Cheating at SAUSHEC

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and to top it off, the "whistleblower" was being disciplined (and dismissed?) For unprofessional behavior, to include sexual harassment. i don't know the guy, but sounds like he screwed all his classmates and his entire radiology profession trying to exact his revenge. sad. if they look hard enough, virtually every specialty has similar databanks. . . . in fact, some fellowship programs may be known for their (unshared) databanks, lol. wonder who will be next?

-- your friendly neighborhood databank? what databank? caveman
 
Even if you fully memorized every test question is that really going to help you? The questions change every year. Even if you could pass the exam you still have to demonstrate clinical competency and mastery which might be harder than the test. Question banks enhance the educational process.

I've never seen a task bank of psychiatry questions from our boards like that. There are different sorts of review materials and people said they saw stuff on the boards but never quite like a formal databank designed to cheat the test. The other thing about psych is we have oral boards which are incredibly difficult. Not only do you have to have a firm understanding you have to be able to communicate it under pressure. There are lots of folks who know the stuff but choke on the communication part.
 
The story I heard from the people at SAUSHEC was that the guy was sexually harassing and stalking one of the attendings. They told him to cut it out several times, he wouldn't, so they fired him. So then he decides to get revenge and calls the ACGME and the American Board of Radiology and dumps a laundry list of complaints about the residency, everything from work hours to this recall business. The ACGME comes out to San Antonio, does the obligatory investigation into this raft of complaints and finds zip, except for this recall thing. So instead of accrediting the SAUSHEC residency for the maximum of 5 years for this accreditation cycle, they nudge it down to 4 years. It's on the ACGME's web site. Matter closed.

The ABR however gets wind of the recall thing, and they've been irritated at the idea of people telling their buddies what was on the test for years. I don't know why. They say that it costs $100,000 to create a new test, but then they charge $3K+ per resident to take it. Considering that more than a thousand residents take it a year, $100K is chump change, and now I'm wondering where the other 3 million goes. Also, they've apparently never visited a Barnes and Noble and seen the entire section dedicated to study guides for the ACT, SAT, MCAT, LSAT, CPA exam, USMLE Steps, every high school AP exam, etc., all filled with retired questions from previous examinations. The rational thing to do would be to simply publish your own official ABR study guide of retired questions which you could charge whatever you want for and recoup the expense of making better tests that way. Everyone's happy. Nope. Instead, the ABR solicited CNN for a story to drag radiologists threw the mud and aligned themselves against their own members by teaming up with some disgraced former military resident with an obvious ax to grind. Brilliant.

Happy Friday the 13th. Wish it were April 1st.
 
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Agreed...

The real travesty is the 24,000 thousand "grandfathered" radiologists whom never have to take any boards ever again.. lest some of them can't read an US or CT ...

This was a disgruntled witchhunt by one fired guy... that's it
 
AF M4 said:
Happy Friday the 13th. Wish it were April 1st.
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Well said. Also, all of the medical tests (Step 1 thru Board Certification exams) are taken by people who actually have some high stakes and want to do well (the MS2 taking Step 1, the resident taking the boards,etc) . . . so who in their right mind would waste time on the actual test, trying to memorize a question (plus answer choices), instead of moving on to the next question or block and trying to maximize their own score??? There's no such thing as professional test takers, when comes to these tests (of course, the same cannot be said of pre-med school tests, MCAT, GRE, etc . . . which any shmoe cant take at leisure, but who cares about those).

The most I've heard someone do is jot down a list of topics that were presented on the test, but that information can be obtained by multiple sources (books, prep courses, etc). And why should that be illegal? If you can recall things strictly from memory and share the info, more power to the people. The burden should fall on the test administrators, to make a large enough qbank, such that no amount of 'recall' will really help anyone.

I think the ABR is just bored. They should be concerned about more important things, like making sure Obama care doesn't hack down their over-inflated salaries (from $500K to $400K/yr, for reading from their homes in PJs) and giving that delta in $$$ to some poor FP who sees 30 patients a day.
 
This is stupid. It only got on CNN because it only is military-related. I have also heard second - hand that the source of the information was terminated for serious professional misconduct. Yet CNN reports the story as fact.
 
DrMetal said:
for reading from their homes in PJs
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This made me laugh because it reminded me of a call to one of the night hawk-type guys. He was freezing his ass off in the Lake Tahoe area, and he said he should take an aspirin so he didn't get a DVT. Hey, it was funny at the time.
 
