Is it true?

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LastDance

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Is it true, that if a D.O student who graduates and does an MD residency, they cannot get licensed to practice in certain states? Thanks for the input, my gut feeling is this is untrue, because it doesn't make much sense...but just wanted to make sure...thanks
 
i know that D.O.'s cannot practice in every state, im not sure of the exact ones where they can practice but i know CA and NJ are two of them.
 
i think DOs can practice in all 50 states and it doesn't matter which residency they do (MD or DO). DOs can also practice in some countries outside the US (i think the UK is one of theM)
 
LOL...D.O.'s absolutely CAN practice in every state.

What you may have heard is that their are 5 states that require a rotating internship to be done before starting residency. This requirement is, however, getting easier to fill as some new resolutions passed seem to make AOA approval of first year of residency easier to come by.

Mr. Doc...if you do not know what you are talking about, don't bother to post.
 
DOs can practice in any state. I think it is only Louisiana that requires DOs to pass the USMLE to practice but they can practice as fully licensed physicians. In other states you can practice going to a DO or MD residency program.
 
hah 2 people beat me 2 it while i was typing!
 
LastDance said:
Is it true, that if a D.O student who graduates and does an MD residency, they cannot get licensed to practice in certain states? Thanks for the input, my gut feeling is this is untrue, because it doesn't make much sense...but just wanted to make sure...thanks
Click to expand...

maybe you are referring to the golden 5? Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia require osteo. physicians to complete an AOA approved internship year to be licensed in those states. see this link for more info:
https://www.do-online.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_faq1

DO's can definitely practice in all 50 states with full and complete practice rights, just those 5 require that AOA intern year. Many MD residency programs can have that first year approved by the AOA anyway. 🙂
 
cbenedic said:
maybe you are referring to the golden 5? Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia require osteo. physicians to complete an AOA approved internship year to be licensed in those states. see this link for more info:
https://www.do-online.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_faq1

DO's can definitely practice in all 50 states with full and complete practice rights, just those 5 require that AOA intern year. Many MD residency programs can have that first year approved by the AOA anyway. 🙂
Click to expand...

👍

As a general note, no more need to show Mr_Doc that he was misinformed. Two people have already.
 
Mr_Doc said:
i know that D.O.'s cannot practice in every state, im not sure of the exact ones where they can practice but i know CA and NJ are two of them.
Click to expand...

i think he was saying nj and cali were two where DO's definitly CAN practice. but agreed, don't post if you're not 100% sure. that would probably be why i don't usually answer any posting questions, unless i'm positive i know the answer 😉
 
LastDance said:
Is it true, that if a D.O student who graduates and does an MD residency, they cannot get licensed to practice in certain states? Thanks for the input, my gut feeling is this is untrue, because it doesn't make much sense...but just wanted to make sure...thanks
Click to expand...


No. You can practice in all 50 states - however you are going to have a very hard time in Ohio, Michigan, West Virginia, Pennsylvannia, and Florida.

In these states, the AOA is very strong. Unless you are able to aquire Resolution 42 by the licensing agency, you will not be able to practice at any osteopathic hospital or institution.

You will be effectively exhiled to the allopathic world of medicine in these five states should you decide to pursue an AGCME residency without an AOA TRI or select an AOA residency.

Besides those 5 states you can do as you please. Unfortunately, there are a lot of AOA residencies and hospitals in those 5 states combined. Furthermore, if you pursue an AGCME residency, you cannot become a PD or have any affective voice within the AOA.
 
premed2007 said:
DOs can practice in any state. I think it is only Louisiana that requires DOs to pass the USMLE to practice but they can practice as fully licensed physicians. In other states you can practice going to a DO or MD residency program.
Click to expand...

That's not even the case anymore. It was covered in another thread just recently. Louisiana passed a law (2 years ago maybe) stating that the COMLEX is equivalent to the USMLE.
 
It'sElectric said:
That's not even the case anymore. It was covered in another thread just recently. Louisiana passed a law (2 years ago maybe) stating that the COMLEX is equivalent to the USMLE.
Click to expand...

Ok then I stand corrected, thanks.
 
