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Sorry for the confusion, but what are the major differences? Arent they both allowed to prescribe meds under physician order, etc.?
Thanks.
Thanks.
JamesD said:Sorry for the confusion, but what are the major differences? Arent they both allowed to prescribe meds under physician order, etc.?
Thanks.
PACtoDOC said:2 words: medical knowledge
acutecarenp said:Two more words:
Responses like that are one of the reasons why most efforts, to date, to form an alliance between NPs and PAs (such as National mid level practitioner organizations) have been nothing more than futile.
Keep up the good work!
P.S. Another difference is that you cannot be an NP without a Masters Degree.
PACtoDOC said:What will the NP's say when all the PA programs are Master's programs, which is basically a reality near fruition already?
acutecarenp said:Two more words:
Responses like that are one of the reasons why most efforts, to date, to form an alliance between NPs and PAs (such as National mid level practitioner organizations) have been nothing more than futile.
Keep up the good work!
P.S. Another difference is that you cannot be an NP without a Masters Degree.
prince_moses said:Here is a better question what is the difference between an RN and PA?, we dont have PA's here in Canada and just wanted to know and is PA a degree program like nursing or a diploma.?
emedpa said:pa's are clinicians. they see pts,perform histories and physical exams, order tests, interpret them,perform procedures, write prescriptions, and arrange follow up and referals.
nurses follow orders written by pa's/md/do/np folks and do not have any authority on their own to order medications or interpret studies.
both roles are important and needed for a facility to run.
most pa programs are graduate level programs taken by folks with prior degrees and experience as paramedics, nurses, resp. therapists and other health care professionals. for general info on the pa profession see www.aapa.org
as an aside pa's do work in canada in your armed forces as well as in manitoba in the civilian sector. I think they call them clinical associates or something similar in manitoba but they are the same creature.
diabeticfootdr said:Prince_Moses is from Canada, EmedPA, you're being too defensive . . . in many other countries an RN functions like a PA and can even write simple prescriptions. I did diabetes research in England and surgery in Germany. It was like that in both countries.
LCR
PACtoDOC said:Perhaps if you were a full-spectrum physician you would understand what it means to be someone's doctor. My suggestion would be that you and NPtobe pack your bags and move to Germany or england. Healthcare here is dictated by science and by physicians. I don't really care what happens in those places.
diabeticfootdr said:I am a physician. And you are very narrow minded if you "don't care what happens" in other countries. Medicine is becoming more of a global community with information sharing. For your information, the science is more advanced in European countries with fewer regulations on research.
We're all in this for the advancement of patient well-being. Perhaps you found it necessary to further your medical education PAC to DOC to advance your own ego. PATIENTS are 1st priority.
LCR
So I would say currently the main difference is NPs have a background with some clinical experience and their perspective is more that of a nursing background and incorporate medicine as well into their practice. PAs are taught by MDs and lack clinical experience so their perspective is that of a medical model.
PACtoDOC said:I mean if you are a physician, then why are you limited to certain anatomical regions in surgery and treatment?
diabeticfootdr said:True that DPM's have a scope of practice limited to the foot and ankle, but every physician has a self-limited scope of practice. NO ophthalmologist would do orthopedic surgery, NO urologist would read head CTs. Are they legally allowed to do "diagnose and treat human beings", YES. But, they operating out of their "area of expertise" and exposing themselves to unnecessary liability.
According to Medicare, DPM's are physicians and surgeons of the foot and ankle. We are independent practitioners. I have an unlimited license to diagnose (example: a patient that presents with ankle edema may CHF, venous stasis, renal failure) but a limited license to treat. I have my own hospital admission privileges. If I have a diabetic patient admitted to my service, I do the admission H&P, write orders for all their medications, and oversee their entire care. Now if they had uncontrolled HTN or went in to DKA, I would be stupid to treat that myself without a medicine consult. But with high-risk diabetic patients, I do give them peri-operative beta-blockers, I do give them statins, and place them on insulin drips.
Not denying the scope of practice point you're making. Just showing where we may do more than you think.
