AUC (caribbean) vs. Pikeville (american DO school)????

[NRAI2001]

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Please validate your observation that "DO students are getting residencies at smaller community hospitals".


Also, as a D.O. working on the west coast in a predominantly MD emergency medicine group...My opinion is that your statement implying that D.O.s are considered on a par with nurse practitioners on the west coast is laughable. Your basis being that you have talked with "young and old M.D.s" is not quite enough to convince me.)...This being a premed forum it's perfectly understandable that there would be such silliness. Hope others don't give it any validity and consider the source is basing his inane observation on a few informal conversations.

Given that you haven't once posted in any of the medical boards, and that all your posts have been in the pre allo boards. You being a DO emergency physician is hard to believe.

 

[gtleeee]

I was not the one who made the statement that "Most D.O. students go into residency at smaller community hospitals"...You did. Why should I have to spend time validating a statement you made? I simply asked for any validation of what you wrote? Also, I did not say that IMG grads did or did not predominately do their residency in University institutions. What are you talking about? I have no idea if they do or don't. I also did not suggest that YOU considered D.O.s to be on a par with nurse practitioners. And finally, I make few posts on this forum, but let me get this straight...Are you implying that graduate physicians should not post on the premedical forums when making an inquery concerning a particular post or giving their 2 cents worth. If that is the case than a lot of graduate Docs are making fools of themselves on SDN. You obviously did not read my post. Read and than write please.


[/QUOTE]

 

[gtleeee]

Given that you haven't once posted in any of the medical boards, and that all your posts have been in the pre allo boards. You being a DO emergency physician is hard to believe.

I have less than 10 posts in the 4-5 months I have been registered. And 4 of those were today. You can see that my CP lists (and always has), a graduation date of 1985 from medical school. I am not going to waste my vacation day (hence the 4 posts) with your *****ic obsrvations again. It just eats up too much time. Sorry

 

[JohnnyOU]

BTW and off topic...spent a year undergrad at OU after getting discharged from the Air Force at nearby Tinker AFB. OU (and Norman), was (and probably still is), a pretty cool place.

Yea, it's pretty cool here.... very much the "college town" cliche.

I live about a mile from Barry Switzer's house. Nice house too..haha That guy's not hurting for dough.

 

[gtleeee]

Yea, it's pretty cool here.... very much the "college town" cliche.

I live about a mile from Barry Switzer's house. Nice house too..haha That guy's not hurting for dough.

Well. when I there Oklahoma had just acheived statehood status.) I am sure a lot has changed in the interim.....

 

[Shodddy18]

Why would anyone resurrect a craptacular thread like this? 😕

 

[jetproppilot]

I feel I must weigh in here. I have first hand knowlege of this type of situation as I sit on the recruting committee of a big time ACGME Family and Community medicine program. Let me tell you that in my experience, FEW IF ANY Caribbran grads ever make it back to the US. They may secure residences, but they are usually at NON-ACGME programs or in very undesireable specialties or areas. If you have "Caribbean" training, you will NEVER see the halls of my institution. Many of us in Academic Medicine as a whole are very leery of caribbean trained physicians. The training is subpar and the admissions are a near joke. I would venture to say that the last ranked student at Pikeville could outshine the top ranked student at a school like AUC. In my years of Medical Education, I have never heard of a reputable program even allowing privildges to a Caribbean trianed physician. It just is not done. The VA medical system as well as Indian Reservations medical programs are usually where caribbean graduates go to seek employment. It is too much of a risk. You will never be able to train at an Academic center. It is highly doubtful that any accredited academic institution would ever even allow a Caribbean graduate a residency position. I cannot see a Dean of any US medical school ever allowing a Caribbean graduate into the hospital system. It just does not happen.

Please take my advice and go to Pikeville. It is an excellent school that would afford you 100X the education that any school in the "hurricane" belt would. You cannot even compare these educations. DO you want an American Medical Degree or a degree from some diploma mill from some unaccreddited school in Grenada? Please reconsider this insanity.

GO DO NOW.

Dr Lewis

Although I somewhat agree with you Dude, you are WAY overblowing the lack of opportunities for FMGs. I'm allopathic US trained (MIAMI HURRICANES) but know of many, many FMGs getting residencies here. Maybe you feel as a DO that you have to keep your standards high (referring to your quote "if you have Carribean training you will NEVER see the halls of my institution...geez, thats a little over the top) but I find your post a little silly.
I do agree with you that their challenges are much higher than US trained grads, but there are opportunities, at least in the allopathic world.
Don't misunderstand my post...DOs who do allopathic residencies are no different than MDs...I've worked with two DOs who did allopathic residencies, and we all made the same amount of money. And I agree with your opinion about staying stateside, but lighten up the arrogance a little.

 

[Kubed]

Why would anyone resurrect a craptacular thread like this? 😕

ya!

 

[ambernikel]

Why would anyone resurrect a craptacular thread like this? 😕

Absolutely, positively, the best comment in this thread thus far. 😴

 

[allendo]

First, to the post about D.O.'s being like a NP. So what would they say to a D.O. neurosurgeon??? I guess we could just hand them their equipment, if we are so worthy! So to make a statement like that shows ignorance, and I figured that someone smart enough to be a neurologist or neurosurgeon might be clever enough to figure out what a D.O. is! Then about the residencies, I believe if you work hard you can get whatever you want carrib or D.O. I have two friends that went the carrib route and I went D.O. the difference right now is that have to wonder when the power will be on, when they will have phone lines, and when the next hurricane will hit. The clinical situation looks a little sketchy, but who knows. The reason I went D.O. is b/c it's stateside, I'm from Texas a D.O. friendly state, my doc was a D.O., and I think only Ross grads are granted licensure in Texas right now. Being able to work in my home state was very important to me. The thing about carrib is you have to watch were you do rotations and there are all these rules pertaining to the rotations (green or blue) and whether you can be licensed in a certain state. Also, the loan company my friends went through decided to stop granting loans to the carrib students and they had to scramble to find another company(not many to choose from) to get money for school, they told me half their class couldn't secure loans and had to return home. The thing about carrib is there are alot of hurdles to jump through and in my opinion too many. With D.O. you know your getting an education on par with U.S. M.D., and the only hurdles are if you try to get residency on West coast. The Midwest, South, Southeast, East Coast, all accept D.O. as equals.

