Pros of military medicine

Homunculus · Jan 30, 2006

go!

--your friendly neighborhood fair and balanced caveman

Mirror Form · Jan 30, 2006

1.) They'll pay for med school!!!!!!
2.) You get to post in this forum!!! yeah!!
3.) Not a whole lot of HIV patients (sorry ID fellows, but this is the way most of us like it).
4.) In fact, you have a pretty good overall patient population compared to civilian academic centers.

colbgw02 · Jan 30, 2006

chicks dig the uniform?

RichL025 · Jan 30, 2006

Higher chance of getting a "trauma patient" that you actually LIKE, instead of mainly drinkers & druggers.

Although, I admit this can be a con when the patient doesn't do well...

Mirror Form · Jan 30, 2006

colbgw02 said:
chicks dig the uniform?

You bet your a$$ that chicks dig the uniform!

deegs · Jan 30, 2006

speaking of the uniform, when the aliens invade earth, you can blend into the environment and take up a defensive position in Rock Creek Park. (NCR medical personel only)

orbitsurgMD · Jan 30, 2006

Homunculus said:
go!

--your friendly neighborhood fair and balanced caveman

No billing staff (that you know about)
No coding (of the ICD and CPT kind, anyway)
No bad debt.
No collections issues.

RichL025 · Jan 31, 2006

orbitsurgMD said:
No coding (of the ICD and CPT kind, anyway)

I beg to differ. Not that I know what the hell I'm doing, but they _definitely_ make us fill out the coding forms....

RichL025 · Jan 31, 2006

Pro: Taking care of those who go into harm's way.

Yeah, yeah, I know, kinda cheesy & sentimental, but it's important to me.

Meeting Medal of Honor winners, and other heros from ww2, Korea, Vietnam, and the current wars, who come in for their health care, and that of their families.

THAT'S a big plus for me....

bogatyr · Jan 31, 2006

The Commissary is the cheapest place to buy Lucky Charms.

Mirror Form · Jan 31, 2006

orbitsurgMD said:
No coding (of the ICD and CPT kind, anyway)

Unfortunately with CHCSII, coding to get enough "RVU's" is now a headache for the military as well as the civilians.

USAFdoc · Jan 31, 2006

PROs of military medicne

1) service to country

the rest of the list has been deleted depending on your duty station.

having said that; number 1 above counts for alot, just realize that you may not want to make it a career in service of your country.

Homunculus · Jan 31, 2006

1) i don't have to worry about my patients having access or being able to afford their medications
2) imaging studies don't need pre-authorization
3) i get paid almost twice what a civilian resident gets paid, and if i get a fellowship, i get paid as staff-- easily twice civilian fellow pay
4) i have a relatively healthy patient population (i did a rotation and Children's National in DC-- holy cow am i thankful for my continuity panel, lol)
5) so far everyone i've run into is here for the right reasons
6) my daily decision on what to wear is easy
7) my families' medical care and medications are free
8) when out of residency, i don't have to worry about running a business
9) no pre-authorization for consults
10) CHCSII codes for me (i've found my codes with CHCSII are much larger than when i was coding them myself. this is probably the only positive about CHCSII though, lol)
11) the vast majority of my patients' parents are very grateful for their care
12) i get more of a "warm fuzzy" treating soldiers' kids than the general civilian population

--your friendly neighborhood glass half full caveman

r90t · Feb 1, 2006

Tax free pay in combat zones. Leave earned it tax free as well, even when taken stateside.

You desire to spend lots of money on a cruiseliner vacation greatly declines after doing a WESTPAC for the navy types.

My wife has no complaints about any medical care that she has received at our MTFs. We are currently doing family health care in the community in LA, what a pain in the tail. No professional courtesy out here from TRICARE physicians.

Motivated corpsman who want to learn.

TAD/TDY to some very interesting courses. The Armed Forces Institute fo Pathology courses are free to active duty, but from what I understand, cost a significant amount to attend as a civilian.

Meeting heroes and having the honor of taking care of these people who are ordinary soldiers/marines/sailors/airmen doing extraordinary jobs that they volunteered for.

colbgw02 · Feb 1, 2006

Homunculus said:
6) my daily decision on what to wear is easy

oh, i'm such a simpleton.

pgg · Feb 2, 2006

Pros:

The best patient population in the world.
Much higher pay as an intern/resident (include MS1-4 years if USUHS).
Opportunities to go to places and do things others can't.

Galo · Feb 2, 2006

Although the majority of my posts are negative, I will try to contribute some:

-almost limitless time to go to the gym...I was at one time doing 4 hrs a day. got 2nd place in the base triathalon for my age group, and eventually required a shoulder decompression and mumford from years of abuse to my shoulders.

-could write for any rx that I wanted for myself without a co-pay, (except narcs which I only got after my 3 surgeries)

-again, lots of time to go home and wakeboard for 4 years, till I broke my foot, and destroyed my knee.

-ability to see things and go places you may not otherwise go to. I did two medical missions, one to Jamaica, and one to Nicaragua. Both great experiences except for Nicaragua where my base screwed up my paperwork, and I was threatened with expulsion from the country by US South Command, and I ended getting blamed for it.......oops this is the positive one sorry

Truly and honestly, without a doubt, I think you meet some true quality people not only in the patients who give so much for this country, but also in your colleagues. This is precisely why I and the others physicians are so against a system that continually lets them down, and endangers their lives.

