Now we are opening up new med schools for just blatantly stupid reasons

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Name one med school that has EVER reduced their class size. You are naive if you think med schools will just volunteer to drop their class size based on employment projections. Besides, DO schools rely on tuition for up to HALF of their operating costs. So be sure that they wont do anything to cut that revenue down.

Med schools pay ZERO attention to workforce issues. They could care less. The only people remotely interested are the AMA, and they have zero control over what med schools do.

We havent ever had to reduce class size (as far as I know) so all of our suppositions are hypothetical. There has always been a steady increase in demand.
I am going along with your supposition of an impending surplus of doctors, which I don't buy into. By the way, at my institution at least, med student tuition payment is a small fraction of med school income; we are at the bottom of the totem pole. I am betting that this is the case at a large chunk of med schools (MD).
The AAMC (not the AMA) does pay attention to workforce issues, and they set the agenda in terms of med school class size.
Sorry, but I don't buy into your doom and gloom scenario.

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The AAMC (not the AMA) does pay attention to workforce issues, and they set the agenda in terms of med school class size.
Sorry, but I don't buy into your doom and gloom scenario.

Back in the early 90s, the AMA/AAMC predicted a glut of doctors. Did the AAMC encourage med schools to downsize? NO.

What in the world makes you think they will do it if/when a doctor glut arises?
 
Back in the early 90s, the AMA/AAMC predicted a glut of doctors. Did the AAMC encourage med schools to downsize? NO.

What in the world makes you think they will do it if/when a doctor glut arises?

Here is what I know:
1) Med schools are changing. The focus is becoming less and less on student education and more on research, direct patient care, and ancillary services.
2) Govt money given to state med schools is decreasing, increasing their financial strain, decreasing incentive to increase class size.
3) There is a shortage of doctors right now, not a glut.
4) NPs, PAs are increasingly taking over primary care doc turf.
5) Less and less docs are going into primary care.
6) Despite this, specialists are in high demand, indicating increasing class size shouldn't pose an employment problem for wanna be docs
7) given #1, #2 and #6, it would make more sense to open a new med school than expand class size dramatically
8) Given #1, market forces are now having an effect on med schools like never before, meaning that unless goverment gives more money for student training, there is no incentive to train more students
9) The government (hopefully) would not give more money out (state, fed) to med schools, to train students, unless it could justify training more docs.
10) The AAMC provides stats (current, and predictive) to govt on the current status of med school grad turnout, etc., thereby influencing govt policy for providing money to train students.
11) Docs have a lot of money, and they dont want to lose money due to increased competitition. Money = political capital. Even though the AMA is an ineffective lobbying organization, docs in general still wield influence on Capitol hill.
Summary point - The integration of med schools into the business world w/ continued govt oversight of schools via the AAMC, will ensure that class sizes will be adjusted appropriately (although surely with some degree of fluctuation).
 
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I go to a FL med school and honestly I don't see why should UCF and FIU (two very low tier universities... I mean they are really quite bad) should be approved to build medical school.

Well, after FAU got a medical school, FIU and UCF started to feel a little left-out, so they played the exact same hand at the exact same time.

What they said: "If we open up a new medical school, we'll be able to train more doctors for Florida."
What they meant: "If we open up a new medical school, our prestige will go up."

Everybody knows that to get more doctors to the area you need more residencies. But the further limiting factor is Florida's "3 Strikes You're Out" issue. If you want doctors to stay, you have to repeal that rule. The health care in Florida is going to be absolutely terrible in a decade and it's really unfortunate.

I understand what you're saying Callogician, but being a florida resident, I know that many med students who goes to FL med schools already get in with really low MCAT scores as it is. My friend actually get accepted by both Flor ida State and USF straight (not wait list) with MCAT 25. Mind you she didn't have impressive GPA either... and she applied barely before the deadline.

My understanding was that USF had a great average MCAT score but FSU's was lower because it was newer and it turned some people away by really playing up the "we're producing primary care doctors" mantra.

At this rate, the soon to be built 2 med schools in FL would accept pre-meds without decency to even study for classes. And that's just wrong... I think.
I think that's more of a concern with nurses. If we keep saying, 'Man, we really need nurses! We really need nurses!" we might start taking anybody with a pulse. Fortunately -- in this sense -- there aren't enough nursing faculty to teach all the nurses we'd need, so it's still somewhat competitive to get into nursing school.
 