 

[NRAI2001]

First, to the post about D.O.'s being like a NP. So what would they say to a D.O. neurosurgeon??? I guess we could just hand them their equipment, if we are so worthy! So to make a statement like that shows ignorance, and I figured that someone smart enough to be a neurologist or neurosurgeon might be clever enough to figure out what a D.O. is! Then about the residencies, I believe if you work hard you can get whatever you want carrib or D.O. I have two friends that went the carrib route and I went D.O. the difference right now is that have to wonder when the power will be on, when they will have phone lines, and when the next hurricane will hit. The clinical situation looks a little sketchy, but who knows. The reason I went D.O. is b/c it's stateside, I'm from Texas a D.O. friendly state, my doc was a D.O., and I think only Ross grads are granted licensure in Texas right now. Being able to work in my home state was very important to me. The thing about carrib is you have to watch were you do rotations and there are all these rules pertaining to the rotations (green or blue) and whether you can be licensed in a certain state. Also, the loan company my friends went through decided to stop granting loans to the carrib students and they had to scramble to find another company(not many to choose from) to get money for school, they told me half their class couldn't secure loans and had to return home. The thing about carrib is there are alot of hurdles to jump through and in my opinion too many. With D.O. you know your getting an education on par with U.S. M.D., and the only hurdles are if you try to get residency on West coast. The Midwest, South, Southeast, East Coast, all accept D.O. as equals.

There are a lot of really arrogant people at UCSF, who don't want to acknowledge that DO's and carrib. grads are real doctors. My bosses and co workers didn't know what a DO was, so I explained it to them and how they could do everything an MD can do and more.....bla bla bla. In the end they were still a bit hesitant to believe me.

They also didn't believe that the carribean schools were legitamite either. They even make fun of some of the lower ranking US schools. It just goes to show you that there are a lot of arrogant doctors, especially in a lot of the top ranking programs.

 

[dr.z]

There are a lot of really arrogant people at UCSF, who don't want to acknowledge that DO's and carrib. grads are real doctors. My bosses and co workers didn't know what a DO was, so I explained it to them and how they could do everything an MD can do and more.....bla bla bla. In the end they were still a bit hesitant to believe me.

They also didn't believe that the carribean schools were legitamite either. They even make fun of some of the lower ranking US schools. It just goes to show you that there are a lot of arrogant doctors, especially in a lot of the top ranking programs.

That's unfortunate.

 

[NRAI2001]

That's unfortunate.

Yea, but all we can do is try to educate them. They ll come around some day. 👍

 

[allendo]

The point is that we will all be physicians and will all eventually work together for the welfare of our patients. I would gladly work beside my two friends that went to the cayman Islands and they would do the same. We have to remember that we did not enter this career to be arrogant, but servants.

 

[eadysx]

Why would anyone resurrect a craptacular thread like this? 😕

For the same reason that people read it.

E-

 

[ambernikel]

For the same reason that people read it.

E-

That was good. Guilty as charged.

 

[gtleeee]

Yea, but all we can do is try to educate them. They ll come around some day. 👍

I strike my "*****ic" comment ....NRAI2001....Sorry...)

 

[Kubed]

For the same reason that people read it.

E-

Ha ... ya

 

[rpkall]

Wow.

I'm sorry this thread has gotten a little out of hand.

In any case, my advice: go to DO school in the US. You won't learn anything in the Carribean that they don't teach at DO schools, and you'll probably learn more about the art of doctoring at DO school, since they place such a high emphasis on patient contact and the patient-doctor relationship as therapeutic in and of itself. Not to mention the added emphasis on anatomy and physical exam/hands-on diagnostic skills. I would have been much happier at a DO school in my "region" than in the carribean. Especially since I like the primary care specialties.

You'll be a doctor either way. Since you, like me, seemed to have been overlooked by the Harvard and Yale admissions committees (an administrative mistake, I'm sure, albeit disappointingly annoying), you'll have to create those opportunities for competitive residencies for yourself--by working hard and doing well in your rotations and the boards, whether it's USMLE or COMLEX.

 

[NRAI2001]

I strike my "*****ic" comment ....NRAI2001....Sorry...)

Its ok, no hard feelings.

 

[alpha-o-pi]

Please save yourself some time, money, and frustration. I have been studying in the caribbean, and I am currently willing to forfeit all my classes to apply to a DO or US MD school. I made a quick decision that I truly regret, and I am paying for it now. I understand that EVERY school has its problems, but the crap in the caribbean is not so good. If trained properly, medicine is medicine. There may be several different philisophies, but our main goal is to care for our patients, and I have never seen "letters behind one's name" make a difference when it comes to the very core of medicine. Best wishes to you.

 

[ScOrPiO2983]

Please save yourself some time, money, and frustration. I have been studying in the caribbean, and I am currently willing to forfeit all my classes to apply to a DO or US MD school. I made a quick decision that I truly regret, and I am paying for it now. I understand that EVERY school has its problems, but the crap in the caribbean is not so good. If trained properly, medicine is medicine. There may be several different philisophies, but our main goal is to care for our patients, and I have never seen "letters behind one's name" make a difference when it comes to the very core of medicine. Best wishes to you.

out of curiosity...what school do u go to? I've got some friends at St. George's who seem to like it...

 

[unbiasedopinion]

I was not the one who made the statement that "Most D.O. students go into residency at smaller community hospitals"...You did. Why should I have to spend time validating a statement you made? I simply asked for any validation of what you wrote? Also, I did not say that IMG grads did or did not predominately do their residency in University institutions. What are you talking about? I have no idea if they do or don't. I also did not suggest that YOU considered D.O.s to be on a par with nurse practitioners. And finally, I make few posts on this forum, but let me get this straight...Are you implying that graduate physicians should not post on the premedical forums when making an inquery concerning a particular post or giving their 2 cents worth. If that is the case than a lot of graduate Docs are making fools of themselves on SDN. You obviously did not read my post. Read and than write please.

What is there to validate? DOs do, in fact, go into residencies at smaller hospitals. This is a fact. Why do DOs think that they are better than caribbean medical students? Do you guys not realize poorly you have to do in school and on the MCAT to become a DO? You don't like people making generalized statements like all MDs are better than DOs. Yet, you can claim that all DOs are better than caribbean medical students.

Check out this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2839900#post2839900


Why is it that DOs feel like they can put down caribbean medical students and then turn around and claim that MD=DO?

