Are there any "lifestyle" specialties left?

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RadicalRadon said:
Yeah, no worries. It's pretty apparent from the responses in this thread that medicine has a great variety of personalities. My guess is both you and Law2doc are IM folks and it's easy to see the difference in personalities.

Med students generally can appreciate that different fields attract certain personalities and that's part of what draws them to that field. I wouldn't succeed in IM because it would cause me undue pain and misery... and I'd definitely quit :laugh:, so I'm opting for a field where I can excel because it plays to my strengths.
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No, I'm in general surgery, and he plays his cards to close to the vest that I don't know what he does, but I think it's non-surgical.
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ckdgusdl88 said:
I hear Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation can be lucrative if you open up your own rehab center. It's basically a very laid back specialty where PTs do all the manual labor. And PM&R is still easy to get into. It definitely isn't a prestigious specialty, but the OP never asked about that.
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They can also do pain which makes good $. At our hospital you have to get a rehab consult in order to have PT see a patient. So basically rehab comes by and says "yep this guy needs PT" and bill for a consult. It's a nice scheme.
 
TheProwler said:
No, I'm in general surgery, and he plays his cards to close to the vest that I don't know what he does, but I think it's non-surgical.
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I'm guessing, judging by past posts and his woe-is-me, Johnny Raincloud persona that L2D is an IM resident at a fairly large academic program.
 
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chrisisinnocent said:
They can also do pain which makes good $. At our hospital you have to get a rehab consult in order to have PT see a patient. So basically rehab comes by and says "yep this guy needs PT" and bill for a consult. It's a nice scheme.
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That's ridiculous. Our PT/OTs see the patient themselves and then follow along until they sign off because the patient doesn't need them or until the patient is discharged.
 
Slack3r said:
I'm guessing, judging by past posts and his woe-is-me, Johnny Raincloud persona that L2D is an IM resident at a fairly large academic program.
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If you've actually read any of my posts my posts, rather than put your own spin on them, I'm actually quite upbeat, and thrilled where my career trajectory has taken me, each and every step along the way. Enjoyed intern year, didn't find 30 hour call too insufferable, and so on. But I'm very much a stick it out and don't cry about it kind of person. It's all the whiners who don't want to do what the job involves, or who think medicine should yield to what they find more "humane" who are actually the "woe is me, Johnny Raincloud" types of which you speak. I think you are confusing me with my naysayers. I'm pretty much at the other extreme as the woe is me types.
 
Hey, Law2Doc, what type of resident are you?
 
Law2Doc said:
If you've actually read any of my posts my posts, rather than put your own spin on them, I'm actually quite upbeat, and thrilled where my career trajectory has taken me, each and every step along the way. Enjoyed intern year, didn't find 30 hour call too insufferable, and so on. But I'm very much a stick it out and don't cry about it kind of person. It's all the whiners who don't want to do what the job involves, or who think medicine should yield to what they find more "humane" who are actually the "woe is me, Johnny Raincloud" types of which you speak. I think you are confusing me with my naysayers. I'm pretty much at the other extreme as the woe is me types.
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Truth.

Hermeneutics said:
Hey, Law2Doc, what type of resident are you?
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The PGY-3 kind. And he wouldn't have even given you that much ;)
 
chrisisinnocent said:
They can also do pain which makes good $. At our hospital you have to get a rehab consult in order to have PT see a patient. So basically rehab comes by and says "yep this guy needs PT" and bill for a consult. It's a nice scheme.
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I feel like this is where the discussions always end up. For someone with this mindset, the holy grail is to find some sort of parasitic position where you can get gobs of money without having to actually do anything. Such positions exist because our health care system is so woefully inefficient and poorly designed. If you do manage to land yourself such a position, when people finally wise up that it's an extraneous position that offers minimal benefit to anyone, when people finally make moves to eliminate it, please have the decency to say, "Well, it's been a good run, I guess I'll have to actually do some work now." Don't do what people usually do, which is to fight tooth and nail to keep their absurd little loophole safe.
 
