What do you AMGs REALLY think about IMGs?

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PostCall said:
man this hating on FMGs has been going on forever. before most of the people blabbing in this thread were even born. my dad came here as an FMG back in the day and started his first surgical residency. i say first because back then nobody was guaranteed to finish as all surgery residencies were pyramidal (look it up if u don't know what it means). as expected he was let go without explanation after 2 years as were most of the FMGs and a few AMGs. back then they didn't have to document, explain, or justify why...they just told u that u were no longer welcome and that was that. imagine if they dismissed all the FMGs in a residency now....hello multimillion dollar class action lawsuit! anyway he spent the next few years working menial jobs until another surgical residency a few states over took him in....starting back as PGY1. so by now the residents he started with were attendings at various hospitals and he was back at being an intern. how many US med students do u know who wud work as a janitor/busboy/dishwasher for a few years if they got kicked out of their coveted residency for no justifiable reason and then wud start all over as an intern again? the ones i know start crying if they go unmatched and wud probably be on suicide watch if they got kicked out of residency.

anyway he plowed ahead and finally made it. you've probably never even heard of his med school back in the old country. but by tons of hard work and dedication he became an awesome surgeon. he cud have listened to all the haters and quit but he didn't, he kept going until he made it. now people on this thead are saying the same kind of critical things he and every other FMG has heard back then too. different era, same old song. just plow ahead and turn a deaf ear to the naysayers and haters like my old man did. this country is still one where hard work is rewarded. it may take longer and u may have to take a detour or two...but as long as u don't quit you're still in the game. and this is coming from a US born and bred med student.
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👍👍👍
 
:corny: ..wait.. is the show over now?

This thread was headed straight towards "separate but equal". That would have been highly entertaining. Until next time.. and we all know there will be a next time, comrades.
 
PostCall said:
man this hating on FMGs has been going on forever. before most of the people blabbing in this thread were even born. my dad came here as an FMG back in the day and started his first surgical residency. i say first because back then nobody was guaranteed to finish as all surgery residencies were pyramidal (look it up if u don't know what it means). as expected he was let go without explanation after 2 years as were most of the FMGs and a few AMGs. back then they didn't have to document, explain, or justify why...they just told u that u were no longer welcome and that was that. imagine if they dismissed all the FMGs in a residency now....hello multimillion dollar class action lawsuit! anyway he spent the next few years working menial jobs until another surgical residency a few states over took him in....starting back as PGY1. so by now the residents he started with were attendings at various hospitals and he was back at being an intern. how many US med students do u know who wud work as a janitor/busboy/dishwasher for a few years if they got kicked out of their coveted residency for no justifiable reason and then wud start all over as an intern again? the ones i know start crying if they go unmatched and wud probably be on suicide watch if they got kicked out of residency.

anyway he plowed ahead and finally made it. you've probably never even heard of his med school back in the old country. but by tons of hard work and dedication he became an awesome surgeon. he cud have listened to all the haters and quit but he didn't, he kept going until he made it. now people on this thead are saying the same kind of critical things he and every other FMG has heard back then too. different era, same old song. just plow ahead and turn a deaf ear to the naysayers and haters like my old man did. this country is still one where hard work is rewarded. it may take longer and u may have to take a detour or two...but as long as u don't quit you're still in the game. and this is coming from a US born and bred med student.
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You know what they say...the more people hating the more you're doing right. People just don't understand how to work the system. That's their fault. Just let them bitch and go to the little boys/girls room and cry. Like I always say you should've known what you're getting into when you first decided that you wanted to go through all this. Easy isn't it?
 
RKNY said:
You know what they say...the more people hating the more you're doing right. People just don't understand how to work the system. That's their fault. Just let them bitch and go to the little boys/girls room and cry. Like I always say you should've known what you're getting into when you first decided that you wanted to go through all this. Easy isn't it?
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I don't really have a dog in this fight, but your post rubs me the wrong way. As a pre-med, you don't know what you're getting into. I don't care how many doctors you know/have shadowed or how many friends you have in medical school. There's a lack of understanding that you only get from experience.

That being said, if you're a pre-match medical student by now (some people don't update their info on here) then my rant still applies.
 
I am a US IMG that prematched Anesthesia. I was born in Eastern Europe but grew up most of my life in the US and decided to return for medical school. Going through the match process as sort of an odd ball was an interesting experience. Now that it is all over I think I could chime with an interesting perspective even though I think some people might call it hypocritical.

I think that the pre-match should be done away with for everybody. USMLE scores are way overblown and I think nearly everyone would unanimously agree that two test scores from two different days of your life are not an accurate gauge of your worth and ability. I would go as far as to make all the steps Pass/Fail.

That being said, unfortunately I would have to agree with one poster above who mentioned that match should go to AMG first then DO after their spots filled then US IMGs then Non-US IMGs.

Yes, America does reward hard work and yes the best should get in but how fair is it that AMGs have to compete with some of the best med students/doctors from around the world. I mean that’s like the Olympics of job placement. Do I think I am, or most other MS4s, are skilled/knowledgeable as the top 1% IMGs, who has the perfect board scores (because it’s much more important to him/her then AMG), 4-5 years of experience as a doctor, international conferences, publications? No Do I think that I could be competitive after a few years of a good residency if given the opportunity? Yes.
Plain and simple comparing a AMG with the best 1% of established, practicing IMG MD from around the world is unfair.

At the end of the day it comes down to money. An AMG spent 8 years of school and 200-300K in loans (A large part of it being government subsidized loans), then goes to a residency for 3-8 years which is paid for by Medicare (In 2007, Medicare provided $8.8 billion for Graduate Medical Education to teaching hospitals for PGME for about 105,000 residents which works out to about 84K/per resident http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/359/6/643) The most up to date I could find.

That means the American taxpayer has subsidized the Stafford loan and in the average 5 year residency for 420K not taking account inflation. So that half million dollars just by ballpark.

Basically, yes I am happy I matched into a competitive specialty and yes I will be called a hypocrite but if I were an AMG without a job in a country with 10% unemployment and a Non-US IMG were given my job when he/she already had a job in their home country and my country were subsidizing them to the tune of 500K to get an education I would be in an uproar.

Then again, does our current Congress work for the average person anymore? NO so I don’t things will change.
 
Excellent post!