MD GPA 3.7 MCAT 30
DO GPA 3.5 MCAT 24

Is that the same??

 

[sunnyjohn]

DIE HORSE, DIE!

 

[lifelover]

"I have been studying in the caribbean, and I am currently willing to forfeit all my classes to apply to a DO or US MD school. I made a quick decision that I truly regret, and I am paying for it now"


Could you tell me what school you are going to?
I am planning on applying to both US MD and DO schools but also St. Georges and Saba because a 3.0 probably won't get me in here. But I know that if I go to the carib it will be tough and I'm ready to take it on if I have to. I was just wondering if you went to either of these schools and why you think it is so terrible?
Thanks in advance!

 

[novacek88]

but out in the west coast, most people (MD's included) still don't really know what a DO is. I ve talked to young and old MD's and they see DO's as something in the line as a Nurse Practioner. So I won't say that DO's get more respect than carribean grads.

As someone who grew up on the west coast and attended medical school on the west coast and had several interviews on the west coast, I can assure you the above is completely false and has no merit to it whatsoever. It should be stated that "NRAI2001" is not even in medical school. He is a reapplicant who is likely going to a Caribbean school although he expressed a desire to attend a DO school so you can see why he would have an incentive to put down DO schools. He was also at UCSF which is hostile to everyone including graduates of U.S. M.D. schools that lack name recognition. So of course, he is going to get the impression the west coast hates DO's.

I have proof to support my opinion. First look at SGU's matchlist. Look where most of their students match, it's on the east coast. Very few of their students match on the west coast. Ross is the same way. If you go offshore, just accept the fact that you will likely end up on the east coast.

Second, look where third year core IMG rotation sites are located? How many of them are on the west coast? Exactly! They are almost all on the East Coast particularly in NY/NJ. How many IMG's can do third year core rotations in the west? Things may have changed but Bakersfield was the only place in California where IMG's could rotate in the past. That's right ONE PLACE! Most IMG's rotate on the east coast which is why it's not suprising that most of them match in NY, NJ, Mass, CN and D.C. area.

Third, there are 5 D.O. schools on the west coast. With the number of graduates they have placed there along with the many hospitals with which DO students rotate there, to assert the west coast prefers IMG is pure baloney. No logic or facts support such an assessment.

The west coast is more anti-IMG than any place I have witnessed. They have no toleranace for IMG's. California is not like New York. They don't distinguish between SGU, Ross and AUC. It's not like New York in which they have worked with so many IMG's in the past that they can distinquish between schools and have a working relationship with certain schools like SGU. That's the east coast not the west coast. Los Angelas doesn't have a thousand IMG's doing third year rotations in various city hospitals only to accept them later as residents. Again, that's New York. You have the east coast and the west coast completely flipped. If you have any hope of doing residency on the west coast, attend a DO school and do your some of your core rotations on the west coast.

The East Coast is the only place that one could argue has a slight preference for IMG's than DO's because the nation's most academic programs are located there and those places tend to be very old school with their thinking. They tend to harbor anti-DO sentiment from the 70's and 80's. If I wanted to settle on the east coast, I would consider attending SGU over a DO school.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Uh, clearly you are misinformed.

Admission to osteopathic medical school is competitive. For the 2005 application cycle, the average MCAT scores were 7.96 verbal, 7.77 physical and 8.32 biology. The average overall
grade point average was 3.38 and the average science grade point average was 3.25. Generally, MCAT scores and grade point averages are slightly higher for matriculating students than scores reported for the overall applicant pool.

This is right off the website for DO's. Thoes are the average scores. yes they are lower than MD schools however, the school is the same. The content is the same. The result is the same. DO schools will always be superior to caribbean schools. Besides the fact that the residencies are done EVERYWHERE not just at small hospitals but also because they have a better program.

Lets be honest, everyone here knows that caribbean schools are the 3rd choice last resort to attain a goal. They are easier to get into and less regulated as well as cheaper. Noone chooses to go out of country to a professional school and expects to come back to the States.

Lets also not forget the various threads here about the difficulty that caribbean school students have had in getting residencies at all. As well as the difficulty getting clinical placements all through 3rd and 4th year. Moving month to month to new places.

So enough of you bashing DO's. The truth of the matter is they practice on par and 100% equally + manupulation to MD's. As someone in hospital, i can tell you they are respected equally. However, when a Soc is found to have gone to a caribbean med school people watch them closer for good reason.

What is there to validate? DOs do, in fact, go into residencies at smaller hospitals. This is a fact. Why do DOs think that they are better than caribbean medical students? Do you guys not realize poorly you have to do in school and on the MCAT to become a DO? You don't like people making generalized statements like all MDs are better than DOs. Yet, you can claim that all DOs are better than caribbean medical students.

Check out this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2839900#post2839900


Why is it that DOs feel like they can put down caribbean medical students and then turn around and claim that MD=DO?

MD GPA 3.7 MCAT 30
DO GPA 3.5 MCAT 24

Is that the same??

 

[mr.weirdscience]

I don't agree that a Caribbean school should be always be a third choice behind a D.O. school. For example, if my desire was to practice in an outpatient primary care setting such pediatrics, family medicine or internal medicine, what does it matter whether one goes to a D.O. school? In that scenario, I think it actually makes more sense to attend a foreign school. You don't need to match into reputable primary care residency if you want to practice outpatient medicine. IMG's have no trouble matching in average primary care residencies in any state. At least this person would have their M.D. and I think that having an M.D. is a slight advantage although it isn't as big of an advantage as many foreign grads make it out to be.

Pikeville is in Kentucky. That isn't the most liberal and contemporary of settings. I think I would actually be more comfortable living in St. Maarten than in some rural area in Kentucky. That goes for LECOM's surrounding too. First, I would be weary what type of student body exists at Pikeville. The composition of any school generally tends to represent the surrounding area. Schools in conservative areas of the country tend to have classes that are also conservative. If I'm from a large city on one of the coasts, I don't know that I would be comfortable going to school in a rural part of Kentucky especially if I was content with going into a field that wasn't competitive like primary care, pathology, and psychiatry.

