Foreigners studying here

endlesslove · Apr 16, 2005

After judging some of the recent posts by foreign students (i.e. began learning English as a second language just a few years ago), I just have one question to ask everybody:

Honestly, how much more lenient are pharmacy schools towards foreign students?

I am not trying to sound like some superior egoist, and I know nobody is perfect and spelling and grammar mistakes are bound to happen, but when you have more than a few of these mistakes + definite holes in your sentences (i.e. leaving out conjunctions such that you get run-on I understand that in the field of pharmacy (and many other health professions), communication both VERBAL and WRITTEN are HIGHLY important, especially in the admissions process. This makes sense b/c when you have more than a few spelling/grammar mistakes and your sentences do not make sense as a result, you are potentially jeopardizing your patients' health.

I ask this question because I know MANY VERY QUALIFIED students who speak perfect English and shined in their applications and at their interviews but did not make it into pharmacy school. Yet, I read about foreigners getting into pharmacy school and this is GREAT for them, but some of these ppl seriously have major communication issues even when using everyday jargon--how do you expect patients to understand them when they use science jargon?? it is already hard enough for some patients to understand our medical jargon and some have died as a result, but now throw in this English grammar/language problem, and oh man, I do not even want to imagine the results...

Is there maybe a quota at some schools??

Please do not get me wrong--I am not trying to pick on foreigners getting into US Pharmacy schools...I REALLY am happy for them for having achieved such a great accomplishment given the language barrier...but I'm just trying to point out that honestly, regardless of their shining personality, well-proof-read essays, good TOEFL scores, those who can't SPEAK or WRITE good English (by 'good' I mean barely no mistakes as if you were born here such that others can easily understand you the first time) really shouldn't be admitted...it's a danger to our patients (unless these patients speak the same mother language as the pharmacist 😛)

PS--I'm just trying to discuss this topic seriously. So, don't respond if you want to point out any little grammar or spelling mistakes here 🙂

ISU_Steve · Apr 16, 2005

Try learning a foreign language to the point where you could study a professional program in the country of the language's origin and see how hard it is just to begin to approach the ability to function at that level. Let alone the near-native fluency you are speaking of.

I'm a German language minor in school, and one of my professors said that even if I had a Ph.D level education in German, it would take at least 5 years of living in Germany and speaking German full time before I ever even could begin to consider myself totally fluent. It is that hard to do. And from what I have started noticing about English, since I began learning German, is that it would be even more difficult to learn English because of the way our language is constructed compared to others.

Because we are the most prominent country on the face of the planet (for good and for bad reasons), we have an obligation to help to educate people, because that is the only way we can truly influence what happens in this world. You can not change the heart of a man at the point of a bayonet but you can with knowledge.

Just my two cents...

endlesslove · Apr 16, 2005

ISU_Steve said:
Try learning a foreign language to the point where you could study a professional program in the country of the language's origin and see how hard it is just to begin to approach the ability to function at that level. Let alone the near-native fluency you are speaking of.

I'm a German language minor in school, and one of my professors said that even if I had a Ph.D level education in German, it would take at least 5 years of living in Germany and speaking German full time before I ever even could begin to consider myself totally fluent. It is that hard to do. And from what I have started noticing about English, since I began learning German, is that it would be even more difficult to learn English because of the way our language is constructed compared to others.

Because we are the most prominent country on the face of the planet (for good and for bad reasons), we have an obligation to help to educate people, because that is the only way we can truly influence what happens in this world. You can not change the heart of a man at the point of a bayonet but you can with knowledge.

Just my two cents...

thanks for your insight 🙂 i gave up spanish after AP Spanish (more like nap time) in high school, so believe me, I know from personal experience that learning a foreign language can be challenging (that, I do not refuse to admit)...I also understand our duty as one of 'the most prominent country on the face of the planet' to help educate others...so this leads me to my next question: where do you place these foreigner pharmacists so they are the least danger to patients who do not speak their langauge? I personally think those who do not speak that pharmacist's mother language (given the pharmacist has MAJOR communication problems) shouldn't have to sacrifice their health at the expense of someone else's education until both parties can understand each other. my 2 cents...

