D.O. Students Forced on Welfare...

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drusso

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With the increasingly high cost of medical education and sky-rocketing student debt, coupled with the disproportionate number of osteopathic medical schools that depend on tuition dollars from students to cover basic operating expenses, the entire osteopathic medical community should come together to answer the simple question, "Can we do better?"

How long can the profession sustain a system of medical education that over-produces graduates relative to training slots, limits graduates' opportunities for competing for ACGME-approved training slots by not embracing a combined residency match, and continues to fund the building of "branch campuses" of osteopathic medical schools on the backs of D.O. students by annual incremental tuition hikes? The tuition at Pikeville, as cited in the story, is $28K. Most of these graduates will pursue careers in primary care after 3-4 years of residency and compounding interest in student loans.

Trouble is coming. This is the first sign and a major "black eye." This makes the profession look bad in front of the AAMC and other leading medical education groups. Let's hope that good leadership, solid professional stewardship, and conscientious, vision-driven planning prevails over simple greed and sprawl.

I'm all for growing the profession. But the profession should grow by parterning with established and well-endowed academic institutions who can commit to funding the development of COMs through the expensive "growing pains" stages, by partnering with public universities and establishing medical schools to meet the health care needs of the communities they serve, and by partnering with hospitals and health care networks who understand medical education and are dedicated to developing quality graduate level medical programs and residencies.




At Appalachian med school, would-be doctors apply for welfare

ROGER ALFORD

Associated Press


PIKEVILLE, Ky. - For Cindy Herford, the wife of a medical student, walking into the local welfare office and signing up for food stamps wasn't easy.

"That was an ego blow," says Herford, whose husband is entering his second year at the Pikeville College School of Osteopathic Medicine. "I was embarrassed."

But she took comfort in knowing that others were in the same situation at the unique medical school, which draws many of its students from chronically poor central Appalachia and strives to send its graduates back to the same region.

"We have a high percentage of students who are poor," said the school's dean, Dr. John Strosnider. "We try to offer them every opportunity that is legal and available to help ease the financial strain of medical school."

Because of the private nature of welfare programs, no one at the medical school knows how many students are on welfare. Estimates based on anecdotal evidence range from as little as 10 percent by the administration to more than 50 percent by an auxiliary group. That group also estimates that 80 percent to 90 percent of the nontraditional students at the school are on food stamps, and it even distributed informational packets to reassure incoming students they should not be ashamed.

"Most of the med students are on food stamps," the literature reads. "It's just for a short time and it really helps out. So go for it."

Still, the Association of American Medical Colleges says the widespread welfare at Pikeville is rare.

Robert F. Sabalis, the organization's associate vice president for student affairs, said the vast majority of medical students across the country pay their way "through a combination of federal and private educational loans, scholarships and grants, spousal employment, family support, and a frugal lifestyle."

Strosnider said the medical school's mission is to increase the number of primary care physicians in central Appalachia. That means students who are residents of impoverished central Appalachia are recruited heavily. Often, Strosnider said, they're the sons and daughters of coal miners and may be the first person in their families to attend college.

"These kids are not driving Cadillacs," he said.

Citing privacy issues, the medical school declined to identify students who enrolled in government welfare programs. But Strosnider acknowledged that some Pikeville medical students, especially nontraditional students with children, receive benefits such as food stamps or government-subsidized housing.

Pikeville medical student Mike Garrett said many of his classmates are on tight budgets, living on loans to cover living expenses and the $28,000 a year in tuition. He said those who qualify shouldn't be begrudged government benefits.

"The public might think that all medical school students are rich, but that's not necessarily true," said Debby Murphy, adviser to the student auxiliary that distributed the informational packet. "Some are struggling to make ends meet."

The informational packet sent to students contains addresses of local schools, daycare centers and banks. It also gives the address and phone numbers for the local housing authority to apply for housing assistance and the local welfare office to apply for food stamps and Medicaid for children.

The Pikeville medical school was established in 1996 with $10 million from private corporate and government donors. Its goal from the start was to address medically underserved central Appalachia, which despite a push to recruit doctors still has just one primary care physician for every 1,200 people. That falls far short of the standard in urban areas of one for every 900 people.

The ratio is even lower in the region's most economically distressed counties. For example, Owsley County, with 4,800 residents, has only two doctors.

The first group of 40 homegrown physicians produced by the school opened offices throughout the mountain region last year. An additional 50 will finish residency programs next month and begin new practices.

There are currently 270 at the Pikeville school, with 180 more now going through three-year residency programs in osteopathic medicine, which places a special emphasis on the interrelationship of organs and body systems. Osteopaths undergo similar training to medical doctors, and like MDs can prescribe drugs and perform surgeries.

Garrett said medical students spend their weekdays in the classroom and have to spend their evenings and weekends studying. That, he said, leaves no time for jobs to support themselves and their families.

Baron Herford, a Texas native, is the son of a mechanic and was the first in his family to graduate from college. He worked 15 years as a respiratory therapist in Atlanta before enrolling in medical school. He and his wife have two sons, ages 7 and 3.

They receive loans to cover the cost of tuition and rent on their small apartment in the central Appalachian town that's home to the medical school. Those loans, Cindy Herford said, are not enough to cover food for a family of four.

"It has been a financial struggle," she said.

Even so, the decision to apply for the food stamp program was a difficult one. She said one of the staffers in the welfare office eased her trepidation by telling her that everyone needs a helping hand sometime.

