Psychopharmacology/Advanced Practice Psychology

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Answering your question is a little bit easier said than done. To give you a little perspective, I live in Louisiana and I'm going to be starting graduate school in Clinical Psychology next year. Currently, I'm a 4th year undergraduate student of psychology.

Rx rights for Psychologists have been available since 2004 here in Louisiana. Recently, the law was expanded to allow for Advanced Practice. This means that after three years and x number of patient treatments, you can begin to prescribe without first consulting with an M.D. You are still required to copy them your records, but that is the only requirement. Telephone consultation is also unnecessary. In addition, you are also given the right to order laboratory tests and interpret them accordingly.

Even though all of this is the case, there are still only a couple of handfuls of psychologists who prescribe. Thus, it would be hard to provide hard salary figures. I can say, from having spoken with Rx Psychologists before, is that you are able to bill higher rates on insurance. The rates are comparable to that of a Psychiatrist. You can also limit your practice to medicine only, if you choose. Essentially, you can spent your entire day doing medicine checks limited to psychotropic medications.

I know of instances where local community physicians are referring their psychotropic medicine cases to an M.P. for combined medicine management and therapy. They feel there is less chance of addiction and that the patient will follow through with his treatment.

Hope that helps.:)

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Answering your question is a little bit easier said than done. To give you a little perspective, I live in Louisiana and I'm going to be starting graduate school in Clinical Psychology next year. Currently, I'm a 4th year undergraduate student of psychology.

Rx rights for Psychologists have been available since 2004 here in Louisiana. Recently, the law was expanded to allow for Advanced Practice. This means that after three years and x number of patient treatments, you can begin to prescribe without first consulting with an M.D. You are still required to copy them your records, but that is the only requirement. Telephone consultation is also unnecessary. In addition, you are also given the right to order laboratory tests and interpret them accordingly.

Even though all of this is the case, there are still only a couple of handfuls of psychologists who prescribe. Thus, it would be hard to provide hard salary figures. I can say, from having spoken with Rx Psychologists before, is that you are able to bill higher rates on insurance. The rates are comparable to that of a Psychiatrist. You can also limit your practice to medicine only, if you choose. Essentially, you can spent your entire day doing medicine checks limited to psychotropic medications.

I know of instances where local community physicians are referring their psychotropic medicine cases to an M.P. for combined medicine management and therapy. They feel there is less chance of addiction and that the patient will follow through with his treatment.

Hope that helps.:)


I would honestly not advice just doing med checks. If there is no other option and people are in dire need, then yes.

Prescribing psychologists are not supposed to do med checks only. It's all about integrated care, which means psychotherapy and meds when needed.

So, take that into account too :cool:

Good luck!
 
I think it is very difficult to give such advice until you have practiced for a period of time utilizing medications as part of your treatment plan. Just as not everyone needs or would benefit from medication, the same is true for psychotherapy. Also, even if one chooses to not perform psychotherapy (as I have mainly due to very poor reimbursement) it is quite easy to still have appropriate patients see another psychotherapist.
 
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I think it is very difficult to give such advice until you have practiced for a period of time utilizing medications as part of your treatment plan. Just as not everyone needs or would benefit from medication, the same is true for psychotherapy. Also, even if one chooses to not perform psychotherapy (as I have mainly due to very poor reimbursement) it is quite easy to still have appropriate patients see another psychotherapist.

If you don't mind my asking, if you don't do therapy, what do you do?
 
Medication consults, and a variety of other assessment related stuff.
 
A psychiatrist’s perspective:

The case for prescribing psychologists

By Daniel Carlat, M.D.