(sorry, for the lack of a better term, I keep referring to them as foreigners).

flor · Apr 16, 2005

Endlesslove,
I agree with you that a good communication is crucial between the professional and the patient. That's why pharmacy schools interview the candidates to see if they are capable of communicating in writing and speaking. I think just the admission process itself is a selection from those who are not prepared.
However, if communication is such an important aspect in treating patients, then how to treat patients who cannot speak English? How good and efficient would be the service if the pharmacist could not speak the patient's language? Deny him/her service just to avoid misunderstanding that might lead to serious health risks?
I guess the whole point is to get our message through regardless if there is missing a comma or run-on sentence. We should never expect people to be perfect, especially from foreigners because it's already a great achievement to come this far. If they can communicate effectively, that's already good enough. If they are not capable of that, then it's the admission office job to screen for qualified applicants.

gaku · Apr 16, 2005

flor said:
However, if communication is such an important aspect in treating patients, then how to treat patients who cannot speak English? How good and efficient would be the service if the pharmacist could not speak the patient's language? Deny him/her service just to avoid misunderstanding that might lead to serious health risks?
I guess the whole point is to get our message through regardless if there is missing a comma or run-on sentence. We should never expect people to be perfect, especially from foreigners because it's already a great achievement to come this far. If they can communicate effectively, that's already good enough.

I totally agree with you. 🙂

ilovepharmacy · Apr 16, 2005

To have perfect communication skills to work in the pharmacy I work in now but as a pharmacist, I would need to master Spanish, Vietnamese, and Chinese. :laugh:

Seriously - iIsn't the issue that Flor brought up scary? At the pharmacy I work at there are three English-speaking pharmacists, but 75% of our patients are Spanish speaking (most don't know any English). All this time the pharmacy clerks have been translating things for the pharmacists and also counseling at times (majority are fluent in Spanish. Scary, no? Just recently, one of the pharmacists started studying some pharmacy-related Spanish phrases - which I must say has been quite amusing 😀

I don't think adcoms would be lenient on such an issue - Like Flor said, I think the adcoms realize from the interview whether or not an individual can communicate effectively enough. Even after that, though.. employers would make it an issue - Wouldn't it be more of a liability to them? My dad didn't hire a pharmacist earlier this year, because she spoke poor English - which was a shocker to her/her fam/my mom (Indians are always giving each other hookups :laugh:

).

CSzGirl · Apr 16, 2005

endlesslove said:
Is there maybe a quota at some schools??

Quota? Hardly!

If you go to individual schools' web sites, you'll find that many of them won't even accept foreign applications (some schools won't even accept application from outside of the STATE). Washington told us outright in the information session that priority goes to (1) Washington students, (2) WICCE state students, (3) out of state students and (4) foreign students.

Also, the TOEFL is not easy to pass. We've hosted students from foreign countries who come here specifically to study English. Every single one of them has had to demonstrate a high level of proficiency in order to pass the TOEFL - in fact, I'm not so sure that some native-born English speakers could pass.

ultracet · Apr 16, 2005

ok... i know this is totally not the same but it kinda is....

the same issue arrises when you have people of different dialects trying to communicate. i typically can understand anything (watching mouths helps a lot) but when it comes to areas of the country that run all of their words together it can really be difficult.
there are some in my class who cannot understand someone from the north (we call them yankees) if their life depended on it.

on the patient note... i was working in walmart one day and we had a spanish speaking patient... now i have taken 5 years of spanish and i do not claim to understand part of it and i definitely cannot speak hardly a word. i tried... we had to call a lady in security to help.. when she didn't answer we announced over the loud speaker "anyone who speaks spanish please come to the pharmacy"
this one lady drug her little boy who was in the middle of spanish 1 over to help.

you want to talk dangerous to the patient.... thankfully we can print our sheets in spanish.

ilovepharmacy · Apr 16, 2005

bbmuffin said:
we announced over the loud speaker "anyone who speaks spanish please come to the pharmacy"
this one lady drug her little boy who was in the middle of spanish 1 over to help.

sorry, but thats so hilarious - its something i can imagine my mom doing to my youngest sister "hi, my daughter is taking spanish in HS" :laugh:

AmyShyu · Apr 16, 2005

Language is something you need to "use" to perfect it. two years of speaking or learning a language is never enough to handle a high pressure pharmacy work load and patient care. But now we are getting more training and time to practice our communication skills for the pharmD degree right? For people who can manage to get in the higher education in US, they are either too genius to judge or at least above average college students to be able to stand out and come this far. Speaking ability differs from person to person. it is not up to the individual sometimes.
But like endlesslove said, it will be a danger for the patients if the pharmacist can not communicate efficiently. But with all the technologies and informative lebels and so on, a pharmacist who speaks with "very" "heavy" accent can manage to do patient care, as long as the pharmacist knows what the patients need. If the pharmacist cannot understand the basics of pharmacy, then I don't think he or she will even be hired for that reason or at least won't stay long at that position. I had experienced a lot of heavy accent english speakers in US and believe me my English is better than some of the native speakers(grammer and spelling and sometimes even pronunciation)
I do not believe the admission committees actually give a damn about "english is me second language so it is ok to mess up" thing. If that is what happened, I will be getting me pharmD degree now. or maybe it's just me luck bad...