Law2Doc said:
There simply aren't enough former lawyers in medicine to tell you without outing myself, so I must decline. I've already given more background on myself than 99% of posters on here though, so that will have to be enough.
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Have you ever been recognized by your actual co-workers or friends? I've been figured out by a number of my classmates in the past - college, med school and now residency. Invariably, they just lurk on SDN...
 
Just wanted to confirm what this thread seems to be saying: "optho" is dead and no longer has an "h" between the p and the t. It's all boring, nobody can make a living doing it anymore, they're all working 70 hours per week, the future is grim and the optoms are taking it over. Please don't apply for the match this year if you are a competitive applicant. Leave all those Bascom spots open. Go into rads, you'll be happier there in the darkwomb. There's money in skin too.
 
mydodger said:
Just wanted to confirm what this thread seems to be saying: "optho" is dead and no longer has an "h" between the p and the t. It's all boring, nobody can make a living doing it anymore, they're all working 70 hours per week, the future is grim and the optoms are taking it over. Please don't apply for the match this year if you are a competitive applicant. Leave all those Bascom spots open. Go into rads, you'll be happier there in the darkwomb. There's money in skin too.
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I would say go into what you are interested in, and nevermind the nonsense outside perceptions of the specialty. All specialties have their haters, whether its surgery, medicine, rays, derm, path. So, nevermind what everyone else says and find what you like.
 
mydodger said:
Just wanted to confirm what this thread seems to be saying: "optho" is dead and no longer has an "h" between the p and the t. It's all boring, nobody can make a living doing it anymore, they're all working 70 hours per week, the future is grim and the optoms are taking it over. Please don't apply for the match this year if you are a competitive applicant. Leave all those Bascom spots open. Go into rads, you'll be happier there in the darkwomb. There's money in skin too.
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I think you are being sarcastic but just in case you are not you know I can't hold myself from butting in when you mention opto vs. ophtho lol. (plus it makes the forums more exciting)

But ophtho is still competitive because they are reducing their residency slot numbers. It will just be more surgical as time goes on. And to all the Shnurek haters, you might dislike the way I present myself but I show more factual evidence than anybody else criticizing me combined.

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As you can see the pay is lower than most other surgical sub-specialties and it may not be as in demand. Now you may ask why is this? Well I believe it is because Ophthalmology is the only medical specialty with a non-MD/DO doctoral level, strong lobbied counterpart that is part mid-level and part physician. Dentists do not have an MD equivalent, Podiatrists may have some tension with Orthopaedic Surgeons but there is no tension in healthcare like opto vs. ophtho.

But in the end I say, do what you love and get your vision checked before you choose a microsurgical sub-specialty like ophthalmology! You need good stereopsis, color vision and being myopic helps a bit too!
 

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mydodger said:
Just wanted to confirm what this thread seems to be saying: "optho" is dead and no longer has an "h" between the p and the t. It's all boring, nobody can make a living doing it anymore, they're all working 70 hours per week, the future is grim and the optoms are taking it over. Please don't apply for the match this year if you are a competitive applicant. Leave all those Bascom spots open. Go into rads, you'll be happier there in the darkwomb. There's money in skin too.
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It's all cyclical -- whats popular today won't be tomorrow and vice versa. As long as you have a few years between when you select a specialty and when you actually will practice, things are gonna change. And optho has long been abbreviated to not include the extra h, even though we all know how to spell.
 
wacritchlow said:
Why would you possibly go through all this stress, hard work, years of servitude, etc., for just a job? It sounds like you don't appreciate the privilege of becoming a physician. If you want "just a job" to make money, go to business or law school.