Psychologists now have prescriptive authority in New Mexico, Louisiana, Guam and all branches of the U.S. Military. Although the “RxP” movement recently experienced a setback when Oregon’s governor vetoed a bill that would have authorized prescriptive authority, it is increasingly likely that many more states will pass such bills over the next 10 to 20 years.
The overwhelming majority of psychiatrists are adamantly opposed to RxP, officially citing concerns about patient safety. However, as a psychiatrist who was once involved in the politics of the American Psychiatric Association, I know that the major concern has to do primarily with economics and prestige. Psychiatrists are afraid of losing business to prescribing psychologists, with the consequent diminishment of their power within the mental health community.
I think these concerns are misguided. Regarding patient safety, it is clear that prescribing psychologists have already established a track record of safely and competently prescribing psychotropics. This track record began in 1991, when the Department of Defense developed an experimental program to teach psychologists how to prescribe medications. In 1998, this program was carefully evaluated by the American College of Neuropharmacology, an organization of psychiatrists and psychiatric researchers. This panel concluded that all 10 graduates of the program “performed with excellence wherever they were placed,” and there were no reports of medication errors or bad patient outcomes.
The program was discontinued because it was not considered to be a cost-effective use of military resources, but over the last few years, the military has hired many prescribing psychologists who have been trained in one of several civilian-based psychoparmacology masters programs. Prescribing psychologists now practice in all branches of the military, and one prescribing psychologist (Major Alan Hopewell) was recently awarded the Bronze Star Medal for meritorious medical service during Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2007-2008.
In Louisiana and New Mexico, it is estimated that several thousand prescriptions have been written by prescribing psychologists. There have been no reported complaints about these practitioners from patients or from collaborating doctors, nor have any malpractice suits been registered involving prescribing psychologists. Thus, it is becoming increasingly clear that the argument about patient safety is a red herring and masks the actual resistance, which regards competition for professional turf and the money that flows from that.
Why would I, a psychiatrist, actively argue in favor of psychologists prescribing? I have two main reasons: First, there is a critical national shortage of psychiatric prescribers, and second, psychiatric practice has become dangerously fixated on psychopharmacological solutions.
Regarding the shortage of psychiatrists, a recent series of articles in the October 2009 issue of Psychiatric Services reported that 96 percent of all U.S. counties have some unmet need for prescribers. In three quarters of counties, the shortage was described as “severe,” meaning that over half of the medication needs of psychiatric patients are unmet.
It is inconceivable that existing psychiatrists will be able to fill this gap, both because many are reaching retirement age and because there is no indication that more psychiatric residency slots will be created soon. Psychiatric nurse practitioners and physician assistants will help to absorb some of the need, but in my opinion prescribing psychologists will have to become a significant part of the professional landscape if we want to adequately serve the needs of these patients.
Regarding problems with psychiatric practice style, data have shown that psychiatrists are becoming increasingly fixated on brief medication visits and are doing less psychotherapy. In a 2008 article in the Archives of General Psychiatry, researchers found that the percentage of visits to psychiatrists that include psychotherapy dropped from 44 percent in 1996-1997 to 29 percent in 2004-2005. If, as seems likely, this rate of therapy attrition has continued, (about 2 per cent per year), it is likely that fewer than 20 percent of psychiatrist visits now include psychotherapy.
Prescribing psychologists, on the other hand, have continued to emphasize therapy as the bedrock of mental health care, with medications used as adjunctive care when needed. It must be acknowledged that the evidence for this statement is currently anecdotal (based largely on articles written by prescribing psychologists describing their cases, many of which are published in the Division 55 newsletter).
The fact that psychologists begin their training with five to six years focusing on psychosocial approaches implies that they will be able to maintain a healthy balance between psychotherapy and medication approaches. Psychiatrists, on the other hand, begin their training with five years of being steeped in the biomedical model (four years of medical school and one year of medical internship). Even the three subsequent years of psychiatric residency are focused on biomedical approaches to mental illness, though therapy techniques are also intensively taught.
In the future, I predict that prescribing psychologists will become the “primary care practitioners” of the mental health care system. Patients with psychiatric needs will receive their initial evaluation and treatment from prescribing psychologists, who will combine therapy and medication as needed. Patients with complicated medical or neurological issues will likely be referred to psychiatrists for treatment.
Psychiatry will evolve into a more frankly neuropsychiatric profession, and psychiatrists will likely do more physical exams and become more proficient in ordering and interpreting brain scans and genomic testing, both of which are still in their infancy but are expected to grow in clinical importance over the next decades.
The end result will be a more rational mental health care system in which all patients can routinely receive integrative treatment, rather than the fragmented approach which characterizes most psychiatric treatment today.
----------

Daniel J. Carlat, M.D., is associate clinical professor of psychiatry at Tufts University School of Medicine, editor-in-chief of The Carlat Psychiatry Report, a monthly newsletter on psychopharmacology, and the author of Unhinged: The Trouble with Psychiatry (Simon and Schuster). He may be contacted at [email protected].
 
Ya I read that. There are psychiatrists in favor of RxP.
 
Does anyone have some numbers they can throw at me? For as long as I can remember I have wanted to go to medical school and become a Psychiatrist; I actually just completed my applications for medical school. Lately however, I have been giving a lot of thought to pursuing a PhD or PsyD with advanced training in Psychopharmacology instead. That said, The economy isn't the greatest right now so I have to consider the financial aspects of the profession before I fully commit myself to it, and leave my current job of $56,000/year.

Its not too late for me to go to medical school. I would just prefer to not accumulate the heavy debt of a medical education if I can do something very similar to psychiatry for a fraction of the tuition. On the same note, it would be impractical for me to become a Psychologist (RxP) if it means going to school for 5-6 more years, only to earn a smaller salary than I do at present. Is there any chance of that happening?

It's been about 5 years since I added prescribing to my practice as a psychologist. I provide a range of services - meds and therapy, therapy alone, meds alone, assesment/testing, consultation - and I have more business than I can handle. I make as much or more than any of the psychiatrists I know (I'm also child/adolescent certified) and I don't take insurance. If you can Rx and you are well-trained, the patients will find you and your competence will consistently generate numerous referrals. It doesn't really matter how you Rx - as a MD, NP, Rx Psychologist - if you know what you're doing and you have good relationship skills, they money will follow. The MD route, however, will ensure portability and extreme ease of employment - something not necessarily available or guaranteed if you go one of the other routes.
 