So...By saying dangering the patients, I assume you mean those who cannot communicate well, and for that my answer will be not just foreigners but native speakers have the same problem only it is more focused on foreigners because of the stereotype. And I do not agree setting a Quota because that will be some kind of discrimination (not bad for someone who failed the sociology huh, test scores don't reflect what you know). I don't think any school will set a quota for foreigners, the priorities of the schools are different but I think it won't take long for them to realize it is not where you are from, but what you are able to.
Good for me, now I can speak Chinese and English, and currently learning Spanish, hopefully I can get a job because of that.
---
I never know I can write this much...thanks for the inspiration. 😀

endlesslove · Apr 17, 2005

touchfish said:
I am a foreigner. All of my friends who are native English speakers were suprised when I told them I got accepted to ? pharmacy schoolS.
I have tried so hard to improve my communication skills but this is not easy. Thanks for telling me that I am a danger to my future patients... 🙁
I guess it will be very hard for me to get a job offer after pharmacy school. So don't worry! I will just go back to my home country... 😉

to touchfish and other 'foreigners,' maybe it's b/c of reading black and white words on SDN, but I am not picking up your message clearly just like you're not picking mine up clearly. I DID acknowledge a 'foreigner's hardwork in MULTIPLE lines (see above) throughout the message, so please do not pick JUST the 'bad' points as if I am picking solely on 'people like you' since it really wouldn't be fair to me. Just give me credit for what I said and I'll give you credit for what you said. Again, I wasn't picking on you guys solely.

and just for a clarification to the original post...I guess what I meant by poor communication skills was communication in English--yeah, places like California has diversity but CA is just ONE of the FIFTY states, so I'm looking at this "foreigner" issue on a national level. Yes, there are many languages like Vietnamese, Chinese, and Spanish, but b/c English is the established US speaking language and (nationally) the majority of the people are not bilingual (I speak only English and Chinese fluently and do not plan on learning another language), I was just saying that communication in English should be very strong (i.e. slightly regarldess of your level of proficiency in another language...again, I argue this ONLY b/c English is the set speaking language in AMERICa, that was all).

Believe me that I do recognize the importance of health professionals being multi-lingual. HOwever, again, I sound like a broken record, English is the primary speaking language in the US and I was looking only at the 'foreigners' issue at a national level, not just in very diverse places like CA (i.e. I'm imagining a white couple walking into CVS in Boston and both parties are not understanding each other b/c the couple speaks only English [I do not see a problem with that; US citizens are not required by law to learn another language] but the health professional speaks English at a below-average level but (insert foreign language) fluently [unlike the married couple, because you're in America, you SORT of "are required by law" to learn English...). Again, I know it must be very hard for foreigners to learn this new language and I really admire their passion (heck, I gave up Spanish and really have no interest in learning another language other than my English and Chinese anymore, possibly French just for fun). Do realize that I am not denying the fact that 'foreigners' try very hard on improving their English.

but thanks bbmuffin for pointing out another way to look at this issue--dialects, something that I did not consider. Unfortunately, this contributes to the poor communication skills I was talking about but I DO realize this is something that is VERY hard to change. For instance, I took a linguistics class last semester and now understand that b/c my parents tried fully learning English well-beyond their "critical period," they will never be able to perfect their communication (i.e. carry accents).

so anyway, yeah, i didn't really have any evil intentions when posting this 🙂

aubieRx · Apr 17, 2005

There are plenty of well qualified AMERICANS in this country. To give spots in an american school to people who are not even americans is, in my mind, silly if they cannot speak english as well as the american candidates with similar qualifications.

Especially if they just "go back to their home country" afterwards.

This sort of nonsense is how the 9/11 terrorists got educations in american universities. Not saying all foreigners are bad I am just saying that things can get really silly sometimes when people are not thinking straight.