LCR
Sinnman said:My problem is with people who go to a part-time, 18 month program (of which a substantial proportion of which is not even directly related to patient care) and think they know and can do everything that a physician can.
Even though I didn't post anything against podiatrists, I don't want to see a DPM bashing thread.
hospPA said:Matt,
That is a great question! I really wonder what they will say.
My take: NP's and PA's basically compete for the same jobs, unless the physician has a personal preference to one or the other (Like, "prefers medical training" or "will work for cheaper because there are more of them"). Both professions practice medicine under the supervision of a physician. NP's "call" this supervision "collaboration". Do not fool yourself however, it IS supervision. It should be. How can you be independent with a couple years nursing experience and two years of part-time schooling? I have no idea.
The other issue is that one who practices medicine should be trained in medicine, right? That is not the case for NP's.
Let me qualify this by saying that I work with many great NP's. They are great because of course they are smart and they have abandoned the independent practice crap that is fed to students in NP school. They realize that they are indeed practicing medicine and therefore took the time to learn it.
Pat, RN, PA-C, MPAS
BSN said:You have it wrong. NPs have a master degree which is a min of 6 years of education. After the first 4 years to get BSN they must sit for RN license which is not easy, often need to know more then you are allowed to use .RN License exam have questions such as what does the nurse expect the will be ordered (so you need to have an understanding of medicine). Even before we finish our BSN we have a lot of what you call "medical Knowledge". We know our medications what they are used for and side effect. WE understand disorders and their early and late sign/symptoms. We know our labs why they are abnormal what should be done. I can go on forever Call it what you want nursing/medical education it is very much the same. Then we need a min of one year clinical experience to reinforce this concept. We have a license as RN and are responsible for understanding the care we are providing, not just the technical aspect. Ok, then you take the GRE and apply to masters program. The masters program is 2 full years, NOT PART TIME. If you want to go part time this will take longer like 3-4 years. The NP education is just a different way of teaching thing such as OD and MD, not any less. Many studies have shown that NP provides good health care, one printed in JAMA.
NPs are not mini docs but help the doc to provide healthcare in a new ways, which patient seem to like. They bring something new to the table.
I can see you are a PA thus putting down NP education, why do people do this. I want to be an NP but will not but down PA because we are both mid-level prac. Working together to better patient care is the goal right, not fighting among ourselves.
Sinnman said:BSN, I have to tell you that I find your posts offensive. In fact, it seems that your responses are generating a lot of the animosity that is brewing on this forum.
Let me be specific:
"We know our medications what they are used for and side effect. WE understand disorders and their early and late sign/symptoms. We know our labs why they are abnormal what should be done."
Yes you do know some knowledge of this. It is at a very cursory level that is enough to understand how to function as a nurse.
"Call it what you want nursing/medical education it is very much the same."
Umm, no, no it's not. The education of a physician and a nurse are completely different. Why do you feel qualified to make such a statement? Have you experienced both?
"The masters program is 2 full years, NOT PART TIME."
Wrong again. As I have posted before, there are MANY schools that offer a NP is as little as 18 months "full time" and 2 years part-time. These include some top tier schools.
"The NP education is just a different way of teaching thing such as OD and MD, not any less."
I find this particularly insulting. An MD is not just a "different" education; it is FAR more complex, many TIMES longer and much more involved. You insult everyone on this board that holds or is completing a doctorate in anything (dentistry, medicine or others) by this statement.
Also, as I have stated before, I do have quite a bit of authority on this. I am a nurse, with a bachelors degree, that took NP classes and then went to medical school. I respect nurses a lot. I still work as an RN but your comments are simply out of line.
Please do not continue to insult people, undermine their educational endeavors and spew misleading statements on this forum. In fact, unless you care to contribute information about allied health providers interested in a medical career, perhaps you should stop posting on studentdoctor and join one of the nursing forums.
Mike MacKinnon said:Well said
Mike MacKinnon said:Well said
I too agree that BSN is pushing it. I have been a nurse for a long time and have progressed up the ladder to waht i think is the most independant an RN can be. There isnt a comparison between RN's and MD/DO, the education is vastly superior in the Physician role.