A psychiatrist’s perspective:

The case for prescribing psychologists

By Daniel Carlat, M.D.

Psychologists now have prescriptive authority in New Mexico, Louisiana, Guam and all branches of the U.S. Military. Although the “RxP” movement recently experienced a setback when Oregon’s governor vetoed a bill that would have authorized prescriptive authority, it is increasingly likely that many more states will pass such bills over the next 10 to 20 years.
The overwhelming majority of psychiatrists are adamantly opposed to RxP, officially citing concerns about patient safety. However, as a psychiatrist who was once involved in the politics of the American Psychiatric Association, I know that the major concern has to do primarily with economics and prestige. Psychiatrists are afraid of losing business to prescribing psychologists, with the consequent diminishment of their power within the mental health community.
I think these concerns are misguided. Regarding patient safety, it is clear that prescribing psychologists have already established a track record of safely and competently prescribing psychotropics. This track record began in 1991, when the Department of Defense developed an experimental program to teach psychologists how to prescribe medications. In 1998, this program was carefully evaluated by the American College of Neuropharmacology, an organization of psychiatrists and psychiatric researchers. This panel concluded that all 10 graduates of the program “performed with excellence wherever they were placed,” and there were no reports of medication errors or bad patient outcomes.
The program was discontinued because it was not considered to be a cost-effective use of military resources, but over the last few years, the military has hired many prescribing psychologists who have been trained in one of several civilian-based psychoparmacology masters programs. Prescribing psychologists now practice in all branches of the military, and one prescribing psychologist (Major Alan Hopewell) was recently awarded the Bronze Star Medal for meritorious medical service during Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2007-2008.
In Louisiana and New Mexico, it is estimated that several thousand prescriptions have been written by prescribing psychologists. There have been no reported complaints about these practitioners from patients or from collaborating doctors, nor have any malpractice suits been registered involving prescribing psychologists. Thus, it is becoming increasingly clear that the argument about patient safety is a red herring and masks the actual resistance, which regards competition for professional turf and the money that flows from that.
Why would I, a psychiatrist, actively argue in favor of psychologists prescribing? I have two main reasons: First, there is a critical national shortage of psychiatric prescribers, and second, psychiatric practice has become dangerously fixated on psychopharmacological solutions.
Regarding the shortage of psychiatrists, a recent series of articles in the October 2009 issue of Psychiatric Services reported that 96 percent of all U.S. counties have some unmet need for prescribers. In three quarters of counties, the shortage was described as “severe,” meaning that over half of the medication needs of psychiatric patients are unmet.
It is inconceivable that existing psychiatrists will be able to fill this gap, both because many are reaching retirement age and because there is no indication that more psychiatric residency slots will be created soon. Psychiatric nurse practitioners and physician assistants will help to absorb some of the need, but in my opinion prescribing psychologists will have to become a significant part of the professional landscape if we want to adequately serve the needs of these patients.
Regarding problems with psychiatric practice style, data have shown that psychiatrists are becoming increasingly fixated on brief medication visits and are doing less psychotherapy. In a 2008 article in the Archives of General Psychiatry, researchers found that the percentage of visits to psychiatrists that include psychotherapy dropped from 44 percent in 1996-1997 to 29 percent in 2004-2005. If, as seems likely, this rate of therapy attrition has continued, (about 2 per cent per year), it is likely that fewer than 20 percent of psychiatrist visits now include psychotherapy.
Prescribing psychologists, on the other hand, have continued to emphasize therapy as the bedrock of mental health care, with medications used as adjunctive care when needed. It must be acknowledged that the evidence for this statement is currently anecdotal (based largely on articles written by prescribing psychologists describing their cases, many of which are published in the Division 55 newsletter).
The fact that psychologists begin their training with five to six years focusing on psychosocial approaches implies that they will be able to maintain a healthy balance between psychotherapy and medication approaches. Psychiatrists, on the other hand, begin their training with five years of being steeped in the biomedical model (four years of medical school and one year of medical internship). Even the three subsequent years of psychiatric residency are focused on biomedical approaches to mental illness, though therapy techniques are also intensively taught.
In the future, I predict that prescribing psychologists will become the “primary care practitioners” of the mental health care system. Patients with psychiatric needs will receive their initial evaluation and treatment from prescribing psychologists, who will combine therapy and medication as needed. Patients with complicated medical or neurological issues will likely be referred to psychiatrists for treatment.
Psychiatry will evolve into a more frankly neuropsychiatric profession, and psychiatrists will likely do more physical exams and become more proficient in ordering and interpreting brain scans and genomic testing, both of which are still in their infancy but are expected to grow in clinical importance over the next decades.
The end result will be a more rational mental health care system in which all patients can routinely receive integrative treatment, rather than the fragmented approach which characterizes most psychiatric treatment today.
----------

Daniel J. Carlat, M.D., is associate clinical professor of psychiatry at Tufts University School of Medicine, editor-in-chief of The Carlat Psychiatry Report, a monthly newsletter on psychopharmacology, and the author of Unhinged: The Trouble with Psychiatry (Simon and Schuster). He may be contacted at [email protected].