With regards to patients who only know spanish: they ought to be the ones out learning english. The pharmacists should not have to learn spanish.

endlesslove · Apr 17, 2005

another thing i wanted to add that another poster reminded me of was: yes, a "foreigner's" proficiency in his/her native language may be invaluable in the healthcare field, but if they can't speak English well (i.e. fairly close to the level a native speaker), they really shouldn't be admitted because there are NUMEROUS well-qualified American applicants who are multi-lingual (not necessarily b/c they took a foreign language course in high school or college; perhaps they were also foreigners to this country and have just mastered the English language or they've been learning all their life here in the US b/c their family speaks it.) The MAIN point is, there are many well-qualified American applicants who have it all as well (proficiency in another language, excellent grades, ECs, LOR, interviews, "interesting" life experiences [this can compensate for a foreigner having a different life exp. and contribute to the class]) and it really is unfair for the well-qualified American applicants (many of who pay taxes or their parents do to Uncle Sam) to lose their spot to a foreigner--if this has to happen, then the foreigners should not be cut any slacks and should be expected to speak English at a level up to par with everyone here. I personally know people (non-foreigners) who have been rejected/waitlisted and it's just hard for me to comfort them knowing that their stats/interviews and everything were better in comparison yet the admissions system can sometimes be unfair. Yes, people can be rejected/waitlisted for various reasons, but by "losing their spot to a foreigner," i am referring to the fact that the person had fairly good stats but was rejected/waitlisted just b/c there wasn't enough room and some seats were given to foreigners.

i guess life is just unfair at times and we must just deal with it. hope this doesn't start some racial segregation on SDN :idea:

congrats to those who were lucky enough to get in though--the AdCom probably saw something sparkling in you. 👍

ultracet · Apr 17, 2005

I'm very opposed to the MDs who come from another country...

some countries have med school right after highschool and the education (in my opinion) is lacking

rxgeek · Apr 17, 2005

hi there,
i dont get it why we're trying to discuss something that we dont have capacity to work on???? it doesnt matter who you are ....international or native students... international students pay the same tuitions as other students....or even more .... and when an international student got acceptance to the Pharm school, he or she should have a stronger capacity to handle the professional program to compare whith other students in same class....cause they have to work on extra works that a native students dont have to ( e.g learning language, status preference and so on) .....anyway, for whoever got accepted, just try to finish what you need to do to prepare for the PharmD program....for whom hasnt got accepted, just do whatever you need to do to provide a best opportunity for yourself.....dont waste time on dicussing the issues that we cant not control.....that may be a better way to make other students (both international and native students) feel better.... good luck to all of us....

aubieRx · Apr 17, 2005

A command of the english language should be required for TA jobs as well 😉

We had O chem lab TAs who knew about as much english as i knew chinese. :laugh:

Silverwater · Apr 17, 2005

I, even as an international student, disagree that the TOEFL is too difficult to pass (but then I have been speaking English for 14 years now), but I also disagree that pharm schools are "lenient" to foreigners. Lenient, riiiiight! Many public universities cap the out-of-state and international students admitted at 10%, and the int'l students make up the lesser portion of that 10%. For example, the University of Texas - Austin admitted only 1 int'l student last year. And we do pay international tuition (out-of-state tuition plus miscellaneous fees).

As a side note, some schools require the TSE (Test of Spoken English) as well as the TOEFL from the international students. And the TOEFL tests your grammar, etc. plus writing skills also.

In an environment so hostile to us foreign students, I had no choice but to apply to as many as 12 pharm schools. Hopefully I'll get in somewhere. 😕

- Silverwater

endlesslove · Apr 18, 2005

aubieRx said:
A command of the english language should be required for TA jobs as well 😉

We had O chem lab TAs who knew about as much english as i knew chinese.

trying distinguishing between "reflection" and "refraction" in physics at 8AM when this is a completely new subject to you!! it comes out as "refraction" *sigh* :laugh:

endlesslove · Apr 18, 2005

Silverwater said:
I, even as an international student, disagree that the TOEFL is too difficult to pass (but then I have been speaking English for 14 years now), but I also disagree that pharm schools are "lenient" to foreigners. Lenient, riiiiight! Many public universities cap the out-of-state and international students admitted at 10%, and the int'l students make up the lesser portion of that 10%. For example, the University of Texas - Austin admitted only 1 int'l student last year. And we do pay international tuition (out-of-state tuition plus miscellaneous fees).

As a side note, some schools require the TSE (Test of Spoken English) as well as the TOEFL from the international students. And the TOEFL tests your grammar, etc. plus writing skills also.