Czech Mate said:
I am a US IMG that prematched Anesthesia. I was born in Eastern Europe but grew up most of my life in the US and decided to return for medical school. Going through the match process as sort of an odd ball was an interesting experience. Now that it is all over I think I could chime with an interesting perspective even though I think some people might call it hypocritical.

I think that the pre-match should be done away with for everybody. USMLE scores are way overblown and I think nearly everyone would unanimously agree that two test scores from two different days of your life are not an accurate gauge of your worth and ability. I would go as far as to make all the steps Pass/Fail.

That being said, unfortunately I would have to agree with one poster above who mentioned that match should go to AMG first then DO after their spots filled then US IMGs then Non-US IMGs.

Yes, America does reward hard work and yes the best should get in but how fair is it that AMGs have to compete with some of the best med students/doctors from around the world. I mean that’s like the Olympics of job placement. Do I think I am, or most other MS4s, are skilled/knowledgeable as the top 1% IMGs, who has the perfect board scores (because it’s much more important to him/her then AMG), 4-5 years of experience as a doctor, international conferences, publications? No Do I think that I could be competitive after a few years of a good residency if given the opportunity? Yes.
Plain and simple comparing a AMG with the best 1% of established, practicing IMG MD from around the world is unfair.

At the end of the day it comes down to money. An AMG spent 8 years of school and 200-300K in loans (A large part of it being government subsidized loans), then goes to a residency for 3-8 years which is paid for by Medicare (In 2007, Medicare provided $8.8 billion for Graduate Medical Education to teaching hospitals for PGME for about 105,000 residents which works out to about 84K/per resident http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/359/6/643) The most up to date I could find.

That means the American taxpayer has subsidized the Stafford loan and in the average 5 year residency for 420K not taking account inflation. So that half million dollars just by ballpark.

Basically, yes I am happy I matched into a competitive specialty and yes I will be called a hypocrite but if I were an AMG without a job in a country with 10% unemployment and a Non-US IMG were given my job when he/she already had a job in their home country and my country were subsidizing them to the tune of 500K to get an education I would be in an uproar.

Then again, does our current Congress work for the average person anymore? NO so I don’t things will change.
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PostCall said:
man this hating on FMGs has been going on forever. before most of the people blabbing in this thread were even born. my dad came here as an FMG back in the day and started his first surgical residency. i say first because back then nobody was guaranteed to finish as all surgery residencies were pyramidal (look it up if u don't know what it means). as expected he was let go without explanation after 2 years as were most of the FMGs and a few AMGs. back then they didn't have to document, explain, or justify why...they just told u that u were no longer welcome and that was that. imagine if they dismissed all the FMGs in a residency now....hello multimillion dollar class action lawsuit! anyway he spent the next few years working menial jobs until another surgical residency a few states over took him in....starting back as PGY1. so by now the residents he started with were attendings at various hospitals and he was back at being an intern. how many US med students do u know who wud work as a janitor/busboy/dishwasher for a few years if they got kicked out of their coveted residency for no justifiable reason and then wud start all over as an intern again? the ones i know start crying if they go unmatched and wud probably be on suicide watch if they got kicked out of residency.

anyway he plowed ahead and finally made it. you've probably never even heard of his med school back in the old country. but by tons of hard work and dedication he became an awesome surgeon. he cud have listened to all the haters and quit but he didn't, he kept going until he made it. now people on this thead are saying the same kind of critical things he and every other FMG has heard back then too. different era, same old song. just plow ahead and turn a deaf ear to the naysayers and haters like my old man did. this country is still one where hard work is rewarded. it may take longer and u may have to take a detour or two...but as long as u don't quit you're still in the game. and this is coming from a US born and bred med student.
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Man, people are totally missing the point here. No one is saying IMG's are subpar physicians, or that they don't have potential. And frankly, I don't think any of us would blame them for wanting to come to the U.S. for training.

What the real issue here is: the U.S. IS NOT and SHOULD NOT be made responsible for training the world's doctors, and foreign citizens have no legitimate claim to an equal shot at our domestic training spots, especially when the number of available training spots is less than the number of U.S. medical school graduates applying. Come on, it's not fair to U.S. medical school graduates (whose families' tax dollars pay for the spot to exist), it's not fair to IMGs' home countries who are losing a doctor (if they stay), it's not fair to the U.S. population who are losing a physician trained with their tax dollars (if they leave), and it's not fair to patients if there are cultural/language barriers (and YES these exist, not always but they do).

The reason your father did well here is because he worked hard and didn't complain and worked within the limitations of the system. I would wager most of the people complaining are actually U.S. citizens who went overseas for their education and are hence now part of the endearing "entitlement generation" that demands "I HAVE JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO THAT SPOT AS YOU DO!" when in reality you don't have the right to ANYTHING, you have basic human rights and the privileges of being a U.S. citizen and the privileges you earn and fight for. Likewise, U.S. grads are fighting to defend our privileges to get frickin' training in the frickin' U.S., and shockingly enough, we don't want the spots to go to people who trained outside of the U.S. system. No one's ENTITLED to a spot in anything. But in my opinion, foreign grads should thank their lucky stars they get a crack at the extra spots U.S. grads don't want and stop pretending they should be considered as equal to a U.S. grad, because this year there were more U.S. graduates in the scramble than there were scramble spots available, and the gravy train will grind to a halt for the IMG's (and probably DO's).

I don't blame them for trying to increase their chances of getting a spot, but I can argue with them for using faulty logic to get there.

Edit: I also thought Czech Mate's post was spot on.
 
JeffLebowski said:
What the real issue here is: the U.S. IS NOT and SHOULD NOT be made responsible for training the world's doctors, and foreign citizens have no legitimate claim to an equal shot at our domestic training spots, especially when the number of available training spots is less than the number of U.S. medical school graduates applying. Come on, it's not fair to U.S. medical school graduates (whose families' tax dollars pay for the spot to exist), it's not fair to IMGs' home countries who are losing a doctor (if they stay), it's not fair to the U.S. population who are losing a physician trained with their tax dollars (if they leave), and it's not fair to patients if there are cultural/language barriers (and YES these exist, not always but they do).
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I don't mean to single you out here, but I just wanted to point out something and I hope you take it into consideration when your reevaluate your talking points.

If you're going to make an argument, make sure to check the "facts" that you use to support your argument. If there is a glaring discrepancy, it will be used against you. You can't expect people with opposing arguments to consider your viewpoint seriously if you don't even bother to check your numbers. It makes you look like an ill-informed follower, because you're not the first one who has made this particular claim (bold portion in your statement above).

