Why is getting into med school such a crap shoot?

Dmizrahi said:

So i've been doing a lot of investigating into the process of applying to medical school and it doesn't seem like there is any simple formula for being accepted to any certain medical school. For instance, what would be an ideal candidate that med schools would be fighting over to attend their schools? I feel like the acceptance/application process is an absolute crap shoot. I would think a 3.9 GPA and 38 MCAT with clinical experience, volunteering, EC's and some level a research would be an ideal candidate to get in anwhere, but apparently not? Can someone explain this discrepency/mystery to me?

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There are interviews.

You can have all that and still be a complete tool.

(That's just my guess)

Dmizrahi said:

Well i mean how much can you feel someone out from just an interview? And even if you can...what constitutes a tool? Someone who has gone through all of this just for the **** of it?

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Hey I'm just saying that the subjective nature of the interview accounts for at least some of the "crap-shoot" -ness of Med school applications.

And I think you'd have to be a huge @$$ (think you're God's gift to medicine, mention repeatedly how you're only in it for the money, etc) to screw up stats like the ones you mentioned. I'm sure it's happened in the past.

Dmizrahi said:

So i've been doing a lot of investigating into the process of applying to medical school and it doesn't seem like there is any simple formula for being accepted to any certain medical school. For instance, what would be an ideal candidate that med schools would be fighting over to attend their schools? I feel like the acceptance/application process is an absolute crap shoot. I would think a 3.9 GPA and 38 MCAT with clinical experience, volunteering, EC's and some level a research would be an ideal candidate to get in anwhere, but apparently not? Can someone explain this discrepency/mystery to me?

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Sure. It's not really a crap shoot or random, but applicants do not get to see what the adcoms get to see, and there are a ton of subjective components in the process. There is method to the madness, but the vantage point of applicants doesn't allow them to see the method. Evaluating the PS is a subjective task. Evaluating thru an interview is a subjective task. Not all ECs, and research and background stories are equal. Not all adcoms are as interested in the same things -- some more interested in research, still others emphasizing things like community service. Schools are trying to put together a high credentialed, multi-faceted, interesting and diverse class, composed of folks who they feel would be a "good fit" for the school. So there will be folks with stats, both high and low, that cannot easilly be reconciled based on looking at MSAR and USNews info. Hope that clarifies.

The desire to have a diverse class adds to the crapshoot. (Not only racial but age, sex, geographical, extracurricular)

LORs can carry a lot of weight too.

I also think that people have real differences in what qualities they believe are important to becoming a good physician, and that in many cases there is a specific institutional culture developed around what particular qualities a school likes to see as well.

The ratio of spots to students is a lot less favorable when applying to med school than when applying to college. That, combined with the increased difficulty in applying to med compared to applying to uni, makes the process seem ridiculous.

BrettBatchelor said:

The desire to have a diverse class adds to the crapshoot. (Not only racial but age, sex, geographical, extracurricular)

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Again, There is a system. So not a crapshoot (which implies pure application of chance). Not random. Just not one you can see from the outside, or tailor your app to easilly.

Dmizrahi said:

I would think a 3.9 GPA and 38 MCAT with clinical experience, volunteering, EC's and some level a research would be an ideal candidate to get in anwhere, but apparently not? Can someone explain this discrepency/mystery to me?

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With those stats, I strongly believe that you'll get in SOMEWHERE but not anywhere. But if you're looking to get into the top 10 or 20 schools, then yes it will be a crapshoot even with those numbers. The simplest explanation is that all the applicants to those schools have superb applications as well so it's hard to determine who's more deserving of being accepted.

Timing is another key factor that makes things seem random. Adcoms don't know what to expect early in the process, so they're more open with interview invites--apply later with the same stats, you may well get stiffed. Also, your app will be read by one of several people, some of whom are likely marginally more lenient than others. All sorts of crazy things happen when you're dealing with a huge population (the applicant pool).

Dmizrahi said:

I mean from a allopathic schools p.o.v, what would be more important to you: A "diverse" class or students which excell increasing the notority and reputation of the school?