Anyone know what hospitals these new schools will be affiliated with? I imagine that if they all start rotating through Jackson, the UM kids might get a little pissed.
 
Anyone know what hospitals these new schools will be affiliated with? I imagine that if they all start rotating through Jackson, the UM kids might get a little pissed.

We *FSU* are actually associated with several hospitals across the state. Our third and fourth year rotations, we are sent to campuses in Tallahassee, Pensacola, Sarasota, Daytona, Fort Piece, and Orlando. We do not step in anyone's "turf" because these places do not have medical schools (although the Orlando campus existed before the proposed UCF med school, so I don't know how that one will work out or change). We work with the hospitals and clinics in the area namely TMH in Tallahassee and Orlando Regional in Orlando. I don't know about the other sites because I plan on being in Orlando since my husband will be there.

Also the so called primary care mantra isn't something taken lightly. It really is something they aim for here. They pay particular attention to the rural and underserved populations that tend to get overlooked by other schools (rural more than underserved I think). There is also a "rural track" option in addition to the other regional campuses we go to for third and fourth year. They do not discourage specialization, they do however highly encourage primary care and this can be seen in the match results. Yes the MCAT avg has been low (and is increasing), but this would be true with any new medical school anywhere and will be the case also with FIU and UCF.

All this being said, we do talk about the fact that though they are increasing the medical schools and thus medical students they have yet to increase residencies which is absolutely ludicrous. If the goal is to keep us in Florida, then we need more residencies to accomodate the increasing med school grads that will be (and is) coming. And trust me, we all think and talk about the malpractice issues here, but as of right now it is just a fact of life to deal with if we want to stay in Florida...and once you're here, it is certainly a difficult place to leave.
 
I heard rumors (which may or may not be true, of course) that FIU med in the future would most likely affiliate with kendall regional medical center. I guess that makes sense because it really is the closest medical center to the FIU campus anyway. That's going to be interesting to see because the professionalism in that center resembles (or is maybe even slightly below) that of Miami Metrozoo...the animals, not the trainers and other employees. Throw know-nothing med students into the mix and we are talking malpractice central! :laugh:
 
Also, the so-called 'primary care mantra 'isn't something taken lightly. It really is something they aim for here. They pay particular attention to the rural and underserved populations that tend to get overlooked by other schools (rural more than underserved I think). There is also a "rural track" option in addition to the other regional campuses we go to for third and fourth year. They do not discourage specialization, they do however highly encourage primary care and this can be seen in the match results.
I believe it. So the question becomes, since FSU is so focused on rural and underserved populations, why didn't they open up a DO school instead? The American Osteopathic Association is very clear about their desire to produce physicians who pay particular attention to rural and underserved populations.

In any case, I'm glad that they do not discourage specialization.

I still think it's a very interesting proposition because let's imagine that you did convince 90% of medical school graduates to pursue primary care fields like internal medicine. So you'll have a lot of primary care doctors who can see patients but can't refer them to anybody in a reasonable timeframe because now there is a shortage of specialists.

Right? Can't it go both ways?

Older patients that are now living even longer due to recieving personalized care by abundant PCPs will still eventually need orthopedic surgeons (hip replacements), oncologists (choose a cancer, any cancer), cardiothoracic surgeons (open heart surgery), opthalmologists (cataracts)... the list goes on.

Of course the reality is that not everyone will go into primary care, as FSU might promote. But it would be very interesting if they did.

Yes the MCAT avg has been low (and is increasing), but this would be true with any new medical school anywhere and will be the case also with FIU and UCF.
Agreed. And we'd expect that the MCAT average would be on an upward slant for this reason. I also agree with you on the other schools. But I also think that a person with a mid-30's+ MCAT is likely the same kind of person who would be interested in specialization and research -- the "I need the best score, the best research, the best specialty" attitude. And I think they would be turned off by coming to FSU and hearing, "Well, we have a desire to turn out rural primary care doctors." I am just saying it's possible that the two conflict, although obviously there are examples where that is wrong -- look at how many people from Harvard Med go into so-called low-prestige fields like pediatrics.
 
I don't even understand what this "primary/rural care" focus looks like...

Opening up new med schools with a "primary care focus" hardly seems like a good way to fix primary care. If you want students to go into FP then you'd need legislation that gave FPs more money.

New DO schools don't seem like the answer either. Despite their professional organization's stated devotion to primary care I stilll see plenty gunning for non-PC fields.
 