"We have gotten over the 'Oh, I'm so embarrassed,'" she said. "We are doing something here to make a better life not just for ourselves and our children but for the community we serve after medical school."

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drusso said:
With the increasingly high cost of medical education and sky-rocketing student debt, coupled with the disproportionate number of osteopathic medical schools that depend on tuition dollars from students to cover basic operating expenses, the entire osteopathic medical community should come together to answer the simple question, "Can we do better?"

How long can the profession sustain a system of medical education that over-produces graduates relative to training slots, limits graduates' opportunities for competing for ACGME-approved training slots by not embracing a combined residency match, and continues to fund the building of "branch campuses" of osteopathic medical schools on the backs of D.O. students by annual incremental tuition hikes? The tuition at Pikeville, as cited in the story, is $28K. Most of these graduates will pursue careers in primary care after 3-4 years of residency and compounding interest in student loans.

Trouble is coming. This is the first sign and a major "black eye." This makes the profession look bad in front of the AAMC and other leading medical education groups. Let's hope that good leadership, solid professional stewardship, and conscientious, vision-driven planning prevails over simple greed and sprawl.

I'm all for growing the profession. But the profession should grow by parterning with established and well-endowed academic institutions who can commit to funding the development of COMs through the expensive "growing pains" stages, by partnering with public universities and establishing medical schools to meet the health care needs of the communities they serve, and by partnering with hospitals and health care networks who understand medical education and are dedicated to developing quality graduate level medical programs and residencies.




At Appalachian med school, would-be doctors apply for welfare

ROGER ALFORD

Associated Press


PIKEVILLE, Ky. - For Cindy Herford, the wife of a medical student, walking into the local welfare office and signing up for food stamps wasn't easy.

"That was an ego blow," says Herford, whose husband is entering his second year at the Pikeville College School of Osteopathic Medicine. "I was embarrassed."

But she took comfort in knowing that others were in the same situation at the unique medical school, which draws many of its students from chronically poor central Appalachia and strives to send its graduates back to the same region.

"We have a high percentage of students who are poor," said the school's dean, Dr. John Strosnider. "We try to offer them every opportunity that is legal and available to help ease the financial strain of medical school."

Because of the private nature of welfare programs, no one at the medical school knows how many students are on welfare. Estimates based on anecdotal evidence range from as little as 10 percent by the administration to more than 50 percent by an auxiliary group. That group also estimates that 80 percent to 90 percent of the nontraditional students at the school are on food stamps, and it even distributed informational packets to reassure incoming students they should not be ashamed.

"Most of the med students are on food stamps," the literature reads. "It's just for a short time and it really helps out. So go for it."

Still, the Association of American Medical Colleges says the widespread welfare at Pikeville is rare.

Robert F. Sabalis, the organization's associate vice president for student affairs, said the vast majority of medical students across the country pay their way "through a combination of federal and private educational loans, scholarships and grants, spousal employment, family support, and a frugal lifestyle."

Strosnider said the medical school's mission is to increase the number of primary care physicians in central Appalachia. That means students who are residents of impoverished central Appalachia are recruited heavily. Often, Strosnider said, they're the sons and daughters of coal miners and may be the first person in their families to attend college.

"These kids are not driving Cadillacs," he said.

Citing privacy issues, the medical school declined to identify students who enrolled in government welfare programs. But Strosnider acknowledged that some Pikeville medical students, especially nontraditional students with children, receive benefits such as food stamps or government-subsidized housing.

Pikeville medical student Mike Garrett said many of his classmates are on tight budgets, living on loans to cover living expenses and the $28,000 a year in tuition. He said those who qualify shouldn't be begrudged government benefits.

"The public might think that all medical school students are rich, but that's not necessarily true," said Debby Murphy, adviser to the student auxiliary that distributed the informational packet. "Some are struggling to make ends meet."

The informational packet sent to students contains addresses of local schools, daycare centers and banks. It also gives the address and phone numbers for the local housing authority to apply for housing assistance and the local welfare office to apply for food stamps and Medicaid for children.

The Pikeville medical school was established in 1996 with $10 million from private corporate and government donors. Its goal from the start was to address medically underserved central Appalachia, which despite a push to recruit doctors still has just one primary care physician for every 1,200 people. That falls far short of the standard in urban areas of one for every 900 people.

The ratio is even lower in the region's most economically distressed counties. For example, Owsley County, with 4,800 residents, has only two doctors.

The first group of 40 homegrown physicians produced by the school opened offices throughout the mountain region last year. An additional 50 will finish residency programs next month and begin new practices.

There are currently 270 at the Pikeville school, with 180 more now going through three-year residency programs in osteopathic medicine, which places a special emphasis on the interrelationship of organs and body systems. Osteopaths undergo similar training to medical doctors, and like MDs can prescribe drugs and perform surgeries.

Garrett said medical students spend their weekdays in the classroom and have to spend their evenings and weekends studying. That, he said, leaves no time for jobs to support themselves and their families.

Baron Herford, a Texas native, is the son of a mechanic and was the first in his family to graduate from college. He worked 15 years as a respiratory therapist in Atlanta before enrolling in medical school. He and his wife have two sons, ages 7 and 3.

They receive loans to cover the cost of tuition and rent on their small apartment in the central Appalachian town that's home to the medical school. Those loans, Cindy Herford said, are not enough to cover food for a family of four.

"It has been a financial struggle," she said.

Even so, the decision to apply for the food stamp program was a difficult one. She said one of the staffers in the welfare office eased her trepidation by telling her that everyone needs a helping hand sometime.