I want a good lifestyle too- but I also realize that being a doctor will never be "just a job." That's sad.
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Law2Doc said:
And optho has long been abbreviated to not include the extra h, even though we all know how to spell.
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Maybe in pronunciation, but not in spelling (unless you also want to defend the newly embraced national phenomenon of pluralizing with apostrophes). And even if there is some special "drop the H" club, the problem is that no one has any way of knowing who's a member and who's simply a dolt, so everyone ends up getting tossed into the "dolt" category by default. Which is usually the safer bet anyway.
 
mydodger said:
Just wanted to confirm what this thread seems to be saying: "optho" is dead and no longer has an "h" between the p and the t. It's all boring, nobody can make a living doing it anymore, they're all working 70 hours per week, the future is grim and the optoms are taking it over. Please don't apply for the match this year if you are a competitive applicant. Leave all those Bascom spots open. Go into rads, you'll be happier there in the darkwomb. There's money in skin too.
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Sounds good.:thumbup:

I'll be happy to avoid a field where I have to call Shnurek a colleague.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Maybe in pronunciation, but not in spelling (unless you also want to defend the newly embraced national phenomenon of pluralizing with apostrophes). And even if there is some special "drop the H" club, the problem is that no one has any way of knowing who's a member and who's simply a dolt, so everyone ends up getting tossed into the "dolt" category by default. Which is usually the safer bet anyway.
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Or it might be the person who doesn't realize that an abbreviation has been used by for decades could be the dolt perhaps? :laugh:
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Maybe in pronunciation, but not in spelling (unless you also want to defend the newly embraced national phenomenon of pluralizing with apostrophes). And even if there is some special "drop the H" club, the problem is that no one has any way of knowing who's a member and who's simply a dolt, so everyone ends up getting tossed into the "dolt" category by default. Which is usually the safer bet anyway.
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So you would have written it as ophtha?

And how many dolts have the slightest clue what "optho" would even refer to?
 
TheProwler said:
So you would have written it as ophtha?

And how many dolts have the slightest clue what "optho" would even refer to?
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I realize you enjoy defending L2D regularly, but you're creating weak arguments here bordering on strawmen.

Next thing you'll tell me is that people started writing "optho" for a reason other than the fact that they didn't know the first "h" belonged there.

There are a lot of dolts in medicine [I'd invite you or anyone else to refrain from jumping at this golden chance to point the finger at me]. Many of them know what "optho" would refer to.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
I realize you enjoy defending L2D regularly, but you're creating weak arguments here bordering on strawmen.

Next thing you'll tell me is that people started writing "optho" for a reason other than the fact that they didn't know the first "h" belonged there.

There are a lot of dolts in medicine [I'd invite you or anyone else to refrain from jumping at this golden chance to point the finger at me]. Many of them know what "optho" would refer to.
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Optho is an abbreviation that was being used long before anyone in this thread was a premed. This wasn't made up here. You can't come along decades later and unilaterally proclaim everyone who came before dolts who don't know how to spell.
 
In OP's defense, I think most of us have wondered the same. That doesn't make us scumbags, it makes us practical. We're scumbags (and stupid) if we do it ONLY for the money. The cost/benefit ratio doesn't add up on that one. Ibanking or management consulting for sure.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Next thing you'll tell me is that people started writing "optho" for a reason other than the fact that they didn't know the first "h" belonged there.

There are a lot of dolts in medicine [I'd invite you or anyone else to refrain from jumping at this golden chance to point the finger at me]. Many of them know what "optho" would refer to.
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So which of these reasons was it that made you spell it wrong too?

GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
For the most part, I agree, but with a caveat: for competitive specialties that either have few programs nationally or few spots per program (derm, ophtho, uro, rad onc), it can at least influence your experience when 4th year rolls around.
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GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
I was under the impression that Penn/Scheie was a top Ophtho program.
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Ophtho, huh? Where's the second O come from?

Lighten up, Francis.
 
realmeaning said:
In OP's defense, I think most of us have wondered the same. That doesn't make us scumbags, it makes us practical. We're scumbags (and stupid) if we do it ONLY for the money. The cost/benefit ratio doesn't add up on that one. Ibanking or management consulting for sure.
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I would add that you can also be a scumbag if, having gotten yourself a cushy sinecure, you then fight to keep it around once sensible people realize that its unnecessary.
 