In an environment so hostile to us foreign students, I had no choice but to apply to as many as 12 pharm schools. Hopefully I'll get in somewhere. 😕

- Silverwater

probably with a lot of hardwork then the TOEFL will be easier to pass--if only my cousin would try harder (he's not doing it for any healthcare-related programs). anyway, good luck!

Longhorn23 · Apr 18, 2005

Silverwater said:
I, even as an international student, disagree that the TOEFL is too difficult to pass (but then I have been speaking English for 14 years now), but I also disagree that pharm schools are "lenient" to foreigners. Lenient, riiiiight! Many public universities cap the out-of-state and international students admitted at 10%, and the int'l students make up the lesser portion of that 10%. For example, the University of Texas - Austin admitted only 1 int'l student last year. And we do pay international tuition (out-of-state tuition plus miscellaneous fees).

I agree! I believe I was that lone int student last year at UT but I know they accepted me only after I assured them that I will have my green card very soon.

jacst3r · Apr 18, 2005

tho i'm an american i spent most of my younger years back in asia. communicating in english is not realy a problem. however i do feel that i have to work really hard to achieve an english proficiency of an A student straight from the states. in a sense that put me in a lot of disadvantages (writing essays and using "big words" etc). In high school i got a 680 on my math but a mere 530 on the verbal when i study probably just as hard if not harder than most ppl. (i have a feeling that the same thing would happen for the PCAT)in my college years i find myself working twice as hard to comprehend reading materials and taking twice as long to write a paper (still managed to get a B in my writing class) I find myself writing better than average student but nothing close to the A students which pisses me off because i certainly dont feel any less intelligent than them. i think it takes a lot for an int student to become just as competitive as the native born/grown. i can imagine how hard it would be for those whose intelligence are overshadowed by the deficiency of english. (at least i came from a english speaking family so even if i didnt grow up receiving education in english at least it was a lot easier for my to pick it up). i think pharm schools should be understanding when reviewing their apps but unless these int students are going to have some sort of contribution to the states i dont really see much reason for the schools to be linient.

Ray1234 · Feb 10, 2007

endlesslove said:
another thing i wanted to add that another poster reminded me of was: yes, a "foreigner's" proficiency in his/her native language may be invaluable in the healthcare field, but if they can't speak English well (i.e. fairly close to the level a native speaker), they really shouldn't be admitted because there are NUMEROUS well-qualified American applicants who are multi-lingual (not necessarily b/c they took a foreign language course in high school or college; perhaps they were also foreigners to this country and have just mastered the English language or they've been learning all their life here in the US b/c their family speaks it.) The MAIN point is, there are many well-qualified American applicants who have it all as well (proficiency in another language, excellent grades, ECs, LOR, interviews, "interesting" life experiences [this can compensate for a foreigner having a different life exp. and contribute to the class]) and it really is unfair for the well-qualified American applicants (many of who pay taxes or their parents do to Uncle Sam) to lose their spot to a foreigner--if this has to happen, then the foreigners should not be cut any slacks and should be expected to speak English at a level up to par with everyone here. I personally know people (non-foreigners) who have been rejected/waitlisted and it's just hard for me to comfort them knowing that their stats/interviews and everything were better in comparison yet the admissions system can sometimes be unfair. Yes, people can be rejected/waitlisted for various reasons, but by "losing their spot to a foreigner," i am referring to the fact that the person had fairly good stats but was rejected/waitlisted just b/c there wasn't enough room and some seats were given to foreigners.

i guess life is just unfair at times and we must just deal with it. hope this doesn't start some racial segregation on SDN congrats to those who were lucky enough to get in though--the AdCom probably saw something sparkling in you. 👍

Wake up and Smell the Coffee!!! if you think any international student get accepted just because the school wanted a diverse class in the professional school (pharamcy), i suggest you to do some research. They (international students) should be much better than you in all prospectives (except the slang you could use). And i dont think that any pharmacy school has quota for interational students. By the way, they also pay taxes if they hold any jobs in USA.
Let me clarify the fact that internatinal students do not get your spot unless they are well-qualified and suitable to hold the spot in the pharmacy school.

crystalpink · Feb 11, 2007

Silverwater said:
I, even as an international student, disagree that the TOEFL is too difficult to pass

I think the new TOEFL (iBT) is harder than previous TOEFL (pBT and cBT), but if you have been staying for years in a country that has English as primary language, TOEFL won't be too difficult to pass.
From my experience, when I took TOEFL pBT in my country, I got only 523 even though I had taken TOEFL course/preparation class for 4 months and also some English classes >.< Fortunately, community college requires only 450.
After I've been living in the US for 4++ years in the US, I could pass TOEFL iBT without much effort and without preparation.