"We have gotten over the 'Oh, I'm so embarrassed,'" she said. "We are doing something here to make a better life not just for ourselves and our children but for the community we serve after medical school."

I feel your pain, but this is not unique to the osteopathic community. My little state allopathic school is around 18,000/year now (I'm taking out around 45,000/year in loans) as are my colleagues.

that's a state school. tuition at the private allopathic schools is easily as much as osteopathic.

I think there should be some sort of combined effort (allopathic and osteopathic) at tuition reform or debt-forgiveness programs that don't require you to go to nowhereville USA.

I don't see this problem getting better anytime soon.

good luck.........i'm starting my 4th year now and will be easily 180,000 in debt. Lot of the private schools are 200 to 300 thousand in debt. oh, well hope to be making 200 to 300 thousand dollars a year soon.

later
 
"Some are struggling to make ends meet."

give me a break. all med students are struggling to make ends meet. is there some shock value to this story? i guess the public thinks med student = dr = rich.
i would guess that virtually all my married with children classmates whose wives are not working are on wellfare. nothing to be ashamed of, just part of the game we all have to put up with. (kc's tuition last yr was $35k)
 
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drusso said:
How long can the profession sustain a system... that over-produces graduates relative to training slots, limits graduates' opportunities for competing for ACGME-approved training slots by not embracing a combined residency match, and continues to fund the building of "branch campuses" of osteopathic medical schools on the backs of D.O. students by annual incremental tuition hikes?

Trouble is coming. This is the first sign and a major "black eye." This makes the profession look bad in front of the AAMC and other leading medical education groups. ...simple greed and sprawl.

I'm all for growing the profession. But... "

Give me a break :thumbdown: This is a story about medical students in Appalachia, many of whom are extremely poor to begin with – it has nothing to do with osteopathic or the state of the profession. Tuition is high at med schools across the country not just DO schools.
 
rustedcj7 said:
Give me a break :thumbdown: This is a story about medical student in Appalachia many of whom are extremely poor to begin with – it has nothing to do with osteopathic or the state of the profession. Tuition is high at med schools across the country not just DO schools.

There is a lot more to this story than was published in the article. Some people in ths area are not too happy about medical students receiving government assistance.

The cost of living in Pikeville is extremely high for a small "Appalachian" town. I agree that tuition is high at almost every medical school. PCSOM's tuition may be a little higher than the average, but we get a lot out of tuition that most schools dont get, like laptop, all books, medical equipment, etc.

Baron is a classmate of mine and he is representative of a good proportion of our class. He is married with two children and has no income. The maximum amount we can take out for loans is $49,250. Once you take out $28,000 for tuition, that doesnt leave you a lot when you have all sorts of bills to pay.

PCSOM has been very good to my class and they do all they can to keep our costs to a minimum. The students are here, for the most part, because they want to make a difference in peoples' lives and some do want to stay in the area and contribute.
 
average 1st year physican after residency in primary care took home 120,000 last year. The financial woes are unfounded. The $ amounts seem high but you have to think long term. Even if you only work for 30 years- and I hope I love my profession enough to work into my 80s, 30 years with no pay raises- yeah right- is 3.6 million!!! do the math even with compounded interest. Money isnt everything but it is a concern seeing that most of us havent even made 50,000 ever and we are signign loan papers for 150-200 thousand. It is scary but be real and do the math. It is exactly like buying a beach home and not being able to go there. Focus on school and spend as little as possible, you have to eat but be frugal and manage your debt wisely.
there's my 3 cents
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the legal governmental assistance programs to help you when you need it. I went from a 6 figure salary one year to being a first year med student on WIC and Food Stamps. Its not a big deal. Trust me, we all pay into this fund, and the whole goal of government in this situation is to help you until you can help yourself. Its a whole lot better than the people who go on welfare and stay on it their entire lives without working. We are the people who truly need this service and who it was originally designed for.
 
corpsmanUP said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the legal governmental assistance programs to help you when you need it. I went from a 6 figure salary one year to being a first year med student on WIC and Food Stamps. Its not a big deal. Trust me, we all pay into this fund, and the whole goal of government in this situation is to help you until you can help yourself. Its a whole lot better than the people who go on welfare and stay on it their entire lives without working. We are the people who truly need this service and who it was originally designed for.

Absolutely True. I am another of those married Pikeville students with children. My wife and I are on every program mentioned in this thread, and not ashamed in the least, quite the contrary I am grateful for their existence. The problem set forth in this thread is that schools are too expensive and students are forced into government programs, but the reality is the government programs are a SOLUTION to the problem of high tuition. Sure I'm still going to be 150 grand in debt when I'm done, but so long as I put my mercedes and beach house off a few years I'll be just fine. I'm sure my future taxes will go to help some of my present neighbors, but a few of us here will be DO's earning a very generous salary and paying more back into the system than we ever took. Hopefully at that time these housing projects will be filled with people who can someday contribute back into the system.
 
If you have good credit (and you don't have to be rich to have good credit) there are about 20 institutions/banks that will gladly lend you $20,000 a year to help with your living expenses above and beyond stafford aid. Med school is very expensive and people should think long and hard if they can afford it. Its not like someone is forcing you to go. My 2 pennies




drusso said:
With the increasingly high cost of medical education and sky-rocketing student debt, coupled with the disproportionate number of osteopathic medical schools that depend on tuition dollars from students to cover basic operating expenses, the entire osteopathic medical community should come together to answer the simple question, "Can we do better?"