2010 Main Residency Match

  • Total Positions Offered - 25,520
    • PGY-1 positions - 22,809
    • PGY-2 positions - 2,711

  • Total Participating Applicants - 30,543
    • US Seniors - 16,070
    • US Graduates - 1,356
    • Osteopathic - 2,045
    • Canadian - 24
    • 5th Pathway - 107
    • US IMG - 3,695
    • Non-US IMG - 7,246

  • Total Matches - 24, 378
    • PGY-1 matches - 21,749
    • PGY-2 matches - 2,629

  • Total Matched PGY-1 Applicants - 21,749
    • US Seniors - 14,992
    • US Graduates - 609
    • Osteopathic - 1,444
    • Canadian - 18
    • 5th Pathway - 56
    • US IMG - 1,749
    • Non-US IMG - 2,881
According to these numbers,
Unfilled PGY-1 positions - 1060
Unfilled PGY-2 positions - 82

Unmatched PGY-1 US Seniors - 1078

I have no idea why these seniors didn't match. There could be a number of reasons - didn't apply broadly, messed up their ROL, application was less than stellar. I don't really know.

What's so unfair? US Seniors have a huge advantage over all the other applicants. There was 22,809 PGY-1 positions offered and you think the only reason those US Seniors didn't match is because all the "other" applicants are taking their seats?
("Other" = US Graduates, Osteopathic, Canadian, 5th Pathway, US IMG, Non-US IMG)

How about you stop blaming the "other" qualified applicants and start blaming the unmatched US Seniors who don't know how to compete in a process where the odds are stacked in their favor. Did those US Seniors apply to Rural Town, USA? Probably not. If they did, I bet they would have matched.

Who has entitlement issues? Those who think they're too good for Rural Town, USA or a non-University program or the IMG's who applied there and landed the spot?

All this nonsense about singling out US IMGs and Non-US IMGs as being a major reason for those US Seniors going unmatched is ridiculous. They must really be that pissed off or just plain clueless. Eliminating an entire group of applicants so you don't have to compete with them.. that sounds really desperate and pathetic to me. But hey, that's just my opinion. Who's next on the scapegoat list anyway? I hope it's not the DO's.. those fellas have been through a lot already.

I don't blame them for trying to increase their chances of getting a spot, but I can argue with them for using faulty logic to get there.
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I think we both can agree on this. Cheers!
 
Rabbit Hole said:
According to these numbers,
Unfilled PGY-1 positions - 1060
Unfilled PGY-2 positions - 82

Unmatched PGY-1 US Seniors - 1078
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This is the number I was referring to - the number of unmatched U.S. seniors was higher than the number of spots in the scramble. Thank you for your concern.

Rabbit Hole said:
What's so unfair? US Seniors have a huge advantage over all the other applicants. There was 22,809 PGY-1 positions offered and you think the only reason those US Seniors didn't match is because all the "other" applicants are taking their seats?
("Other" = US Graduates, Osteopathic, Canadian, 5th Pathway, US IMG, Non-US IMG)

How about you stop blaming the "other" qualified applicants and start blaming the unmatched US Seniors who don't know how to compete in a process where the odds are stacked in their favor. Did those US Seniors apply to Rural Town, USA? Probably not. If they did, I bet they would have matched.
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Well, I certainly hold individuals responsible for their own fate, and I agree that some people shoot themselves in the foot. I'm not saying the only factor contributing to the high # of unmatched U.S. seniors this year was foreigners, come on. I'm saying in general, the gap is closing, competition is increasing, MD schools are increasing enrollment, and that's a good thing.

And I'm saying it's totally ridiculous to have another group of applicants, usually very strong candidates because they had to be to be "competitive" in this environment, often already fully-trained physicians, applying for and getting spots in and out of the match. Regardless of whether U.S. graduates are ACTUALLY displaced out of spots at present, the idea that these spots are open to anyone is silly.

Rabbit Hole said:
Who has entitlement issues? Those who think they're too good for Rural Town, USA or a non-University program or the IMG's who applied there and landed the spot?
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Hey, I don't disagree that the people who didn't match are probably overestimating their chances. You're making it sound like I think the only reason those people didn't match was because of "dirty foreigners" or something. Here you are criticizing me for blaming IMGs for unmatched U.S. seniors while simultaneously blaming the unmatched themselves. It's a combination of many factors. I'm saying the numbers from this year's match show us that it is becoming increasingly difficult for U.S. MD graduates to get U.S. MD training spots. One factor is all the other people in the match who, in my opinion and I'm not alone here, ideally shouldn't be in the match at all. We should have a system where the # of MD training spots is equal to the # of MD graduates, and have DO students fill DO training spots, and foreign MD's for the most part train in their own country. The increase in the # of MD graduates is a force in this direction and I think it's likely that the U.S. training system (ACGME) will increasingly reduce its reliance on IMGs to fill residency positions, and this is a good thing for every party involved, except for probably the people seeking to get U.S. training spots from foreign countries, who are entitled to nothing of the sort.

Rabbit Hole said:
All this nonsense about singling out US IMGs and Non-US IMGs as being a major reason for those US Seniors going unmatched is ridiculous. They must really be that pissed off or just plain clueless. Eliminating an entire group of applicants so you don't have to compete with them.. that sounds really desperate and pathetic to me. But hey, that's just my opinion. Who's next on the scapegoat list anyway? I hope it's not the DO's.. those fellas have been through a lot already.
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Yeah, well you can make me out to be a bad guy all you want (and "desperate" and "pathetic" by your own words), but the principles I'm talking about are pretty hard to argue with. Personally, I'm not going to have to compete with any of these people in the match because I'm past that stage, but yeah, for future generations the easier they make it for foreign physicians to come here, the more WILL, the more will be drained from their home country, the harder it will be for program directors to turn down a fully-trained radiologist, for example, who may be desperate to train in the U.S.

And yeah, I do think DO's should enter their own match. Or rather, I think the DO GME community should be structured such that there are adequate # of DO post-graduate training spots for all their graduates, just as I said for the MD community.

Rabbit Hole said:
I don't mean to single you out here....

...I think we both can agree on this. Cheers!
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Just because you started with some dainty dancing and ended with "Cheers!" doesn't mean you didn't attack me with the rest of your post. Personally, I don't care if you attack me because I say somewhat inflammatory things to others at times too, but smugness is very unappealing.