Dr.Biassi · Feb 11, 2007

I feel lessen with such an animosity and jealousy towards immigrant and foreign students. I believe some americans still have the narrow mind and are close minded.

Pharmacy school is not easy to get in and an international will not get a spot unless they are well-qualified and suitable to hold the spot in the pharmacy school. They study hard and try to master the english language if not perfect it. Do you guys think lingot is english? I don't think so!!! International students speak proper english. That's why they get into pharmacy school. they have all A's and few B's... They have good abilities and that's what get them into pharmacy school and other professional school.

I used also to live abroad though I'm american. I can speak many languages and when I came back here I had some trouble with people who have difficulty with my accent. My question is: why some americans don't have problem with accents and why some have a big deal with it? Those who have problem with it are just haters and closed minded. They are not open for renovation and discovering what is worth it to be called world culture!!! Why then globilization? I will give an advice to my fellow american that hate immigrants and international students to go and see the world.. . Take a trip to Europe, to Asia, to Africa!!! And you will see that there is a bigger world there. The United States is not the only continent on earth. Life is not limited to it and there is more to learn from others people and others culture!!!!!!
MY APOLOGIES IF I HURT ANY OF YOU BY WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE TRUTH......

eleanor_rigby · Feb 11, 2007

aubieRx said:
There are plenty of well qualified AMERICANS in this country. To give spots in an american school to people who are not even americans is, in my mind, silly if they cannot speak english as well as the american candidates with similar qualifications.

Especially if they just "go back to their home country" afterwards.

This sort of nonsense is how the 9/11 terrorists got educations in american universities. Not saying all foreigners are bad I am just saying that things can get really silly sometimes when people are not thinking straight.

With regards to patients who only know spanish: they ought to be the ones out learning english. The pharmacists should not have to learn spanish.

Welcome to global competition.

On a global scale, prestitgious American univerisity's are on the top and many foreign students can increase their chances of success, whether it be back in their native country or here in the States, if they graduate from an American University. Competition is stiff, especially when it comes to grad programs, and they must have had higher qualifications than your fellow native counterparts in order to have taken what they claim as being their seat.

How the hell do you determine one's intention of partaking in a devious scheme whence matriculating a student from another country? How are you going to differentiate these people from others who come from the same country with nothing but honest intentions to work hard and aspire to live a decent life? You can shove your anti-Middle Eastern sentiments elsewhere since you're spewing out narrow-minded nonsense yourself.

And since when did you need to attain the level of fluency of an American citizen in order to communicate as a pharmacist? In pharmacy school, they teach you to counsel the patients as if they were in 2nd grade? or some such level because you can't just throw out medical jargon and expect it to be coherent to them. You don't need to be all that proficient in English in order to give directions in layman's terms.

As for your TA, I too, have dealt with a plethora of science and math professors who are of Chinese or Russian origin and I have trouble understanding them as well. However, their main job isn't to teach you, their priority is whatever research they partake in and teaching is just secondary. It's actually a sad state of affairs if foreigners are exceeding in these fields and our American counterparts are lagging behind.

All Americans do these days is complain and whine about their own inadequacies and blame it on the foreigners who are taking thier jobs. If we want to outcompete others in the global arena, then we have to have the top players on our team, whether they be foreigners or not.

howsoonisnow · Feb 11, 2007

Whoa!! This post is getting WAY out of hand.
First let me say that I was born and raised in the United States, and I do not constantly whine that "foreigners" are taking my seat in pharmacy school or in any other aspect of life, for that matter. I don't formulate generalizations about people from other countries, please act in kind.
I do not even like the word "foreigners." That word reeks with negative connotation and is just rather unpleasant to read. Let's use international students instead.
Second, I know many international students who are bright and articulate who may not have mastered the English language as many would like, but nonetheless are qualified for pharmacy school and will make excellent pharmacists. To the contrary, I know a young lady who recently moved to the US, spent time researching which profs gave the easiest A's in prereq courses, sailed through prepharmacy and had difficulty getting into pharmacy school because she was so worried about clothing, cars, and material possessions that she lacked the basic communication skills necessary to stand out in an interview. (Incidentally she eventually got into a school that didn't require an interview-who knew such a school existed)
Every system has flaws, but to think that you are being passed up because you don't have the right cultural background is just ignorant. If you lack savvy and are politically or socially ignorant, perhaps that might stand out in an interview and be a red mark against you. If you don't get into school, stop looking for a scapegoat-it's more than likely your fault and you should be trying to find a way to make yourself more appealing to an adcom, not disparaging those who toed the line. The problem with our society is that rather than see fault in ourselves, we look to pin blame. That's just plain immature.
Third, I live an area of the country where Spanish is fast becoming the primary language. In my humble opinion, I think a pharmacist who chooses to gain employ in a culturally diverse area should prepare to cater to patients in that area. If they speak Spanish, LEARN SPANISH!!! Pharmacists make a six figure salary and are near the top of the education spectrum. And most of all, we're supposed to care about people!! We have the means and (speaking for most of us) the motivation to better ourselves and give back to our community. Expecting low income familes who only speak a foreign language to learn English just so we can better treat them is ridiculous. I choose to live in Arizona. I chose to learn to effectively communicate in Spanish because it's just easier and I care about the well being of Spanish and English speaking patients alike.