How long can the profession sustain a system of medical education that over-produces graduates relative to training slots, limits graduates' opportunities for competing for ACGME-approved training slots by not embracing a combined residency match, and continues to fund the building of "branch campuses" of osteopathic medical schools on the backs of D.O. students by annual incremental tuition hikes? The tuition at Pikeville, as cited in the story, is $28K. Most of these graduates will pursue careers in primary care after 3-4 years of residency and compounding interest in student loans.

Trouble is coming. This is the first sign and a major "black eye." This makes the profession look bad in front of the AAMC and other leading medical education groups. Let's hope that good leadership, solid professional stewardship, and conscientious, vision-driven planning prevails over simple greed and sprawl.

I'm all for growing the profession. But the profession should grow by parterning with established and well-endowed academic institutions who can commit to funding the development of COMs through the expensive "growing pains" stages, by partnering with public universities and establishing medical schools to meet the health care needs of the communities they serve, and by partnering with hospitals and health care networks who understand medical education and are dedicated to developing quality graduate level medical programs and residencies.




At Appalachian med school, would-be doctors apply for welfare

ROGER ALFORD

Associated Press


PIKEVILLE, Ky. - For Cindy Herford, the wife of a medical student, walking into the local welfare office and signing up for food stamps wasn't easy.

"That was an ego blow," says Herford, whose husband is entering his second year at the Pikeville College School of Osteopathic Medicine. "I was embarrassed."

But she took comfort in knowing that others were in the same situation at the unique medical school, which draws many of its students from chronically poor central Appalachia and strives to send its graduates back to the same region.

"We have a high percentage of students who are poor," said the school's dean, Dr. John Strosnider. "We try to offer them every opportunity that is legal and available to help ease the financial strain of medical school."

Because of the private nature of welfare programs, no one at the medical school knows how many students are on welfare. Estimates based on anecdotal evidence range from as little as 10 percent by the administration to more than 50 percent by an auxiliary group. That group also estimates that 80 percent to 90 percent of the nontraditional students at the school are on food stamps, and it even distributed informational packets to reassure incoming students they should not be ashamed.

"Most of the med students are on food stamps," the literature reads. "It's just for a short time and it really helps out. So go for it."

Still, the Association of American Medical Colleges says the widespread welfare at Pikeville is rare.

Robert F. Sabalis, the organization's associate vice president for student affairs, said the vast majority of medical students across the country pay their way "through a combination of federal and private educational loans, scholarships and grants, spousal employment, family support, and a frugal lifestyle."

Strosnider said the medical school's mission is to increase the number of primary care physicians in central Appalachia. That means students who are residents of impoverished central Appalachia are recruited heavily. Often, Strosnider said, they're the sons and daughters of coal miners and may be the first person in their families to attend college.

"These kids are not driving Cadillacs," he said.

Citing privacy issues, the medical school declined to identify students who enrolled in government welfare programs. But Strosnider acknowledged that some Pikeville medical students, especially nontraditional students with children, receive benefits such as food stamps or government-subsidized housing.

Pikeville medical student Mike Garrett said many of his classmates are on tight budgets, living on loans to cover living expenses and the $28,000 a year in tuition. He said those who qualify shouldn't be begrudged government benefits.

"The public might think that all medical school students are rich, but that's not necessarily true," said Debby Murphy, adviser to the student auxiliary that distributed the informational packet. "Some are struggling to make ends meet."

The informational packet sent to students contains addresses of local schools, daycare centers and banks. It also gives the address and phone numbers for the local housing authority to apply for housing assistance and the local welfare office to apply for food stamps and Medicaid for children.

The Pikeville medical school was established in 1996 with $10 million from private corporate and government donors. Its goal from the start was to address medically underserved central Appalachia, which despite a push to recruit doctors still has just one primary care physician for every 1,200 people. That falls far short of the standard in urban areas of one for every 900 people.

The ratio is even lower in the region's most economically distressed counties. For example, Owsley County, with 4,800 residents, has only two doctors.

The first group of 40 homegrown physicians produced by the school opened offices throughout the mountain region last year. An additional 50 will finish residency programs next month and begin new practices.

There are currently 270 at the Pikeville school, with 180 more now going through three-year residency programs in osteopathic medicine, which places a special emphasis on the interrelationship of organs and body systems. Osteopaths undergo similar training to medical doctors, and like MDs can prescribe drugs and perform surgeries.

Garrett said medical students spend their weekdays in the classroom and have to spend their evenings and weekends studying. That, he said, leaves no time for jobs to support themselves and their families.

Baron Herford, a Texas native, is the son of a mechanic and was the first in his family to graduate from college. He worked 15 years as a respiratory therapist in Atlanta before enrolling in medical school. He and his wife have two sons, ages 7 and 3.

They receive loans to cover the cost of tuition and rent on their small apartment in the central Appalachian town that's home to the medical school. Those loans, Cindy Herford said, are not enough to cover food for a family of four.

"It has been a financial struggle," she said.

Even so, the decision to apply for the food stamp program was a difficult one. She said one of the staffers in the welfare office eased her trepidation by telling her that everyone needs a helping hand sometime.

"We have gotten over the 'Oh, I'm so embarrassed,'" she said. "We are doing something here to make a better life not just for ourselves and our children but for the community we serve after medical school."
 