Homunculus said:
and to top it off, the "whistleblower" was being disciplined (and dismissed?) For unprofessional behavior, to include sexual harassment. i don't know the guy, but sounds like he screwed all his classmates and his entire radiology profession trying to exact his revenge. sad. if they look hard enough, virtually every specialty has similar databanks. . . . in fact, some fellowship programs may be known for their (unshared) databanks, lol. wonder who will be next?

-- your friendly neighborhood databank? what databank? caveman
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I wouldn't worry about it. Everyone used test bank during college...medical school..residency...This is nothing new. However if recalls program had identical questions and residents who used the recall programs know the answer to 50% of questions that is cheating I suppose.

I also wonder if he had not been fired or better yet when he was told director in 2008 to use the recall why didn't he contact ACGME then? I agreed. It's a revenge.
 
haujun said:
I wouldn't worry about it. Everyone used test bank during college...medical school..residency...This is nothing new. However if recalls program had identical questions and residents who used the recall programs know the answer to 50% of questions that is cheating I suppose.

I also wonder if he had not been fired or better yet when he was told director in 2008 to use the recall why didn't he contact ACGME then? I agreed. It's a revenge.
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No one here thinks a line was crossed by deliberately remembering, recording, and exchanging board exam questions after signing the NDA specifically agreeing not to do so?
 
pgg said:
No one here thinks a line was crossed by deliberately remembering, recording, and exchanging board exam questions after signing the NDA specifically agreeing not to do so?
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Nah. Say that next month you decide to hold a Super Bowl party at your house for your buddies, and you ask everyone to pitch in a few bucks for snacks. You turn on the game, and hear that "this telecast is copyrighted by the NFL for the private use of our audience. Any other use of this telecast or any pictures, descriptions, or accounts of the game without the NFL's consent is prohibited."

Suddenly mercenary paratroopers from the NFL rappel through your windows, break down your doors and haul you to NFL prison. Why? Because you were making money from the NFL's product without their written consent. But that's ridiculous, you say, I've been holding Super Bowl parties for years and thousands of people across the country are doing the exact same thing right now. Tough nuggets, says the NFL paratrooper (who looks suspiciously like Tim Tebow) as he knocks your teeth in with the butt of a rifle with the logo of the Denver Broncos on it. Even though this is a ridiculous rule which has no basis in reality, and even though we've never really attempted to enforce it before despite our perfect awareness of the millions of "violations" in the past, today's the day that we make an example out of you in particular.

Also, we've sent a video of your capture to CNN, and asked them to put "Copyright Thief" in big letters underneath your picture.

So then, as you're sitting in some dungeon beneath the Meadowlands awaiting your fate alongside Jimmy Hoffa, are you really going to spend your final hours chastising yourself about how you crossed the line and betrayed the NFL's and the public's trust by continuing to show the Super Bowl even though the TV said you shouldn't?

People make up silly rules all the time, enforce them sometimes, and change them constantly. Most people though, have a built-in sense of what is "fair" and what isn't. Judging by the comments on CNN, most people think that using recalls is fine and are wondering what the big deal is.
 
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AF M4 said:
Nah. Say that next month you decide to hold a Super Bowl party at your house for your buddies, and you ask everyone to pitch in a few bucks for snacks. You turn on the game, and hear that "this telecast is copyrighted by the NFL for the private use of our audience. Any other use of this telecast or any pictures, descriptions, or accounts of the game without the NFL's consent is prohibited."

Suddenly mercenary paratroopers from the NFL rappel through your windows, break down your doors and haul you to NFL prison. Why? Because you were making money from the NFL's product without their written consent. But that's ridiculous, you say, I've been holding Super Bowl parties for years and thousands of people across the country are doing the exact same thing right now. Tough nuggets, says the NFL paratrooper (who looks suspiciously like Tim Tebow) as he knocks your teeth in with the butt of a rifle with the logo of the Denver Broncos on it. Even though this is a ridiculous rule which has no basis in reality, and even though we've never really attempted to enforce it before despite our perfect awareness of the millions of "violations" in the past, today's the day that we make an example out of you in particular.

Also, we've sent a video of your capture to CNN, and asked them to put "Copyright Thief" in big letters underneath your picture.