I am from Florida and it bothers me that they are opening up med schools claiming "doctor shortage". The laws in FL do nothing to protect the rights of doctors and the rates of malpractice ins are through the roof. If FL wants more doctors, opening up more medical schools is not the way to do it. Opening more medical schools will just train more doctors for other states whose laws are more welcoming for physicians.
 
I don't even understand what this "primary/rural care" focus looks like...

It looks like a marketing ploy. MD licensure is intentionally broad enough to allow people to be able to apply for any residency program that wants them. If you match a plastic surgery residency coming out of one of these schools, what happens? Do they scowl at you while you walk across the stage?
 
Opening more (Florida) medical schools will just train more doctors for other states whose laws are more welcoming for physicians.
Well said. It's the truth. Sorry, Florida residents.
 
Florida could try opening indentured servitude medical schools. Make them really inexpensive/free and in exchange people have to practice in Florida for 15 years and if they default they owe back $1,000,000 or some such. Then malpractice can be sky high, the practice environment can be awful, but the poor physicians won't be able to leave.

Or they could, you know, fix the problems that make physicians want to leave in the first place. Either way.
 
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Florida could try opening indentured servitude medical schools. Make them really inexpensive/free and in exchange people have to practice in Florida for 15 years and if they default they owe back $1,000,000 or some such. Then malpractice can be sky high, the practice environment can be awful, but the poor physicians won't be able to leave.

Or they could, you know, fix the problems that make physicians want to leave in the first place. Either way.

Can't do the first option, because it would result in a tax burden on the students who stay. They tried to do that **** in TN, and it was beat down for that reason. But not for any of the "good" reasons, you know, like fixing MLR, changing HillaryCare, etc.
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but there are plans in MI to open a new DO satelite campus (of an existing school), and a brand new MD school will also be opening. I think the first class will begin in 2010.

I just hope the AAMC and their osteopathic counterpart don't overshoot on this one. (which I'm sure they will).....:thumbdown:
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but there are plans in MI to open a new DO satelite campus (of an existing school), and a brand new MD school will also be opening. I think the first class will begin in 2010.

I just hope the AAMC and their osteopathic counterpart don't overshoot on this one. (which I'm sure they will).....:thumbdown:


One of the higher-ups at my school told me that when he was at a recent meeting of med school higher-ups a speaker dropped a bomb. He said that at some point in the not-so-distant future securing a spot in a US MD/DO school might not be a guarantee of a residency spot in any field.

I personally think the wanton opening of new medical schools is kind of naive. 50% of students at those schools are going to want to go into fields that already fill 95% with US grads. Is the residency pool going to keep pace? Is the job market there for those positions?
 
One of the higher-ups at my school told me that when he was at a recent meeting of med school higher-ups a speaker dropped a bomb. He said that at some point in the not-so-distant future securing a spot in a US MD/DO school might not be a guarantee of a residency spot in any field.

I personally think the wanton opening of new medical schools is kind of naive. 50% of students at those schools are going to want to go into fields that already fill 95% with US grads. Is the residency pool going to keep pace? Is the job market there for those positions?

I hear ya. I'm thinking that in the future there won't be too much for all these new grads to do but primary care. The writing on the wall says to me, make sure you secure a decent residency in a decent specialty before the glut kicks in and makes it even that much more competitive to obtain a decent career path.

I agree that a true shortage is not good for society, but again, I just hope they don't overshoot with this stuff. And I'm concerned that some of these new schools are looking more to profit opportunities versus concern for the overall well being of our health system.
 
Now we are opening new medical schools based SOLELY on "economic" impact and absolutely no rationale for medical training per se. Thats right. Check out the florida schools. They got those schools passed NOT because there is a shortage of docs in the Miami/Dade area. They got it passed because they sold it as a way to "increase economic activity" in the area.

This is a dangerous trend.

Now every podunk delapidated community is going to start pimping for their own med school so they can "increase economic development" to their area. This argument sells very well with politicians who can brag that they can stimulate the economy.

Be wary boys and girls. Dont buy the hype or the BS. That sound you hear is med schools popping up like popcorn and achieving teh same mediocre numerical platform that law schools have had for years now.

Yep It's a worldwide phenomenon.
But still I think it won't turn out to be like Law schools. Docs are a way more well organized in terms of associations than Lawyers were. It's gonna be less painful preventing it from reaching unbearable levels.
 