And you can't say that all programs rank DO's higher than IMG's. That's not true. It's regionally and program dependent. Some programs do in fact rank St. George students ahead of D.O. students because that program has a history of working with St. George students. Other programs are very D.O. friendly and you will be able to tell just by looking at their list of residents and match statistics. I would say the majority still rank D.O.'s higher but it's not always the case.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

I don't agree that a Caribbean school should be always be a third choice behind a D.O. school. For example, if my desire was to practice in an outpatient primary care setting such pediatrics, family medicine or internal medicine, what does it matter whether one goes to a D.O. school? In that scenario, I think it actually makes more sense to attend a foreign school. You don't need to match into reputable primary care residency if you want to practice outpatient medicine. IMG's have no trouble matching in average primary care residencies in any state. At least this person would have their M.D. and I think that having an M.D. is a slight advantage although it isn't as big of an advantage as many foreign grads make it out to be.

Pikeville is in Kentucky. That isn't the most liberal and contemporary of settings. I think I would actually be more comfortable living in St. Maarten than in some rural area in Kentucky. That goes for LECOM's surrounding too. First, I would be weary what type of student body exists at Pikeville. The composition of any school generally tends to represent the surrounding area. Schools in conservative areas of the country tend to have classes that are also conservative. If I'm from a large city on one of the coasts, I don't know that I would be comfortable going to school in a rural part of Kentucky especially if I was content with going into a field that wasn't competitive like primary care, pathology, and psychiatry.

And you can't say that all programs rank DO's higher than IMG's. That's not true. It's regionally and program dependent. Some programs do in fact rank St. George students ahead of D.O. students because that program has a history of working with St. George students. Other programs are very D.O. friendly and you will be able to tell just by looking at their list of residents and match statistics. I would say the majority still rank D.O.'s higher but it's not always the case.

Mr. W

You make an excellent point there. It is totally true that any of the non-competitive residencies are not difficult to get into as an IMG. However, what i would suggest is that 70-80% of people who enter medical school with a plan to go into "X" residency change their mind before residency happens. After working in the hospital for years I think i want to do an ER residency. However, i do know many people who had the same experience as I and then changed midstream. Your clinical time could totally change your career path.

I would also suggest that 90% (or more) people who enter med school of anytype have absolutely no idea what they are getting into. They know little or nothing about medicine or the various paths that are avaliable. That being the case, it is not possible for them to head to a caribbean school with definitive plans to be a family Doc or internist as they simply dont have the experience to know what they want. So then they may run into an issue when they decide they want to do cardiology, radiology, EM, etc etc and find that the slots avaliable for IMG's in the USA are even more competitive than that avaliable for US students (based on sheer numbers of slots v people wanting them).

So while i do see your point, I think that only the person who 100% knows their path take it into consideration. As of today, 10 years in medicine, I have met all of 4 Docs who went into Med knowing exactly what they wanted and came out as that. Just my experience

 

[NRAI2001]

Uh, clearly you are misinformed.

Admission to osteopathic medical school is competitive. For the 2005 application cycle, the average MCAT scores were 7.96 verbal, 7.77 physical and 8.32 biology. The average overall
grade point average was 3.38 and the average science grade point average was 3.25. Generally, MCAT scores and grade point averages are slightly higher for matriculating students than scores reported for the overall applicant pool.

This is right off the website for DO's. Thoes are the average scores. yes they are lower than MD schools however, the school is the same. The content is the same. The result is the same. DO schools will always be superior to caribbean schools. Besides the fact that the residencies are done EVERYWHERE not just at small hospitals but also because they have a better program.

Lets be honest, everyone here knows that caribbean schools are the 3rd choice last resort to attain a goal. They are easier to get into and less regulated as well as cheaper. Noone chooses to go out of country to a professional school and expects to come back to the States.

Lets also not forget the various threads here about the difficulty that caribbean school students have had in getting residencies at all. As well as the difficulty getting clinical placements all through 3rd and 4th year. Moving month to month to new places.

So enough of you bashing DO's. The truth of the matter is they practice on par and 100% equally + manupulation to MD's. As someone in hospital, i can tell you they are respected equally. However, when a Soc is found to have gone to a caribbean med school people watch them closer for good reason.

That bag over ur head must be cutting off circulation to ur brain.

First u admit that DO schools have lower numbers than MD schools, and then u go on to say that this is besides the point bc DO teach the same things that Md schools teach and "the result is the same"

"...Thoes are the average scores. yes they are lower than MD schools however, the school is the same. The content is the same. The result is the same....."

If the avg stats are besides the point and in your words don't really matter for the "result", then shouldn't carrib. and DO schools hold the same footing.

You said that the content is the same. Dont carribean schools resemble an US Allopathic schools cirriculum more than do DO schools, since carribean schools are allopathic themselves and DO schools are OSTEOPATHIC????? Though they are similar, I would think that Carrib schools share a larger portion of their cirriculum(if not the entire) with american MD students.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

That bag over ur head must be cutting off circulation to ur brain.

First u admit that DO schools have lower numbers than MD schools, and then u go on to say that this is besides the point bc DO teach the same things that Md schools teach and "the result is the same"

"...Thoes are the average scores. yes they are lower than MD schools however, the school is the same. The content is the same. The result is the same....."

If the avg stats are besides the point and in your words don't really matter for the "result", then shouldn't carrib. and DO schools hold the same footing.

You said that the content is the same. Dont carribean schools resemble an US Allopathic schools cirriculum more than do DO schools, since carribean schools are allopathic themselves and DO schools are OSTEOPATHIC????? Though they are similar, I would think that Carrib schools share a larger portion of their cirriculum(if not the entire) with american MD students.

In short, NO.

Do you have experience working with DO's and MD's in practice or seeing how weak some of the IMG physicians are? Well I do. There is no doubt that the DO /MD USA route is identicle, however, there is no US regulation of caribbean schools so no guarentees. Moreover, the reason that all other phsyicians are called MD's is convention "Medical Doctor". It has nothing to do with allopathic ideals or education. Since I have been to other countries and so you know, that distinction only exists in the US.

The entrance averages are lower in DO schools for exactly one reason. Tradition. Most people (that would be 90% of people who goto med school) have either never heard of, or know anything about DO's. Popular culture has taught people about MD's only. ER, doogie howser MD, House MD, St Elsewhere ect ect etc. People dont know enough about DO's and therefore apply to MD. That is what changes the typical entrance scores of MD v DO. More people apply to MD schools, more MD schools, more exposure = Higher level of competition. No more no less. The education is identicle. I know, I work with them both and had this very discussion when i began to consider Med school. All of the DO's and MD's ive chatted with have suggested ANY DO school over caribbean schools (including 2 who were IMG's).