Galo

r90t · Feb 3, 2006

Every military hospital that I have been to has had a gym very close by.

30 days paid vacation. Don't forget Sat/Sun is included. (I'm listing this as a pro. List leave availability in the cons section if you had bad experiences).

The opportunity to train at non-military facilities.

You normally don't need a translator to communicate with your patient.

Did I mention the best patient population in the United States? I did. But, they are. We did a command blood drive and had a huge showing, even people on restriction (i.e. got caught doing something) and the two (of 50)underweight/anemic gals were in line trying to donate.

deuist · Feb 4, 2006

1. Adventure! You get to see exciting and new destinations.
2. Making people believe that I'm a pilot.
ME: I'm in the Air Force. I don't fly planes.
HER: You're in the Air Force? What's it like to fly a plane?
ME: ummm... it's cool.

JA_Perez · Mar 9, 2006

orbitsurgMD said:
No billing staff (that you know about)
No coding (of the ICD and CPT kind, anyway)
No bad debt.
No collections issues.

NO CODING? YEAH RIGHT!!!!

JA_Perez · Mar 9, 2006

orbitsurgMD said:
No billing staff (that you know about)
No coding (of the ICD and CPT kind, anyway)
No bad debt.
No collections issues.

NO CODING? YEAH RIGHT!!!!

IgD · Mar 18, 2006

Everyone in life has a rank no matter where you work. The only difference is that in the military you wear a rank on your collar. In the civilian world you've got the CEO (flag officer), Department head (O5/O6), middle management (O4/O3) and junior management (O3 and below). Every corporation also has a chain of command and red tape. For example, even if you work at Microsoft you have to fill our purchase requisitions. Even Bill Gates answers to the stock holders and board of directors.

As a civilian perhaps you could ignore this, start a private practice and be reasonably happy. One of the benefits of a career in the military is that you are afforded the opportunity to develop skills to thrive in the corporate environment. The military is the largest corporation in the world.

Regardless of whether you call it "leadership", "maturity" or something else this is part of the skill set you bring to the table when you apply for a civilian residency program or job. High scoring type A applicants are a dime a dozen. Applicants with those leadership skills are not.

IgD · Mar 30, 2006

A big pro in military medicine is the Montgomery GI bill. If you go to an upper tier medical school you could be 200k in debt by the end. Instead of the debt growing while you are in residency, with HPSP you have zero debt. Do an internship your 4 years and get out. Now cash in the GI bill and do a civilian residency. The GI bill will pay you about $1000 month for 2 years while you are a civilian resident.

All you've done is put your residency training on hold for 4 years and made yourself a boatload of money in the interim.

IgD · Mar 30, 2006

One thing I enjoy about military medicine (and the military in general) is that its members value physical fitness. Military members in general are a very health conscious bunch and exercise on a regular basis. It can be annoying sometimes because you have to take an easy biannual physical fitness test. On the other hand, none of my co-workers weigh 300 - 400 lbs like in the civilian world.

RichL025 · Mar 30, 2006

IgD said:
On the other hand, none of my co-workers weigh 300 - 400 lbs like in the civilian world.

None?

Try "few".

Myself, I have personally seen 2 O-6 medical officers that were 300+ lbs. One male, the other female. The female one - when she wore class B's, her belly would poke out between her trousers & shirt.

Plus, one other O-6 I who is batting around 275....

And I'm not even officially in the medical corps yet.

IgD · Mar 31, 2006

RichL025 said:
None?

Try "few".

Myself, I have personally seen 2 O-6 medical officers that were 300+ lbs. One male, the other female. The female one - when she wore class B's, her belly would poke out between her trousers & shirt.

Plus, one other O-6 I who is batting around 275....

And I'm not even officially in the medical corps yet.

Do you generally agree with my statement that active duty military are health conscious?

RichL025 · Mar 31, 2006

IgD said:
Do you generally agree with my statement that active duty military are health conscious?

Yes, on the whole, there are less overweight & obese people on active duty than civilian.

haujun · Apr 8, 2006

Pros in the U.S. military are too numerous and just too many list when one compares U.S. military to other foreign military. Because U.S. military is all voluntary its benefits and pay levels are much higher than other countries to attract recruits. HPSP is very generous and most unique program to attract medical students who are concern about the debt. You won't find similar program elsewhere in the world. Period. WE ARE LUCKY.

The real problem with this "military bashing" is that these posters focus on comparing physician life in civilian sector to the military one.(apple vs orange). You don't see milmd, USAFDOC comparing their lifestyles to the military physician from other country. This comparison is not feasible b/c U.S. military continues to be the best with unparalled benefits and pay.

Do you know that South Korean government (democratic nation) requires every male to serve 24 months of military service with pay of little more than $20 a month? This also applies those medical students after graduating from korean medical school and residency still need to serve with officer pay which is less than $2000 months for two years. And you can bet there is no such thing as "special pay."

usnavdoc · Apr 8, 2006

haujun said:
Pros in the U.S. military are too numerous and just too many list when one compares U.S. military to other foreign military. Because U.S. military is all voluntary its benefits and pay levels are much higher than other countries to attract recruits. HPSP is very generous and most unique program to attract medical students who are concern about the debt. You won't find similar program elsewhere in the world. Period. WE ARE LUCKY.