What precisely is the point of this rotating internship? It seems (from what I've seen) to be nothing more than a repeat of the MSIV rotations, which is a waste of time for anyone planning to specialize. It's exactly this type of bull**** that makes me choose an allopathic program over an osteopathic one, all other choices being equal. The AOA needs to shut up and get out of the way of the final aspects of mainstreaming of osteopathic medicine (primarily in the form of getting rid of the cranial quacks) and not malign those of us who choose to attend an allopathic residency.
 
CatsandCradles said:


No. You can practice in all 50 states - however you are going to have a very hard time in Ohio, Michigan, West Virginia, Pennsylvannia, and Florida.

In these states, the AOA is very strong. Unless you are able to aquire Resolution 42 by the licensing agency, you will not be able to practice at any osteopathic hospital or institution.

You will be effectively exhiled to the allopathic world of medicine in these five states should you decide to pursue an AGCME residency without an AOA TRI or select an AOA residency.

Besides those 5 states you can do as you please. Unfortunately, there are a lot of AOA residencies and hospitals in those 5 states combined. Furthermore, if you pursue an AGCME residency, you cannot become a PD or have any affective voice within the AOA.
Click to expand...

So if you went to DO school in Florida and went to an allopathic residency, then you wouldnt need that extra year of internship or that resolution 42? What is the reasoning for having that extra hurdle in those 5 states?
 
DropkickMurphy said:
What precisely is the point of this rotating internship? It seems (from what I've seen) to be nothing more than a repeat of the MSIV rotations, which is a waste of time for anyone planning to specialize. It's exactly this type of bull**** that makes me choose an allopathic program over an osteopathic one, all other choices being equal. The AOA needs to shut up and get out of the way of the final aspects of mainstreaming of osteopathic medicine (primarily in the form of getting rid of the cranial quacks) and not malign those of us who choose to attend an allopathic residency.
Click to expand...
The rotating internship is not bs, it is not a repeat of MSIV, and it is definitely not a waste of time. It is an opportunity to pick up more skills before specializing, and to make sure you are not one of those specialists that is so into your specialty that you are ******ed when it comes to anything outside your niche. You ought to change your attitude about this, and consider how it will benefit you and your future patients rather than your perception that they're out to get you.
 
jkhamlin said:
The rotating internship is not bs, it is not a repeat of MSIV, and it is definitely not a waste of time. It is an opportunity to pick up more skills before specializing, and to make sure you are not one of those specialists that is so into your specialty that you are ******ed when it comes to anything outside your niche. You ought to change your attitude about this, and consider how it will benefit you and your future patients rather than your perception that they're out to get you.
Click to expand...

This is such a typical pre-med attitude. If you do not happen to get Resolution 42 for your internship, you are effectively adding another year to your residency which equals LOSING a full years salary as a practicing physician.

You can say all you want about helping patients but you might begin to think differently when you realize that you will most likely already be $150K-220K in debt at that point. You might also change your views a little when you see how the AOA continues to blatantly ignore the opinions of its future physicians & leaders.
 
ok..so if i graduate from a DO med school and do an MD residency ( WITHOUT approval from AOA for that Resolution 42) then i CANNOT practice in these 5 states AT ALL?? or is it that i can still practice in some capacity?? still kinda confused... thanks for clearing it up
 
LastDance said:
ok..so if i graduate from a DO med school and do an MD residency ( WITHOUT approval from AOA for that Resolution 42) then i CANNOT practice in these 5 states AT ALL?? or is it that i can still practice in some capacity?? still kinda confused... thanks for clearing it up
Click to expand...

There must be a lot of newbies in the pre-osteo thread today, because this topic has been re-hashed nearly a 1000 times. I've already heard a couple times that this little hurdle is slowly being torn down as it is. Search around the old threads, and you'll find many answers to all of your questions.
 
jkhamlin said:
The rotating internship is not bs, it is not a repeat of MSIV, and it is definitely not a waste of time. It is an opportunity to pick up more skills before specializing, and to make sure you are not one of those specialists that is so into your specialty that you are ******ed when it comes to anything outside your niche. You ought to change your attitude about this, and consider how it will benefit you and your future patients rather than your perception that they're out to get you.
Click to expand...
They aren't "out to get us" but they sure do manage to stipulate some really stupid regulations. Trust me....I'm going into emergency medicine and most likely critical care. If I don't pick up the skills I need in an allopathic EM residency and CCM fellowship, them I think there might be a problem with all the MD grads who don't have to do this rotation? Do you see now see the logical fallacy I recognize in your reasoning that this helps you learn needed skills? Or do you think that DO grads need an extra year by virtue of their education? Apparently some people in the AOA think so or they wouldn't use the reasoning you seem to follow......