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I don't know if notoriety is the word you wanted. But med schools are looking for a class composed of folks who are both excellent academically and excell in other areas. So they may be happy taking a student with slightly more average academic stats with more amazing ECs and experiences, and who interviews well. A 3.9/38 and pretty generic premed experiences doesn't always translate into the best applicant. But if you have amazing ECs and interview well, those numbers are an awesome launching pad.

Law2Doc said:

Sure. It's not really a crap shoot or random, but applicants do not get to see what the adcoms get to see, and there are a ton of subjective components in the process. There is method to the madness, but the vantage point of applicants doesn't allow them to see the method. Evaluating the PS is a subjective task. Evaluating thru an interview is a subjective task. Not all ECs, and research and background stories are equal. Not all adcoms are as interested in the same things -- some more interested in research, still others emphasizing things like community service. Schools are trying to put together a high credentialed, multi-faceted, interesting and diverse class, composed of folks who they feel would be a "good fit" for the school. So there will be folks with stats, both high and low, that cannot easilly be reconciled based on looking at MSAR and USNews info. Hope that clarifies.

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What he said. A big one I encountered was the general aim of the school. Some schools are all about research, others primary care, and if you say you want to do the other... SOL. In the end it's almost like an unofficial match process. The school needs some type of student to fit their class, and hopefully you're it.

To think that back in the day it was all by the numbers until the Harvard started using "the whole picture" to exclude jews.

Dmizrahi said:

What if your dream school is a research school, you have great stats, great EC's, great interview, but no research only because it was difficult for you to get involved into research you found interesting or it was difficult to find time?

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Why is it your dream school?

Dmizrahi said:

It doesn't seem like there is any simple formula for being accepted to any certain medical school.

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There is a simple formula for getting into med school. It's difficult to execute, but it's not complicated.

Getting into one particular med school (pick a med school, any med school), however, is a crap shoot. This is why you don't apply to only 5 schools, I don't care what your stats are. *cough*dope*cough*

And yes, I agree with Brett. This crap shoot part has a lot to do with admision committees searching for a class that will be both diverse and cohesive.

Grades, MCAT, ECs, and LORs will get you an interview

Everything past that is your own fault....or the others who got interviewed as awesome

It is an absolute crap shoot. I also had good grades and was very disappointed. The schools absolutely lie about their average GPA, MCAT acceptances. They like to take those from affiliated schools and people who "know" those on the acceptance committies. Plus, they have a quota for how many minorities they take in and only take in a certain percentage of white males. The whole interview process is just to sort out crazy people and it is used to cover up the fact that it is a crapshoot (Bec. if they don't take a white male with a 3.8 and high MCAT, they say "the interview didn't go well"). Also, I know from my experiences that the Medical Schools look down on city and public universities even though they are usually harder than private schools. This is why some individuals get accepted with low grades and some don't get accepted with very high grades.

If I were in charge, I would clean up this mess.

Dmizrahi said:

What if your dream school is a research school, you have great stats, great EC's, great interview, but no research only because it was difficult for you to get involved into research you found interesting or it was difficult to find time?

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then less time should've been spent on other ECs (if time was truly the issue).

if you couldn't find anything "interesting" that may not be the best excuse. most research that undergraduates perform is neither exciting nor cutting edge, but its importance lies in training and teaching students to do quality research. Futhermore, lots of projects seem uninteresting from an outside perspective, but turn out to be truly enjoyable and interesting once you are involved in the project. In short, if you want to goto a med school that emphasizes research and you couldn't find time for research then you are putting yourself at a great disadvantage.

Dmizrahi said:

So i've been doing a lot of investigating into the process of applying to medical school and it doesn't seem like there is any simple formula for being accepted to any certain medical school. For instance, what would be an ideal candidate that med schools would be fighting over to attend their schools? I feel like the acceptance/application process is an absolute crap shoot. I would think a 3.9 GPA and 38 MCAT with clinical experience, volunteering, EC's and some level a research would be an ideal candidate to get in anwhere, but apparently not? Can someone explain this discrepency/mystery to me?

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I don't know what adcom members are thinking when they are interviewing candidates, but I know what I would be thinking: "would I want this person to take care of someone I love?" If the answer is no, then there is no way in hell I would ever recommend that student for admission regardles of how high their numbers were or how many ec's they had on their amcas application.