Edieb, could you give me the URL of that Carlat post?
 
So I've been away from this forum for a while now, that's because I took the plunge and took on a position as a medical psychologist. I can tell you first hand that the experience so far has been everything that I hoped for and more! It has been the best decision that I've made professionally, financially, and even socially. I'm providing both med management and psychological treatment. I absolutely see the difference of this unified model vs. the split model. I order labs, interpret them, refer to physicians if I id abnormal findings, get called for med consults, do med checks alone at times but on most occassions I do cbt plus meds.

I was a bit apprehensive about how my medical colleagues would perceive me; however, as I suspected, just about all of them had no preconceived notion against medical psychologists. I'm finding that in 'the real world' nobody cares about turf, they actually really just want you to help them out. Whether because a physician doesn't have the knowledge base or whether someone is a bit on the 'pass on the buck' side, I am benefiting with every experience. And yes, it is absolutely true, even from the mouths of my pcp colleagues, they don't know about psychotropics as much as a medical psychologist, and they have no problem saying that at all, they need us. Even among psychiatrists, all of the ones that I encountered have been more than helpful, they have been open at providing consultations to me without any prejudice.

I want to encourage those psychologists on this board to keep movement going... it's worth it! you will advance professionally and financially. Don't get caught up in petty arguments (I'm the first one to say that I have on this board before) with those against rxp. I'm amazed at the growing numbers of rxp psych grads on a regular basis.
 
Anyone else going to the NEI congress in Colorado Springs today??
 
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So I've been away from this forum for a while now, that's because I took the plunge and took on a position as a medical psychologist...

Congratulations! It's good to hear that there is a positive side to this controversy. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing what Rx psych program you went to?
 
Just got back from class 3 of New Mexico State's post-doctoral masters psychopharm class. It is really an excellent experience and seems like very high quality training. Saturday and Sunday we learned about the microanatomy of the human brain from a physician professor who works for the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. If anybody has any questions about the courses or about how the can aid the RxP movement, I would be glad to answer them!
 
This is an interesting thread.

While I generally agree with a lot of Dr. Carlat's op-ed's, I wonder a little more about this lack of adverse event reports EQUALS lack of adverse events.

Unlike surgeons, who get sued quite regularly, psychiatrists get sued on average every 33 years (or so says my malpractice company). Being a psychiatrist that does research in psychosomatics, I've become aware of how many misses really go under the radar. The most blaring example is in the emergency department -- Medical screening and "medical clearance" often can be as rudimentary as eyeballing a patient, or basic screening labs. Yet problems might not get picked up on at all if not looked for down the road. A presumption that if psychiatric symptoms are caused by a medical condition, it will eventually get bad enough to show itself in physical decompensation and a further workup misses the fact that the body can eventually heal many illnesses. There's no consensus on what constitutes a standard of care for a workup, and so some people, even those with psychotic illnesses, have never had a workup to evaluate a possible organic etiology. I'm not suggesting we LP everyone, but certainly a lot more headscans. At our own hospital in the elderly and those admitted to the geriatric psychiatric unit after being "medically cleared," 40% were later found to have a medical condition that partially or solely contributed to their behavioral issues once treated. Again the point here being if you don't look for it you won't find it. These people could very well have been treated with psychotropics only which may have masked their symptoms, but not eliminated the underlying causes. In fact I've seen this all too often in other settings. Once a symptom is categorized as "psychiatric," the workup often stops there.

As this pertains to the psychologist prescribing data, I can't help but critically analyze this dataset, recognizing that lack of evidence doesn't equal evidence of lack. Just because no one has filed an adverse event or a lawsuit doesn't mean the problems aren't out there. As the evidence does show, the best way to keep someone from suing is to have a good relationship with them. Psychiatrists (and psychologists) obviously have a close relationship inherently, due to the nature of their work. Patients are overall not educated about how adverse events could be related to their meds, and they often take the word of the professional as gospel.

Now if someone can show me a prospective study on a large body of patients, actively assessing for common medication side effects, screening, etc., and that psychologists were no worse than psychiatrists in detecting adverse outcomes or comorbidities as they arose, then I might think differently. But when I read earlier posts in this thread (and I didn't read them all, admittedly) that psychologists aren't even trained in taking basic vitals, then I fall back again into the problem of - If you don't look for it, you won't find it.
 
Good points, but as usual you are being misled. Vitals....really, who can't do that? NM Rx psychs do physicials, and although I think this is silly and virtually no psychiatrist would touch this I know how to and frequently do perform basic physical exams, and I even teach it to family medicine residents. There is no data-set because there is not a large enough group from which to sample, and will not be until more laws are passed and more prescribers exist. I have made mistakes, as have you and every other provider.
 