Wake up people! realize that there is a world full of amazing people around you, and just because they don't speak your language doesn't mean they aren't intelligent and don't have feelings.

Sarapary · Feb 11, 2007

So I think Only Native Americans have the right to go to pharmacy school in this country, not those foreigners who immigrated from Europe or Other parts of the world. Right? 😉

KellyBean · Feb 11, 2007

Sarapary said:
So I think Only Indian-Americans have the right to go to pharmacy school in this country, not those foreigners who immigrated from Europe or Other parts of the world. Right? 😉

👍

eleanor_rigby · Feb 11, 2007

Sarapary said:
So I think Only Indian-Americans have the right to go to pharmacy school in this country, not those foreigners who immigrated from Europe or Other parts of the world. Right? 😉

They have no reason to leave their wealthy socialist states. 😛

Sarapary · Feb 11, 2007

eleanor_rigby said:
They have no reason to leave their wealthy socialist states. 😛

Yeah and I don't undrestand why they immigrated here and killed all those Native Americans who owned this land? and now they want to go to pharmacy school here ! 😀

Sunfeet · Feb 11, 2007

Sarapary said:
Yeah and I don't undrestand why they immigrated here and killed all those Indian-American who owned this land? and now they want to go to pharmacy school here ! 😀

You guys kill me. :laugh:

Dr.Biassi · Feb 11, 2007

Sarapary said:
Yeah and I don't undrestand why they immigrated here and killed all those Indian-American who owned this land? and now they want to go to pharmacy school here ! 😀

Lol lol

You guys are awesome!!!!! My good laug of today!!!!
Only indians americans normally have the right to go to pharmacy schools in the USA if they immigrants are not supposed to!!! hahahahahaha

eleanor_rigby · Feb 11, 2007

howsoonisnow said:
.....

"There's a club if you'd like to go
you could meet somebody who really loves you
so you go, and you stand on your own
and you leave on your own
and you go home, and you cry
and you want to die"

😀

twester · Feb 12, 2007

This is an old argument that rages in every country with relatively open immigration policies. I watched it happen when I was an immigrant in Europe and I see it happening in this country as evidenced by some of the voices in this thread. The justification for the standpoint is often based on language skills. The natives feel like they have an entitlement to everything and the immigrants should just sit back and not try to achieve anything. Fortunately, cooler heads prevail and it's possible for any legal resident of this country to achieve any level they are capable of.

I stand amazed at some of my classmates who come from other countries, sometimes under terrible circumstances who are succeeding in a rigorous, English-centered academic program. So what if their pronounciation is a little off, their vocabulary is somewhat limited or their syntax is mixed up with that of their native language? I'm capable of asking people to repeat things and accepting reponsibility for understanding them. I wonder if there have been any studies to show that non-native English people endanger patient populations.

So, I think this old argument has no real solution but acceptance on the part of native-born residents. I feel like my life is richer because of the influence of people from other places. A country full of blond, blue-eyed people with flat, Midwestern accents would be duller than dull.

HarcourtMonopol · Feb 12, 2007

endlesslove said:
I ask this question because I know MANY VERY QUALIFIED students who speak perfect English and shined in their applications and at their interviews but did not make it into pharmacy school.

Were you present at your friends interviews? Or did they simply tell you they "shined" in their respective interviews? Oh, yeah, I'm sure your friends are perfectly objective, unbiased evaluators of themselves. They all probably had really great GPAs, PCAT scores, and, of course, great interviews.

endlesslove said:
Yet, I read about foreigners getting into pharmacy school and this is GREAT for them, but some of these ppl seriously have major communication issues even when using everyday jargon--how do you expect patients to understand them when they use science jargon??