It really pains me to see applicants with stellar stats who think they're entitled to admission to med school anywhere...hubris anyone? Do you really think that grades and mcat scores tell anything about the doctor you're going to be? Personally, I don't think they mean anything except that they're an indicator that you're probably going to be able to pass the boards, and when's the last time you asked your doctor what his USMLE or MCAT score was?

I think that adcoms are looking for genuine, caring people who are going to contribute something more than just nice looking numbers to the future of medicine. But that's just me.

yanky5 said:

Plus, they have a quota for how many minorities they take in and only take in a certain percentage of white males. .

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Considering the average med school has fewer than 20% of its class equaling minorities (and 20% is a very generous estimate on my part), that leaves 80% for non-URMs. If 60% of the total pop. at a given med school is white (75% of the non-URM population), then roughly 30% of the school will be composed of white males. At a med school with, say 150 students per class, that leaves "spots" for 45 white males. If you're not good enough to be one of those 45, perhaps you shouldn't blame those gosh darn minorities for taking your spot - because you had 45 spots to choose from, and you didn't make it into any of them.

I don't like using terms like "good enough" and whatnot, but honestly people - it's time to find a new scapegoat for why the application process didn't go your way. The token "I would have gotten in if not for those meddlin' minorities" excuse went out with Scooby-Doo. Get with the times.

Dmizrahi said:

My problem is i tried but no professors wanted an undergrad in their lab that had never worked in lab before...so its sort of this unfair catch 22...what am i supposed to do about that?

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you need to find a way to get some sort of research experience or to demonstrate that you truly want to start one when you get into med school.

lets look at the facts from MSAR, percent of accepted applicants who reported research experience:

Stanford 94%
Harvard 94%
Hopkins 92%
UCLA 94%

this is the point of the msar, to point you to schools where you should have a competitive edge given your situation

Rafa said:

I don't like using terms like "good enough" and whatnot, but honestly people - it's time to find a new scapegoat for why the application process didn't go your way. The token "I would have gotten in if not for those meddlin' minorities" excuse went out with Scooby-Doo. Get with the times.

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Agree. I also would note that comments like this lay credence to the lack of randomness in the process, in that it's pretty easy to imagine why an adcom might find the person who posts such a thread to be a "not good fit" for their school, notwithstanding grades.

Just because something is not politically correct does not make it wrong. And most people don't say bad things on the interview. We keep controversial ideas to ourselves for the sake of peace. I am just saying facts and I did not say if minorities deserve special treatment or not (maybee I'm pro URM quotas and maybee I'm not)... so don't assume what I think. I just think if you are a white male, you need insanely high scores.

Rafa said:

Considering the average med school has fewer than 20% of its class equaling minorities (and 20% is a very generous estimate on my part), that leaves 80% for non-URMs. If 60% of the total pop. at a given med school is white (75% of the non-URM population), then roughly 30% of the school will be composed of white males. At a med school with, say 150 students per class, that leaves "spots" for 45 white males. If you're not good enough to be one of those 45, perhaps you shouldn't blame those gosh darn minorities for taking your spot - because you had 45 spots to choose from, and you didn't make it into any of them.

I don't like using terms like "good enough" and whatnot, but honestly people - it's time to find a new scapegoat for why the application process didn't go your way. The token "I would have gotten in if not for those meddlin' minorities" excuse went out with Scooby-Doo. Get with the times.

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Dearest Rafa,

I officially approve of your new role as 'bitch-slapper of SDN racists'.

Sincerely,
dbhvt

yanky5 said:

It is an absolute crap shoot. I also had good grades and was very disappointed. The schools absolutely lie about their average GPA, MCAT acceptances. They like to take those from affiliated schools and people who "know" those on the acceptance committies. Plus, they have a quota for how many minorities they take in and only take in a certain percentage of white males. The whole interview process is just to sort out crazy people and it is used to cover up the fact that it is a crapshoot (Bec. if they don't take a white male with a 3.8 and high MCAT, they say "the interview didn't go well"). Also, I know from my experiences that the Medical Schools look down on city and public universities even though they are usually harder than private schools. This is why some individuals get accepted with low grades and some don't get accepted with very high grades.