I realize you are trying to be pro-Nurse, but you are going about it the wrong way. In order to create change for nurses that is positive you might want to become politically active in nursing organizations, this is not the place for it.
Can you stop jacking up the "DO"...typos are okay, but not for two lettersBSN said:Ok, I can clearly see my messages are misread, maybe it is the way I write them, sorry. I would never compare OD and MD to nursing education that is not my intention. I was saying the like DO and MD are both doctors but educated by a dif model then I went on the compare this to PA and NP saying that they are both mid level prac educated in dif model. You are right there is NO comparison between RN and MD/Do; again I think there was a misunderstanding.
Ok, well again I would like to say SORRY, I guess my messages are misread/miswritten. Everything i said sounds like it was taken a dif. but i guess that is the thing about post, I will not try to explain it now but jsut say, SORRY FOR THE MISUNDERSTANDING. I as just trying to educate people on nursing.
nitecap said:I conclude that if the new grad NP and PA got for the most part the same education at their respective programs, which for the most part they do. That upon graduation the NP especially if they have Critical care experience is a far more effective practitioner. This statement of course does not account for PA's that maybe do have more clinical experience upon entering PA school.
Now give the PA a few years of clinical experience working and actualy getting more than the 1.5 or so yrs of clical experience that they receive in school and I have no doubt that the PA with be just as effective as any NP out there. My 2 cents.
hospPA said:As to your first paragraph, what do you think of this? Take the same exact BSN and send them to PA school vs. sending them to NP school. Who would be better at providing medical care? I say the PA.
Pat
zenman said:The PA might be better at providing "medical care" which is exactly why I'll be starting NP school this Fall. At UAB, I'll be taking some electives such as Spirituality in Healthcare, Herbals and Nutritional Supplements, and Complementary Therapies and Integrative Health Care, for example. This is where the medicine of the 21st century is heading so why waste my time in PA school? We each have our own path to follow.
hospPA said:Great. Maybe you can get some randomized, double blind, controlled studies going on some of that stuff. I would LOVE to use other things then our current medications if they were PROVEN to work. I will stick with EBM for now, thanks.
hospPA said:Wow, 47-50 credits in 18 months for acute care adult NP. That seems like a pretty quick track to take care of acutely ill patients. I hope all the applicants to that program have significant ICU RN experience. Like 2 years or more.
Anyway, with all that spiritual stuff you are likely doing the PC track, right?
Pat
hospPA said:Trends like echinacea doesn't work and the like
Seriously, I realize complimetary medicine has a place, but you also need to know regular medicine as well, so you don't let someone die when there is a proven medicinal remedy to their problem.
Pat
zenman said:The PA might be better at providing "medical care" which is exactly why I'll be starting NP school this Fall. At UAB, I'll be taking some electives such as Spirituality in Healthcare, Herbals and Nutritional Supplements, and Complementary Therapies and Integrative Health Care, for example. This is where the medicine of the 21st century is heading so why waste my time in PA school? We each have our own path to follow.
Carolina Girl said:For someone whose screen name is "ZENman" you seem to be very preoccupied with labels.
Are you trying to be antagonistic? Or are you truly myopic enough to believe that holistic care and allopathic education are mutually exclusive?
Maybe that's how things are in your world, but in mine people's care has more to do with their individual character and less with their educational background.
Follow whatever path suits you - but consider dropping the stereotypes. Or changing your screen name to something that suits you. Insults and antagonism, spouting from dualistic attachments to labels, is not Zen at all.
oldManDO2009 said:This is quackery at its worst - if you had solid scientific research to back such claims (double blind studies and not some nut on a paid infomercial) than this would be more accepted! I think "holistic" or integrative medicine has its place but as part of the whole approach and not some separate treatment that conflicts with more accepted practices of medicine.
I will probably get flamed for my rant but this herb crap really hits a sore spot!
guetzow said:More like, Zenwannabe.