BMW19 said:
If you have good credit (and you don't have to be rich to have good credit) there are about 20 institutions/banks that will gladly lend you $20,000 a year to help with your living expenses above and beyond stafford aid. Med school is very expensive and people should think long and hard if they can afford it. Its not like someone is forcing you to go. My 2 pennies

I understand this is the only option we are faced with at the moment, but accepting another loan is not the answer. I believe other financial options or considerations should be offered medical students. I understand there are loan write off programs post graduations; however, this is not the best option.

There should be considersations made for all medical students with dire financial need. I have a few opinions, but no working solution so I'll abstain from commenting further. I just pray that somthing beyond inccuring further debt would be explored by those in government.
 
Does anyone know where the welfare office is in Pikeville cuz I want to sign up. All of my neighbors are on welfare and they don't do anything. Actually, the one who just got out of prison, he lifts weights all day long and then walks down the street to the market to buy some beer and then drinks all night. Pretty nice set up; my poor wife's tax dollars at work!

As far as I'm concerned government programs should be for those who are trying to better themselves, not those who just want to chill. I mean, all of my neighbors have pretty nice houses and none of them work. I would like to know how they figure out how to apply for this stuff.

So anyway, if any of you Pikeville folks know where this Food Stamp place is, let me know because if it helps with the Walmart bill, I'm 'bout it!
 
BMW19 said:
If you have good credit (and you don't have to be rich to have good credit) there are about 20 institutions/banks that will gladly lend you $20,000 a year to help with your living expenses above and beyond stafford aid. Med school is very expensive and people should think long and hard if they can afford it. Its not like someone is forcing you to go. My 2 pennies

You can only take out as much as the school budget allows. It doesn't matter if the bank will loan me 100K, if the school only says I can have 5K, I can only have 5K.
 
Sorry, but I was beat out by osteo students for competitive residency slots. I think it is unfair that osteopathic students can apply for allopathic residency slots, but the reverse is not allowed.

There are many osteopaths who will make big bucks after residency. There are many allopaths that will be making peanuts after residency. Life is just unfair that way.
 
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MD'05 said:
Sorry, but I was beat out by osteo students for competitive residency slots. I think it is unfair that osteopathic students can apply for allopathic residency slots, but the reverse is not allowed.

There are many osteopaths who will make big bucks after residency. There are many allopaths that will be making peanuts after residency. Life is just unfair that way.

i think it is VERY fair. those residency slots are for graduated doctors (MD/DO) and paid for by the government. i.e. this is not some private, privaledge thing but tax dollars from everyone.

what "competitive" residency were you beat out from by DO's ?
 
I don't know all the details and I am not one to generally cause trouble here, but this story sort of seems lame.

Why can't they take out more loans like everyone else??? Then I guess I will look into food stamps too.

whatever
 
corpsmanUP said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the legal governmental assistance programs to help you when you need it. I went from a 6 figure salary one year to being a first year med student on WIC and Food Stamps. Its not a big deal. Trust me, we all pay into this fund, and the whole goal of government in this situation is to help you until you can help yourself. Its a whole lot better than the people who go on welfare and stay on it their entire lives without working. We are the people who truly need this service and who it was originally designed for.

I couldn't have said it better myself. It's legal, the students qualify, and once they graduate, they will certainly be paying back more than what they recieved as a student. This story is BS, since it seems to be more about the shock of students on welfare than the high cost of medical education.
 
mx_599 said:
I don't know all the details and I am not one to generally cause trouble here, but this story sort of seems lame.

Why can't they take out more loans like everyone else??? Then I guess I will look into food stamps too.

whatever

It was stated earlier. You can only borrow what the school's budget allows. I think it is around 49,000 now. It used to be 42,000 just two years ago. The students I know using gov. assist. are really only the ones with families, and no where near the 50% that was quoted. Its probably unlikely that its even 10%.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
It was stated earlier. You can only borrow what the school's budget allows. I think it is around 49,000 now. It used to be 42,000 just two years ago. The students I know using gov. assist. are really only the ones with families, and no where near the 50% that was quoted. Its probably unlikely that its even 10%.
Well okay...I take back some of what I said. Still, if I am taking out private loans, others can as well.

Great post...I am going to examine my options for food stamps if I need to.
 
I'll be starting at Pikeville this August, and I must admit when I received the packet including information on how to apply to food stamps I was a little surprised. After signing up for 47K in loans for this year alone, I was amazed that people would need to go on govt assistance. But... I'm a single person attending school and with roughly 20K for expenses this year (rent, food, utilites, phone, car, insurance, etc) I think I 'll be able to do it with a budget. But that's just taking 1 person into consideration. A lot of medical students are married or have children and, when you do the math, I don't think many people could support a family on that kind of budget. Like others have said, government assistance is supposed to be a short-term aid to help people in need and, in my opinion, medical students more than qualify.
 
JMCarpenter said:
Like others have said, government assistance is supposed to be a short-term aid to help people in need and, in my opinion, medical students more than qualify.
Well I am sold! Now I feel justified and not ashamed at all.
 
mx_599 said:
Well okay...I take back some of what I said. Still, if I am taking out private loans, others can as well.

Great post...I am going to examine my options for food stamps if I need to.

Med students CANNOT take out personal education loans above and beyond whatever the school sets the max budget at. However, if credit is good enough, they may take out personal loans not classified as specifically for educational purposes. But these loans require monthly payments immediately after loan receipt. That means students would be paying approx $400/month during school with higher interest rates than those for education. Hmmm..... could that be counterproductive?