If I were in charge, I would clean up this mess.

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I thought this post sounded familiar. Then I remembered why

yanky5 said:

Just because something is not politically correct does not make it wrong. And most people don't say bad things on the interview. We keep controversial ideas to ourselves for the sake of peace. I am just saying facts and I did not say if minorities deserve special treatment or not (maybee I'm pro URM quotas)... so don't assume what I think.

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We are not assuming what you think, we are going off what you wrote, which emphasized the plight of the "white males" in the face of quotas of URMs. It's not a leap to figure out where you are coming from -- if you were pro URM quotas you would not have made the post -- it would not make sense.
A friendly suggestion: Folks are rarely as clever as they think, and so if they come off bad in certain settings, such as SDN threads, they sometimes unwittingly come off bad in interviews too.
You will be working with folks of all races and ethnicities, and working on patients of all races and ethnicities. Playing the white martyr won't get you far. Good luck.

ND2005 said:

I thought this post sounded familiar. Then I remembered why

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LOL!
Old habits die hard, I guess.

Law2Doc said:

We are not assuming what you think, we are going off what you wrote, which emphasized the plight of the "white males" in the face of quotas of URMs. It's not a leap to figure out where you are coming from -- if you were pro URM quotas you would not have made the post -- it would not make sense.
A friendly suggestion: Folks are rarely as clever as they think, and so if they come off bad in certain settings, such as SDN threads, they sometimes unwittingly come off bad in interviews too.
You will be working with folks of all races and ethnicities, and working on patients of all races and ethnicities. Playing the white martyr won't get you far. Good luck.

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What he (Law2doc) said.

dbhvt said:

Dearest Rafa,

I officially approve of your new role as 'bitch-slapper of SDN racists'.

Sincerely,
dbhvt

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I will do my best to live up to this honor.

If someone is against URM quotas, it does not make them a racist. There are black people also against such quotas. This is just a liberal lie that was spread to prevent discent. I have lots of URM friends and love all people . This whole black/white thing is part of American culture but in my culture (Judaism) there is no such distinction among races.

silas2642 said:

It really pains me to see applicants with stellar stats who think they're entitled to admission to med school anywhere...hubris anyone?

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Kids suffering from this hubris don't want to hear that there's a real chance of failure, even with stellar stats (e.g. "Accepted to a school I don't want, should I withdraw and reapply?" threads).

Interviews are needed because docs deal with people. If you can't deal with people, as shown by a poor interview performance, then the ADCOM has a valid reason to reject you. Race (thank you, Rafa) does not play a part.

Private vs. city universities doesn't matter: The folks with low stats who get accepted do so because they're a more complete package than these 3.8/38 entitled kids.

Dmizrahi said:

I also agree with this to some extent, but how much can you tell if someone is genuine or not from one interview...like i said can you really feel someone out?

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I think that part of it is just experience... some people are just really good at picking out who is for real and who isn't. I don't think that people who think they're good at bull****ting, at giving the "right" answers at interviews are doing as good of a job as they think they are. I might not be a perfect judge of character, but I can spot a bull****ter a mile away (usually)

yanky5 said:

If someone is against URM quotas, it does not make them a racist.

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Agreed. Some points, however.

1) I never said you were a racist. I just expressed my approval at Rafa for bitch-slapping you as official bitch-slapper of SDN racists.

2) You did not make an intelligent post debating the real issues surrounding URM quotas. You blamed black people for stealing your birthright. Your screenname is yanky5.

yanky5 said:

This is just a liberal lie that was spread to prevent discent.

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3) And it has clearly gotten to you.

You forgot to answer why some URM's themselves are against such quotas. Maybee they are racists too? Or maybee there are some honest people out there who want future doctors to be accepted on the sole basis of MERIT? And it is relevent to point out that this whole American culture thing between Black vs. White is irrelevent in other cultures such as my own [He edited out what he wrote]. So a true Jew is not a racist, since we always had lots of Jews of different ethnicities (Black, white, tan ...) and never had race clashes among ourselves for thousands of years

OK, it's time for people to chill out.