So then, as you're sitting in some dungeon beneath the Meadowlands awaiting your fate alongside Jimmy Hoffa, are you really going to spend your final hours chastising yourself about how you crossed the line and betrayed the NFL's and the public's trust by continuing to show the Super Bowl even though the TV said you shouldn't?

People make up silly rules all the time, enforce them sometimes, and change them constantly. Most people though, have a built-in sense of what is "fair" and what isn't. Judging by the comments on CNN, most people think that using recalls is fine and are wondering what the big deal is.
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Heh.

In a sense the ABR has reaped what it's sown. Hard to explain the cheapness or laziness of recycling so many questions each year. I thought that ongoing development was how they justified charging $1000s for taking the exam.

There's no such enormous, nationwide, ubiquitous recall database for anesthesia. Maybe that's because the ABA releases old exams (granted after many years) and publishes 200 high quality exam questions with explanations and references every year as a CME product. Never felt the need or urge to memorize questions, though of course we all sat around together after ITEs griping about bad questions or expressing surprise that a subject was so heavily emphasized.

Still. All the pre-meds on SDN know better than to record, share, and distribute MCAT test materials (on the forums or elsewhere), because they know the MCAT-police don't have a sense of humor about that and might squish them and their career hopes.

It just strikes me as pretty odd that most radiology residents in the country thought the ABR exam was different?
 
IgD said:
Even if you fully memorized every test question is that really going to help you? The questions change every year. Even if you could pass the exam you still have to demonstrate clinical competency and mastery which might be harder than the test. Question banks enhance the educational process.

I've never seen a task bank of psychiatry questions from our boards like that. There are different sorts of review materials and people said they saw stuff on the boards but never quite like a formal databank designed to cheat the test. The other thing about psych is we have oral boards which are incredibly difficult. Not only do you have to have a firm understanding you have to be able to communicate it under pressure. There are lots of folks who know the stuff but choke on the communication part.
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Radiology and Radiation Oncology have oral boards as well as written boards in multiple areas (clinical, radiobiology and physics).

-R
 
pgg said:
Heh.

In a sense the ABR has reaped what it's sown. Hard to explain the cheapness or laziness of recycling so many questions each year. I thought that ongoing development was how they justified charging $1000s for taking the exam.

There's no such enormous, nationwide, ubiquitous recall database for anesthesia. Maybe that's because the ABA releases old exams (granted after many years) and publishes 200 high quality exam questions with explanations and references every year as a CME product. Never felt the need or urge to memorize questions, though of course we all sat around together after ITEs griping about bad questions or expressing surprise that a subject was so heavily emphasized.

Still. All the pre-meds on SDN know better than to record, share, and distribute MCAT test materials (on the forums or elsewhere), because they know the MCAT-police don't have a sense of humor about that and might squish them and their career hopes.

It just strikes me as pretty odd that most radiology residents in the country thought the ABR exam was different?
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Not odd at all. Every radiology program in the country has a hard drive filled with Word files entitled "Stanford Recalls", "Duke Recalls", etc., put together by the residents of the most prestigious universities in the country. Program directors discuss recall questions and the reasoning behind answers during noon conferences. This has been going on without question for decades.

So which is more likely:
Option A: The ABR is right. Everyone who has used recalls in the past is a cheater, and we must now discredit every radiologist who has passed their boards in the past 20 years, and every residency program in the country is nothing but a den of scoundrels twisting their mustaches as they sit in their ivy-covered homes scheming about how to puncture the academic integrity of the ABR.

Option B: The ABR is simply another administrative organization trying to extract more money from its members while keeping its own costs low. It keeps bumping up fees and hates the thought of spending money on new questions, so it puts out warnings regarding recalls and is annoyed when smart people realize that using recalls is the only way to pass the test. Therefore they ignore the ABR's warnings, forcing it to (finally) spend money on designing and implementing a new test which is coming next year. Then one day in a fit of pique at its warnings not being taken seriously, the ABR decides to "send a message" and toss its young under the bus using a gullible news outlet as a forum.
 
AF M4 said:
Not odd at all. Every radiology program in the country has a hard drive filled with Word files entitled "Stanford Recalls", "Duke Recalls", etc., put together by the residents of the most prestigious universities in the country. Program directors discuss recall questions and the reasoning behind answers during noon conferences. This has been going on without question for decades.