Shnurek said:
I think you are being sarcastic but just in case you are not you know I can't hold myself from butting in when you mention opto vs. ophtho lol. (plus it makes the forums more exciting)
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I think you're the only one that got the sarcasm. I thought I was being pretty overtly ridiculous, but I guess not.
 
VisionaryTics said:
This thread has officially gone full ******.
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Full ******? Why is starred out?





People, do what you want to do. Ophthalmology is pretty awesome--in my opinion operating on the eye is second only to operating on the brain.

YOU ARE GOING TO DIE SOMEDAY. Do what you enjoy doing.
 
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CaptainSSO said:
Full ******? Why is starred out?





People, do what you want to do. Ophthalmology is pretty awesome--in my opinion operating on the eye is second only to operating on the brain.

YOU ARE GOING TO DIE SOMEDAY. Do what you enjoy doing.
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Operating on the eye is operating on the brain. :D
 
CaptainSSO said:
People, do what you want to do. Ophthalmology is pretty awesome--in my opinion operating on the eye is second only to operating on the brain.
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:barf:
:barf:
:barf:
:barf:
:barf:
:barf:

Eyeballs freak me the hell out. That is the one specialty I will never, ever choose for that reason alone.

Anyway, I agree with this guy...

RadicalRadon said:
In my opinion, there is nothing more important than the work-life balance. If you make medicine everything in your life, you're bound to be miserable at some point. I'm sorry but my wife and children will take precedence over my work hours... and being in a specialty that allows me to adhere to this rule is very important to me. I also feel the responsibility to bring home as much income as possible for my family's future financial security. People in certain other fields work a lot less than the laziest physicians and make a whole lot more. Spare me the criticism about how I'm a terrible person for feeling this way :rolleyes:
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Geekchick921 said:
Anyway, I agree with this guy...
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I agree with his statement also, we just have drastically different opinions of work life balance. He's come out to say that a person working over 50 hours will lack balance. I believe you can still find balance working 60 hrs each week, that could be on 12 hrs 5 days per week, with 2 days off. Not sure how it would be tough to find balance with that schedule.
 
JackShephard MD said:
I agree with his statement also, we just have drastically different opinions of work life balance. He's come out to say that a person working over 50 hours will lack balance. I believe you can still find balance working 60 hrs each week, that could be on 12 hrs 5 days per week, with 2 days off. Not sure how it would be tough to find balance with that schedule.
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Well...if one's going to be balanced, they should be certain to get the recommended amount of sleep for their health's sake. 8 hours is the often cited mean, no?

So, work 12 hours per day + 8 hours of sleep... we're at 20 hours per day accounted for, thus far.

Let's not forget a bit of exercise everyday, health comes first. Say 30 minutes. We will be conservative and say that our hypothetical profesional only commutes 30 minutes per day total as well (i.e. big cities, forgettaboutit!)...better not have to stop at the grocery store for some milk either!

We're at 21 hours accounted for...add in 30 minutes total for daily bathroom tasks (showering, brushing teeth, flossing, sitting on the throne, et al).

We have 2.5 hours left with our conservative figures.

Does 2.5 hours leave one balanced in the family life category? It depends on the person...What does only 2.5 hours permit...eating dinner (unless you missed it), cleaning up and watching a TV show?

But, don't forget we excluded any house work, maintenance, etc that will need done on occasion. I don't know many wives willing to get in crawl spaces to fix leaky pipes. :D We also skipped the idea of that little thing called "call". And we skipped having any personal hobbies that you enjoy. And we skipped taking the time to have sex with said wife...unless that is only a weekend thing for some professionals. :smuggrin:

If one doesn't have kids, I would agree with you. No problem. But kids need parental guidance/support every single day of the week -- not just on weekends.
 
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Blais said:
Well...if one's going to be balanced, they should be certain to get the recommended amount of sleep for their health's sake. 8 hours is the often cited mean, no?

So, work 12 hours per day + 8 hours of sleep... we're at 20 hours per day accounted for, thus far.

Let's not forget a bit of exercise everyday, health comes first. Say 30 minutes. We will be conservative and say that our hypothetical profesional only commutes 30 minutes per day total as well (i.e. big cities, forgettaboutit!)...better not have to stop at the grocery store for some milk either!