By the way, I don't care if (for example) my neurologist knows urology really well......I want someone who is damn good at their part of the body. If I need my prostate checked, I wouldn't have him do it any how.....
 
This whole thread is making me dizzy...


1. DO's have full practice rights in all 50 US states
2. DO's have full practice rights in many other countries
3. DO's can complete an allopathic residency and gain full practice rights
4. DOs who wish to practice in PA, OK, FL, WV or MI must do one of the following: A) Complete an approved AOA residency (internship usually included); B) Complete an approved AOA internship + residency (DO or MD); C) Complete an approved ACGME residency and petition the AOA for full licensure
 
does anyone know if DO's can practice in canada?
 
MT4life said:
does anyone know if DO's can practice in canada?
Click to expand...

Practice rights are determined by the province.

Last I saw it was 50/50...some provinces allowed full practice rights while others only allowed DOs to practice manipulative medicine.

Your best bet would be to contact the appropriate province through their health department.

Maybe start here: http://canada.gc.ca/main_e.html
 
jkhamlin said:
The rotating internship is not bs, it is not a repeat of MSIV, and it is definitely not a waste of time. It is an opportunity to pick up more skills before specializing, and to make sure you are not one of those specialists that is so into your specialty that you are ******ed when it comes to anything outside your niche. You ought to change your attitude about this, and consider how it will benefit you and your future patients rather than your perception that they're out to get you.
Click to expand...

OK, so why are our MD counterparts completely able to do without it? Is it your impression that we somehow become better physicians than them by doing the rotating internship?

I really don't want to start a fight. I just think that your post is a little bit of an exaggeration. It is a change in perspective that is refreshing from dropkick's, yet I am not sure I can 100-percent buy into it.
 
Krazykritter said:
You can say all you want about helping patients but you might begin to think differently when you realize that you will most likely already be $150K-220K in debt at that point. You might also change your views a little when you see how the AOA continues to blatantly ignore the opinions of its future physicians & leaders.
Click to expand...

Now there's a typical premed attitude.

If you can only think in terms of dollars and cents, then consider this: The more skills you pick up in the supposed extension of your residency, the more you can bill patients for. The more skills you have the more money you make.
 
I think there is some confusion surrounding the TRI (traditional rotating internship).

First of all, almost every Allopathic residency has in internship or internship-like year as the first year in their program. You will work in several different areas of medicine regardless of your specialty. A noted exception to this is anesthesia, but in most other specialties your PGY1 year is, for all intents and purposes, an internship.

Osteopathic programs also have the first year as an internship year. Same deal as above. Again, anesthesia being the exception.

So DOs who have to complete the internship year thus ADDING a year are as follows:

- Graduates who are going to be entering an ACGME residency who want to practice in WV, FL, OK, PA and MI and whose PGY1 year of that program is not accepted by the AOA as qualifying for the internship, or they petition the AOA and the PGY1 year of their program is denied as acceptable



Those who DO NOT have to do the internship & add a year:

- Graduates entering AOA or dually accredited residencies (first year counts as internship)
- Graduates entering an ACGME residency who do not intend to practice in PA, MI, WV, MI, OK
- Graduates entering an ACGME residency who have petitioned the AOA and had their internship approved
- Graduates entering ACGME or AOA anesthesia spots (CA1-CA3) who do their PGY1 year as an AOA TRI


When you ask why the TRI is still a requirement you get a number of reasons but the biggest that I have come across when speaking to AOA and POMA (Pennsylvania Osteopathic Medicine Association) leadership are:

1. Encouraging continued osteopathic training
2. Support of osteopathic post-grad programs
3. Producing a better physician


You can't argue with the reasoning or logic, but perhaps the implementation is what is flawed.

Will the TRI ever go away? Don't know. Not in the immediate future.