The real problem with this "military bashing" is that these posters compare civilian life to military life. You don't see milmd compare his lifestyle with the military physician in the North Korea?! Simply put, living in the military is hard and difficult even more for those infantry soldiers. As a medical personnel wherether you are a physician or a medic you are there to provide the support those brave soldiers who place themselves in harms way. I know b/c I served as an enlisted for four years in the medical dept. However, I am confident to say that we have the best military in the world and those who disagreed with me can move to North Korea.

What in the hell are you talking about. No one here is debating whether the US military is better/worse than any other in the world. Everyone here who is "military bashing" has served honorably. Most have deployed numerous times to Iraq/afghanistan/ korea/ and elsewhere.

Pointing out flaws in military healthcare(that our troops rely on) is not unpatriotic. It is what should be done so that people can make intelligent decisions as to whether or not they wish to be a part of the US military. Recruiters will not give you this side of the story. They will outright lie.

Several posters here have sought to reform the military from within. That has all fallen on deaf ears. That is not unpatriotic. That is what is demanded of a good officer. Blindly continuing in a system that is flawed while never seeking to change things is in my opinion unpatriotic.

iatrosB · Apr 8, 2006

haujun said:
Pros in the U.S. military are too numerous and just too many list when one compares U.S. military to other foreign military. Because U.S. military is all voluntary its benefits and pay levels are much higher than other countries to attract recruits. HPSP is very generous and most unique program to attract medical students who are concern about the debt. You won't find similar program elsewhere in the world. Period. WE ARE LUCKY.

The real problem with this "military bashing" is that these posters compare civilian life to military life. You don't see milmd compare his lifestyle with the military physician in the North Korea?! Simply put, living in the military is hard and difficult even more for those infantry soldiers. As a medical personnel wherether you are a physician or a medic you are there to provide the support those brave soldiers who place themselves in harms way. I know b/c I served as an enlisted for four years in the medical dept. However, I am confident to say that we have the best military in the world and those who disagreed with me can move to North Korea.

deuist · Apr 8, 2006

haujun said:
You don't see milmd compare his lifestyle with the military physician in the North Korea?!

Huh? No one is going to compare the U.S. to N. Korea. At least pick a democratic country if you want to compare militaries.

haujun · Apr 8, 2006

usnavdoc said:
What in the hell are you talking about. No one here is debating whether the US military is better/worse than any other in the world. Everyone here who is "military bashing" has served honorably. Most have deployed numerous times to Iraq/afghanistan/ korea/ and elsewhere.

Pointing out flaws in military healthcare(that our troops rely on) is not unpatriotic. It is what should be done so that people can make intelligent decisions as to whether or not they wish to be a part of the US military. Recruiters will not give you this side of the story. They will outright lie.

Several posters here have sought to reform the military from within. That has all fallen on deaf ears. That is not unpatriotic. That is what is demanded of a good officer. Blindly continuing in a system that is flawed while never seeking to change things is in my opinion unpatriotic.

You stated in your earlier posts about cons of military medicine that the loss of freedom hinders military physicians to threat to leave the broken system for the purpose of fixing the problem... I disagree b/c everyone in the military has to lose some basic rights to fuction as a soldier and your implication that military physicians have to be granted some special power to fix the problem indicates the lack of depth and maturity in your solution.
You also state that you have fought so hard on behalf of system and your chain of command ignored you concern. I think this indicates your lack of leadership. You lacked ability to influence others to accomplish an objective and directs the the medical organization in a way that makes it more efficient. It is so much easier to get out and blame the whole system as you and other posters yearn to do. Here are some questions..

1. You are so expert and at times creative at as pointing out the problems. If the system is so broken what are your solutions?

Finally, you indicated that you care about other soldiers who have become the victim of this broken system. If this is true you should encourage able medical students joining the military in order to fix the broken system. Certainly not discourage the prospective students because your own experience was so bitter in the Air Force.
Never doubt that a small group of physicians can help make the system work.

colbgw02 · Apr 8, 2006

if this is the thread for pros of military medicine, then we're really screwed.

IgD · Apr 9, 2006

haujun said:
...You also state that you have fought so hard on behalf of system and your chain of command ignored you concern. I think this indicates your lack of leadership. You lacked ability to influence others to accomplish an objective and directs the the medical organization in a way that makes it more efficient. It is so much easier to get out and blame the whole system as you and other posters yearn to do...

I think this is a great observation. My experience has been many of the posters here couldn't get it done in military medicine. They blame the system and come here to post. If all you do is irritate people around you instead of facilitate change its a failure of your leadership ability.

usnavdoc · Apr 9, 2006

haujun said:
You stated in your earlier posts about cons of military medicine that the loss of freedom hinders military physicians to threat to leave the broken system for the purpose of fixing the problem... I disagree b/c everyone in the military has to lose some basic rights to fuction as a soldier and your implication that military physicians have to be granted some special power to fix the problem indicates the lack of depth and maturity in your solution.
You also state that you have fought so hard on behalf of system and your chain of command ignored you concern. I think this indicates your lack of leadership. You lacked ability to influence others to accomplish an objective and directs the the medical organization in a way that makes it more efficient. It is so much easier to get out and blame the whole system as you and other posters yearn to do. Here are some questions..

1. You are so expert and at times creative at as pointing out the problems. If the system is so broken what are your solutions?

Finally, you indicated that you care about other soldiers who have become the victim of this broken system. If this is true you should encourage able medical students joining the military in order to fix the broken system. Certainly not discourage the prospective students because your own experience was so bitter in the Air Force.
Never doubt that a small group of physicians can help make the system work.