I happen to be a med student using government aid. I supported my family before I started school myself. But my tuition is ~$38,000/year. My budget is $52,000. A family of 4 would be hard pressed to live on $14,000 annually. If I had my way, I would prefer to take out more loans and stay off welfare. But I don't make the rules. The bottom line is that my family needs food, shelter, and healthcare insurance. I can't afford it on my allotted budget. So I use outside support services.

If you have a problem with that, then I suggest you take it up with the federal govt or the Dept of Education. Lobby for Federal Student Aid reform. But don't tell me that my children don't deserve the same consideration as other people in this country. I may as well use some of what I paid in during the years that I devoted to the US Air Force before school.

End of rant. But please think carefully before you condemn others. Most med students are so because they want to help. Most wouldn't willingly accept govt aid unless as a last resort. Remember that need is different from desire.

Clarification: I did not mean to direct this at any specific person, but rather toward those with the opinion that med school students should not use govt aid.
 
cdreed said:
Med students CANNOT take out personal education loans above and beyond whatever the school sets the max budget at. However, if credit is good enough, they may take out personal loans not classified as specifically for educational purposes. But these loans require monthly payments immediately after loan receipt. That means students would be paying approx $400/month during school with higher interest rates than those for education. Hmmm..... could that be counterproductive?

I happen to be a med student using government aid. I supported my family before I started school myself. But my tuition is ~$38,000/year. My budget is $52,000. A family of 4 would be hard pressed to live on $14,000 annually. If I had my way, I would prefer to take out more loans and stay off welfare. But I don't make the rules. The bottom line is that my family needs food, shelter, and healthcare insurance. I can't afford it on my allotted budget. So I use outside support services.

If you have a problem with that, then I suggest you take it up with the federal govt or the Dept of Education. Lobby for Federal Student Aid reform. But don't tell me that my children don't deserve the same consideration as other people in this country. I may as well use some of what I paid in during the years that I devoted to the US Air Force before school.

End of rant. But please think carefully before you condemn others. Most med students are so because they want to help. Most wouldn't willingly accept govt aid unless as a last resort. Remember that need is different from desire.

Clarification: I did not mean to direct this at any specific person, but rather toward those with the opinion that med school students should not use govt aid.

:sleep:
dude...take a chill pill. I never attack anyone on here and expect the same in return. I never said anything about your kids. Check the loan situation again. I got a student loan through Wells Fargo that didn't need any school's approval or require payback immediately.
+pity+
 
mx_599 said:
:sleep:
dude...take a chill pill. I never attack anyone on here and expect the same in return. I never said anything about your kids. Check the loan situation again. I got a student loan through Wells Fargo that didn't need any school's approval or require payback immediately.
+pity+

I didn't mean this as an attack on you if you read the end of my post. It's just that the govt aid issue is a touchy subject with me since I don't like using it in the first place. I apologize if you thought I was out of line, but once again it wasn't meant to be directed at you specifically.

Cyndi
 
espbeliever said:
i think it is VERY fair. those residency slots are for graduated doctors (MD/DO) and paid for by the government. i.e. this is not some private, privaledge thing but tax dollars from everyone.

what "competitive" residency were you beat out from by DO's ?

Neurosurgery.
 
Guys, I appreciate all of the dialouge, but where do I go to get on the draw? I want to draw a check like the other 80% of eastern ky who do not work.

Maybe I could get one of my preceptors to write a letter and say that I have a hard time completing a H&P and that according to him I have ADHD, then I could draw some Social Security (No kiding, I had a crap load of kids in Peds that were on the draw because they hadd ADD).

Where is this mysterious food stamp office in Pikeville because I'm there!
 
DOSouthpaw said:
Guys, I appreciate all of the dialouge, but where do I go to get on the draw? I want to draw a check like the other 80% of eastern ky who do not work.

Maybe I could get one of my preceptors to write a letter and say that I have a hard time completing a H&P and that according to him I have ADHD, then I could draw some Social Security (No kiding, I had a crap load of kids in Peds that were on the draw because they hadd ADD).

Where is this mysterious food stamp office in Pikeville because I'm there!

You should be able to find the address online. Google the state of Kentucky and look up the Dept of Welfare. I'm in AZ, and I was able to download all the apps from the state's website.

Hope this helps some.
 
MD'05 said:
Neurosurgery.

cool man. some mroe DOs got into an AMA NS position! :smuggrin:

sorry, just wondered. id wager more often than not, DOs are not even looked at. sorry you had a bad experience. why are you changing so drastically to FP or Im instead of doing an internship year or something to get a second look??
 
DOSouthpaw said:
Guys, I appreciate all of the dialouge, but where do I go to get on the draw? I want to draw a check like the other 80% of eastern ky who do not work.

Maybe I could get one of my preceptors to write a letter and say that I have a hard time completing a H&P and that according to him I have ADHD, then I could draw some Social Security (No kiding, I had a crap load of kids in Peds that were on the draw because they hadd ADD).

Where is this mysterious food stamp office in Pikeville because I'm there!

Here's a link for some of Kentucky's govt assistance services. If you look about 1/2 down there are links for food stamps, medicaid, etc.

http://kentucky.gov/Portal/Category/hea_socialprograms
 
espbeliever said:
cool man. some mroe DOs got into an AMA NS position! :smuggrin:

sorry, just wondered. id wager more often than not, DOs are not even looked at. sorry you had a bad experience. why are you changing so drastically to FP or Im instead of doing an internship year or something to get a second look??