We're at 21 hours accounted for...add in 30 minutes total for daily bathroom tasks (showering, brushing teeth, flossing, sitting on the throne, et al).

We have 2.5 hours left with our conservative figures.

Does 2.5 hours leave one balanced in the family life category? It depends on the person...What does only 2.5 hours permit...eating dinner (unless you missed it), cleaning up and watching a TV show?

But, don't forget we excluded any house work, maintenance, etc that will need done on occasion. I don't know many wives willing to get in crawl spaces to fix leaky pipes. :D We also skipped the idea of that little thing called "call". And we skipped having any personal hobbies that you enjoy. And we skipped taking the time to have sex with said wife...unless that is only a weekend thing for some professionals. :smuggrin:

If one doesn't have kids, I would agree with you. No problem. But kids need parental guidance/support every single day of the week -- not just on weekends.
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Well you're going to have to pick like one of 3 specialties that you can work less hours in.

Unless you're dead set on dermatology, medicine isn't exactly the best profession to enter if you don't want to work long hours. That's just common sense.

I just find it pretty funny you make a "I've got this all figured out" post to JackSheperd when you're the one who willingly entered a profession that every person on the planet knows tends to have long working hours.
 
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Blais said:
Well...if one's going to be balanced, they should be certain to get the recommended amount of sleep for their health's sake. 8 hours is the often cited mean, no?

So, work 12 hours per day + 8 hours of sleep... we're at 20 hours per day accounted for, thus far.

Let's not forget a bit of exercise everyday, health comes first. Say 30 minutes. We will be conservative and say that our hypothetical profesional only commutes 30 minutes per day total as well (i.e. big cities, forgettaboutit!)...better not have to stop at the grocery store for some milk either!

We're at 21 hours accounted for...add in 30 minutes total for daily bathroom tasks (showering, brushing teeth, flossing, sitting on the throne, et al).

We have 2.5 hours left with our conservative figures.

Does 2.5 hours leave one balanced in the family life category? It depends on the person...What does only 2.5 hours permit...eating dinner (unless you missed it), cleaning up and watching a TV show?

But, don't forget we excluded any house work, maintenance, etc that will need done on occasion. I don't know many wives willing to get in crawl spaces to fix leaky pipes. :D We also skipped the idea of that little thing called "call". And we skipped having any personal hobbies that you enjoy. And we skipped taking the time to have sex with said wife...unless that is only a weekend thing for some professionals. :smuggrin:

If one doesn't have kids, I would agree with you. No problem. But kids need parental guidance/support every single day of the week -- not just on weekends.
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Well not too many people work 60 hours like that, with 12 hours per day. Many people take call and include that in. So 7-5 x4d, 7-1 on a friday and a call night 5pm - 7am (which you may get some good sleep, depends on how busy) puts you at 60 hours (which part of it you may be sleeping) would be more typical.

People always cite 8 hours of sleep - you won't get that. Get used to it, and its probably not needed. 6 is what you should aim for as a doc, you adjust. In your example, That leaves you ~6 hours a day to do what you wanna do. You have to get creative to ensure the best use of your time. I dont have control over my schedule but some things ive done to make best use of my time:

1. Make commute as small as possible, better yet live walkable distance (not always possible but try)
2. If you commute, try to get your studying done through audiotapes, call your parents/siblings/friends on the way so you feel like you're staying in touch
3. Exercise with your partner/family so you at least feel like spending time with them. or workout on call/at lunch at work - many hospitals have gym facilities
4. Hire people to do the chores - Sometimes difficult on the income we get in training, but well worth it for the time it frees up for you and family.
5. Dont waste time writing/lurking on SDN and be with your family/friends instead
 
Shnurek said:
As you can see the pay is lower than most other surgical sub-specialties and it may not be as in demand.
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I hate you for making me post this data to refute your nonsensical claims. You are too ignorant to realize your data doesn't make any sense. The data you made those graphs with have n=10-15 and are from a survey of NYC residents. You are generalizing this ridiculous sample to a field with thousands of professionals? ARE YOU KIDDING? Clearly, EBM is not taught in OD school based on my sample of n=Sh'rek.