So which is more likely:
Option A: The ABR is right. Everyone who has used recalls in the past is a cheater, and we must now discredit every radiologist who has passed their boards in the past 20 years, and every residency program in the country is nothing but a den of scoundrels twisting their mustaches as they sit in their ivy-covered homes scheming about how to puncture the academic integrity of the ABR.

Option B: The ABR is simply another administrative organization trying to extract more money from its members while keeping its own costs low. It keeps bumping up fees and hates the thought of spending money on new questions, so it puts out warnings regarding recalls and is annoyed when smart people realize that using recalls is the only way to pass the test. Therefore they ignore the ABR's warnings, forcing it to (finally) spend money on designing and implementing a new test which is coming next year. Then one day in a fit of pique at its warnings not being taken seriously, the ABR decides to "send a message" and toss its young under the bus using a gullible news outlet as a forum.
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Agree 125%... Exactly my thoughts as well!

-R
 
Seems like a poor situation on all accounts - the resident is obviously trying to do anything to get back at his program for dropping him and the ABR is playing dumb to a situation they probably knew about and have silently condoned for years. I don't see how the program director is really in the wrong (i don't know the details, obviously), but the way things work in the military I could see him being hung out to dry by the hospital leadership - in fact, I would be surprised if he wasn't. Someone always has to be sacrificed for bad press...

I think we should encourage military residency programs and medical schools to remove residents who are clearly deficient, especially after the Hasan situation. The caveat being that procedures should be followed to the T in any case of misconduct. Hopefully there is copious documentation for when the IG starts calling...

Sidebar: what do they do with .mil residents who get fired like this Webb character? GMO until the end of commitment?
 
grotto said:
Sidebar: what do they do with .mil residents who get fired like this Webb character? GMO until the end of commitment?
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I heard that he did ROTC and HPSP so he owes 8-9 years. It would be shame if he has to do GMO for 8 years. I am sure military wants to release him for good esp after this. I know a resident from general surgery who got dismissed from the program in the 5th year also spending time as GMO during his commitment.

If the reasons from dismisal was from temporary medical conditions or academic problems I suppose applicants can get back to program even after spending 1-2 years as GMO. However Dr Webb's case is rather different and CNN exposure only made it worse.

Another interesting question is if Captain promotable receives a letter of reprimand (during interim before pinning) can he stil pin on rank of Major?
 
pgg said:
No one here thinks a line was crossed by deliberately remembering, recording, and exchanging board exam questions after signing the NDA specifically agreeing not to do so?
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I guess you never been to board prep course where they show real questions in past years. I felt little uneasy when these questions were gathered in deliberated manner. However during real testing I don't remember seeing one identical question. 😎
 
grotto said:
Sidebar: what do they do with .mil residents who get fired like this Webb character? GMO until the end of commitment?
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He's in GMO world doing deployment physicals for the foreseeable future. Here's hoping he gets the first ever 5-year SERE course, something along the lines of "Advanced Survival Techniques for Living in a Septic Tank."
 
Homunculus said:
and to top it off, the "whistleblower" was being disciplined (and dismissed?) For unprofessional behavior, to include sexual harassment. i don't know the guy, but sounds like he screwed all his classmates and his entire radiology profession trying to exact his revenge. sad. if they look hard enough, virtually every specialty has similar databanks. . . . in fact, some fellowship programs may be known for their (unshared) databanks, lol. wonder who will be next?

-- your friendly neighborhood databank? what databank? caveman
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If I were this guy's superior, I would look for any way to ADSEP him. I would be interested to know what his classmates did to him.
 
I don't want to go into stories of other physicians in the Army that has misbehaved but let's just say that I have lost my faith in the Army regarding its ability to reprimand physicians. You all want to believe that this guy will be some sort of indefinite GMO but don't hold your breath. I can state numerous examples of physicians that perhaps acted out worse than this said individual and barely received a reprimand.
 
bustbones26 said:
I don't want to go into stories of other physicians in the Army that has misbehaved but let's just say that I have lost my faith in the Army regarding its ability to reprimand physicians. You all want to believe that this guy will be some sort of indefinite GMO but don't hold your breath. I can state numerous examples of physicians that perhaps acted out worse than this said individual and barely received a reprimand.
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All soldiers whether doctors or not are persecuted under UCMJ. I witnessed a medical provider received a letter of reprimand for dating enlisted soldier (medic). This would not happend in the civlian sector...doctor dating a nurse aid? and I find military law much more restrictive and even infringes on personal freedom.