Again, it is ridiculous that DO schools are flooding the market with DOs when the number of Allopathic residency programs are not increasing. Why don't DOs do osteopathic residency programs? Hmmm?
 
MD'05 said:
Again, it is ridiculous that DO schools are flooding the market with DOs when the number of Allopathic residency programs are not increasing. Why don't DOs do osteopathic residency programs? Hmmm?

i dunno... i think they do. :confused: i dont get it :p

rather the answer here is that there are either of the following going on here:

1) not enough positions in the AOA list, so they attempt to get into the AMA list

2) the AMA position was #1 on their list of a combination of AMA and AOA positions.
 
MD'05 said:
Again, it is ridiculous that DO schools are flooding the market with DOs when the number of Allopathic residency programs are not increasing. Why don't DOs do osteopathic residency programs? Hmmm?

Bitter much?

Flooding the market?!? We graduate about 2500-3000 per year compared to 17,000 US MD's. What are you talking about? And what does this have to do with the topic?
 
espbeliever said:
i dunno... i think they do. :confused: i dont get it :p

rather the answer here is that there are either of the following going on here:

1) not enough positions in the AOA list, so they attempt to get into the AMA list

2) the AMA position was #1 on their list of a combination of AMA and AOA positions.

Well, if #1 is true, then the number of graduates needs to hold steady.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
Bitter much?

Flooding the market?!? We graduate about 2500-3000 per year compared to 17,000 US MD's. What are you talking about? And what does this have to do with the topic?

Wow! Is that all? Seems more like 20,000 per year.
 
Some DOs enter the AMA match specifically because of location. It's generally true that most docs end up practicing where they do their residency, or at the very least they end up making connections and networking where they do their residency. And DO residencies just do not exist in certain parts of the country. So as a solution, DOs enter the Allo match to position themselves where they want to live. I'm not saying this is the only reason. It's just the one that I hear the most often.
 
MD'05 said:
Wow! Is that all? Seems more like 20,000 per year.

This isn't an MD vs. DO thread. Please stop trying to turn it into one. We have had plenty of those in the past and don't need another one.
 
MD'05 said:
Again, it is ridiculous that DO schools are flooding the market with DOs when the number of Allopathic residency programs are not increasing. Why don't DOs do osteopathic residency programs? Hmmm?

What has this got to do with the AP story and the topic at hand- welfare-? You should start a new thread, something like "Life is competive and I am bitter".

E-
 
Back to the topic!!

What's up with Pikeville getting bad press lately? First the A&E City Confidential show saying "Pikeville was hell" and now this. It's like the national press likes to pick on the poor underserved population of Eastern Kentucky. Kick us when were down, I guess.

Pikeville is NOT the poverty stricken area many in the national press portray it to be. No doubt that Pike County has its fair share of poverty, even more than the national average but Pikeville itself is actually a surprisingly expensive small town to live in with lots of very wealthy people.

At least CBS cancelled their plans for the reality show "The Real Beverly Hillbillies". They held tons of interviews in Eastern kentucky for that show until the idea got canned.

I guess we will just continue to be ignorant hillbillies that stay barefoot and pregnant in the national press.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
Back to the topic!!

What's up with Pikeville getting bad press lately? First the A&E City Confidential show saying "Pikeville was hell" and now this. It's like the national press likes to pick on the poor underserved population of Eastern Kentucky. Kick us when were down, I guess.

Pikeville is NOT the poverty stricken area many in the national press portray it to be. No doubt that Pike County has its fair share of poverty, even more than the national average but Pikeville itself is actually a surprisingly expensive small town to live in with lots of very wealthy people.

At least CBS cancelled their plans for the reality show "The Real Beverly Hillbillies". They held tons of interviews in Eastern kentucky for that show until the idea got canned.

I guesss we will just continue to be ignorant hillbillies that stay barefoot and pregnant in the national press.


I didn't really think the story cast Pikeville in all that bad of a light. After all, there is nothing in the story that is not true, and I think it raises the question of "how much is too much for tuition". But that City Confidential show was crap.

E-
 
This is not bad press. I think this is an example of our welfare system working the way it was intended to. Help those that will put tons of money into the system. Better us than those that are on it for life.
 
eadysx said:
What has this got to do with the AP story and the topic at hand- welfare-? You should start a new thread, something like "Life is competive and I am bitter".

E-

Me, bitter? Never. The bitter ones are the students whining about foodstamps and not being able to afford tuition. Give me a break.
 
DOSouthpaw said:
Guys, I appreciate all of the dialouge, but where do I go to get on the draw? I want to draw a check like the other 80% of eastern ky who do not work.

Maybe I could get one of my preceptors to write a letter and say that I have a hard time completing a H&P and that according to him I have ADHD, then I could draw some Social Security (No kiding, I had a crap load of kids in Peds that were on the draw because they hadd ADD).

Where is this mysterious food stamp office in Pikeville because I'm there!

Hey SouthPaw,

I think that the address is 295 Hambley Boulevard. I think that the office is only a few blocks from the school itself.
 
I've checked it out. You need to prove 20 hrs/wk active employment to qualify for assistance...I guess we need to chat with the folks who accomplished this to find our way through it...
 
MD'05 said:
Me, bitter? Never. The bitter ones are the students whining about foodstamps and not being able to afford tuition. Give me a break.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
or do workstudy.
 