If this continues to turn into a URM/AA thread, it's going to be closed as there is already a perfectly good thread on that subject.

If it degenerates into personal attacks & TOS violations, no matter how justified you may feel, the thread will be closed and people will be dealt with personally.

Along with those who are bullsh**ing the interviewer, there are those who are just weird. (I asked an applicant to reflect on a memorable patient in the ER where he'd volunteered and he told me about the patient who was arrested in the ER for drunk driving and how bad that it and the legal penalties that go along with drunk driving and how a person who does that should be severely punished, etc -- I thought that was a weird response to a question about a patient interaction that he found memorable -- did he think he was interviewing for a spot at the police academy?).

There are also those who seem clueless about medical school and what is required. Case in point: the applicant who had a marginal MCAT, retook & did no better. How had she prepared the second time? The answer was astounding and didn't seem to indicate that she knew how to study/prepare for a big exam. manage her time, or prioritize among EC activities.

MollyMalone said:

OK, it's time for people to chill out.

If this continues to turn into a URM/AA thread, it's going to be closed as there is already a perfectly good thread on that subject.

If it degenerates into personal attacks & TOS violations, no matter how justified you may feel, the thread will be closed and people will be dealt with personally.

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Sorry, MM.

LizzyM said:

Along with those who are bullsh**ing the interviewer, there are those who are just weird. (I asked an applicant to reflect on a memorable patient in the ER where he'd volunteered and he told me about the patient who was arrested in the ER for drunk driving and how bad that it and the legal penalties that go along with drunk driving and how a person who does that should be severely punished, etc -- I thought that was a weird response to a question about a patient interaction that he found memorable -- did he think he was interviewing for a spot at the police academy?).

There are also those who seem clueless about medical school and what is required. Case in point: the applicant who had a marginal MCAT, retook & did no better. How had she prepared the second time? The answer was astounding and didn't seem to indicate that she knew how to study/prepare for a big exam. manage her time, or prioritize among EC activities.

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Oh man, I freaked when I read this, because other people consider me a pretty eccentric individual.

there is some element of "crap shoot", because you never know who is going to review your application, your timing, if there is already someone like you getting an interview spot, who knows....

but you need to be sure to have as good a platform as possible. Very good grades and high MCATS are the best help, but then you need to stand apart as a person. Schools really do seem to like a certain type of applicant, and i didn't realize this until i went to second looks.

Personally my grades were fantastic, but my mcat was only a 28, i still got interviews at places like mayo. (but not temple or UWisconsin).
I think it was because i had really good EC's that were unique. I had a ton of research experience in biochemistry (creating biosensors) but on the other hand I also write short fiction and was a competitive ballroom dancer.

So you just develop yourself as a person and show why you're unique to the adcoms and hope that your brand of unique is what they're looking for. Just be yourself. I think, if i had to do it all over again, i wouldn't have tried so hard in interviews. I'm sure it came across, trying to say what you think people want. it just doesn't work like that.

As for not being able to do research in undergrad.... while I feel for your having a tough time, I also can't give you too much sympathy for that. There are a lot of alternative research opportunities out there. I ran across the same problems, and had to ask for work in a LOT of different labs, and even then got my start applying for a summer research program. So there are a lot of avenues if you're willing to look for them. you coudl even get hired as a tech in a medical research lab at the hospital. i would suggest digging a little harder for research work if you want to do research. if you're not too gung-ho about it, though, then no worries...

Rafa said:

Considering the average med school has fewer than 20% of its class equaling minorities (and 20% is a very generous estimate on my part), that leaves 80% for non-URMs. If 60% of the total pop. at a given med school is white (75% of the non-URM population), then roughly 30% of the school will be composed of white males. At a med school with, say 150 students per class, that leaves "spots" for 45 white males. If you're not good enough to be one of those 45, perhaps you shouldn't blame those gosh darn minorities for taking your spot - because you had 45 spots to choose from, and you didn't make it into any of them.

I don't like using terms like "good enough" and whatnot, but honestly people - it's time to find a new scapegoat for why the application process didn't go your way. The token "I would have gotten in if not for those meddlin' minorities" excuse went out with Scooby-Doo. Get with the times.

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Well Said.