The number of ophthalmology spots is increasing and the salaries are nowhere near as low as you mention. They are on par with the highest surgical subspecialities (retina and occuloplastics can rival spine surgery). The mean is 376k according to 2010 AGMA survey data (see attached).

Get over it. No one cares about your inaccurate BS charts/graphs/figures/calculus problems. ODs check your vision and fit you for contacts. MDs treat medical and surgical problems of the eye.

match_report.pdf


Shnurek=
8451d_ORIG-full_retard.jpg
 

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CaptainSSO said:
I just find it pretty funny you make a "I've got this all figured out" post to JackSheperd when you're the one who willingly entered a profession that every person on the planet knows tends to have long working hours.
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Except that not all physicians work long hours. You can happily work in derm, ophtho, rads, anesthesia, rad onc, path, EM, family med, allergy, psych, sleep med with a <50hr work week, if you want. It's BS when people say a ">60 hr work week" is normal. It's not. It leads to burnout.
 
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CaptainSSO said:
I just find it pretty funny you make a "I've got this all figured out" post to JackSheperd when you're the one who willingly entered a profession that every person on the planet knows tends to have long working hours.
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And this is funny to me being that my specialties of interest actually are friendly to having a family life... in fact, just as important, they don't require the meticulous level of scheduling by the minute as outlined in my earlier post (such as required by those balanced 60 hr folk). See the following post by RadicalRadon. I guess I'm just lucky that my initial impetus and future research interests organically align with some of these fields. The nice thing is that these 3 specialties follow a spectrum more or less, so no matter how "competitive" I end up being come application season -- I'll match in something that I enjoy.

RadicalRadon said:
Except that not all physicians work long hours. You can happily work in derm, ophtho, rads, anesthesia, rad onc, path, EM, family med, allergy, psych, sleep med with a <50hr work week, if you want. It's BS when people say a ">60 hr work week" is normal. It's not. It leads to burnout.
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Yea, he typically likes to try to pick apart posts, that CaptainSSO does. Whatever floats his boat.
 
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todds said:
Well not too many people work 60 hours like that, with 12 hours per day. Many people take call and include that in. So 7-5 x4d, 7-1 on a friday and a call night 5pm - 7am (which you may get some good sleep, depends on how busy) puts you at 60 hours (which part of it you may be sleeping) would be more typical.

People always cite 8 hours of sleep - you won't get that. Get used to it, and its probably not needed. 6 is what you should aim for as a doc, you adjust. In your example, That leaves you ~6 hours a day to do what you wanna do. You have to get creative to ensure the best use of your time. I dont have control over my schedule but some things ive done to make best use of my time:

1. Make commute as small as possible, better yet live walkable distance (not always possible but try)
2. If you commute, try to get your studying done through audiotapes, call your parents/siblings/friends on the way so you feel like you're staying in touch
3. Exercise with your partner/family so you at least feel like spending time with them. or workout on call/at lunch at work - many hospitals have gym facilities
4. Hire people to do the chores - Sometimes difficult on the income we get in training, but well worth it for the time it frees up for you and family.
5. Dont waste time writing/lurking on SDN and be with your family/friends instead
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insightful post... 6 hours is certainly much more doable on the family front.

However, my post was simply in response to the hypothetical "it is not hard to balance everything while working 12 hours per day for 5 days a week".
 
Blais said:
insightful post... 6 hours is certainly much more doable on the family front.

However, my post was simply in response to the hypothetical "it is not hard to balance everything while working 12 hours per day for 5 days a week".
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Sleep 6 hours a non call night, not 8. Brush your teeth in the shower and floss while on the can. Wear scrubs so you don't waste time doing laundry. Skip the gym one day a week and use the stairs instead of the elevator. Now you have balance.
 
8 hrs? lol 7 hours seems like the mean nowadays :p
 
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