Cheers!
 
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JeffLebowski said:
Hey, I don't disagree that the people who didn't match are probably overestimating their chances. You're making it sound like I think the only reason those people didn't match was because of "dirty foreigners" or something. Here you are criticizing me for blaming IMGs for unmatched U.S. seniors while simultaneously blaming the unmatched themselves. It's a combination of many factors. I'm saying the numbers from this year's match show us that it is becoming increasingly difficult for U.S. MD graduates to get U.S. MD training spots. One factor is all the other people in the match who, in my opinion and I'm not alone here, ideally shouldn't be in the match at all. We should have a system where the # of MD training spots is equal to the # of MD graduates, and have DO students fill DO training spots, and foreign MD's for the most part train in their own country. The increase in the # of MD graduates is a force in this direction and I think it's likely that the U.S. training system (ACGME) will increasingly reduce its reliance on IMGs to fill residency positions, and this is a good thing for every party involved, except for probably the people seeking to get U.S. training spots from foreign countries, who are entitled to nothing of the sort.
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I wasn't trying to shift the blame, I know all is not black and white. I just wanted to point out that "personal responsibility" is also a large contributing factor for those who went unmatched and it deserves to be acknowledged.

As for the second bolded statement, there's not much I can say because it's clear that we both have fundamentally different views and it's not likely to change anytime soon. I think your views are probably much more polar than mine because the ideal scenario you described above seems a bit extreme.

JeffLebowski said:
Yeah, well you can make me out to be a bad guy all you want (and "desperate" and "pathetic" by your own words), but the principles I'm talking about are pretty hard to argue with. Personally, I'm not going to have to compete with any of these people in the match because I'm past that stage, but yeah, for future generations the easier they make it for foreign physicians to come here, the more WILL, the more will be drained from their home country, the harder it will be for program directors to turn down a fully-trained radiologist, for example, who may be desperate to train in the U.S.
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You're right, the principles you're talking about are hard to argue with. I'd probably have more success convincing a potato that he's a banana. 🙄

I agree with the last part of what you said. I can see how this would be problematic and I imagine a lot of program directors are faced with this dilemma. I'm not really sure how PDs get their job, but I think they are a qualified bunch and try to keep the scales balanced. They're probably intelligent enough to know that it's not good business (it is a business right?) to disproportionately favor experienced IMGs over a fresh AMGs. I think they have conferences where they get together and discuss guidelines and issues like this. Ultimately, they want people who fit well in their program and top priority should always be given to AMGs. Note that there a lot of programs that don't sponsor visas so this dilemma doesn't apply to them.

I want add that I personally think it would be a shame if residency programs stopped accepting foreign trained doctors altogether. The medical community would only suffer if it started to put up the kinds of borders that we see in politics. There are conferences held all around the world where medical doctors get together and share ideas and the latest advancements because they are aware that medical knowledge as a whole has a global impact. The US is not like other nations, we live up to a higher standard and I don't think closing off residency seats to foreigners is a very American thing to do.

JeffLebowski said:
And yeah, I do think DO's should enter their own match. Or rather, I think the DO GME community should be structured such that there are adequate # of DO post-graduate training spots for all their graduates, just as I said for the MD community.
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They just can't catch a break.

JeffLebowski said:
Just because you started with some dainty dancing and ended with "Cheers!" doesn't mean you didn't attack me with the rest of your post. Personally, I don't care if you attack me because I say somewhat inflammatory things to others at times too, but smugness is very unappealing.

Cheers!
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I'm sorry I got carried away, I didn't mean to be short with you. A little mutual respect can go a long way and you made some good comments.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" :prof:
 
Rabbit Hole said:
I wasn't trying to shift the blame, I know all is not black and white. I just wanted to point out that "personal responsibility" is also a large contributing factor for those who went unmatched and it deserves to be acknowledged.

As for the second bolded statement, there's not much I can say because it's clear that we both have fundamentally different views and it's not likely to change anytime soon. I think your views are probably much more polar than mine because the ideal scenario you described above seems a bit extreme.



You're right, the principles you're talking about are hard to argue with. I'd probably have more success convincing a potato that he's a banana. 🙄

I agree with the last part of what you said. I can see how this would be problematic and I imagine a lot of program directors are faced with this dilemma. I'm not really sure how PDs get their job, but I think they are a qualified bunch and try to keep the scales balanced. They're probably intelligent enough to know that it's not good business (it is a business right?) to disproportionately favor experienced IMGs over a fresh AMGs. I think they have conferences where they get together and discuss guidelines and issues like this. Ultimately, they want people who fit well in their program and top priority should always be given to AMGs. Note that there a lot of programs that don't sponsor visas so this dilemma doesn't apply to them.

I want add that I personally think it would be a shame if residency programs stopped accepting foreign trained doctors altogether. The medical community would only suffer if it started to put up the kinds of borders that we see in politics. There are conferences held all around the world where medical doctors get together and share ideas and the latest advancements because they are aware that medical knowledge as a whole has a global impact. The US is not like other nations, we live up to a higher standard and I don't think closing off residency seats to foreigners is a very American thing to do.



They just can't catch a break.



I'm sorry I got carried away, I didn't mean to be short with you. A little mutual respect can go a long way and you made some good comments.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" :prof:
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No hard feelings. You made some good points.
 
Rabbit Hole said:
I want add that I personally think it would be a shame if residency programs stopped accepting foreign trained doctors altogether. The medical community would only suffer if it started to put up the kinds of borders that we see in politics. There are conferences held all around the world where medical doctors get together and share ideas and the latest advancements because they are aware that medical knowledge as a whole has a global impact. The US is not like other nations, we live up to a higher standard and I don't think closing off residency seats to foreigners is a very American thing to do.
:prof:
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Having been to many medical conferences, I have shared ideas with physicans from around the world. Many of them trained outside the United States and having not trained in the US does not prevent that discussion.

In the view of many of the AMG's on this board, residency spots should be reserved for US grads over US IMGs/FMG because of the fact that they went to LCME accredited schools and took out the loans. While US grads may go to some european nations they will have difficulty making enough to pay off their loans and spots are limited. As for Asia or the Caribbean good luck getting a residency. If other countries aren't taking our grads to train why shouldn't we protect our grads first. As for US-IMG's they are taking a unaccredited path and therefore shouldn't be getting into the first match.
 
wagy27 said:
Having been to many medical conferences, I have shared ideas with physicans from around the world. Many of them trained outside the United States and having not trained in the US does not prevent that discussion.