Well first off (after I stopped laughing) I have never responded to the thread Cons of Military Medicine. So get your **** straight. Ive never said that a military physician deserves "to be granted some special power ." where are you getting this from?

"Lack of depth and maturity in my solution" ???? Solution to what problem? Why dont you respond directly to someones post so that you dont forget what that person said?

"You lacked ability to influence others to accomplish an objective and directs the the medical organization in a way that makes it more efficient. " My CO was relieved of command by his superiors for several violations of the UCMJ. He was then forced to retire early. Do you think you could have influenced him? He choked his adjudant and threatend to A..F... the chaplain. Go be buddies with him if you want.

I have stated what I thought might be solutions in many of my previous posts. Read them if you desire. I am not regurgitating for you simply because you cannot retain what you have read.

A small group of physicians can and do hold the sytem together. Thats not how it should be. For lack of character of the physician the system would fail.

So bitter in the AirForce? Dude I am in the NAVY. Hence the Name USNAVDOC. This is the most inteligent response I have ever seen. No wonder IGD thinks so highly of your post. (That is sarcasm, Just incase it flew over your head as everything else has)

usnavdoc · Apr 9, 2006

IgD said:
I think this is a great observation. My experience has been many of the posters here couldn't get it done in military medicine. They blame the system and come here to post. If all you do is irritate people around you instead of facilitate change its a failure of your leadership ability.

Couldnt get it done in the military? lol

General Surgery internship at Portsmouth NMC, 4 years serving with the USMC as a GMO. 26 months deployed counting a few workups. 4 expeditionary medals including one with the FMF device for combat, Humanitarian Service Medal, Fleet Marine Force ribbon, Combat Action Ribbon, Navy Achievement Medal, 3 Navy Commendation Medals, not to mention several unit awards, on several occasions appointed to positions that would be held by a more seasoned medical officer leading finally to be appointed to run a unit in a position that is normally held by an experienced BCP family physician LCDR.

I think and know that I "got it done in the military" What have you done? Are you even a physician? I dont think so. You want to challenge my leadership ability and patriotism go ahead. I hope you do. Especially in this post. Show all who join what they are in for.

Homunculus · Apr 9, 2006

enough.

once again y'all have derailed a thread. please refrain from bickering on this thread-- there are plenty down in the forum you can weigh in on. in the meantime i'm going to decide how far back to prune this thing.

--your friendly neighborhood disappointed caveman

Galo · Apr 9, 2006

Homunculus said:
enough.

once again y'all have derailed a thread. please refrain from bickering on this thread-- there are plenty down in the forum you can weigh in on. in the meantime i'm going to decide how far back to prune this thing.

--your friendly neighborhood disappointed caveman

WHOA!! I have just gotten one of those huge belly laughs!!!!!!!!

Not at you Homunculus, but at the ridiculous posts by hajun and Idg. Its pointless to try and argue with such inferior thinking and inexperienced behavior. What's funny is that its in the pro section. If this is what happens, the military is surely in trouble. I think you should have a private talk with idg and set him straight, or ban his dysfunctional, yet to reveal himself, military loving, part of the problem, insecure self.

I can see on this thread how your job as administrator has taken on some difficult tasking. Good luck on what you decide, and sorry you have to put up with this type of crap in a forum that's supposed to be informative for people trying to make life changing decisions.

usnavdoc · Apr 9, 2006

Homunculus said:
enough.

once again y'all have derailed a thread. please refrain from bickering on this thread-- there are plenty down in the forum you can weigh in on. in the meantime i'm going to decide how far back to prune this thing.

--your friendly neighborhood disappointed caveman

Prune it. I think it probably needs it. But you should at least cut and paste the responses in the Cons section. I think people deserve to see how IGD and Haujun questioned my leadership ability and patriotism as well as see my responses. If you read their posts they arent even paying attention to what I have written yet they openly attacked.

haujun · Apr 9, 2006

usnavdoc said:
Well first off (after I stopped laughing) I have never responded to the thread Cons of Military Medicine. So get your **** straight. Ive never said that a military physician deserves "to be granted some special power ." where are you getting this from?

"Lack of depth and maturity in my solution" ???? Solution to what problem? Why dont you respond directly to someones post so that you dont forget what that person said?

"You lacked ability to influence others to accomplish an objective and directs the the medical organization in a way that makes it more efficient. " My CO was relieved of command by his superiors for several violations of the UCMJ. He was then forced to retire early. Do you think you could have influenced him? He choked his adjudant and threatend to A..F... the chaplain. Go be buddies with him if you want.

I have stated what I thought might be solutions in many of my previous posts. Read them if you desire. I am not regurgitating for you simply because you cannot retain what you have read.

A small group of physicians can and do hold the sytem together. Thats not how it should be. For lack of character of the physician the system would fail.