One of the higher-ups at my school told me that when he was at a recent meeting of med school higher-ups a speaker dropped a bomb. He said that at some point in the not-so-distant future securing a spot in a US MD/DO school might not be a guarantee of a residency spot in any field.

I personally think the wanton opening of new medical schools is kind of naive. 50% of students at those schools are going to want to go into fields that already fill 95% with US grads. Is the residency pool going to keep pace? Is the job market there for those positions?

Wow, that's just unacceptable. They'll let you in and take your money, but give you no guarantee that you'll be able to complete your training provided that you pass everything. If that's the case, they really need to stop the growth.
 
One of the higher-ups at my school told me that when he was at a recent meeting of med school higher-ups a speaker dropped a bomb. He said that at some point in the not-so-distant future securing a spot in a US MD/DO school might not be a guarantee of a residency spot in any field.

I personally think the wanton opening of new medical schools is kind of naive. 50% of students at those schools are going to want to go into fields that already fill 95% with US grads. Is the residency pool going to keep pace? Is the job market there for those positions?

Is it guaranteed now? Not really. It's kind of a de facto guarantee, but there are still people every year who don't match and don't scramble.

Seriously, given the large numbers of IMGs who manage to match every year, I don't know what everyone is so worried about. Most of the residency slots needed will come from that pool first.
 
Seriously, given the large numbers of IMGs who manage to match every year, I don't know what everyone is so worried about. Most of the residency slots needed will come from that pool first.


Agreed. First the IMGs/FMGs will get shut out. Then the DOs (no flame intended, it's just what I predict). Then the MDs will get squeezed. They would have to really expand medical school slots (by at least 50%) or cut down on the number of residency slots (or some combination of both) for there to be an insufficient number of residency slots for US allopathic students.

The more plausible possibility is allopathic and osteopathic schools expand to fill the number of residency slots available, and in this case a large number of students will need to go into primary care (whether they want to or not).
 
Hopefully they won't make the mistake that podiatry schools did a few years back. They really did have more graduates than residency spots and there were alot of disgruntled people who got a DPM (doctor of podiatric medicine) but couldn't work and still had the $120,000 loans.

Hopefully that doesn't happen to DO's or MD's.

Good luck!
 
Hopefully they won't make the mistake that podiatry schools did a few years back. They really did have more graduates than residency spots and there were alot of disgruntled people who got a DPM (doctor of podiatric medicine) but couldn't work and still had the $120,000 loans.

Hopefully that doesn't happen to DO's or MD's.

Good luck!

If they open up too many med schools, the first to be affected are the IMG's, then DO's, and then MD's. That's because you have more med school graduates but the same number of residencies.
 
It looks like a marketing ploy. MD licensure is intentionally broad enough to allow people to be able to apply for any residency program that wants them. If you match a plastic surgery residency coming out of one of these schools, what happens? Do they scowl at you while you walk across the stage?

This could develop into a tier rankings system like they have for law or business schools. Getting a plastics/derm/radonc residency could be like becoming an associate at Goldman Sachs. You're only seriously considered if you have the right pedigree.
 
Is it guaranteed now? Not really. It's kind of a de facto guarantee, but there are still people every year who don't match and don't scramble.

Seriously, given the large numbers of IMGs who manage to match every year, I don't know what everyone is so worried about. Most of the residency slots needed will come from that pool first.

Agreed that the guarantee is "de facto" but you will almost certainly concede the point that nearly any US Allo grad with realistic expectations and good advice can find a spot somewhere.
 
I hear ya. I'm thinking that in the future there won't be too much for all these new grads to do but primary care. The writing on the wall says to me, make sure you secure a decent residency in a decent specialty before the glut kicks in and makes it even that much more competitive to obtain a decent career path.

I agree that a true shortage is not good for society, but again, I just hope they don't overshoot with this stuff. And I'm concerned that some of these new schools are looking more to profit opportunities versus concern for the overall well being of our health system.

That is certainly a worry. You can open up med schools with any sort of devotion to PC you want but students are still going to look longingly at Anesthesia and Derm.

It is kind of scary. You kow over in Pre-Allo there is almost a game towards figuring out who can be the most "underdog" acceptance to med school. Are we ever going to get to a point where there is a whole sub-class of US grads who are forced into specialties they really don't want to do b/c there just aren't spots in all the other stuff? I honestly don't know, just posing the question. I don't think it's happening too much now.

Even in EM, a field that is relatively "explosive" in terms of new/expanding programs you are talking about an position increase in the 200s over 6 years...
 
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