In the view of many of the AMG's on this board, residency spots should be reserved for US grads over US IMGs/FMG because of the fact that they went to LCME accredited schools and took out the loans. While US grads may go to some european nations they will have difficulty making enough to pay off their loans and spots are limited. As for Asia or the Caribbean good luck getting a residency. If other countries aren't taking our grads to train why shouldn't we protect our grads first. As for US-IMG's they are taking a unaccredited path and therefore shouldn't be getting into the first match.
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I really hope I have some kid like you come up to me and say something like that.

You dont think FMG's have to take out loans? First of all you AMG's have FEDERAL loans, which means that your interest is much much lower than alot of PRIVATE loans that caribean students have to take. You think it is cheap flying from America to the caribean? You think it is cheap have to go from city to city to a new rotation? You think it's easy to find a place for a few weeks then have to move somewhere else for a week?

Listen, i'm not going to sit here and say AMG's are better than FMG's or FMG'S are better than AMG's. Thats not my place, and neither yours.

I went to a top 20 Undergraduate school. I did poorly! i made alot of mistakes, I made alot of bad decisions. Instead of studying, I would go out with my friends and watch a basketball game. I would sit around a socialize till 3AM. I would do anything and everything, except for any form of studying.

Point being, I made mistakes, and going to the Caribbean was a second chance for me. I got my act together. I started studying and above all I became mature. I got a 99 on Step(Studied for 6 weeks) and have done well on all my clinical rotations.

This is America people, we get second chances here! Ever here of Mike Vick? The guy made a mistake, went to jail, and now is playing football again.

I didnt commit a crime, i didnt commit a felony, if anything I might have a drank a little too much in college. Just because I didnt get into an american medical school does NOT make me inferior to you.
 
cosine said:
I really hope I have some kid like you come up to me and say something like that.

You dont think FMG's have to take out loans? First of all you AMG's have FEDERAL loans, which means that your interest is much much lower than alot of PRIVATE loans that caribean students have to take. You think it is cheap flying from America to the caribean? You think it is cheap have to go from city to city to a new rotation? You think it's easy to find a place for a few weeks then have to move somewhere else for a week?

Listen, i'm not going to sit here and say AMG's are better than FMG's or FMG'S are better than AMG's. Thats not my place, and neither yours.

I went to a top 20 Undergraduate school. I did poorly! i made alot of mistakes, I made alot of bad decisions. Instead of studying, I would go out with my friends and watch a basketball game. I would sit around a socialize till 3AM. I would do anything and everything, except for any form of studying.

Point being, I made mistakes, and going to the Caribbean was a second chance for me. I got my act together. I started studying and above all I became mature. I got a 99 on Step(Studied for 6 weeks) and have done well on all my clinical rotations.

This is America people, we get second chances here! Ever here of Mike Vick? The guy made a mistake, went to jail, and now is playing football again.

I didnt commit a crime, i didnt commit a felony, if anything I might have a drank a little too much in college. Just because I didnt get into an american medical school does NOT make me inferior to you.
Click to expand...

This is the annoying sense of entitlement I was talking about.
 
cosine said:
This is America people, we get second chances here! Ever here of Mike Vick? The guy made a mistake, went to jail, and now is playing football again.

I didnt commit a crime, i didnt commit a felony, if anything I might have a drank a little too much in college. Just because I didnt get into an american medical school does NOT make me inferior to you.
Click to expand...

awt8j4.jpg


JeffLebowski said:
This is the annoying sense of entitlement I was talking about.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
just curious;

1. What annoys you more about IMGs?
(their accent, or they're noisy,or 'cos they speak in their own
language, the skin color, what else?)

and
2. from where?, cmon it's an anonymous forum
asians, latins, arab people, europeans, canadians, indian
 
fastmove said:
just curious;

1. What annoys you more about IMGs?
(their accent, or they're noisy,or 'cos they speak in their own
language, the skin color, what else?)

and
2. from where?, cmon it's an anonymous forum
asians, latins, arab people, europeans, canadians, indian
Click to expand...

:troll:
 
fastmove said:
just curious;

1. What annoys you more about IMGs?
(their accent, or they're noisy,or 'cos they speak in their own
language, the skin color, what else?)

and
2. from where?, cmon it's an anonymous forum
asians, latins, arab people, europeans, canadians, indian
Click to expand...


Canadians :laugh:
 
Canadians, unless they trained outside of the US or Canada, do not count as IMG's in the US. They apply on an equal footing with American grads from accredited med schools. They're still foreigners, but not IMG's in the traditional sense. Cheers,
M
 
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wagy27 said:
Having been to many medical conferences, I have shared ideas with physicans from around the world. Many of them trained outside the United States and having not trained in the US does not prevent that discussion.

In the view of many of the AMG's on this board, residency spots should be reserved for US grads over US IMGs/FMG because of the fact that they went to LCME accredited schools and took out the loans. While US grads may go to some european nations they will have difficulty making enough to pay off their loans and spots are limited. As for Asia or the Caribbean good luck getting a residency. If other countries aren't taking our grads to train why shouldn't we protect our grads first. As for US-IMG's they are taking a unaccredited path and therefore shouldn't be getting into the first match.
Click to expand...

I go to a Caribbean school... and I am on gradplus and stafford federal loans (Title IV).

I'm also an American citizen.

I do agree that people that went to US schools deserve an easier time getting into residency... since they worked harder and made it into a US allopathic school (or DO).

However I am a US citizen with more loans than you most likely. (Caribbean schools are not cheaper than US schools) I think if I work hard and finish I deserve a chance at landing a US residency. Even if my chances are reduced compared to a US MD... I still think I deserve a chance.

Going to a Caribbean school is a 2nd chance option that does have its downfalls and consequences... to say that Caribbean US-IMG don't deserve to go to a US residency is just not right.
 
I don't think that PD's care about the fairness of the game. If the PD thinks that an FMG will do a better job, represent the program better, and pass boards easier than an AMG, he/she will rank the FMG higher, Tough luck. The PD just tries to make his program better, why is that wrong again? Keep studying hard, work hard, the world doesn't stop once you get to med-school 🙂
 
It all boils down to American taxpayers paying $100K+ per year to train physicians in American hospitals. Unless the federal government steps in to dictate how that money should be spent, it is up to the programs and hospitals to choose which people they want.