So bitter in the AirForce? Dude I am in the NAVY. Hence the Name USNAVDOC. This is the most inteligent response I have ever seen. No wonder IGD thinks so highly of your post. (That is sarcasm, Just incase it flew over your head as everything else has)

I was responding to USAFDOC posts. So relax and chill...I didn't know I was writing to **** perfect individual.

you are still great person whoever you are... It's my fault not knowing these original usernames, hey, maybe I'll take this username from now on:usarmydoc if not already taken.

cmeshy · Apr 9, 2006

Granted I am not a physician or even a midlevel, but under the blanket of much training and military law, I was able to practice some pretty advanced paramedic medicine during my enlistment. I have great military physicians to thank for that confidence and training.
Here are a few of the perks I'm taking with this scholarship.
1. Money. Yes its shallow but very relevant especially in todays medicine. I think saving 483,000 dollars of total payments for the life of my loan for just a sacrifice of 4 years (although I don't view it as a sacrifice) of service is awesome. My 4 year student budget (living like a chump no less) over a twenty year consolidated payment program at the current federal interest rate would put me actually over the amount listed above. Its a rough estimate. Living a little higher on the horse during med school is also a plus. Being a nontrad student, I have gotten used to life with some money, and going back to being completely broke is really uninviting.
2. It's my understanding that the military residencies aren't quite as abusive. I could be wrong and that may not be what you are looking for, but I think even just a little more free time is nice. Not to mention being paid nearly double with more time off. Also that whole officer respect thing can also be a perk. I've read numerous times too that the EM programs (what I'm interested in) actually are ranked VERY high (top 5 programs) amoung the entire nation in board exam scores and pass rates. Not to shabby either.
3. For the most part, working with motivated and similar character of people. Only certain people consider these loans and even fewer join. I would account that that makes these people a cut above the rest. I disagree with much of the posts saying that the military gets only people looking for mediocrity. Having left the military for life as a civy for the past three years, I can honestly say that the recruiters are NOT lying about the remarkable friendships that will be made. Such sacrifice for the life as a soldier instills similar values and bonding while bitching about what you could otherwise be doing creates good times. They really would take a bullet for you. And in my case, I've seen that kind of sacrifice first hand in combat. It really is something special!!!! (google Robert's Ridge, Afghanistan and you'll know what I'm talking about).
4. I'd like to list just a couple of moments in time that I will forever take with me and consider character building.
-sipping freshly ground coffee brewed on an MSR stove mailed from home on the top of a bunker with three feet of snow on the ground with some of the greatest of friends while watching the sun set behind the 18 thousand foot mountain basin that is Bahgram Air Base. Words can't describe the beauty of the Hindu Cush mtns.
-the feeling of weightlessness in the back of an mh-60 while the pilots are goofing around pulling negative g dives. Oh yeah, the roar and flames coming out of a mini-gun are enough to make you howl like Tim the Toolman Taylor.
-the smell of diesel and human waste burning outside your door. (woops that was not a positive one, but can't say that I'll ever forget pulling poop duty. quite an interesting experience. I'd always have to have a sip of contraband vodka from Uzbek that I'd picked up the week earlier after that duty)
-the look in soliders eyes when you've flow into a hot LZ in the middle of the night in the middle of a landmine field in the middle of a firefight to pick him up to bring him to safety. Again words can't describe saving those guys lives. I know the Baghram FST staff know what I'm talking about too.
-the sweet smell of a significant others letters after being gone for 6 months. It's hard times but distance does make the heart grow fonder.
-Growing a 5 month beard and walking the streets of downtown Kabul only 6 months post 9-11. Eating some of the freshest rack of lamb I'd ever had and not getting some GI bug too was a plus.
-Jumping out of perfectly good airplanes and getting paid extra to do it. Need I say more?
-Last but not least, the respect and thankfullness appreciative citizens give you for your sacrifice. A heartfelt had shake from a WWII vet is enough to bring tears to your eyes. They truly were the greatest generation.

USAFdoc · Apr 9, 2006

cmeshy said:
Granted I am not a physician or even a midlevel, but under the blanket of much training and military law, I was able to practice some pretty advanced paramedic medicine during my enlistment. I have great military physicians to thank for that confidence and training.
Here are a few of the perks I'm taking with this scholarship.
1. Money. Yes its shallow but very relevant especially in todays medicine. I think saving 483,000 dollars of total payments for the life of my loan for just a sacrifice of 4 years (although I don't view it as a sacrifice) of service is awesome. My 4 year student budget (living like a chump no less) over a twenty year consolidated payment program at the current federal interest rate would put me actually over the amount listed above. Its a rough estimate. Living a little higher on the horse during med school is also a plus. Being a nontrad student, I have gotten used to life with some money, and going back to being completely broke is really uninviting.
2. It's my understanding that the military residencies aren't quite as abusive. I could be wrong and that may not be what you are looking for, but I think even just a little more free time is nice. Not to mention being paid nearly double with more time off. Also that whole officer respect thing can also be a perk. I've read numerous times too that the EM programs (what I'm interested in) actually are ranked VERY high (top 5 programs) amoung the entire nation in board exam scores and pass rates. Not to shabby either.
3. For the most part, working with motivated and similar character of people. Only certain people consider these loans and even fewer join. I would account that that makes these people a cut above the rest. I disagree with much of the posts saying that the military gets only people looking for mediocrity. Having left the military for life as a civy for the past three years, I can honestly say that the recruiters are NOT lying about the remarkable friendships that will be made. Such sacrifice for the life as a soldier instills similar values and bonding while bitching about what you could otherwise be doing creates good times. They really would take a bullet for you. And in my case, I've seen that kind of sacrifice first hand in combat. It really is something special!!!! (google Robert's Ridge, Afghanistan and you'll know what I'm talking about).
4. I'd like to list just a couple of moments in time that I will forever take with me and consider character building.
-sipping freshly ground coffee brewed on an MSR stove mailed from home on the top of a bunker with three feet of snow on the ground with some of the greatest of friends while watching the sun set behind the 18 thousand foot mountain basin that is Bahgram Air Base. Words can't describe the beauty of the Hindu Cush mtns.
-the feeling of weightlessness in the back of an mh-60 while the pilots are goofing around pulling negative g dives. Oh yeah, the roar and flames coming out of a mini-gun are enough to make you howl like Tim the Toolman Taylor.
-the smell of diesel and human waste burning outside your door. (woops that was not a positive one, but can't say that I'll ever forget pulling poop duty. quite an interesting experience. I'd always have to have a sip of contraband vodka from Uzbek that I'd picked up the week earlier after that duty)
-the look in soliders eyes when you've flow into a hot LZ in the middle of the night in the middle of a landmine field in the middle of a firefight to pick him up to bring him to safety. Again words can't describe saving those guys lives. I know the Baghram FST staff know what I'm talking about too.
-the sweet smell of a significant others letters after being gone for 6 months. It's hard times but distance does make the heart grow fonder.
-Growing a 5 month beard and walking the streets of downtown Kabul only 6 months post 9-11. Eating some of the freshest rack of lamb I'd ever had and not getting some GI bug too was a plus.
-Jumping out of perfectly good airplanes and getting paid extra to do it. Need I say more?
-Last but not least, the respect and thankfullness appreciative citizens give you for your sacrifice. A heartfelt had shake from a WWII vet is enough to bring tears to your eyes. They truly were the greatest generation.