Good points, but as usual you are being misled. Vitals....really, who can't do that? NM Rx psychs do physicials, and although I think this is silly and virtually no psychiatrist would touch this I know how to and frequently do perform basic physical exams, and I even teach it to family medicine residents. There is no data-set because there is not a large enough group from which to sample, and will not be until more laws are passed and more prescribers exist. I have made mistakes, as have you and every other provider.

Sure, not many psychiatrists do full physicals at intake.

But a psychologist teaching physical exams? I think that's far outside of the scope. To play with this a little bit, answer me this: What are you looking for in your basic exam? How would you differentiate a new onset psychosis from say delirium, or delirium tremens from alcoholic hallucinosis, or track dizziness in someone you've given prazosin or seroquel? How would you rule out other causes of dizziness in this patient?

I am not misled, and I think that's a bit condescending, frankly. I'm most definitely not trying to inflame things, but have a coherent discussion on the topic. A big issue in my above post is that well trained physicians frequently miss important findings, most often because they're not looking for them. And you're saying that a psychologist can teach physicals to residents because they're qualified to do it?

The real question I would ask is this-- When as a "Medical Psychologist" do you realize you're out of your depth and refer someone, if ever? The way you present yourself, you are equal in training to all others. Do you recognize any gaps or insufficiencies in your training?
 
Nope, that's your projection. Look it up and tell me what it means. I have no energy or time for theoretical pissing matches. Enjoy;)
 
Nope, that's your projection. Look it up and tell me what it means. I have no energy or time for theoretical pissing matches. Enjoy;)

Wasn't looking to have a pissing match. But a serious discussion about the deficiencies in each. The problem is that too many from each side refuse to admit they can't do it all. Because ceding any ground might mean you're not as perfect as you present yourself.
 
Sure you were, look at your pimping-threat post. I am not perfect, nor have I presented myself this way. Actually you took 2 words (psychopharm consult) and projected all of your anger and resentment about non-physicians who prescribe onto me; you have no idea what my training is or what I do. When you want to actually have a conversation it will be made evident by the lack of regressive and immature coping strategies in your dialogue.
 
Sure you were, look at your pimping-threat post. I am not perfect, nor have I presented myself this way. Actually you took 2 words (psychopharm consult) and projected all of your anger and resentment about non-physicians who prescribe onto me; you have no idea what my training is or what I do. When you want to actually have a conversation it will be made evident by the lack of regressive and immature coping strategies in your dialogue.

That was not directed towards you in particular. You just happened to be the vocal representative of psychopharm consulting by psychologists at this point in a 24 page thread. The you in the statement of perfection, if reading the entire paragraph, was in reference to the greater "you" of the two sides of the argument. Read the post again and refer to the sentence immediately preceding the one you're referencing. In this case your interpretation that this was targeted at you in particular is more revealing about you than me.

Furthermore your rationalization in referring to my [supposed] immature defense mechanisms evades the question(s) itself.

So...When as a "Medical Psychologist" do you realize you're out of your depth and refer someone, if ever? Do you recognize any gaps or insufficiencies in your training?
 
That was not directed towards you in particular. You just happened to be the vocal representative of psychopharm consulting by psychologists at this point in a 24 page thread. The you in the statement of perfection, if reading the entire paragraph, was in reference to the greater "you" of the two sides of the argument. Read the post again and refer to the sentence immediately preceding the one you're referencing. In this case your interpretation that this was targeted at you in particular is more revealing about you than me.

Furthermore your rationalization in referring to my [supposed] immature defense mechanisms evades the question(s) itself.

So...When as a "Medical Psychologist" do you realize you're out of your depth and refer someone, if ever? Do you recognize any gaps or insufficiencies in your training?

You sound like a very angry person. With the way that you place medical psychologist in quotation marks and with your indirect attack/question regarding whether Stigmata ever refers out, you also come across as very arrogant.

I am sure when Stigmata does not know about a certain psychopharm issue, he does not just guess. As a doctor, I am sure he has learned where his limits are and does not need you to act like he is some type of narcissistic megalomaniac. He is simply filling a void in a rural area due to very few medical students wanting to go into psychiatry.
 
I think you two are reacting pretty adversely to posts that really aren't that inflammatory...
 
You sound like a very angry person. With the way that you place medical psychologist in quotation marks and with your indirect attack/question regarding whether Stigmata ever refers out, you also come across as very arrogant.

I am sure when Stigmata does not know about a certain psychopharm issue, he does not just guess. As a doctor, I am sure he has learned where his limits are and does not need you to act like he is some type of narcissistic megalomaniac. He is simply filling a void in a rural area due to very few medical students wanting to go into psychiatry.

I'm actually not angry at all. The placement of quotations is a reference to role, not a judgement. I make no assumptions about his expertise or his personality profile. What I'm trying to elicit is insight into a difference in level of training. Because unfortunately all too often (as is happening here) this conversation devolves into defensiveness, where everyone references how they can do everything, with psychologists having an absolute expertise in meds, and psychiatrists talking about how they can do psychological testing as well as anyone.

