I am confused! Please help!

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shadyicekid

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I've read many threads from "low gpa success stories" to "what are my chances with a sub 3.0 GPA with high mcat". Since they already exist, I'm not asking what my chances are, but the responses from some of the current medical students and other experienced people on SDN seem very condescending to those who are in this situation.

I'm sure many of you have seen the GPA vs MCAT grid of applicants to matriculants: https://www.aamc.org/download/270906/data/table24-mcatgpagridall0911.pdf .

The thing is that, very often, I hear "don't even consider medical school with that gpa" or "your application won't even make it past the initial screening". However, for example, on the grid in the link above, 32.5% of those with a 33-35 MCAT and 2.80-2.99 GPA were accepted into at least one U.S. allopathic medical school. ONE THIRD! I thought this was shockingly high considering the discouraging comments I've been reading.

So my question is, am I interpreting this table incorrectly? Are there significant factors (other than ECs, LORs, etc.) that I am not considering? Thanks.:thumbup:
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I would yell TROLL, but you've only been a member of SDN for like a week.
 
I am not one to give advice but why don't you check "MD applicant" and see if there are people in your situation that got into medical school. Make sure to compare and contrast your stats with theirs.
 
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IslandStyle808 said:
I am not one to give advice but why don't you check "MD applicant" and see if there are people in your situation that got into medical school. Make sure to compare and contrast your stats with theirs.
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Thanks for the advice. But any comments on the table that's posted above?
 
You CAN get into medical school with that kind of GPA, but it certainly isn't doing you any favors. Many schools will not look at your application, but with an MCAT of 35 you may raise some eyebrows and draw interest. If there is anything you can do to raise your GPA between now and your applications, do it. Putting yourself above the 3.0 range will make you significantly more competitive.

Good luck!
 
DoctorWhoo said:
You CAN get into medical school with that kind of GPA, but it certainly isn't doing you any favors. Many schools will not look at your application, but with an MCAT of 35 you may raise some eyebrows and draw interest. If there is anything you can do to raise your GPA between now and your applications, do it. Putting yourself above the 3.0 range will make you significantly more competitive.

Good luck!
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Thanks DoctorWhoo for your input. I am actually not applying this cycle and have about 60 units planned out to raise my gpa for this coming year and attempt to apply next cycle. I'm prepared to do 2 years if necessary. However, getting too far above a 3.0 is unlikely just considering that I have a bachelor's degree already with about 200 units. I'd have to take way too many units to do that, but my plan is to show that I can get a solid ~4.0 full time for at least a year. And if I get into the 3.0 range, the table on the AAMC website shows a hopeful percentage.
 
The chart is odd...there are kids getting in with 15 MCAT and 3.0. There are kids not getting in with 40 MCAT and 4.0. Who knows what other factors. Maybe some of the 15 MCATs knew someone on the admissions committee or gave a big donation to the school. Maybe some 4.0/40s had zero extracurriculars and/or had terrible interviews. For screening purposes, most schools have some sort of screen that looks at the MCAT + 10 times the GPA. So in your example, a 2.99, 35 MCAT isnt actually that bad. It is essentially the same as a 3.5 and 30 MCAT.
 
TimKita said:
The chart is odd...there are kids getting in with 15 MCAT and 3.0. There are kids not getting in with 40 MCAT and 4.0. Who knows what other factors. Maybe some of the 15 MCATs knew someone on the admissions committee or gave a big donation to the school. Maybe some 4.0/40s had zero extracurriculars and/or had terrible interviews. For screening purposes, most schools have some sort of screen that looks at the MCAT + 10 times the GPA. So in your example, a 2.99, 35 MCAT isnt actually that bad. It is essentially the same as a 3.5 and 30 MCAT.
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To add to that, some of the 40/4.0's may also have been too picky. If you only apply to Harvard you could "not get into medical school" even with killer stats.
 
TimKita said:
The chart is odd...there are kids getting in with 15 MCAT and 3.0. There are kids not getting in with 40 MCAT and 4.0. Who knows what other factors. Maybe some of the 15 MCATs knew someone on the admissions committee or gave a big donation to the school. Maybe some 4.0/40s had zero extracurriculars and/or had terrible interviews. For screening purposes, most schools have some sort of screen that looks at the MCAT + 10 times the GPA. So in your example, a 2.99, 35 MCAT isnt actually that bad. It is essentially the same as a 3.5 and 30 MCAT.
Click to expand...