Did you actually talk to these people? Did you witness their interviews? Did you sit down and have a conversation with them? How do you know they have major communication issues? Or are you simply making assumptions based on their written communication on a message board (which, as we all know, isn't necessarily reflective of a person's true writing ability and is certainly not a reflection of one's ability to communicate orally)? My point is that your "leniency to foreigners" theory is based on pure speculation. Provide some evidence that, everything else being equal, the subpar communicating foreigner gets accepted over the perfect speaking American and then maybe I'll believe you. Otherwise, I just don't buy it.

klampster23 · Feb 12, 2007

First of all let's set the record straight. U.S. is not the most prominent country in the world. There's a reason why America is situated below Canada. It's obvious that Canadians speak and communicate better English than you Americans. In fact, statistics show that 1/3 of the countries in the world speak and communicate better English than you Americans! It's no wonder why U.S. has reputation for having low educational standards. Why do you think Canadians pursue pharmacy in the U.S? Easy admissions. It's 7 pharmacy schools (Canada) vs. 100 (U.S.) In Canada, 4,000 applications for 80-100 spots for each school. All pre-pharmacy except Orgo are taught in depth in Canadain high schools, so pre-pharmacy for Canadians is a joke. Maybe one day you Americans will rise to the level of Canadians and other countries (England for example) in terms of speaking and communicating English. Until then, you Americans need to see why us foreigners are getting accepted over you. You want to change that, work on your English! See Canadians communicate peacefully, not with violence. ( LOL....just kidding)

Why do you think Pharmacy is one of the top professions that get sued in the U.S.? Inadequate communication with patients, leading to non-compliancy issues and patients not understanding how to take their meds. Because you Americans aren't communicating properly! You Americans are the ones putting the lives of patients in danger! In pharm school (speaking from experience) you're taught to go through a series of about 15 questions/points during couseling. I've seen you Americans spend 1 minute counseling rather than the approprate 10 min you're taught. (makes patient have more trust in a pharmacist, that they really care and are providing excellent patient care) I don't care if a store does 1,000 prescriptions a day, you don't counsel by saying, "Did the doctor tell you all about this medication, how to take it and what to expect...if this happens..blah blah blah and be aware of blah blah blah while on this medication...ok have a nice day." (horrible counseling) I always spend 8-12 minutes talking with each patient. I don't care if I have 20 people waiting for me. Then It's no wonder us foreigners are getting in.

Also, what are you going to do if you have to counsel a patient who can't speak or understand English. Can you really count on an interpreter if available at that moment. What about privacy issues! Don't forget the chances of the message getting lost when being interpreted or even misinterpreted.

I hope this all doesn't seem unprofessional to you. It just really ticks me off that just because you're American doesn't mean your above the rest of us; because the rest of the world laughs at you, especially how you're education system has progressed! It is not my intent to bash you Americans or claim that Canadians are better. I respect your Doctor of Pharmacy program. Facts are Facts. Everything I've said comes from viable researched sources.

twester · Feb 12, 2007

klampster23 said:
First of all let's set the record straight. U.S. is not the most prominent country in the world. There's a reason why America is situated below Canada. It's [pure drivel]

Funny stuff! :laugh:

GreyFox2002 · Feb 12, 2007

Anti-American hatred, I always love hearing it 👎

mbishop · Feb 12, 2007

this entire thread said:
foreigners

Could you please join the 21st century and stop calling them foreigners. Thank you.

futuredruggist · Feb 13, 2007

For US citizens worried about foreign competition, pharmacy (or other professional school) is actually the way to go. There are far less international students (by %) in pharmacy schools compared to the basic sciences, engineering, math, etc. The US is heavily dependent on foreign labor in the sciences because not enough Americans go into these fields. The reason is because the government subsidizes grad students in this country regardless of origin, but does not subsidize international professional students. Also, there are a surplus of PhDs in the sciences looking for jobs, and a shortage in virtually every health profession. Therefore, nobody interested in pharmacy should be complaining about international competition, as it is quite restricted. The vast majority of the competition are US citizens and those with a green card.

howsoonisnow · Feb 13, 2007

eleanor_rigby said:
"There's a club if you'd like to go
you could meet somebody who really loves you
so you go, and you stand on your own
and you leave on your own
and you go home, and you cry
and you want to die"

😀

LOL - you're cute, thanks for the quote!

BTW, I really think you're groovy, let's go out to a movie

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