This issue is one of public choice theory in that programs make decisions in their best interest about who to prematch/hire/rank . Whether such a decision is in the best interests of the patient, hospital, community, country, world, or society at large is difficult to answer.
 
europeanIMG said:
What do you AMGs REALLY think about IMGs? Since you are all anonymous, tell me what you really think, no politically correct bull****!
Click to expand...

I'm assuming this entire thread can be summed up with a single word that says more about human nature than it does actual knowledge: "skeptical".
 
tncekm said:
I'm assuming this entire thread can be summed up with a single word that says more about human nature than it does actual knowledge: "skeptical".
Click to expand...

more like: self-interest. AMGs will keep repeating the same arguments that have already been made in this thread. while FMGs will keep repeating their own arguments to support their case. it's the same old battle of "us" vs. "them" going round and round. everybody is just looking out for their own interests. if you've been in this game for a bit you realize it's full of social/career climbers and nobody really cares about anybody but themselves.
 
PostCall said:
more like: self-interest. AMGs will keep repeating the same arguments that have already been made in this thread. while FMGs will keep repeating their own arguments to support their case. it's the same old battle of "us" vs. "them" going round and round. everybody is just looking out for their own interests. if you've been in this game for a bit you realize it's full of social/career climbers and nobody really cares about anybody but themselves.
Click to expand...
Oh, you're definitely right, especially about the social/career climbers--I love listening to all of those self righteous bastards. You know who they are from the first few weeks of MS1. lol. But, I still don't toss aside "skeptical". I'd just expand my answer to "skepticism and self-interest".
 
The fact is that PD's make the decision.. they decide whether to rank the AMG higher than the IMG.

If you're a nice AMG with solid stats then it won't be a competition at all; you will win over the IMG 9/10 times.

If you're an AMG with sub-par stats (but passing), well you might not beat the top 1% IMG, but you probably will get your speciality at a good place. If you did go unmatched, then you probably didn't assess your competitiveness accurately when applying to residency.
 
PirateHotel said:
The fact is that PD's make the decision.. they decide whether to rank the AMG higher than the IMG.

If you're a nice AMG with solid stats then it won't be a competition at all; you will win over the IMG 9/10 times.

If you're an AMG with sub-par stats (but passing), well you might not beat the top 1% IMG, but you probably will get your speciality at a good place. If you did go unmatched, then you probably didn't assess your competitiveness accurately when applying to residency.
Click to expand...

👍

Couldnt have said it better.
 
cosine said:
I went to a top 20 Undergraduate school. I did poorly! i made alot of mistakes, I made alot of bad decisions. Instead of studying, I would go out with my friends and watch a basketball game. I would sit around a socialize till 3AM. I would do anything and everything, except for any form of studying.

Point being, I made mistakes, and going to the Caribbean was a second chance for me. I got my act together. I started studying and above all I became mature. I got a 99 on Step(Studied for 6 weeks) and have done well on all my clinical rotations.

This is America people, we get second chances here! Ever here of Mike Vick? The guy made a mistake, went to jail, and now is playing football again.

I didnt commit a crime, i didnt commit a felony, if anything I might have a drank a little too much in college. Just because I didnt get into an american medical school does NOT make me inferior to you.
Click to expand...

No, but there are consequences for doing poorly as an undergrad (which despite your level of maturity you still don't seem to accept). Btw you are getting a second chance, you are just upset that it is not as good as the first chance you had and blew.
 
cosine said:
I went to a top 20 Undergraduate school. I did poorly! i made alot of mistakes, I made alot of bad decisions. Instead of studying, I would go out with my friends and watch a basketball game. I would sit around a socialize till 3AM. I would do anything and everything, except for any form of studying.

Point being, I made mistakes, and going to the Caribbean was a second chance for me. I got my act together. I started studying and above all I became mature. I got a 99 on Step(Studied for 6 weeks) and have done well on all my clinical rotations...I didnt commit a crime, i didnt commit a felony, if anything I might have a drank a little too much in college. Just because I didnt get into an american medical school does NOT make me inferior to you.
Click to expand...

Second chances are great, but that doesn't change the fact that people (rightfully) make generalizations based on probabilities. And, it's much more probable that you'll have an underperforming IMG than an AMG. So, your argument is a non-issue because you're only considering "yourself" while ignoring the bigger picture.

This is America people, we get second chances here! Ever here of Mike Vick? The guy made a mistake, went to jail, and now is playing football again.
Click to expand...
Okay, EXTREEEEEMELY poor example. If you think Mike Vick is sorry for his actions and not simply the effects they had on him, then you're nowhere near as "mature" as you feel that you have become. The guy tortured animals... not only any animal, but dogs. Dogs are probably one of the most loving, amazing animals to ever grace this planet, and he fought and killed them--against their will--for his own personal entertainment. He got a second chance because (a) the NFL is greedy,and (b) die-hard fans are completely illogical people 🙄😱😡👎 If it were up to me, that guy would still be in jail, he'd be kicked out of the NFL, and and his wealth would be re-allocated to animal rescues.
 
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This article abotu the brain drain in Africa made me think of this thread.
One field that has seen much of its talent exit the country is healthcare. Dr. Mariama Awumbila, head of the center for migration studies at the University of Ghana, said the migration of skilled health workers has had a serious impact on the country.

"In the early 2000s there were quite a number of districts that didn't have a doctor, and some wards didn't even have a nurse," she told CNN.

"In the late 1990s and early 2000s our infant mortality rate increased, and that is associated with the peak of the migration of health professionals."
Click to expand...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/04/02/oldest.graduate.brain.drain/index.html

People who stay in their native country to work have a greater incentive to try to improve conditions there than people who have moved thousands of miles away do. Even if you don't care about the issue of unemployed Americans (either AMG or IMG), then the issue of how the brain drain affects the person's home country is also something to think about.
 
peppy said:
This article abotu the brain drain in Africa made me think of this thread.


http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/04/02/oldest.graduate.brain.drain/index.html

People who stay in their native country to work have a greater incentive to try to improve conditions there than people who have moved thousands of miles away do. Even if you don't care about the issue of unemployed Americans (either AMG or IMG), then the issue of how the brain drain affects the person's home country is also something to think about.
Click to expand...

Just an FYI - a few of those countries face the same problems as the USA. E.g. many of the doctors will stay in the big cities. Hence, the big cities in those countries will have too many doctors, and the places that need them, dont (there are obviously some exceptions).