I am not here to make decisions for others. What I want to do is show people the options which I have already investigated. I would also suggest people considering this option to read some of the information on these web pages.

http://zoology.muohio.edu/Premed/foreign.html
http://college.georgetown.edu/programs/premed/handbook/foreign.html
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=203677&page=2

West Afr J Med. 2003 Jan-Mar;22(1):79-87.
Residency training in the United States: what foreign medical graduates should know.
Adebonojo SA, Mabogunje OA, Pezzella AT.

N Engl J Med. 1979 Jun 21;300(25):1414-7.
United States citizens in foreign medical schools and the future supply of physicians.
Stimmel B, Benenson TF.

Between 1973 and 1977, the number of United States citizens in foreign medical schools increased from 12,000 to 15,000, with Mexico and Italy responsible for training 55 per cent of these students. If all these students can successfully meet the requirements for entry into graduate training in the United States, their numbers, combined with the increasing size of entering classes in American medical schools, may exceed the number of positions presently available for first-year graduate training. Serious problems in the quality of education received in several new foreign medical schools must be addressed if these students are to enter the American medical system.

These are just a few things to read and consider to make the best decision for you. People who have had to goto caribbean med schools for one reason or another will always defend their school. It is important to know that these individuals, while potentiall incredible physicians, do not know the difference in training between those in US medical school v any other.

 

[unbiasedopinion]

Uh, clearly you are misinformed.

Admission to osteopathic medical school is competitive. For the 2005 application cycle, the average MCAT scores were 7.96 verbal, 7.77 physical and 8.32 biology. The average overall
grade point average was 3.38 and the average science grade point average was 3.25. Generally, MCAT scores and grade point averages are slightly higher for matriculating students than scores reported for the overall applicant pool.
.

Wow!! The scores are lower than I thought. How can be be different/inferior and be the same?

This is right off the website for DO's. Thoes are the average scores. yes they are lower than MD schools however, the school is the same. The content is the same. The result is the same. DO schools will always be superior to caribbean schools. Besides the fact that the residencies are done EVERYWHERE not just at small hospitals but also because they have a better program.

Large hospitals? Where? Like Downey hospital in California? I have never heard of that until I found out that that was a hospital to stay away from if you wanted to live (DO hospital).

Lets be honest, everyone here knows that caribbean schools are the 3rd choice last resort to attain a goal. They are easier to get into and less regulated as well as cheaper. Noone chooses to go out of country to a professional school and expects to come back to the States.

A 3rd choice implies that there is a 2nd choice. Since DO stats are lower than MD stats, I can assume that the 2nd choice would therefore be DO schools. If DO schools teach the same and are same, why would there be a difference in the general applicants' preference?

Lets also not forget the various threads here about the difficulty that caribbean school students have had in getting residencies at all. As well as the difficulty getting clinical placements all through 3rd and 4th year. Moving month to month to new places.

So enough of you bashing DO's. The truth of the matter is they practice on par and 100% equally + manupulation to MD's. As someone in hospital, i can tell you they are respected equally. However, when a Soc is found to have gone to a caribbean med school people watch them closer for good reason.

What about all the threads out there stating :

1. What is a DO?
2. Should I become a DO and have to live the rest of my life my DO title?
3. Can I get into residency as a DO?
4. I didn't get into any MD schools this year. Should I go to the DO school that accepted me or should I try again next year?

You know what I love the most? I love it when DOs say that they get treated no differently than MDs. Why would this question be asked if there wasn't a difference? Do DOs walk up to MDs and ask them "do you respect me even though I am a DO?" MDs talk to you like you are a normal person but then tell their MD collegues that you are only a DO.

 

[Shodddy18]

Wow!! The scores are lower than I thought. How can be be different/inferior and be the same?




Large hospitals? Where? Like Downey hospital in California? I have never heard of that until I found out that that was a hospital to stay away from if you wanted to live (DO hospital).



A 3rd choice implies that there is a 2nd choice. Since DO stats are lower than MD stats, I can assume that the 2nd choice would therefore be DO schools. If DO schools teach the same and are same, why would there be a difference in the general applicants' preference?



What about all the threads out there stating :

1. What is a DO?
2. Should I become a DO and have to live the rest of my life my DO title?
3. Can I get into residency as a DO?
4. I didn't get into any MD schools this year. Should I go to the DO school that accepted me or should I try again next year?

You know what I love the most? I love it when DOs say that they get treated no differently than MDs. Why would this question be asked if there wasn't a difference? Do DOs walk up to MDs and ask them "do you respect me even though I am a DO?" MDs talk to you like you are a normal person but then tell their MD collegues that you are only a DO.

If you would wash the cum out of your ears you might just realize how stupid you sound. Maybe people will listen to your oppinion once you get out of high school. Go away troll

 

[unbiasedopinion]

If you would wash the cum out of your ears you might just realize how stupid you sound. Maybe people will listen to your oppinion once you get out of high school. Go away troll

Nice comeback!!! You must have really put alot of thought into your argument. I hope that you don't hold the same level of composure when treating your patients in stressful situations. I apologize for hurting your feelings and rubbing salt into your wounds. Sorry you didn't have the grades or the MCAT scores to get into an MD school. But don't worry. I have been told by DOs that MDs treat them the same. 😉

 

[mr.weirdscience]

That bag over ur head must be cutting off circulation to ur brain.

First u admit that DO schools have lower numbers than MD schools, and then u go on to say that this is besides the point bc DO teach the same things that Md schools teach and "the result is the same"

"...Thoes are the average scores. yes they are lower than MD schools however, the school is the same. The content is the same. The result is the same....."

If the avg stats are besides the point and in your words don't really matter for the "result", then shouldn't carrib. and DO schools hold the same footing.

You said that the content is the same. Dont carribean schools resemble an US Allopathic schools cirriculum more than do DO schools, since carribean schools are allopathic themselves and DO schools are OSTEOPATHIC????? Though they are similar, I would think that Carrib schools share a larger portion of their cirriculum(if not the entire) with american MD students.