It's not as much of a hurdle as people make it out to be. I think there is a great deal of confusion surrounding the internship requirement so people throw their hands up in frustration and never look back.
 
Krazykritter said:
This is such a typical pre-med attitude. If you do not happen to get Resolution 42 for your internship, you are effectively adding another year to your residency which equals LOSING a full years salary as a practicing physician.
Click to expand...

"Losing" one year over the course of a 30+ year career.

I doubt your loans will pay off that much quicker.

Do you know what a first year physician right out of residency makes?

Probably not if you think that its money enough to be upset about.

Give me a break. 🙄
 
DropkickMurphy said:
They aren't "out to get us" but they sure do manage to stipulate some really stupid regulations. Trust me....I'm going into emergency medicine and most likely critical care. If I don't pick up the skills I need in an allopathic EM residency and CCM fellowship, them I think there might be a problem with all the MD grads who don't have to do this rotation? Do you see now see the logical fallacy I recognize in your reasoning that this helps you learn needed skills? Or do you think that DO grads need an extra year by virtue of their education? Apparently some people in the AOA think so or they wouldn't use the reasoning you seem to follow......

By the way, I don't care if (for example) my neurologist knows urology really well......I want someone who is damn good at their part of the body. If I need my prostate checked, I wouldn't have him do it any how.....
Click to expand...
You apparently don't understand Osteopathic medicine. Please do everyone a favor and withdraw your DO school apps so someone who appreciates the difference can have less competition for DO school. It sounds like you are only interested in MD schools as that is all you talk about in this forum.
 
drmax said:
OK, so why are our MD counterparts completely able to do without it? Is it your impression that we somehow become better physicians than them by doing the rotating internship?
Click to expand...

More skills that can help your patients (or make you more money, for those who can only see things this way) are a very good measure of being a "better physician."
 
drmax said:
Is it your impression that we somehow become better physicians than them by doing the rotating internship?
Click to expand...

Yes.

I dont think its the type of internship that makes you a better physician but the additional year of BEING an intern.

Being in PA I know many people who have done the internship year.

Not one of them ever looks back and says they arent better for it. Especially when they enter an ACGME residency where their first year in that program is another internship...and they are effectively a PGY2 with a year under their belt.

Also when applying for these more competitive ACGME spots you are a PGY1 applying up against MS4s. Many allopathic hospitals offer the AOA TRI.

Who do you think has a leg up? The PGY1 who is doing the AOA TRI in that hospital and already familiar with how things run there or the MS4?

Who do you think stands out during the first year of the ACGME program? The DO who has been-there-done-that or the others?

People complain about "missing a years worth of attending salary" which, in the end, costs you about $50,000 over a 30 year career. But they fail to see the built in benefits.

Also, the people who complain the most about the internship are the people who:
1. Won't do it anyway
2. Don't know anyone who has done it
3. Aren't familiar with the TRI programs

Its just something else to bitch about.
 
jkhamlin said:
You apparently don't understand Osteopathic medicine. Please do everyone a favor and withdraw your DO school apps so someone who appreciates the difference can have less competition for DO school. It sounds like you are only interested in MD schools as that is all you talk about in this forum.
Click to expand...
Actually I'm interested in several osteopathic programs because of location. I don't see any differences between them and the allopathic programs except the OMM and maybe having to do another year of residency because of them. I'm only interested in being a doctor, practicing competent evidence based medicine. The "understanding" osteopathic medicine crap you spout off about....I don't care. Once I graduate, I'll practice the same regardless of my degree.

BTW, the day I make career decisions based upon what you say, will be the day I have a tag on my toe. 👎 You can kiss my ass.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
Actually I'm interested in several osteopathic programs because of location. I don't see any differences between them and the allopathic programs except the OMM and maybe having to do another year of residency because of them. I'm only interested in being a doctor, practicing competent evidence based medicine. The "understanding" osteopathic medicine crap you spout off about....I don't care. Once I graduate, I'll practice the same regardless of my degree.

BTW, the day I make career decisions based upon what you say, will be the day I have a tag on my toe. 👎 You can kiss my ass.
Click to expand...