DoctorWhoo said:
To add to that, some of the 40/4.0's may also have been too picky. If you only apply to Harvard you could "not get into medical school" even with killer stats.
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Very good points. Thank you guys. I've heard mixed reviews of the GPA x 10 + MCAT formula. Has anyone heard from an adcom or other reliable source if this is actually practiced?
 
shadyicekid said:
Very good points. Thank you guys. I've heard mixed reviews of the GPA x 10 + MCAT formula. Has anyone heard from an adcom or other reliable source if this is actually practiced?
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It's referred to as the 'LizzyM' score for a reason...she's one of the most active adcoms on SDN, and she often discusses that formula! It's pretty much the only quantitative predictor you have, so while it's not perfect, it's one of your best indicators. Search for 'Ask LizzyM Anything' and you'll find an entire thread (like 17 pages) of an adcom from a top school answering admissions questions. It's closed now, but I found it super helpful!
 
mehc012 said:
It's referred to as the 'LizzyM' score for a reason...she's one of the most active adcoms on SDN, and she often discusses that formula! It's pretty much the only quantitative predictor you have, so while it's not perfect, it's one of your best indicators. Search for 'Ask LizzyM Anything' and you'll find an entire thread (like 17 pages) of an adcom from a top school answering admissions questions. It's closed now, but I found it super helpful!
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There's so much information on that thread. Still taking it in and digesting. Thanks a lot.
 
So what is the LizzyM formula? I went on that site you suggested, and while I found lots of discussion, I didn't find the formula. Is this it:
GPA x 10 + MCAT formula.
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Thank you LizzyM! I'm fascinated that your formula also includes student's gpa compared to school's average.
 
Lucky Louie said:
Thank you LizzyM! I'm fascinated that your formula also includes student's gpa compared to school's average.
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Look at her post. If you're GPA is a 3.5 and MCAT is 32. Your LizzyM is 67. If a school's GPA is 3.6 and MCAT is 31. The LizzyM for that school is also 67. Therefore it would be suggested, excluding non-quantitative factors, that you apply to that school.
 
muhali3 said:
Look at her post. If you're GPA is a 3.5 and MCAT is 32. Your LizzyM is 67. If a medicalschool's GPA is 3.6 and MCAT is 31. The LizzyM for that medicalschool is also 67. Therefore it would be suggested, excluding non-quantitative factors, that you apply to that medschool.
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Exactly. Of course, in comparing your LizzyM score to a medical school's score, you should also consider whether a school if friendly to out of state (OOS) applicants and if its mission meshes with your own. (For example, the schools in Puerto Rico and the schools that are historically black are looking for students who fit with their specific missions.)
 
lol...I assume med school was implied, but yeah.
 
muhali3 said:
lol...I assume med school was implied, but yeah.
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It seemed to me that the the OP might have been unclear on the concept and was comparing to his own undergrad's average gpa and MCAT (if one would even have that information).

:idea: Actually, that would be fascinating although I'd rather see grids like AMCAS publishes with gpa by MCAT for specific undergrad institutions. That would identify the schools with applicants who test well but suffer from grade deflation and those with inflation.
 
Lizzy said:
Actually, that would be fascinating although I'd rather see grids like AMCAS publishes with gpa by MCAT for specific undergrad institutions. That would identify the schools with applicants who test well but suffer from grade deflation and those with inflation.
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Is this why you include a school-specific comparison?
Lizzy said:
compare to school's average gpa (10) + school's average MCAT.
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How would that information factor into your chances? This school has a notoriously low gpa average (about 3.1) yet it has tons of pre-meds and is a tippy-top ms.
 
LizzyM said:
It seemed to me that the the OP might have been unclear on the concept and was comparing to his own undergrad's average gpa and MCAT (if one would even have that information).

:idea: Actually, that would be fascinating although I'd rather see grids like AMCAS publishes with gpa by MCAT for specific undergrad institutions. That would identify the schools with applicants who test well but suffer from grade deflation and those with inflation.
Click to expand...