I think you make an excellent point but the disparity between the M.D. and D.O. entrance numbers isn't as great as it is between D.O. and Caribbean schools. Maybe if you compared St. George to the the average entrance statistics of all osteopathic schools, the disparity wouldn't be that significant. But then it would be interesting to compare St. George to the most competitive DO school; I'm sure the disparity in that example would be significant.

And the reporting of entrance statistics by these schools can be fudged. They don't adhere to an aacomas or amcas that reports the average statistics of each school. I don't believe Ross University publishes admission statistics at all so your best guess is good as anyone's. I personally have never heard of anyone being rejected from AUC or Ross.

 

[Shodddy18]

Nice comeback!!! You must have really put alot of thought into your argument. Instead of using facts, you use profanity. I hope that you don't hold the same level of composure when treating your patients in stressful situations. I apologize for hurting your feelings and rubbing salt into your wounds. Sorry you didn't have the grades or the MCAT scores to get into an MD school. But, don't worry, I have been told by DOs that MDs treat them the same. 😉

“Boo hoo, I'm a pre med troll with a napoleon complex and no life who is going to use well-articulated language to make the crap spewing from my mouth smell pretty.” If you do ever manage to get yourself into med school I hope your attitude changes! I just hope that your inevitable lessons in humility are not at the expense of your patient’s lives.

Not that my grades are any of your business, but im sure they were on par with anyone else in the Country. This may come as a shock to you, but some people make decisions based on factors other than the way others will judge them.

But back to my first response, you really do need to clean that man-jam out of your ears. Now go troll somewhere else. Away troll…

 

[Shodddy18]

I think its time for the moderators to close this craptacular thread down.

 

[unbiasedopinion]

“Boo hoo, I'm a pre med troll with a napoleon complex and no life who is going to use well-articulated language to make the crap spewing from my mouth smell pretty.” If you do ever manage to get yourself into med school I hope your attitude changes! I just hope that your inevitable lessons in humility are not at the expense of your patient’s lives.

Not that my grades are any of your business, but im sure they were on par with anyone else in the Country. This may come as a shock to you, but some people make decisions based on factors other than the way others will judge them.

But back to my first response, you really do need to clean that man-jam out of your ears. Now go troll somewhere else. Away troll…

There is a certain level of intelligence that it takes to comprehend certain things and to reason in a logical manner. Obviously, you fall below that threshold. I can certainly understand why you obviously didn't do well enough in school to become an MD.

1. If I were a premed student, why would I take the time out to defend MDs when I have yet to secure a position at an MD school?

2. I have yet to state anything that is false. Are DO stats equal to MD stats? NO.

3. If DO<MD, then the statement DO=MD is false

4. "Not that my grades are any of your business, but im sure they were on par with anyone else in the Country." On par with what? Are your grades on par with the general population of ******s or rejected MD applicants?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I think its time for the moderators to close this craptacular thread down.

yep, which is exactly what they did for the thread unbiasedopinion ruined in the regular osteopathic forum. unbiasedopinion is a troll, plain and simple. please, no one take any of his remarks seriously.

 

[dr.z]

yep, which is exactly what they did for the thread unbiasedopinion ruined in the regular osteopathic forum. unbiasedopinion is a troll, plain and simple. please, no one take any of his remarks seriously.

Yeah, that's the only thing he is good at.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

yep, which is exactly what they did for the thread unbiasedopinion ruined in the regular osteopathic forum. unbiasedopinion is a troll, plain and simple. please, no one take any of his remarks seriously.

Too true he clearly has no idea.

In anycase, this has gotten out of hand. If you want to learn more about the IMG v MD v DO issues i suggest you follow the links i posted or do a quick googles search. As well, feel free to contact me as I have worked with all 3 and talked with them abou their various opinion. I dont choose to goto DO school because of grade, its a choice based on what i WANT to do.

Lastly, the best thing to do is talk directly with a DO about their experiences. I know DO surgeons, rads, peds intensivists, EM's etc etc. There are no real hurdles anymore its all a matter of qualification and hard work.

I dont blame anyone from going the IMG route. If thats what you want, fill your boots, if it turns out thats the only way you can become a Doc and its what you want, go for it! I just think its important to realise what people are getting into.

Good luck to everyone!

 

[mr.weirdscience]

Although I personally feel that osteopathic schools are a better option than foreign schools, I can't blame the caribbean students for reacting in the manner that they have. If you were in their situation, wouldn't you defend your choice for why you attended a foreign school. None of us should expect them to come forth and say something along the lines of :"Yeah, DO school is a better option but I chose to attend AUC so I wouldn't have to explain what a DO is."

And I don't think many of the osteopathic students expressed reasons why one could possibly attend a foreign school. I feel the DO's have been more one-sided about this issue than the IMG's.

 

[NRAI2001]

Uh, clearly you are misinformed.

Admission to osteopathic medical school is competitive. For the 2005 application cycle, the average MCAT scores were 7.96 verbal, 7.77 physical and 8.32 biology. The average overall
grade point average was 3.38 and the average science grade point average was 3.25. Generally, MCAT scores and grade point averages are slightly higher for matriculating students than scores reported for the overall applicant pool.

This is right off the website for DO's. Thoes are the average scores. yes they are lower than MD schools however, the school is the same. The content is the same. The result is the same. DO schools will always be superior to caribbean schools. Besides the fact that the residencies are done EVERYWHERE not just at small hospitals but also because they have a better program.

Lets be honest, everyone here knows that caribbean schools are the 3rd choice last resort to attain a goal. They are easier to get into and less regulated as well as cheaper. Noone chooses to go out of country to a professional school and expects to come back to the States.

Lets also not forget the various threads here about the difficulty that caribbean school students have had in getting residencies at all. As well as the difficulty getting clinical placements all through 3rd and 4th year. Moving month to month to new places.

So enough of you bashing DO's. The truth of the matter is they practice on par and 100% equally + manupulation to MD's. As someone in hospital, i can tell you they are respected equally. However, when a Soc is found to have gone to a caribbean med school people watch them closer for good reason.

I just spanked u with ur own reasoning in my previous post.

Again, u say that DO and US MD are completey identical in their cirriculum(even more so than FMG allo) schools. How can u say this, do MD's learn manipulation? Do Md's spend 2 + years taking omm lab? If i were a DO i would find this completely offense. If i choose to go the DO route (which i may) i would go that route bc DO's emphasize different philosophies and take different approaches to treatment, not bc they completely identical to US mds.