all great reasons, all great experiences. Had even some of those (even one) been apart of what I saw during my USAF career, maybe I'd still be in.
Having said that, I am still waiting for even one USAF FP doc seeing patients to have good news about medicine (although I can say that 100% of the USAF FP docs preferred being deployed to being in the CONUS clinic.

dry dre · Apr 9, 2006

cmeshy said:
1. Money. Yes its shallow but very relevant especially in todays medicine. I think saving 483,000 dollars of total payments for the life of my loan...

Off topic but relevant:
I don't mean to be rude, but don't let the glare of the numbers fool you. Pick up an econ book and learn about opportunity costs, inflation, and finance. I'm on a 30-year repayment, $900 a month. My last payment will "feel" like $475 in today-dollars. At my interest rate, the loan is essentially interest free when taking inflation into account. If I stay civilian I can sign a contract now that will pay twice my student loan in first year salary. If I signed HPSP, I might not have ever been able to get into my specialty (ortho). Thus, regarding finances, HPSP doesn't per se help you (much or at all) and it may hurt you. Besides, my HPSP classmates still took some loans ($1k/month isn't much to live on).

On topic:
I'm an enlisted veteran on the fence re: FAP. The military offers life experience that you simply can't get elsewhere. Navy recruiting had a line that goes something like "if someone was to write a book about your life, would anyone want to read it?" Veterans here will relate that non-military types are often fascinated by military experience/stories. I don't mean to imply that one should go in for recognition etc, but rather that in the service you get to experience many aspects of life that you didn't know even existed. This is the biggest draw (again) for me regarding signing again.

cmeshy · Apr 10, 2006

dry dre said:
Off topic but relevant:
I don't mean to be rude, but don't let the glare of the numbers fool you. Pick up an econ book and learn about opportunity costs, inflation, and finance. I'm on a 30-year repayment, $900 a month. My last payment will "feel" like $475 in today-dollars. At my interest rate, the loan is essentially interest free when taking inflation into account. If I stay civilian I can sign a contract now that will pay twice my student loan in first year salary. If I signed HPSP, I might not have ever been able to get into my specialty (ortho). Thus, regarding finances, HPSP doesn't per se help you (much or at all) and it may hurt you. Besides, my HPSP classmates still took some loans ($1k/month isn't much to live on).

On topic:
I'm an enlisted veteran on the fence re: FAP. The military offers life experience that you simply can't get elsewhere. Navy recruiting had a line that goes something like "if someone was to write a book about your life, would anyone want to read it?" Veterans here will relate that non-military types are often fascinated by military experience/stories. I don't mean to imply that one should go in for recognition etc, but rather that in the service you get to experience many aspects of life that you didn't know even existed. This is the biggest draw (again) for me regarding signing again.

I'm not sure how you've figured those monetary numbers that way, and I'm not sure what your debt load is. Not the money wiz here. My student budget that is posted as of right now, which does not account for the 3-5% tuition increase the next four years plus the interest that I would be clocking during that time places my debt at a scary 223170 smackers. I understand its not the end of the world, but it sounds like a lot to me. Current stafford loan percentage rate at 6.8% on a 30 year repayment makes the monthly payments ~1454 and change. The life of the loan amounts to 300k in interest with ~524K in total paid out. Again this would be low since that low interest rate is not guaranteed nor would the feds even give me that much money to borrow...i would have seek personal loans probably with a point or two higher interest rates. Also that budget is fairly skim on "have fun money." I understand that I will still need to borrow some, but nothing worth worrying about with the HPSP stipend. So again something in the neighborhood of half a mil sounds like a lot of money.