What I'm trying to do is step out of that role and have a discussion about when someone can recognize they're out of their depth. As a psychiatrist, for example, if a patient complains of shooting pain in his legs (neuropathy) I could choose to treat it because I'm licensed to do it, but I would more likely refer to a primary care provider to manage this. This is outside of my scope of practice. I'm using this as a parallel. A more appropriate example might be how many failed med trials would you go through before seeking a second opinion? How would you distinguish and diagnose a hypoactive delirium from new onset depression? When would you refer this case for medical w/u, or to a psychiatrist for further evaluation?

These are real cases and situations, and I'm trying to actually break through the bravado to look not just at what's legally adequate, but where are the real gaps. I make no assumptions that Stigmata knows when to refer, or that anyone else does for that matter. Legal requirements for licensure don't correlate with quality of training, in physicians, psychologists, or anyone else.
 
I'm actually not angry at all. The placement of quotations is a reference to role, not a judgement. I make no assumptions about his expertise or his personality profile. What I'm trying to elicit is insight into a difference in level of training. Because unfortunately all too often (as is happening here) this conversation devolves into defensiveness, where everyone references how they can do everything, with psychologists having an absolute expertise in meds, and psychiatrists talking about how they can do psychological testing as well as anyone.

What I'm trying to do is step out of that role and have a discussion about when someone can recognize they're out of their depth. As a psychiatrist, for example, if a patient complains of shooting pain in his legs (neuropathy) I could choose to treat it because I'm licensed to do it, but I would more likely refer to a primary care provider to manage this. This is outside of my scope of practice. I'm using this as a parallel. A more appropriate example might be how many failed med trials would you go through before seeking a second opinion? How would you distinguish and diagnose a hypoactive delirium from new onset depression? When would you refer this case for medical w/u, or to a psychiatrist for further evaluation?

These are real cases and situations, and I'm trying to actually break through the bravado to look not just at what's legally adequate, but where are the real gaps. I make no assumptions that Stigmata knows when to refer, or that anyone else does for that matter. Legal requirements for licensure don't correlate with quality of training, in physicians, psychologists, or anyone else.

I think this is an entirely appropriate question, but one that not many people could provide a legitimate answer to due to the fact that there aren't that many medical psychologists and the ones that are practicing have not been doing it *that* long. What I do think of when I think of referring out, is anything outside of my scope of practice or expertise. For example, if I were in solo private practice and a couple who was having marriage difficulties called to come in, I would refer them to a MFT or a psychologist who I knew had experience and interest working with this type of population.

However, if I were a postdoc or if I were working in a group practice where I had access to supervision by someone who was trained in couples counseling, I may accept them as new patients. In both scenarios I had little or no training in couples counseling, but in the latter I had the backing to tackle it. I am hypothesizing that medication management could work similarly (i.e. if the problem appears to be outside of your area of comfort, you refer or seek supervision/consultation from a psychiatrist/PCP). Helping medical psychologists identify these signals that indicate they need "back-up" should probably be a major goal of these psychopharm MS degrees I have seen posts on.
 
Yes, that is how it works for meds as well. However, it is not always clear at the beginning that one is over their head, so it is more important to know your limits and how to address the problems as they arise than it is to have a conceptual idea of what populations, drug classes etc.. you need more knowledge about. I get more worried with patients who appear to be "simple cases" than I do with those who are clearly complicated.
 
Yes, that is how it works for meds as well. However, it is not always clear at the beginning that one is over their head, so it is more important to know your limits and how to address the problems as they arise than it is to have a conceptual idea of what populations, drug classes etc.. you need more knowledge about. I get more worried with patients who appear to be "simple cases" than I do with those who are clearly complicated.

So what would you say are the limits in pharm training for psychologists?
 
A big one...or two, inpatient care and major mental illness.
 
I feel like there are two groups on this forum that are consistently arguing.
the psychology students and the medical student.

Dont worry about turf battles. I practice in louisiana as a psychiatrist and i make close to $300,000.00

the prescribing psychologists have not made any difference in how we practice. The money in psychiatry is in medical directorships at various psychiatric facilities. also medical mgmt of complex psychiatric conditions.

There is not a single prescribing psychologist that has recieved a medical directorship in louisiana.

Billing medical insurance companies in private practice is a sure way to go bankrupt. the reimbursement rates are very low. The money in private practice is in well educated wealthy cash paying patients. Who know the difference between a medical psychologist and a psychiatrist. In louisiana the rx bill for psychologists have not made much of a difference.

The starting salary for a psychologist at a public clinic in louisiana is $30,000.00 where a psychiatrist starts out at $180,000.00
 
I feel like there are two groups on this forum that are consistently arguing.
the psychology students and the medical student.

Dont worry about turf battles. I practice in louisiana as a psychiatrist and i make close to $300,000.00

the prescribing psychologists have not made any difference in how we practice. The money in psychiatry is in medical directorships at various psychiatric facilities. also medical mgmt of complex psychiatric conditions.

There is not a single prescribing psychologist that has recieved a medical directorship in louisiana.