If you said that DO's and US MD's are identical in practice, then this would be more believable, but to say that they are "100%" identical in their medical education is just plan dumb. Next time go with plastic over ur head, u get more air to the brain.

 

[unbiasedopinion]

Although I personally feel that osteopathic schools are a better option than foreign schools, I can't blame the caribbean students for reacting in the manner that they have. If you were in their situation, wouldn't you defend your choice for why you attended a foreign school. None of us should expect them to come forth and say something along the lines of :"Yeah, DO school is a better option but I chose to attend AUC so I wouldn't have to explain what a DO is."

And I don't think many of the osteopathic students expressed reasons why one could possibly attend a foreign school. I feel the DO's have been more one-sided about this issue than the IMG's.

I personally feel that only MDs are real doctors. However, I can't blame DO students for reacting in the manner that they have. If you were in their situation, wouldn't you defend your choice for why you attended a DO school? I would not expect for any of them to come forth and say something like "Yeah, I didn't get into an MD school and I only went to a DO school as a last resort. I know that MDs and DOs aren't the same because of the differences in the selection criteria. I would have been a nurse, paramedic, or x-ray technician right now had there not been DO schools. I know that DO schools are not on par with MD schools and never will be. I know that MDs look at me with disgust. However, they don't treat me that way. I ask them and they tell me they respect me. "

 

[NRAI2001]

Too true he clearly has no idea.

In anycase, this has gotten out of hand. If you want to learn more about the IMG v MD v DO issues i suggest you follow the links i posted or do a quick googles search. As well, feel free to contact me as I have worked with all 3 and talked with them abou their various opinion. I dont choose to goto DO school because of grade, its a choice based on what i WANT to do.

Lastly, the best thing to do is talk directly with a DO about their experiences. I know DO surgeons, rads, peds intensivists, EM's etc etc. There are no real hurdles anymore its all a matter of qualification and hard work.

I dont blame anyone from going the IMG route. If thats what you want, fill your boots, if it turns out thats the only way you can become a Doc and its what you want, go for it! I just think its important to realise what people are getting into.

Good luck to everyone!

If u choose to go to DO schools not bc of ur grades, then why? You claim that DO students and US md students have "100%" identical cirriculums???? You say u go bc its what u want, but wuts the difference? U don't even know what u want. U can't even properly define what u want.

To address your point about the differences: First of there is an organization that monitors foreign med schools, thats why not all of the carribean schools are accredited in every state. Second, the two clinical years that Carrib students complete are completed in the US along side US allo students.

Third, u can obtain almost any residency u wish from the carribean (maybe not at the exact location u may want), but a neurosurgery residency would be hard for anyone to get, even harvard med students.

http://sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Home/2005ResidencyAppointmentListBySpecialty.htm

http://sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/home/1997_2002ResidencyList.htm

including rads, peds, im, surgery, anesth....etc and most of these are at UNIVERSITY PROGRAMS, not at the small community hospitals that u suggest.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

I just spanked u with ur own reasoning in my previous post.

Again, u say that DO and US MD are completey identical in their cirriculum(even more so than FMG allo) schools. How can u say this, do MD's learn manipulation? Do Md's spend 2 + years taking omm lab? If i were a DO i would find this completely offense. If i choose to go the DO route (which i may) i would go that route bc DO's emphasize different philosophies and take different approaches to treatment, not bc they completely identical to US mds.

If you said that DO's and US MD's are identical in practice, then this would be more believable, but to say that they are "100%" identical in their medical education is just plan dumb. Next time go with plastic over ur head, u get more air to the brain.

NRAI 2001

No you didnt. MD & DO have identicle education except that DO's also get manipulation. Moreover, they learn holistically. I also WORK WITH THEM BOTH. You do not. Nor do you have any idea of the apparent differences. Your arguments didnt counter anything I said.

I Have been in the medical field working with Docs for 10 years. I have some idea as to what i am talking about, i even posted web sites for people to browse which back up exactly what i said.

I wont waste anymore time debating this with you as you have no idea what your talking about. You should consider looking into it a little deeper so you have a better understanding of medicine in general and med school itself.

Good luck on whatever route everyone chooses.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Mr. W

Well said I agree. I dont think this is often the case with DO schools as some suggest. I know many people who have chosen to go DO with excellent MCAT and GPA. Its just a choice left to the individual.

Although I personally feel that osteopathic schools are a better option than foreign schools, I can't blame the caribbean students for reacting in the manner that they have. If you were in their situation, wouldn't you defend your choice for why you attended a foreign school. None of us should expect them to come forth and say something along the lines of :"Yeah, DO school is a better option but I chose to attend AUC so I wouldn't have to explain what a DO is."

And I don't think many of the osteopathic students expressed reasons why one could possibly attend a foreign school. I feel the DO's have been more one-sided about this issue than the IMG's.

 

[NRAI2001]

NRAI 2001

No you didnt. MD & DO have identicle education except that DO's also get manipulation. Moreover, they learn holistically. I also WORK WITH THEM BOTH. You do not. Nor do you have any idea of the apparent differences. Your arguments didnt counter anything I said.

I Have been in the medical field working with Docs for 10 years. I have some idea as to what i am talking about, i even posted web sites for people to browse which back up exactly what i said.

I wont waste anymore time debating this with you as you have no idea what your talking about. You should consider looking into it a little deeper so you have a better understanding of medicine in general and med school itself.

Good luck on whatever route everyone chooses.

U didn't address a single point i made.

U said that FMG's only get residencies at community hospitals. I provided links to disprove that. You said ".....however, the school is the same. The content is the same. The result is the same. DO schools will always be superior to caribbean schools...Besides the fact that the residencies are done EVERYWHERE not just at small hospitals but also because they have a better program......"

U said that MD and DO educations are 100% identical, but u chose to go the DO route bc u wanted to and not bc of ur grades. If they are identical, then why do u want to go DO? You said "......I dont choose to goto DO school because of grade, its a choice based on what i WANT to do......"

Again You say u go bc its what u want, but wuts the difference? U don't even know what u want. U can't even properly define what u want. You didn't know what u wanted before u spent half of ur life getting ur 50 million degrees, and u still don't know what u really want now.

Why don't u address these points?

One final question, what are u hiding under that bag?

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

U didn't address a single point i made.