The feds recommend that a person pay no more than 15% of income towards school loans. This 30 year repayment rate is adequate for nearly all physician salaries but once you make the time to repay less, it becomes financially taxing for the lower end paying physicians, which at this point are the most appealing to me. I definately would agree with you that if one had aspirations to be a surgeon or rads or derm, this scholarship would not be beneficial and like you said, actually earn you less in the long run... However at this point and with my goals, I like the idea of not having a huge financial burden lingering over me for the next 20 to 30 years in case something happens (which is what insurance is for) or I decide that practicing full time is not in my interest. On the issue of inflation, physician salaries are not keeping up with the past 2 decades of rate increase from a study I've read. Don't quote me on that one, but I think both in the mil and civy world, physican salaries are stagnant and don't look to be growing anytime soon.

When the AMA writes articles nearly every month on the increasing burden of school loans, I think there is true cause for concern.

But when it all boils down to the nitty gritty, I'm not resigning for the money. That is just a perk. I'm joining for what you said, a lifesylte of unconventionality and unique working environments. After being out now for three years I truly miss the travel, the outdoor working environements, the blood and sweat, the extraordinary friendships, and the uncertainty of things. This definately is not the life for everybody but another commerical that says my point (at least for me) is the where the guy is looking at minivans and picturing in his mind all the action and unique lifestyle the military (navy in this case) offers. A wife and kids and picket fences is just not that appealing to me. Ask me again in another 10 years and it could be different, but contracts and uncertainty is a reality in life, both civy and military.

mac61 · Apr 19, 2006

So, I'm not a doc, so my pros of military medicine are more pros of the military in general. (BTW so I don't get accused of hiding my identity as other have rightly been: 10 years enlisted as an EOD tech, 4 years as a medical service corps officer, now at USUHS with a contract that guarantees retirement at 30 years after my eternal committment, which I'm happy with)

My pros:

Soldiers (aka sailors, marines, etc.). Soldiers continue to be my motivation for staying Army. Soldiers do amazing things on both ends of the intelligence scale. I've seen soldiers get thier hand crushed by a 2000lb bomb and go on to win the EOD team of the year contest. I've seen soldiers push themselves to heat stroke becuase motivation outweighed sense of self. I've seen soldiers get hit in the face by a piece of frag from an 8" projectile and want nothing more than to continue with the mission. I've seen soldiers get drunk and put thier head through a wall. The good, the bad, and the ugly, the soldiers are what it's all about. This is the population that I want to practice medine for and with.

Experience. I've taken showers in freezing water from melted snow (my first in 29 days, and I was elated for my 30 seconds of painful bliss). I've worked in the White House and been on numerous missions to protect the President, VP, First lady, etc. including shows at the Kennedy Center, resorts in Argentina, and some crap-holes that no one should have to crawl into. I've lived on all but 2 continents in my life, 4 before I was 25. I've blown so much stuff up, that it started to get boring.

Comraderie (no one said I was literate): I have never made closer friends than the people I have lived and deployed with. Once you've burned **** with someone, dragged someone into the back of a HMMWV after half of thier face is gone, poured a 5 gallon water jug over your boss because it's the closest thing to a shower you have, every other relationship can become trivialized.

The beauracracy: Believe it or not, I kind of like it. It makes me mad as hell, but knowing that I am probably smart/stubborn/dedicated enough to make the system work for my soldiers, it makes all the stupid things a little easier to laugh at once you realize it's part of the game called the military. I have a million stories about how my pay was (is) screwed, how my household goods got jacked up, etc. that the times that I've helped my soldiers out of similar situations almost makes my pain worth it.

I think I've said my piece, but I could go on for days...in both pros and cons. I just can't help loving what I do, despite how screwed up it can be.

Croooz · May 1, 2006

mac61 said:
So, I'm not a doc, so my pros of military medicine are more pros of the military in general. (BTW so I don't get accused of hiding my identity as other have rightly been: 10 years enlisted as an EOD tech, 4 years as a medical service corps officer, now at USUHS with a contract that guarantees retirement at 30 years after my eternal committment, which I'm happy with)

My pros:

Soldiers (aka sailors, marines, etc.). Soldiers continue to be my motivation for staying Army. Soldiers do amazing things on both ends of the intelligence scale. I've seen soldiers get thier hand crushed by a 2000lb bomb and go on to win the EOD team of the year contest. I've seen soldiers push themselves to heat stroke becuase motivation outweighed sense of self. I've seen soldiers get hit in the face by a piece of frag from an 8" projectile and want nothing more than to continue with the mission. I've seen soldiers get drunk and put thier head through a wall. The good, the bad, and the ugly, the soldiers are what it's all about. This is the population that I want to practice medine for and with.

Experience. I've taken showers in freezing water from melted snow (my first in 29 days, and I was elated for my 30 seconds of painful bliss). I've worked in the White House and been on numerous missions to protect the President, VP, First lady, etc. including shows at the Kennedy Center, resorts in Argentina, and some crap-holes that no one should have to crawl into. I've lived on all but 2 continents in my life, 4 before I was 25. I've blown so much stuff up, that it started to get boring.

Comraderie (no one said I was literate): I have never made closer friends than the people I have lived and deployed with. Once you've burned **** with someone, dragged someone into the back of a HMMWV after half of thier face is gone, poured a 5 gallon water jug over your boss because it's the closest thing to a shower you have, every other relationship can become trivialized.

The beauracracy: Believe it or not, I kind of like it. It makes me mad as hell, but knowing that I am probably smart/stubborn/dedicated enough to make the system work for my soldiers, it makes all the stupid things a little easier to laugh at once you realize it's part of the game called the military. I have a million stories about how my pay was (is) screwed, how my household goods got jacked up, etc. that the times that I've helped my soldiers out of similar situations almost makes my pain worth it.