Billing medical insurance companies in private practice is a sure way to go bankrupt. the reimbursement rates are very low. The money in private practice is in well educated wealthy cash paying patients. Who know the difference between a medical psychologist and a psychiatrist. In louisiana the rx bill for psychologists have not made much of a difference.

The starting salary for a psychologist at a public clinic in louisiana is $30,000.00 where a psychiatrist starts out at $180,000.00

Actually, your statement about psychologists not receiving any medical directorships in LA is untrue. I know this because I received my Ph.D. in clinical psychology from LSU and had to work at Pinecrest Developmental Center (Alexandria) as part of my research training. The director of psychiatry there is a medical psychologist.
 
Actually, your statement about psychologists not receiving any medical directorships in LA is untrue. I know this because I received my Ph.D. in clinical psychology from LSU and had to work at Pinecrest Developmental Center (Alexandria) as part of my research training. The director of psychiatry there is a medical psychologist.

thats not a hospital. LSU does not allow psychologists to prescribe. It might have a loose affiliation but it is not part of the medical school. But anyway this turf battle is pointless. If you were to ask most psychologists about their career choice a lot of them will tell you it was not a wise decision financially.
 
thats not a hospital. LSU does not allow psychologists to prescribe. It might have a loose affiliation but it is not part of the medical school. But anyway this turf battle is pointless. If you were to ask most psychologists about their career choice a lot of them will tell you it was not a wise decision financially.

I don't think you said "hospital" I think you just said director. Regardless, psychologists prescribing is so new it's in its infancy. If it catches on it will change tremendously over the upcoming decades. And as far as asking prescribing psychologists about their feelings on career choice, you have no data to back up your opinion about them regretting it.
 
thats not a hospital. LSU does not allow psychologists to prescribe. It might have a loose affiliation but it is not part of the medical school. But anyway this turf battle is pointless. If you were to ask most psychologists about their career choice a lot of them will tell you it was not a wise decision financially.



Now I know you're not from Louisiana. Every healthcare professional who work in LA knows that Pinecrest is the largest developmental center hospital in the state.

In addition, it is state law in Louisiana that prescribing psychologists can (and do) prescribe in all state hospitals and facilities. Their salaries are equivalent to a psychiatrist.
 
From what I have seen, the persons educated at professional schools are a lot lower quality than those educated at universities. Two of the interns at my site are from prof schools (Argosy and Illinois School of Prof Psychology). Their education seems to be very applied driven versus a theory driven model. Hence, they don't come off as practicing psychology by numbers. One of them is psychodynamic but matched with this site that deals with intellectual disability....

The grass is still green
The sun still shines
 
Now I know you're not from Louisiana. Every healthcare professional who work in LA knows that Pinecrest is the largest developmental center hospital in the state.

In addition, it is state law in Louisiana that prescribing psychologists can (and do) prescribe in all state hospitals and facilities. Their salaries are equivalent to a psychiatrist.


actually i am from louisiana. and it is state law that medical directors of hospitals have to be an MD. Show me a statistic that shows medical psychologist salaries are equivalent to psychiatrists. People just throw out opinions here without any hard facts. pinecrest is in the middle of no where and not every health professional knows about it.

well let me ask you what your salary is and if your a medical psychologist.
 
News flash....LA is in the middle of nowhere! FYI, take your soapbox where people care. I am a medical psychologist in a non-RxP state and I make 6 figures in my sleep doing psychopharm consults for other MDs who are basically sick of the psychiatry primadonna BS. Primary care is done with psychiatry because they act like surgeons and ......just aren't.:D
 
News flash....LA is in the middle of nowhere! FYI, take your soapbox where people care. I am a medical psychologist in a non-RxP state and I make 6 figures in my sleep doing psychopharm consults for other MDs who are basically sick of the psychiatry primadonna BS. Primary care is done with psychiatry because they act like surgeons and ......just aren't.:D

I have been wondering about the rather Quixotic posts as of late, but I guess there is an ebb and flow to all of it.
 
actually i am from louisiana. and it is state law that medical directors of hospitals have to be an MD. Show me a statistic that shows medical psychologist salaries are equivalent to psychiatrists. People just throw out opinions here without any hard facts. pinecrest is in the middle of no where and not every health professional knows about it.

well let me ask you what your salary is and if your a medical psychologist.

I would honestly be surprised if many healthcare professionals in Louisiana didn't at least know about Pinecrest and Hammond/NLSSC. It'd be fairly similar to not knowing about ELMHS/Feliciana in Jackson or Greenwell Springs.
 
I'm also working as a prescribing psychologist and make exactly the amount that a psychiatrist would make...and I've been doing psychopharm for only a year... my pcp buddies don't care that I don't have a MD at the end of my name, they just want someone to help them... there is money in rxp folks...and you get paid well to provide comprehensive psych services... don't let some foolish troll distract you with lies.

ps. did my first order of haldol dec today! yeah it sounds pretty silly but... who cares... I think it's pretty cool...none of my pcp colleagues were familiar with it and I was able to help them with consultation from a psychiatrist.
 
Anyone going to the Midwinter Division 55 Conference in Washington?