CPT Webb received a letter of reprimand from the General which kills his chance of promotion during his time in the military. This is no light matter and it is not like he can apply to other residency.
 
haujun said:
All soldiers whether doctors or not are persecuted under UCMJ. I witnessed a medical provider received a letter of reprimand for dating enlisted soldier (medic). This would not happend in the civlian sector...doctor dating a nurse aid? and I find military law much more restrictive and even infringes on personal freedom.
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Yeah those silly military rules. Would this really be permissible in the civilian world, an attending dating a 19-yo tech in the same dept??? (I know many corporations frown upon such things, b/c of the ensuing drama, unfair treatment, etc . . . not to say that anyone gets fired, but it is discouraged).

Your personal freedoms are just fine, don't worry about it. It's a common misnomer that you give up your "personal freedoms" when you join the military, not the case; everything in the Constitution still applies (see the case of a Navy sailor who pleaded the 5th, wrt self-reporting DUIs, a military court ruled in his favor). Of course, we play by a certain rulebook: you gotta wear a uniform, gotta PT, can't screw an E-3 , most of which is clearly explained before signing up . . .things that should be weighed before voluntarily raising your right hand.

Be glad that the frat rule exists . . .as hard as your jobs are, you don't need the drama of your dept head banging one of the kids in your division (even with the rules in place, it happens plenty).

haujun said:
CPT Webb received a letter of reprimand from the General which kills his chance of promotion during his time in the military. This is no light matter and it is not like he can apply to other residency.
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Good, glad to see the Army is doing the right thing (perhaps learned from the Hassan tragedy) in getting rid of these malignancies before they become dangerous.
 
DrMetal said:
Yeah those silly military rules. Would this really be permissible in the civilian world, an attending dating a 19-yo tech in the same dept??? (I know many corporations frown upon such things, b/c of the ensuing drama, unfair treatment, etc . . . not to say that anyone gets fired, but it is discouraged).

Your personal freedoms are just fine, don't worry about it. It's a common misnomer that you give up your "personal freedoms" when you join the military, not the case; everything in the Constitution still applies (see the case of a Navy sailor who pleaded the 5th, wrt self-reporting DUIs, a military court ruled in his favor). Of course, we play by a certain rulebook: you gotta wear a uniform, gotta PT, can't screw an E-3 , most of which is clearly explained before signing up . . .things that should be weighed before voluntarily raising your right hand.

Be glad that the frat rule exists . . .as hard as your jobs are, you don't need the drama of your dept head banging one of the kids in your division (even with the rules in place, it happens plenty).
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Hmm another idealistic medical HPSP student who hasn't spent one day in active duty medical practice or deployment or hardship tour...Sure soldiers have basic rights as all citizens. But many rights even basic right of freedom of expression are different for soldiers. Also nobody reads UCMJ book before joining. I read part of the book and amazed at things I can't do in the military. In the end I think all this is important as soldiers have to be more discipline than the civilians. As for a medic she was a middle aged NCO. 19 y/o? hmm...may I ask what specialty are you interested in?
 
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haujun said:
Hmm another idealistic medical HPSP student who hasn't spent one day in active duty medical practice or deployment or hardship tour...Sure soldiers have basic rights as all citizens. But many rights even basic right of freedom of expression are different for soldiers. Also nobody reads UCMJ book before joining. I read part of the book and amazed at things I can't do in the military. In the end I think all this is important as soldiers have to be more discipline than the civilians. As for a medic she was a middle aged NCO. 19 y/o? hmm...may I ask what specialty are you interested in?
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Im hardly idealistic . . . and this topic of discussion has nothing to do with medical practice, it has more to do with common-sense behavior in the military work place, in which I have 10 yrs experience (and that's plenty of time). Of course some rights are different for soldiers, of course there's some restrictions (you can't always live where you want, you have to deploy, be separated from family, etc etc). You can have your "freedom of expression", but of course if you shoot your mouth off in front of the wrong people, there may be consequences (the same is very much true in the civilian world).

Nobody knows everything in UCMJ, but most people have a sense of what military life is like, before joining, at least they should. 19-yo or middle-age NCO no matter, please dont bang your troops . . .stick your wang elsewhere, there's plenty of fish in the sea.