I can't believe both catalystik and LizzyM responded to my thread!:love:

I don't even know what to ask because you deal with top tier students while I am a struggling post-bacc route premed. Maybe it'd be best to just lay out my background. I took the july 6 mcat and received a 35Q (13,10,12) PVB, have a 2.9 gpa:mad: am starting my 2nd year at my university neurological surg department in clinical research and have a year of post bacc classes planned for this coming year. I didn't even bother to apply this cycle with my gpa and nothing academically to show for improvement or dedication but plan on applying next cycle. While i wait to hear back I will continue to be taking classes.

Any suggestions or modifications I should make to my plan? I've been told man times that I'm being unrealistic but simply, I love medicine and find it worth the next couple difficult years if it means I have a shot.

Thanks in advance!
 
shady, don't give up! You have a really good plan in place and with your 35 MCAT, you've got the basics. You probably messed up in UG, thinking a few B- weren't too bad. Just keep it up! I admire you for your tenacity.
 
Lucky Louie said:
Is this why you include a school-specific comparison? How would that information factor into your chances? This school has a notoriously low gpa average (about 3.1) yet it has tons of pre-meds and is a tippy-top ms.
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You seem to be confusing two different things, Lucky Louie. To use a LizzyM score, you compare your average gpa and your average MCAT combined (gpa*10+MCAT) to the average gpa * 10+average MCAT of your target medical school. Schools publish this information for their matriculated students and AMCAS publishes it for those accepted (hint: the accepted is almost always higher than the matricuated because the people with the highest stats often hold 6 or more offers and contribute to the average at each of those schools but matriculate at only one).

Separately, I'm saying that a grid like the one published by AMCAS of number of applicants and matriculants by gpa and MCAT would be interesting if shown if available by undergraduate institution. This is separate from LizzyM score and medical schools, but something I'd find interesting for schools like U Chicago and Cal Tech.


Shadyicekid, making the assumption that you are not URM, I'd estimate your chances of being admitted at 40% which is slightly less than average. A strong upward trend and a hurt gpa due to courses unrelated to medicine (pursuing something that you struggled with) followed by a strong post-bacc (3.67 or better) will be a big help. Do consider DO schools as they are much more holistic in assessing applicants.
 
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Many schools also use a similar approach to the LizzyM score, but with a different formula. In some cases, specific schools could emphasize MCAT more, in which case a sub-3.0 would be less detrimental. I have heard that schools often also compile data on GPA vs. MCAT score to better determine whether the specific schools inflate of deflate GPA's, in a sense normalizing GPA based on MCAT score. Obviously every school is different, but there is always hope, even with a low GPA.
 
Lucky Louie said:
shady, don't give up! You have a really good plan in place and with your 35 MCAT, you've got the basics. You probably messed up in UG, thinking a few B- weren't too bad. Just keep it up! I admire you for your tenacity.
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Thanks for the encouragement Louie! I've heard my fair share of downer comments and it's refreshing to have some reinforcement. It will be a longer journey, but I'm hopeful that my efforts will pay off. Time to become a hermit for a year or so :laugh:

LizzyM said:
Shadyicekid, making the assumption that you are not URM, I'd estimate your chances of being admitted at 40% which is slightly less than average. A strong upward trend and a hurt gpa due to courses unrelated to medicine (pursuing something that you struggled with) followed by a strong post-bacc (3.67 or better) will be a big help. Do consider DO schools as they are much more holistic in assessing applicants.
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I actually work closely with a DO and am very open to this route and have read up about the philosophy and subsequent path. I think I am leaning toward the allopathic route more due to tradition and possibly even pride, but that has changed much since the beginning of my journey.

By the way, I'm a South Korean, and I don't think that qualifies as being a URM, but I hold your estimate very highly (while keeping in mind it is an estimate). Thanks again for your undercover work here, Bruce Wayne.

boshtrich said:
Many schools also use a similar approach to the LizzyM score, but with a different formula. In some cases, specific schools could emphasize MCAT more, in which case a sub-3.0 would be less detrimental. I have heard that schools often also compile data on GPA vs. MCAT score to better determine whether the specific schools inflate of deflate GPA's, in a sense normalizing GPA based on MCAT score. Obviously every school is different, but there is always hope, even with a low GPA.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input, Boshtrich! Would you happen to know the names of any schools that tend to weigh the MCAT heavier?
 
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