:meanie:
 
DropkickMurphy said:
Actually I'm interested in several osteopathic programs because of location. I don't see any differences between them and the allopathic programs except the OMM and maybe having to do another year of residency because of them. I'm only interested in being a doctor, practicing competent evidence based medicine. The "understanding" osteopathic medicine crap you spout off about....I don't care. Once I graduate, I'll practice the same regardless of my degree.

BTW, the day I make career decisions based upon what you say, will be the day I have a tag on my toe. 👎 You can kiss my ass.
Click to expand...
do i hear the sound of puckering? 😛
 
DropkickMurphy said:
Actually I'm interested in several osteopathic programs because of location. I don't see any differences between them and the allopathic programs except the OMM and maybe having to do another year of residency because of them. I'm only interested in being a doctor, practicing competent evidence based medicine. The "understanding" osteopathic medicine crap you spout off about....I don't care. Once I graduate, I'll practice the same regardless of my degree.

BTW, the day I make career decisions based upon what you say, will be the day I have a tag on my toe. 👎 You can kiss my ass.
Click to expand...

Here's hoping you don't get in. 🙄 Save a seat for someone who will be a good doctor.
 
ugh, i can't stand all the negativity that has been going on in here!! no one has to agree with anyone else, but i don't know why people in pre-DO have gotten so nasty lately (i'm not talking just this thread).

i know we're all stressed with finals, and the application process, but don't forget about karma. what goes around comes around...

plus its holiday season!! what happened to being nice?!?

good luck to everyone on finals and applications :luck: i need to go study..and write a paper! 🙂
 
jkhamlin said:
Here's hoping you don't get in. 🙄 Save a seat for someone who will be a good doctor.
Click to expand...
That's funny.....because I have a faculty member at KCOM whom I've known for several years now who said I would make a GREAT doc (his son is a DO that I used to work with). I think he (and the other DO's I've worked with) might be an even better judge of my qualifications for medical school than your esteemed self as what? An MSI? :laugh: But thanks for giving me a good laugh. Merry Christmas! 😉
 
DropkickMurphy said:
That's funny.....because I have a faculty member at KCOM whom I've known for several years now who said I would make a GREAT doc (his son is a DO that I used to work with). I think he (and the other DO's I've worked with) might be an even better judge of my qualifications for medical school than your esteemed self as what? An MSI? :laugh: But thanks for giving me a good laugh. Merry Christmas! 😉
Click to expand...

Where are you in the application process?
 
It sort of blows my mind how many smart people can be so ignorant about things that are so relevant to them and their future careers. If the AAMC decided tommorow to call allopathic graduates AG's instead of MD's, it would be as arbitrary as being a DO. DO's are the exact same thing as MD's with the exception of some additional (yes more) coursework and training. I understand why a portion of the general public doesn't quite get this yet, but I'd personally expect more from people interested in the field.

....I heard they can even prescribe medicine in some places!
 
Chrissy said:
....I heard they can even prescribe medicine in some places!
Click to expand...

Wow! You're kidding, arent' you? That would be a great supplement to the leeches, blood letting, and massage therapy. Do you know in what states they can prescribe medicine???
 
JPHazelton said:
Yes.

I dont think its the type of internship that makes you a better physician but the additional year of BEING an intern.

Being in PA I know many people who have done the internship year.

Not one of them ever looks back and says they arent better for it. Especially when they enter an ACGME residency where their first year in that program is another internship...and they are effectively a PGY2 with a year under their belt.

Also when applying for these more competitive ACGME spots you are a PGY1 applying up against MS4s. Many allopathic hospitals offer the AOA TRI.

Who do you think has a leg up? The PGY1 who is doing the AOA TRI in that hospital and already familiar with how things run there or the MS4?

Who do you think stands out during the first year of the ACGME program? The DO who has been-there-done-that or the others?

People complain about "missing a years worth of attending salary" which, in the end, costs you about $50,000 over a 30 year career. But they fail to see the built in benefits.

Also, the people who complain the most about the internship are the people who:
1. Won't do it anyway
2. Don't know anyone who has done it
3. Aren't familiar with the TRI programs
Its just something else to bitch about.
Click to expand...

I definitely fall into number 3 on that list. I was actually just asking. Looking back I guess I sounded like I had an attitude. To the contrary, I was actually asking if you guys thought it helped.