The only difference is, in the US, you would have IMGs coming in, who would be ready to do their residency and even practice in, say North Dakota - thus, filling up that shortage; whereas in places like Africa, that may not be the case.
 
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peppy said:
This article abotu the brain drain in Africa made me think of this thread.


http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/04/02/oldest.graduate.brain.drain/index.html

People who stay in their native country to work have a greater incentive to try to improve conditions there than people who have moved thousands of miles away do. Even if you don't care about the issue of unemployed Americans (either AMG or IMG), then the issue of how the brain drain affects the person's home country is also something to think about.
Click to expand...
peppy, NOOOOooooooooo!

"Never bring a knife to a gunfight. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns."


The 'Brain Drain' of physicians - historical antecedents to an ethical debate
The Metrics of the Physician Brain Drain
 
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IMGs come to this country because they can make more money. which is why you have 45 year old IMG attendings willing to start over as an intern here. don't buy the story that they're doing it for any other reason. it's about the money...always has been, always will be.
 
I love IMG's. My pops is an IMG. I am an AMG. The majority of people I work with are IMG's. They are some of the finest physicians.

And there's bad ones, too. But there's lots of bad AMG's as well.

Props to all IMG's who leave everything behind-family, work, life, food, culture-to come here and start over. It is not easy. Only the best of the best IMGs get to come here and let's be real...that's one hell of an endeavor.

PS We need you in this country with the doctor shortage...don't forget that-even though people may not act like it.
 
PostCall said:
IMGs come to this country because they can make more money. which is why you have 45 year old IMG attendings willing to start over as an intern here. don't buy the story that they're doing it for any other reason. it's about the money...always has been, always will be.
Click to expand...


Life is all about survival and striving for a better way of living with whatever skills you got...period

In my village in India, we have to get as many buckets as we can, turn on all of the faucets, and when the water dept turns on the water for five minutes, get and save all the water you can for that day.

Forget about the money...there's much bigger issues (although money does bring running water whenever you want it in the US by turning on a faucet)
 
Ash MD said:
Life is all about survival and striving for a better way of living with whatever skills you got...period

Forget about the money...there's much bigger issues (although money does bring running water whenever you want it in the US by turning on a faucet)
Click to expand...

👍

I just turn a blind eye to the whiners after I went through the 2010 match list. After Ivy league institutions went unmatched in Anesthesia and OBGYN, I was like...yeah, whatever. Stop cribbing that people are taking your jobs. People just dont apply to the right places. Someone said it well- any reasonable AMG who applies and ranks smartly will match into a good program. A PD would rather than 48 AMGs and 2 IMGs (just for diversity) rather than take 35 AMGs and 15 IMGs. You should see some of the ROLs on the IM thread....people rank 4 programs. And then they crib I didnt match.

I do support the scramble being AMG first, then US-IMG, then non-US IMG idea though...that should provide a solution to the physician shortage as well.
 
Ash MD said:
Life is all about survival and striving for a better way of living with whatever skills you got...period

In my village in India, we have to get as many buckets as we can, turn on all of the faucets, and when the water dept turns on the water for five minutes, get and save all the water you can for that day.

Forget about the money...there's much bigger issues (although money does bring running water whenever you want it in the US by turning on a faucet)
Click to expand...

so FMGs decide to run to the U.S. instead of staying and bettering/helping their own country because they know it's just easier to come to the U.S. and make more money and therefore have a better lifestyle. that's the bottom line truth no matter how much philosophical spin you want to put on it. i'm not blaming as in my previous posts i described how my dad's an FMG too, but let's be real. as it's been said follow the money trail and it will almost always lead you to the motive/truth.
 
PostCall said:
so FMGs decide to run to the U.S. instead of staying and bettering/helping their own country because they know it's just easier to come to the U.S. and make more money and therefore have a better lifestyle. that's the bottom line truth no matter how much philosophical spin you want to put on it. i'm not blaming as in my previous posts i described how my dad's an FMG too, but let's be real. as it's been said follow the money trail and it will almost always lead you to the motive/truth.
Click to expand...
👍

So true.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Heck, for the most part, the benefit is to us here in the U.S. But this is the core reason.

I was reading posts about avenues for doing research and teaching...please, own it. It is the money and lifestyle.

Doesn't make you a bad person.
 
PostCall said:
so FMGs decide to run to the U.S. instead of staying and bettering/helping their own country because they know it's just easier to come to the U.S. and make more money and therefore have a better lifestyle. that's the bottom line truth no matter how much philosophical spin you want to put on it. i'm not blaming as in my previous posts i described how my dad's an FMG too, but let's be real. as it's been said follow the money trail and it will almost always lead you to the motive/truth.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. And, it's absolutely ridiculous that--after 5,000 years of civilization--this hasn't become a painfully obvious fact to everyone.

When there are 7,000,000,0000 people on this earth we cannot be limited to thinking about how things "should be". We've got to deal with the reality of human nature, and manipulate it to work toward the greater good. So, anybody who plans on responding to this logic with, "well, that's not fair/right/just/how it should be/etc" can save themselves the energy.
 
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ResidentMD said:
👍

I just turn a blind eye to the whiners after I went through the 2010 match list. After Ivy league institutions went unmatched in Anesthesia and OBGYN, I was like...yeah, whatever. Stop cribbing that people are taking your jobs. People just dont apply to the right places. Someone said it well- any reasonable AMG who applies and ranks smartly will match into a good program. A PD would rather than 48 AMGs and 2 IMGs (just for diversity) rather than take 35 AMGs and 15 IMGs. You should see some of the ROLs on the IM thread....people rank 4 programs. And then they crib I didnt match.

I do support the scramble being AMG first, then US-IMG, then non-US IMG idea though...that should provide a solution to the physician shortage as well.
Click to expand...
Scramble? Did you mean match?

PostCall said:
so FMGs decide to run to the U.S. instead of staying and bettering/helping their own country because they know it's just easier to come to the U.S. and make more money and therefore have a better lifestyle. that's the bottom line truth no matter how much philosophical spin you want to put on it. i'm not blaming as in my previous posts i described how my dad's an FMG too, but let's be real. as it's been said follow the money trail and it will almost always lead you to the motive/truth.
Click to expand...
Dude, this whole world is based on exchanging pieces of paper worth nothing more than the paper it's printed on. You can't escape it or else you'll end up like the Ted Kaczinski in the middle of the woods writing some manifesto about how modern society is corrupt.