What specialty am I interested in? Why is that important? If you must know, I'm gunning for Occupational Preventive Medicine in Tropical Places.
 
As a Certified Flight Instructor I can tell you that this same practice occurs in aviation and it is big business. Of coarse the FAA test questions are ridiculously poorly written and you still have to pass a practical. I don't really see a big deal with it because it should be the responsibility of the agency to change the questions. Until recently the FAA didn't and, for example, I memorized a test bank, answered 50 questions in 6 minutes and received a 98%.:laugh:
 
He (CPT Webb) is still on the promotion list for Major as per our last conversation. He is also "bored beyond belief" with his job as a support company S1 at BAMC. He is trying to get "them" to let him be a doctor again, and hoping to deploy as a GMO.
 
DrMetal said:
Your personal freedoms are just fine, don't worry about it. It's a common misnomer that you give up your "personal freedoms" when you join the military, not the case; everything in the Constitution still applies
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Lets not try to hijack this thread too much, but I think many active duty soldiers would agree that you give up quite a bit of personal freedom when joining the military.
 
[.
 
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Mirror Form said:
Lets not try to hijack this thread too much, but I think many active duty soldiers would agree that you give up quite a bit of personal freedom when joining the military.
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Agreed, 100%. I can't believe there are people here actually debating this.
 
ArmyGrad said:
He (CPT Webb) is still on the promotion list for Major as per our last conversation. He is also "bored beyond belief" with his job as a support company S1 at BAMC. He is trying to get "them" to let him be a doctor again, and hoping to deploy as a GMO.
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Wait, so let's tally this up:

1. Letter of reprimand in his file. Normally, this is a dead end for a career - you're stuck right where you are until the end. However, sounds like not in his case.

2. Physician not working as physician. Is an adjutant.

3. Lost his residency, with a disciplinary/moral component.

So, first, he wants to run out his time as a GMO? Fine. What about after that? It is unlikely (although not impossible, but close to it) that he will find a residency, and almost assuredly not in radiology, all those years down the road. Also, where will he get a license? This is quite concerning for medical boards, tasked to "protect the public".
 
Apollyon said:
Wait, so let's tally this up:

1. Letter of reprimand in his file. Normally, this is a dead end for a career - you're stuck right where you are until the end. However, sounds like not in his case.

2. Physician not working as physician. Is an adjutant.

3. Lost his residency, with a disciplinary/moral component.

So, first, he wants to run out his time as a GMO? Fine. What about after that? It is unlikely (although not impossible, but close to it) that he will find a residency, and almost assuredly not in radiology, all those years down the road. Also, where will he get a license? This is quite concerning for medical boards, tasked to "protect the public".
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These are my questions as well. Seems like he dug his own grave and hasn't quite realized it yet.
 
Actually, though, if he did a GMO year, then he already has a license somewhere. What I don't know is if someone gets a military residency and goes straight through, if they have to obtain a license (since they didn't do any unsupervised work) (I searched but didn't find an answer to that).

Still, though, when he goes to renew his license, he'll have to answer the questions about disciplinary action to whichever state. 6/1 and 1/2 a 12 of the other.
 
Apollyon said:
Actually, though, if he did a GMO year, then he already has a license somewhere. What I don't know is if someone gets a military residency and goes straight through, if they have to obtain a license (since they didn't do any unsupervised work) (I searched but didn't find an answer to that).
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All Army residents are required to obtain and maintain an unrestricted state license no later than the end of their PGY-2 year. If someone does a GMO tour, then I assume that person is expected to get licensed as soon as possible after finishing internship.
 
He's a DO, if they ADSEPed him he could apply for a DO radiology residency, right? Not to sound ignorant, but isn't that a totally different system(board certification, etc)?

They should just get rid of him... just make sure not to hire him again 5 years from now as a contractor.
 
grotto said:
They should just get rid of him... just make sure not to hire him again 5 years from now as a contractor.
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When I was a GMO, my CO decided against adsep'ing a couple of dirtbag Marines, in part because that's what they seemed to want. Instead, he took them to Iraq with us, and they filled sandbags all day, every day.

Maybe they could find gainful employment for him in that direction. 😀
 
Apollyon said:
Wait, so let's tally this up:

1. Letter of reprimand in his file. Normally, this is a dead end for a career - you're stuck right where you are until the end. However, sounds like not in his case.