U said that FMG's only get residencies at community hospitals. I provided links to disprove that. You said ".....however, the school is the same. The content is the same. The result is the same. DO schools will always be superior to caribbean schools...Besides the fact that the residencies are done EVERYWHERE not just at small hospitals but also because they have a better program......"

U said that MD and DO educations are 100% identical, but u chose to go the DO route bc u wanted to and not bc of ur grades. If they are identical, then why do u want to go DO? You said "......I dont choose to goto DO school because of grade, its a choice based on what i WANT to do......"

Again You say u go bc its what u want, but wuts the difference? U don't even know what u want. U can't even properly define what u want. You didn't know what u wanted before u spent half of ur life getting ur 50 million degrees, and u still don't know what u really want now.

Why don't u address these points?

One final question, what are u hiding under that bag?

Yah gotta love that avatar eh? hehe

Ok seems we are having a constructive discussion now so sure i dont mind addressing them

FMG's do get residencies at many places but the most common are underserved areas. Unfortunately they are often highly competitive between FMG's themselves. It is much more difficult to get a residency as a FMG than it is as either an MD or DO. This being the case, the DO or MD from the USA will have better choice or residency and often a higher quality of residency. USA grads are always given preference over FMG's.

The reason I personally chose DO school has to do with philosophy. While i do believe you can be an MD and have the same holistic philosophy, i feel it is more ingrained in the education of the DO. I have also had many excellent experiences with DO's over the years working directly with them which has increased my interest in becomming one.

Your last point about "what I want" is.... well pointless. The truth of the matter is you dont know me. Im more than likely much older than you and far more experienced. Indefinitly so in the medical field. I have ALWAYS wanted to be in medicine. Started as a paramedic, moved up to Nurse, then Flight Nurse and the next logical step is physician. In fact, i have always known that I wanted to be a Doc. I just wasent ready until now.

Gotta love the flaming bag head 😉

 

[NRAI2001]

Yah gotta love that avatar eh? hehe

Ok seems we are having a constructive discussion now so sure i dont mind addressing them

FMG's do get residencies at many places but the most common are underserved areas. Unfortunately they are often highly competitive between FMG's themselves. It is much more difficult to get a residency as a FMG than it is as either an MD or DO. This being the case, the DO or MD from the USA will have better choice or residency and often a higher quality of residency. USA grads are always given preference over FMG's.

"........The result is the same. DO schools will always be superior to caribbean schools...Besides the fact that the residencies are done EVERYWHERE not just at small hospitals but also because they have a better program......"

Did u even check out the links i provided? I didn't know that schools like thesee are considered small, undesirable community hospitals (SGU MATCH LIST 2005):
ANESTHESIOLOGY

Drexel Univ College of Medicine (MCP Hahnemann)
Duke University Hospital Program
LAC-King/Drew Medical Center
Penn State University College of Med. Program
Synergy Medical Education Alliance/Michigan State Univ.
West Virginia University School of Medicine

FAMILY PRACTICE
UCSF-Fresno Medical Education Program
Univ of North Dakota School of Medicine and Health Sciences
University of Connecticut School of Medicine
University of Maryland Medical System
University of Massachusetts Medical School
University of New Mexico School of Medicine
University of Oklahoma College of Medicine
USC University Hospital

INTERNAL MEDICINE
Brookdale University Hospital Medical Center
Cooper Hospital-University Medical Center
Drexel Univ College of Medicine (MCP Hahnemann)
Eastern Virginia Medical School
Georgetown University Medical Center
Graduate Hospital (Tenet Health System)
Indiana University School of Medicine
Kaiser Permanente Medical Center (Oakland)
Kaiser Permanente Medical Center (Santa Clara)
LAC-King/Drew Medical Center
Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center
Louisiana State University School of Medicine
LSU Medical Center-University Hospital
New York Hospital Medical Center of Queens
New York Medical College
Southern Illinois University School of Medicine
Staten Island University Hospital
SUNY Downstate Medical Center
SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn
SUNY Upstate Medical University
Thomas Jefferson University Hospital
UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School
UMDNJ-University Hospital
Univ of Connecticut Health Center/John Dempsey Hospital
University Hospital-SUNY at Stony Brook
University of Arizona College of Medicine
University of Connecticut School of Medicine
University of Florida College of Medicine at Jacksonville
University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics
University of Louisville School of Medicine
University of Massachusetts Medical School
University of Nevada School of Medicine
University of Oklahoma College of Medicine
University of Oklahoma College of Medicine-Tulsa
University of South Florida College of Medicine
University of Utah Medical Center
University of Virginia Medical Center
West Virginia University Hospitals

INTERNAL/PEDIATIC
University Hospital-SUNY at Stony Brook
University of Mississippi Medical Center
University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center
University of Texas Medical Branch Hospitals

OBYGN
Bridgeport Hospital/Yale University
Drexel Univ College of Medicine (MCP Hahnemann)
Grand Rapids Medical Education and Research Center
Nassau University Medical Center
Tulane University School of Medicine
University of Tennessee College of Medicine
University of Tennessee College of Medicine-Chattanooga

PEDIATRICS
St Louis University School of Medicine
SUNY at Buffalo Grad Medical-Dental Education Consortium
SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn
Tulane University School of Medicine
UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School
UMDNJ-University Hospital
University Hospital-SUNY at Stony Brook
University Hospital-SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn
University Hospital-SUNY Health Science Center at Syracuse
University of Louisville School of Medicine
University of Nevada School of Medicine
University of South Alabama Medical Center
University of South Florida College of Medicine

PSYCHIATRY
University Hospital-SUNY at Stony Brook
University of Connecticut School of Medicine
University of Hawaii John A Burns School of Medicine
University of Utah Medical Center

SURGERY
Mayo Graduate School of Medicine-Mayo Foundation
Monmouth Medical Center
Mount Sinai School of Medicine
New York Medical College
New York Methodist Hospital
North Shore University Hospital
Seton Hall University School of Graduate Medical Education
St Vincent's Hospital and Medical Center of New York
SUNY at Buffalo Grad Medical-Dental Education Consortium
UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School
UMDNJ-University Hospital
University Hospital-SUNY at Stony Brook
University of California (San Diego) Medical Center
University of New Mexico School of Medicine
USC University Hospital
Wayne State University/Detroit Medical Center
Western Reserve Care System/NEOUCOM
York Hospital