I'm pretty sure that IMGs coming here aren't thinking about the global impact of "brain drain" or have some driving notion of "changing the world". They just want to get the F out so they can live a better life and provide better opportunities for their kids. Following this money trail what motive/truth will you ultimately discover? Most just want to have a good job, not be worried about 3rd world politics, and have a safe place for their kids to grow up. So the money trail does lead to a motive.. but it's not as sinister as what you may be suggesting. What's so wrong with wanting to have money anyway?
 
Rabbit Hole said:
Scramble? Did you mean match?


Dude, this whole world is based on exchanging pieces of paper worth nothing more than the paper it's printed on. You can't escape it or else you'll end up like the Ted Kaczinski in the middle of the woods writing some manifesto about how modern society is corrupt.

I'm pretty sure that IMGs coming here aren't thinking about the global impact of "brain drain" or have some driving notion of "changing the world". They just want to get the F out so they can live a better life and provide better opportunities for their kids. Following this money trail what motive/truth will you ultimately discover? Most just want to have a good job, not be worried about 3rd world politics, and have a safe place for their kids to grow up. So the money trail does lead to a motive.. but it's not as sinister as what you may be suggesting. What's so wrong with wanting to have money anyway?
Click to expand...

Well said.

And I meant scramble. The match should be open to everyone...if someone has put in the hard work, they deserve a fair shot at the best places; regardless of their citizenship.
 
ResidentMD said:
Well said.

And I meant scramble. The match should be open to everyone...if someone has put in the hard work, they deserve a fair shot at the best places; regardless of their citizenship.
Click to expand...
Nice. Thanks for the clarification. 🙂
 
Rabbit Hole said:
I'm pretty sure that IMGs coming here aren't thinking about the global impact of "brain drain" or have some driving notion of "changing the world". They just want to get the F out so they can live a better life and provide better opportunities for their kids. Following this money trail what motive/truth will you ultimately discover? Most just want to have a good job, not be worried about 3rd world politics, and have a safe place for their kids to grow up. So the money trail does lead to a motive.. but it's not as sinister as what you may be suggesting. What's so wrong with wanting to have money anyway?
Click to expand...

i agree with u. i just don't buy any disengenuous stories they peddle about why they're bailing on their country to come here. their countries desperately needs doctors but that doesn't stop them from pan-applying to 200+ different residences across the U.S. in a dozen different specialties and writing differently tailored personal statements for each specialty to feign "interest" in it when in reality they just want a spot...any spot, any hospital, any state...so they can come here because they know they will make more money/better lifestyle.
 
PostCall said:
i agree with u. i just don't buy any disengenuous stories they peddle about why they're bailing on their country to come here. their countries desperately needs doctors but that doesn't stop them from pan-applying to 200+ different residences across the U.S. in a dozen different specialties and writing differently tailored personal statements for each specialty to feign "interest" in it when in reality they just want a spot...any spot, any hospital, any state...so they can come here because they know they will make more money/better lifestyle.
Click to expand...

Let's not generalize...it only makes people take whatever you subsequently/previously post less seriously.

There are some like that, but I know enough who arent (probably more than the number who are just "hungry" for a spot).
 
ResidentMD said:
Let's not generalize...it only makes people take whatever you subsequently/previously post less seriously.

There are some like that, but I know enough who arent (probably more than the number who are just "hungry" for a spot).
Click to expand...

generalizations are generally true otherwise they wouldn't exist. who do u think most of those applicants are when a residency reports they received 4,000 applicants for a few spots?
 
I just want to add that though IMGs might come here for more money for themselves and a better lifestyle for their future generation(s), many also send a good portion of money saved by exercising great thrift back to their families so that their own parents/siblings/village might not have to endure water/power shortages. Thus to some extent they contribute to some prosperity in the rural areas of developing nations. I personally know many IMGs who run two households, even on a resident's income.

With selflessness as the motive, surely wanting to be in USA for more money is not wrong?
 
JelloBrain said:
I just want to add that though IMGs might come here for more money for themselves and a better lifestyle for their future generation(s), many also send a good portion of money saved by exercising great thrift back to their families so that their own parents/siblings/village might not have to endure water/power shortages. Thus to some extent they contribute to some prosperity in the rural areas of developing nations. I personally know many IMGs who run two households, even on a resident's income.

With selflessness as the motive, surely wanting to be in USA for more money is not wrong?
Click to expand...

And is it good for the U.S. for all that money to be going overseas? No. It is not (should not be) the responsibility of the U.S. to train other countries' doctors and watch them hoard the money they earn so they can "contribute to some prosperity in the rural areas of developing nations". It would be better for the U.S. if Americans got American training positions (which are funded by American tax dollars), contributed some prosperity in the rural ares of the U.S., and stimulated the U.S. economy in general.

I'm not saying I think it's a bad idea for individual doctors to come here (for them), I'm just saying as a policy, allowing foreign doctors to come here to train as much as they want, enticing the best and the brightest from every country in the world with better quality of life and salary to leave their home country (which may be needy for doctors), so that they can take their hefty doctor salary back to their country is not a good system for anyone except the individual doing it. Everyone else pays.
 
PostCall said:
IMGs come to this country because they can make more money. which is why you have 45 year old IMG attendings willing to start over as an intern here. don't buy the story that they're doing it for any other reason. it's about the money...always has been, always will be.
Click to expand...


I know doctors/professors from Europe who to America simply because they can get more money for their research. They get about the same salary as in Europe. Academic salaries in the US are not extraordinary.

I am sure lots of doctors (the majority) move to America because of the money. But what the heck is wrong with that? When your forefathers moved to America from e.g. Europe some 100 years ago they moved for exactly the same reason. I do understand that some of you don´t like competition but I´d never think you would find it morally wrong to do the same thing your forefathers did.
 
europeanIMG said:
I do understand that some of you don´t like competition but I´d never think you would find it morally wrong to do the same thing your forefathers did.
Click to expand...

morally wrong? how easy is it for a U.S. citizen from a U.S. med school to do a residency in Europe (or most any other country)? almost impossible compared to somebody from any med school in the world getting a residency in the U.S. didn't the U.K. effectively ban foreign doctors from their residencies? foreign countries all but eliminate competition from doctors outside their own country, so what entitles them to our residencies when they don't reciprocate?
 
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