I think I've said my piece, but I could go on for days...in both pros and cons. I just can't help loving what I do, despite how screwed up it can be.

MeBen · May 5, 2006

I served some time in a hospital in Iraq (as a patient). It is 100% different than a stateside emergency room. Every specialty of doctor is there, all the time. MRIs, CT, ECHO, hell everything. Everything is quick paced. The speed is amazing. 20 Guys will come wounded from an IED. While the hospital is under a rocket attack the nurses & docs are triaging you. Your burned, a Derm checking you out while an Ortho is checking your broken leg and a Nuero is asking you to follow his finger. Then bring the X-ray to you. They rush you of to get an MRI. It not like a civvie hospital where you have half of the people in the ER that are uninsured and using the ER as a clinic, coming in with a cold or a splinter in their finger.

You get all the heart attacks, gallbladders, traffic accidents, strokes and all the other stuff that happens in the 'real' world. You also in the down time work with the thousands of Iraqis that need attention.

If you are going to do this go Active Duty first. If you go in the reserves you are going to be activated anyway. And if you are going to join volunteer for IRAQ. That is were you are needed. Ok, maybe Afghanistan, Germany or Walter Reed. But you dont want to go to Fort Nowhere. I would imagine anyone wanting to be a doctor would want to be the best. Chicago and LA will keep you busy, but you will learn far more in Iraq. And you are needed there.

Physicians, nurses, PA, Pharmacists, PT, Techs, & basically everything medical.

Galo · May 6, 2006

MeBen said:
I served some time in a hospital in Iraq (as a patient). It is 100% different than a stateside emergency room. Every specialty of doctor is there, all the time. MRIs, CT, ECHO, hell everything. Everything is quick paced. The speed is amazing. 20 Guys will come wounded from an IED. While the hospital is under a rocket attack the nurses & docs are triaging you. Your burned, a Derm checking you out while an Ortho is checking your broken leg and a Nuero is asking you to follow his finger. Then bring the X-ray to you. They rush you of to get an MRI. It not like a civvie hospital where you have half of the people in the ER that are uninsured and using the ER as a clinic, coming in with a cold or a splinter in their finger.

You get all the heart attacks, gallbladders, traffic accidents, strokes and all the other stuff that happens in the 'real' world. You also in the down time work with the thousands of Iraqis that need attention.

If you are going to do this go Active Duty first. If you go in the reserves you are going to be activated anyway. And if you are going to join volunteer for IRAQ. That is were you are needed. Ok, maybe Afghanistan, Germany or Walter Reed. But you dont want to go to Fort Nowhere. I would imagine anyone wanting to be a doctor would want to be the best. Chicago and LA will keep you busy, but you will learn far more in Iraq. And you are needed there.

Physicians, nurses, PA, Pharmacists, PT, Techs, & basically everything medical.

This surely is a good experience you have. However, if you were wounded in the US, and went to a level I trauma center, you would get the same or better. Just because you had a good experience as an injured soldier, does not equate with military medicine being awesome. Look and read about the type of care some of these wounded soldiers get when they get home. Look and read about the type of care active duty and dependents get when they are here. I have posted my experience with deployed surgeons who having been deployed for 8 months my get to do 10 cases!! Atrophy for surgical skills.

I know this is a pro post, and surely those experiences are all good. Unfortunately they are not the norm for military medicine today.

MeBen · May 6, 2006

I would say that you should not equate the bad experiences you have heard about to say that all of military medicine is not awesome. I am not talking medical service back in the world for dependents. I am talking about frontline medical care. I have been inside the halls of Walter Reed and I think they get a bad rap in the news. How many other hospitals are dealing with the level of wounded like Walter Reed. Show me how great the services in a civilian ER & rehabilitation unit compare.

As far what you are saying about Surgeons, where they deployed, Antarctica? There is no way a surgeon deployed in Iraq or the Stan is only doing 10 surgeries in 8 months.

militarymd · May 6, 2006

MeBen,

I've said this before, and I will say it again....unless you are a physician, how would you know what is good medical care, and what isn't.

It has been demonstrated again and again, that consumers of healthcare are notoriously poor judges of quality.

You got bamboozled by a bunch of people with a bunch of equipment.....that DOES NOT mean it is good healthcare....all it means is that an uneducated soldier saw a bunch of equipment he is not familiar with...being worked on by a bunch of enthusiast personnel......is that quality???? I can't say, I wasn't there to evaluate it....

However, having been involved with military medicine for 11 years , and seeing it in action many times over....I can say....I doubt it.

Pros of military medicine

SDN Caveman Administrator

Thyroid Storm

Delightfully Tacky

Senior Member

Thyroid Storm

Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Thyroid Storm

exUSAFdoc

SDN Caveman Administrator

Senior Member

Delightfully Tacky

Laugh at me, will they?

Senior Member

Senior Member

Stealthfully Sarcastic

Member

Member

The Lorax

The Lorax

The Lorax

Senior Member

The Lorax

Senior Member

Full Member

Senior Member

trying not to kill anyone

Stealthfully Sarcastic

Full Member

Delightfully Tacky

The Lorax

Senior Member

Senior Member

SDN Caveman Administrator

Senior Member

Senior Member

Full Member

Member

exUSAFdoc

All hat, no cattle

Member

Junior Member

Senior Member

Member

Senior Member

Member

SDN Angel

Similar threads