Thanks for the thorough response. I try not to pretend like I know what's better or worse this early in my pre-medical/medical career.

I am all for being better-prepared... 👍
 
Chrissy said:
It sort of blows my mind how many smart people can be so ignorant about things that are so relevant to them and their future careers. If the AAMC decided tommorow to call allopathic graduates AG's instead of MD's, it would be as arbitrary as being a DO. DO's are the exact same thing as MD's with the exception of some additional (yes more) coursework and training. I understand why a portion of the general public doesn't quite get this yet, but I'd personally expect more from people interested in the field.

....I heard they can even prescribe medicine in some places!
Click to expand...

Thank You:clap: 👍 It is as simple as that.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
BTW, the day I make career decisions based upon what you say, will be the day I have a tag on my toe. 👎 You can kiss my ass.
Click to expand...

While I was discouraged by what you said up to this point about not practicing any different as a DO or MD, I understood and wasn't upset bc many DOs have that mentality, however unfortunate.

However, when you said the above quoted sentence, I was rather surprised at what the discussion degenerated into... Please don't try to entice flame wars, it just turns ugly and then everyone has to take sides...blah. I'm getting sort of sick of it and turned off to this forum in general.

[preach]

Do we future doctors of America have nothing to do with our time except bicker amongst ourselves? 👎

[/preach]
 
drmax said:
While I was discouraged by what you said up to this point about not practicing any different as a DO or MD, I understood and wasn't upset bc many DOs have that mentality, however unfortunate.

However, when you said the above quoted sentence, I was rather surprised at what the discussion degenerated into... Please don't try to entice flame wars, it just turns ugly and then everyone has to take sides...blah. I'm getting sort of sick of it and turned off to this forum in general.

[preach]

Do we future doctors of America have nothing to do with our time except bicker amongst ourselves? 👎

[/preach]
Click to expand...
I wasn't trying to entice a flame war. If I wanted to do that, I would have actually maligned DO's as inferior (which I don't believe them to be).

Why is it disappointing that I don't plan to practice any differently? The job is the same, the end goal is the same.....what does it matter if I don't believe in all the mumbo jumbo about holistic theory, etc and don't plan on using OMM (kind of hard to do that in emergency or critical care medicine)?
 
DropkickMurphy said:
I wasn't trying to entice a flame war. If I wanted to do that, I would have actually maligned DO's as inferior (which I don't believe them to be).

Why is it disappointing that I don't plan to practice any differently? The job is the same, the end goal is the same.....what does it matter if I don't believe in all the mumbo jumbo about holistic theory, etc and don't plan on using OMM (kind of hard to do that in emergency or critical care medicine)?
Click to expand...

I'm sure that if you have individuals come in with some sort of muscular injury from a fall or accident, it could be handy in some form or another.

I wouldn't necessarily call holistic theory "mumbo jumbo" although it should be taken in stride. If you are a subspecialist it doesn't mean the same thing as if you are a family physician, but it can still be useful... getting to know the patient and their background can be important for environmental factors of any illness. There is no disputing that.

But I agree completely, all of the osteopathic theory must be taken for what it's worth... the same as any belief system. Use what you can and discard the rest... the end goal should always be to use teh maximum amount of effective tools at our disposal. If you make comments like "I will practice the same thing whether I am a MD or DO" that leads me to believe that you may not even consider OMM from the outset which could possibly mean that your endgoal isn't to use all means necessary. Our knowledge of biomedicine and psychological determinants are growing everyday... it is naive and foolish to believe that the current medical model is all-encompassing which is why it is important and necessary to keep an open, yet centered and scientific, mindset.

I don't think you meant to berate DOs, btw. I was just concerned about your generalization.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
(kind of hard to do that in emergency or critical care medicine)?
Click to expand...

I would disagree. Theres been some interesting work and reading on SVT as well as on VAP.
 
JPHazelton said:
I would disagree. Theres been some interesting work and reading on SVT as well as on VAP.
Click to expand...
I would think that vagal maneuvers/adenosine and good infection control program respectively would be much more appropriate. I don't see why there is a need to try to apply OMM to everything when standard approachs work just as well.
 
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