteopathy.
I have been in the medical field for nearly twenty years now. For the most part, the folks who have any stigmas with osteopathy are the docs 60 y/o and above, and the young pre-meds who just have not had enough of life to understand.
I have looked at allopathic programs, worked in teaching hospitals, and made osteopathy my choice. I hope that you will consider what you truly want, rather concern yourself with the question of what residency you will apply four years from now. As many posters have show, it is not really what school you get into, but what you do with the time you are in a program. It is up to you
I would implore upon you that osteopathy is a choice. Do not become a DO just because you cannot make the cut in allopathic schools. I believe the folks who go DO just to get a medical license should put their nose to the grind stone, or make the changes in themselves affording their entry to allopathic programs. If you want to help others as a physician then it really does not matter what program you go through, but if you see osteopathy as a last resort or lesser being then refrain from osteopathy.
I have been in the medical field for nearly twenty years now. For the most part, the folks who have any stigmas with osteopathy are the docs 60 y/o and above, and the young pre-meds who just have not had enough of life to understand.
I have looked at allopathic programs, worked in teaching hospitals, and made osteopathy my choice. I hope that you will consider what you truly want, rather concern yourself with the question of what residency you will apply four years from now. As many posters have show, it is not really what school you get into, but what you do with the time you are in a program. It is up to you
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medic170 said:
I was a patient care specialist (PCT) in ED, a telemetry unit for one year, ICU for 2 years, and hospice for one year. Depending on the institutional or state you live in the scope of practice, and training required varies. A PCT scope of practice ranges from a glorified NA or a Paramedic operating in the ED vs. on wheels.
Also I was a massage therapist on top of all this for 13 years and have authored a book on emotional states and health and healing. This last credentaling allowed direct patient care in the chronic pain clinic, as a massage therapist. This clinic also conducted research in the efficacy of massage therapy with our patients, and authoring a research grant for NCCAM/NIH (I hope I got the NCCAM acronym correct, its been a while)....I have a bit more background, but I think this should satisfy your curiosity....
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inhope said:
Sorry, I thought you said you practiced medicine. I have been a paramedic (ER Tech too 👍 ) for 7 years and I have never heard anyone say they "practice" paramedicine, so it just sounded awkward the way you worded it. WWhen someone says they "practiced" most people think of a profession rather than a technician (like practicing law or medicine). I get you now, thanks.
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DRLEWISDO said:
http://sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Home/2005ResidencyAppointmentListBySpecialty.htm
Most of the matches are at univeristy programs troll boy.
Quick someone help lewis get his foot out of his mouth.
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I am a second year at PCSOM and I say come here especially if you have an interest in OMM. I know students in other DO programs and PCSOM is very competitive in the basic sciences, and especially good in OMM and pharmacology. The class size is small and you can get more individualized attention if needed.
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You asked specifically about training. I would say that a US DO school would allow for significantly better chances to experience good training.
It's important to realize that the "training" really starts in residency in many ways. So, being in an institution that can offer good residency training seems best.
My personal opinion is that it would be far better to do a US program than overseas. Also, for anyone concerned with prestige or stigma etc. The Caribean thing does not bode too well given the general opinion of those schools (whether justified or not).
That being said, a family doc of mine when I was a kid went to AUC, and I thought he was a pretty good doc. He was a partner in a very successful practice.
It's important to realize that the "training" really starts in residency in many ways. So, being in an institution that can offer good residency training seems best.
My personal opinion is that it would be far better to do a US program than overseas. Also, for anyone concerned with prestige or stigma etc. The Caribean thing does not bode too well given the general opinion of those schools (whether justified or not).
That being said, a family doc of mine when I was a kid went to AUC, and I thought he was a pretty good doc. He was a partner in a very successful practice.
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Go Pikeville for sure.
Doctors of Osteo get much more opportunity throughout the U.S. and more respect than someone who went to school in the caribbean. Plus the training is better imo.
AUC also costs about 1/4 million $ altogether... they are raising their tuition again also over the next few years..... so you're getting less for much more. It's very misleading when their website says it's only $9659 /semester or whatever... but by the time you've paid for everything it's 250k.
This money stuff is not my opinion, it is a fact directly from Greg Melbourne at the financial aid office of auc.
Johnny
Doctors of Osteo get much more opportunity throughout the U.S. and more respect than someone who went to school in the caribbean. Plus the training is better imo.
AUC also costs about 1/4 million $ altogether... they are raising their tuition again also over the next few years..... so you're getting less for much more. It's very misleading when their website says it's only $9659 /semester or whatever... but by the time you've paid for everything it's 250k.
This money stuff is not my opinion, it is a fact directly from Greg Melbourne at the financial aid office of auc.
Johnny
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JohnnyOU said:
Maybe in Oklahoma and the mid west DO's get more respect, but out in the west coast, most people (MD's included) still don't really know what a DO is. I ve talked to young and old MD's and they see DO's as something in the line as a Nurse Practioner. So I won't say that DO's get more respect than carribean grads.
If having a DO after your name doesn't bother you, then it shouldn't be an issue. But as for respect, I think most Docs and residency programs prefer US MD students first, and then hold Carrib. and DO grads in equal regards.
As a carribean grad you'll be an MD. Rarely will it come up where you went to school.
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When looking at residency placements you need to look at what residencies people are getting, and also where they are getting them.
The majority of carrib. students are getting residencies at Allopathic University programs. Where DO students are getting residencies at smaller community hospitals.
Getting a residency spot at a University program will open more doors when applying to fellowships after doing your residency.
http://sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.n...BySpecialty.htm
http://www.rossmed.edu/Residency_Appts_/residency_appts_.html#2005
The majority of carrib. students are getting residencies at Allopathic University programs. Where DO students are getting residencies at smaller community hospitals.
Getting a residency spot at a University program will open more doors when applying to fellowships after doing your residency.
http://sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.n...BySpecialty.htm
http://www.rossmed.edu/Residency_Appts_/residency_appts_.html#2005
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NRAI2001 said:
Please validate your observation that "DO students are getting residencies at smaller community hospitals".
Also, as a D.O. working on the west coast in a predominantly MD emergency medicine group...My opinion is that your statement implying that D.O.s are considered on a par with nurse practitioners on the west coast is laughable. Your basis being that you have talked with "young and old M.D.s" is not quite enough to convince me.)...This being a premed forum it's perfectly understandable that there would be such silliness. Hope others don't give it any validity and consider the source is basing his inane observation on a few informal conversations.
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JohnnyOU said:
BTW and off topic...spent a year undergrad at OU after getting discharged from the Air Force at nearby Tinker AFB. OU (and Norman), was (and probably still is), a pretty cool place.
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gtleeee said:
I never said that I saw DO's on par with NP's, I just said that I ve talked to docs who still don't fully know what a DO is. The person I was replying to said that DO's are more respected than Carribean grads, which isn't true.
This was at UCSF, in the neurology dept (where I volunteer) and in the neurosurgery dept (where I do research), not some backwards hospital in the middle of nowhere. Both of my parents are docs also and I ve asked them about it and their friends also. Very few of them knew what was a DO before I explained it to them.
Maybe you should actually click on the links I ve posted, most of the appointments are at university programs. Can you give us any links showing that the majority of DO residencies from any one school are at university programs?
For me, I ll be applying to US allo, US Osteo, and a few carrib schools this summer, so I m not baised in anyway towards DO's, but to show any bias towards carrib. grads is also unjustified.
Being that this is a premed board, you being here is a bit silly isn't it now?
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