I hate to be the person to bring up this point but here it goes............When does it become the responsibility of the applying student to realize that they may not be able to afford medical school and support a family. I am not saying that there should be an age cut off or anything like that, but when you really think about it......A 30 something individual with a wife/husband and 1 or 2 kids who goes to attend a medical school program without a job lined up for his or her wife doesn't seem to be planning very well in advance. I just find it interesting that so many people are pointing out the hardship of attending medical school no matter the location, but no one seems to be pointing at the individual for putting themselves in a position where they are dependent on government assistance. I'm sorry to say this but some people following a "dream" really should think before they take that next step. We all have dreams and I for one believe people should go for them no matter what, but I also think you need to take responsibility for your own actions and suffer any consequences that come with those actions. That's just my 2 cents :D
 
vtdo07 said:
I hate to be the person to bring up this point but here it goes............When does it become the responsibility of the applying student to realize that they may not be able to afford medical school and support a family. I am not saying that there should be an age cut off or anything like that, but when you really think about it......A 30 something individual with a wife/husband and 1 or 2 kids who goes to attend a medical school program without a job lined up for his or her wife doesn't seem to be planning very well in advance. I just find it interesting that so many people are pointing out the hardship of attending medical school no matter the location, but no one seems to be pointing at the individual for putting themselves in a position where they are dependent on government assistance. I'm sorry to say this but some people following a "dream" really should think before they take that next step. We all have dreams and I for one believe people should go for them no matter what, but I also think you need to take responsibility for your own actions and suffer any consequences that come with those actions. That's just my 2 cents :D

In my opinion, people who take advantage of support systems available to them are doing just that, being responsible and utilizing their resources... realizing that using that support system for the short term will pay off dramatically in the long run for you and your family.
 
vtdo07 said:
I hate to be the person to bring up this point but here it goes............When does it become the responsibility of the applying student to realize that they may not be able to afford medical school and support a family. I am not saying that there should be an age cut off or anything like that, but when you really think about it......A 30 something individual with a wife/husband and 1 or 2 kids who goes to attend a medical school program without a job lined up for his or her wife doesn't seem to be planning very well in advance. I just find it interesting that so many people are pointing out the hardship of attending medical school no matter the location, but no one seems to be pointing at the individual for putting themselves in a position where they are dependent on government assistance. I'm sorry to say this but some people following a "dream" really should think before they take that next step. We all have dreams and I for one believe people should go for them no matter what, but I also think you need to take responsibility for your own actions and suffer any consequences that come with those actions. That's just my 2 cents :D
Exactly!!! Good point!
 
12R34Y said:
I feel your pain, but this is not unique to the osteopathic community. My little state allopathic school is around 18,000/year now (I'm taking out around 45,000/year in loans) as are my colleagues.

that's a state school. tuition at the private allopathic schools is easily as much as osteopathic.

I think there should be some sort of combined effort (allopathic and osteopathic) at tuition reform or debt-forgiveness programs that don't require you to go to nowhereville USA.

I don't see this problem getting better anytime soon.

good luck.........i'm starting my 4th year now and will be easily 180,000 in debt. Lot of the private schools are 200 to 300 thousand in debt. oh, well hope to be making 200 to 300 thousand dollars a year soon.

later

Good luck getting 200 to 300K per year with a DO degree...

The most competitive residencies are going to MDs at top schools. The average salary for doctors is around 100K.

Man, good luck with your dream.
 
shatter said:
Good luck getting 200 to 300K per year with a DO degree...

The most competitive residencies are going to MDs at top schools. The average salary for doctors is around 100K.

Man, good luck with your dream.

Talk to me in 2.5 years when I match Ophthalmology at an ALLOPATHIC residency...:)
 
vtdo07 said:
I hate to be the person to bring up this point but here it goes............When does it become the responsibility of the applying student to realize that they may not be able to afford medical school and support a family. I am not saying that there should be an age cut off or anything like that, but when you really think about it......A 30 something individual with a wife/husband and 1 or 2 kids who goes to attend a medical school program without a job lined up for his or her wife doesn't seem to be planning very well in advance. I just find it interesting that so many people are pointing out the hardship of attending medical school no matter the location, but no one seems to be pointing at the individual for putting themselves in a position where they are dependent on government assistance. I'm sorry to say this but some people following a "dream" really should think before they take that next step. We all have dreams and I for one believe people should go for them no matter what, but I also think you need to take responsibility for your own actions and suffer any consequences that come with those actions. That's just my 2 cents :D

These government programs were created in order for people to pursue the American Dream! Why is it that it is irresponsible for someone to go onto government aid to pursue a degree in medicine? If it is irresponsible for these 30 something’s to use government aid then who should use these programs? Apparently many of us are still stuck in the thought process that government aid is only for those people who we all love to despise trying to earn a living at WalMart. Maybe we need to pay a little more attention to history and realize that without students, be it medical, dental, or any pursuer of higher education, taking advantage of these government programs they become nothing more than a handout that perpetuates the problems of poorer societies.

It’s easily possible for a 30 something with a family to graduate from medical school with $160000 in debt if using government aid. Even with the assumption that this person goes into family medicine and earns a “measly” 100 grand a year. It certainly won’t take long for this person to pay back his debt to the government programs and then some. Bottom line is that from the financial standpoint of the government the system grows more when this 30 something or even 40 something does become a higher wage earner. Do the math.

By the way I’m not a 30 something (still in my 20’s) but I do have a wife and kids, and much like Jesse James I coulda done it without the government assistance (gun) it just makes things easier.
 
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