We, the Dutch RxP movement, have 2 people speaking there. Jan Derksen and Huib van Dis. Sadly, I can't be there. Next year hopefully... expensive trip, especially for poor PhD students like me.
 
Who comes onto a public forum posting how much money they make??

Interesting question. The prescribing psychologists' organization in Louisiana (called LAMP) is not a professional group. It is a Political Action Committee. And the "dues" are a $2,500 annual donation to the PAC. Has anyone ever belonged to a professional organization that charges this much?

Even though they now have RxP, this group continues to pile up hundreds of thousands of dollars in their PAC war chest. They continue to pay into the political funds of politicians. They also continue to pay $6,000 per month to the extremely powerful lobbying group (Courson Nickels) that got them their original RxP law and also helped them pass a new law while keeping it secret from all other psychologists in the state.

It's all about money, folks.

By the way, a recent poll of members of the Louisiana Psychological Association finds this secretly-passed law, called Act 251, should be changed. It is very unpopular, but those who got the gold make the rules. And now that the prescribers can boast that they make lots of money, apparently they continue to make the rules.

This reinforces the contention that the RxP campaign is not a professional effort, but a disease powered by greed and ruthless politics.
 
I will let you explain that to the patients I see and help every day that you could not. I am sure they will interested.
 
I will let you explain that to the patients I see and help every day that you could not. I am sure they will interested.


I'm sure they will be!

There are 443,000 medically trained health care providers in the U.S. who can prescribe psychoactive medication. Any clinical psychologists who are unwilling or unable to collaborate with their patients' medical providers to obtain medication in the context of the patients full medical condition is incompetent and should not be practicing.

Anyone that incompetent should not be practicing medicine based on 6-7 courses taken online from a psychology school.

Any patient who is not under the care of a medically trained professional should not be prescribed medication from someone whose only medical education was those 6-7 online courses.
 
I'm sure they will be!

There are 443,000 medically trained health care providers in the U.S. who can prescribe psychoactive medication. Any clinical psychologists who are unwilling or unable to collaborate with their patients' medical providers to obtain medication in the context of the patients full medical condition is incompetent and should not be practicing.

It is psychiatry that is unwilling or unable to collaborate with their patients' medical providers (other physicians), so PCPs/FPs are reaching out to prescribing psychologists for collaboration. The PCPs/FPs are handling the medical cares of the patient, and then having them follow up with the prescribing psychologists for comprehensive mental health services since they are equipped to handle a range of services that psychiatry has not, will not, and/or cannot provide to them.

A prescribing pad is but one tool and not the pharma-branded hammer that psychiatry has been convinced is the solution for every "nail" that walks through the door. While there are many prescribers out there, that doesn't mean the patients are being seen. Patients want their providers to work in unison and provide services when they need them, and not 4-8+ weeks later when it is convenient for the 1 or 2 psychiatrists in their town to squeeze them in.

Anyone that incompetent should not be practicing medicine based on 6-7 courses taken online from a psychology school.

Any patient who is not under the care of a medically trained professional should not be prescribed medication from someone whose only medical education was those 6-7 online courses.

Uh-huh. You know and I know that is a poor characterization of the training, but one of us isn't trying to claim it as fact. I'm actually not supportive of the current standards set for prescribing psychologists, but I try and stick to the facts and not infuse erroneous information to further my position. A discussion of the actual training is needed, not scare tactics and untrue statements that muddy the waters. If you want to have an impact on the discussion, bring facts and not fallacy to the table.
 
It is psychiatry that is unwilling or unable to collaborate with their patients' medical providers (other physicians), so PCPs/FPs are reaching out to prescribing psychologists for collaboration. The PCPs/FPs are handling the medical cares of the patient, and then having them follow up with the prescribing psychologists for comprehensive mental health services since they are equipped to handle a range of services that psychiatry has not, will not, and/or cannot provide to them.

A prescribing pad is but one tool and not the pharma-branded hammer that psychiatry has been convinced is the solution for every "nail" that walks through the door. While there are many prescribers out there, that doesn't mean the patients are being seen. Patients want their providers to work in unison and provide services when they need them, and not 4-8+ weeks later when it is convenient for the 1 or 2 psychiatrists in their town to squeeze them in.



Uh-huh. You know and I know that is a poor characterization of the training, but one of us isn't trying to claim it as fact. I'm actually not supportive of the current standards set for prescribing psychologists, but I try and stick to the facts and not infuse erroneous information to further my position. A discussion of the actual training is needed, not scare tactics and untrue statements that muddy the waters. If you want to have an impact on the discussion, bring facts and not fallacy to the table.

On the contrary, it is quite accurate. The legislation proposed by the state organizations acting on the APA model call for 300 "contact hours" of training. A 3-hour semester (15 weeks) course is 45 "contact hours". I invite you to do the math, it's 6.6 3-hour courses.

The coursework can be, and in some schools always is, taken online, do you not dispute that?

The training is done by psychology schools not medical training facilities, do you not agree?
 
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