2. Physician not working as physician. Is an adjutant.

3. Lost his residency, with a disciplinary/moral component.

So, first, he wants to run out his time as a GMO? Fine. What about after that? It is unlikely (although not impossible, but close to it) that he will find a residency, and almost assuredly not in radiology, all those years down the road. Also, where will he get a license? This is quite concerning for medical boards, tasked to "protect the public".
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This is just not the case. My (former) BN Surgeon received a letter of reprimand and has still been promoted and continues to receive choice assignments. I'm not putting specifics out in a public forum, but the dude is killing it.

Yes, you give up some personal freedom to serve your country. Anyone who says other wise is a recruiter. Doesn't mean it is really that big a deal.

Males/Females working together means Males/Females sleeping together. I first saw it in basic where big drill was banging the E4 supply clerk IN HIS OFFICE, then at various training units, finally at my duty station. The only difference is who gets in trouble and how much. In my experience, that depends more on how they are viewed in their unit and if someone wants to make a stink about it.
 
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Shakespeare37 said:
This is just not the case. My (former) BN Surgeon received a letter of reprimand and has still been promoted and continues to receive choice assignments. I'm not putting specifics out in a public forum, but the dude is killing it.

In my experience, that depends more on how they are viewed in their unit and if someone wants to make a stink about it.
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Really? You use one example to discount the whole thing? Recall that, on the line, only 25% are selected to O-6 from O-5. The reprimanded guy is going to get it?

I'll defer to others, but because one guy has a reprimand in his jacket and has gotten promoted doesn't mean that it isn't an impediment. Note I said "usually" - can you say that more than 50% with discipline in their files don't end their career?
 
Apollyon said:
Really? You use one example to discount the whole thing? Recall that, on the line, only 25% are selected to O-6 from O-5. The reprimanded guy is going to get it?

I'll defer to others, but because one guy has a reprimand in his jacket and has gotten promoted doesn't mean that it isn't an impediment. Note I said "usually" - can you say that more than 50% with discipline in their files don't end their career?
Click to expand...

I know, I know, n=1. I also didn't say it wasn't an impediment, just that it isn't a career killer. It's also going to depend on the specific case. I don't have any data on the total number of people who have LOR's who then stay at that rank/duty station whatever... so no I can't give specific numbers. PM for details, if you want. I'd hate to out the guy on here.
 
Shakespeare37 said:
I know, I know, n=1. I also didn't say it wasn't an impediment, just that it isn't a career killer. It's also going to depend on the specific case. I don't have any data on the total number of people who have LOR's who then stay at that rank/duty station whatever... so no I can't give specific numbers. PM for details, if you want. I'd hate to out the guy on here.
Click to expand...

No, no, I don't need details. It's just that it would be disingenuous to the more disreputable folks that think they can dirtbag and get away with it. At the same time, maybe it just lends credence to the line folks that refer to "staff pukes". My education applied to the line as for reprimands and D/C/non promotion.
 
Apollyon said:
Really? You use one example to discount the whole thing? Recall that, on the line, only 25% are selected to O-6 from O-5. The reprimanded guy is going to get it?

I'll defer to others, but because one guy has a reprimand in his jacket and has gotten promoted doesn't mean that it isn't an impediment. Note I said "usually" - can you say that more than 50% with discipline in their files don't end their career?
Click to expand...

Career-ender in the Navy, don't know about other services... In the Navy you won't even get promoted from O-2 to O-3 (usually automatic) if you have a LOR. You are definitely not getting through a board promotion process other than in a national emergency with that on your record.

We also have to be clear about the levels of discipline that can occur for officers. There are LOR's and non-punitive letters of caution, LORs stay in your record and NPLOC's are out as soon as your current CO leaves. Don't ask me how I know this.
 
grotto said:
Career-ender in the Navy, don't know about other services... In the Navy you won't even get promoted from O-2 to O-3 (usually automatic) if you have a LOR.
Click to expand...

Unless the numbers have changed, the USN promotion went as follows: O-1 to O-2, 100%. O-2 to O-3, 95%. From O-3 to O-4, I don't recall, O-4 to O-5 40%, and O-5 to O-6, 25%. (This is for line, not staff, officers.)

Now, to be the turd that didn't make the cut from JG to LT...hmm...
 
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