Grad school and then Med school?

I have a few friends who are trying this approach. Ultimately, it depends on your preference, I think. One advantage to the MSTP is that the PhD typically takes three years or so, whereas a standalone PhD program typically takes around five. Obviously, there is no set time for a PhD, and it depends on what you put into it, but if you'd like the cool factor of being called "Dr. Bdibble" as an M-1 med student, then go for the PhD first, by all means.

one of the other huge benefits is the free tuition. of course, getting into an MSTP program isn't cake either. if your goal is do both, the MSTP is definitely the better route.

I'd do MSTP if i could, but they ain't going to take me (let alone a standard MD program) with my stats..haha. So I'm doing a PhD right now. Based on my current assessment, I should finish in a total of 3 years, but definately within 4 years.

How long it takes to do a PhD, regardless of MSTP or standard PhD depends on your program, and research. For the most part, MSTP's tend to finish their PhD in 4 years, thats why programs usually say its a 8 year program, however other programs may give a range of 7-8 years. Seven years is possible because some students are able to waive some or most of their PhD curriculum with their med school courses. Others are able to accelerate the MSTP by doing research while being an MS1/MS2.

Your project will also be a big factor too. The time it takes to do a thesis does not neccessarily correlate with how "good" a thesis is. I forget if an MSTP is bound to finishing their PhD within 4 years so someone please clarify that. But for PhD's, I think the really encourage you to finish within 4-5 years. But people have gone over that range.

So in my opinion, if someone wants to get both degrees, I'd go with the MSTP since you're at least in the MD program already, so you don't have to deal with the application process. Of course as PhillyMD2006 says, you your tuition paid for and an monthly stipend . However its amazingly hard to get into. The dean of admissions at UCSF called MSTP's: "the people that walk on water". I don't think he was implying that these people were gods, but more along the lines of these people are really amazing. If i recall, the 12 or something people that get into the MSTP at UCSF had an average MCAT score of 34, and GPA of 3.85. Plus all of them have some large amount of previous research experience. If that is what you want to do, then go for it. On a side note, I think its possible to get into an MD program, then apply into a PhD program AFTER. However you will have to pay for med school. THat is another alternative.

bdibble said:

I have been considering the prospect of going on and earning my PhD in biochemistry right after college and then applying to medical school. Do you think it would be more beneficial to have a PhD under my belt before I apply to medical school or should I just apply for the MSTP programs?

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If you get a PhD first, I think you really need to think about how you can come across to medical schools as truly interested in practice. There's no shortage of stories of applicants who have been rejected with the excuse that they have too much research exp and so does not show enough knowledge about medicine. Anyway, I'm applying to MSTP programs... I actually think that if you have adequate research experience, getting into an MSTP program might be easier (and saves more money!) than trying to get into medical school after getting your PhD. Plus, you may not be able to keep up with all the changes in the research field during your time in medical school... even for MSTP graduates, there is already such a huge time gap between the time they do their research work and the time they actually start a lab.

I agree with SpeakLittleB. You would really have to convince the committee members as to why you did a PhD first when your intention was to go into medicine. I really don't think a PhD would give you and advantage, and is spending 6 years in the lab worth it if your goal is to go to med school? (that's what I'm assuming your intention is from your post, but correct me if I'm wrong)

I think what you should do ultimately depends on what career you want when you finish your degree. Do you want to do research and run a lab, or do you want to practice medicine? If you want to practice medicine then forget about the PhD. Alot of PhDs are miserable and it is a very hard and trying process. If you want to do research and practice medicine, then go MSTP. I think if you have enough research experience already and some good recommendations from you lab mentors, then it is not all that much harder than getting into med school. Yes there are fewer spots, but the applicant pool is smaller and the qualified candidates who are doing it for the right reasons usually end up getting in somewhere. Plus med school is paid for and your PhD will have some time contraints on it. If you go the PhD only route you could be looking at 6+ years for the PhD, whereas in the MSTP program lab mentors are pressured to get you out in 3-5 years. Another option is to go the MD route, do a year of research in med school and a postdoc after your residency. It is possible to do research with an MD only. It really depends on what you want to do in your career.

cadilakgrl said:

I agree with SpeakLittleB. You would really have to convince the committee members as to why you did a PhD first when your intention was to go into medicine. I really don't think a PhD would give you and advantage, and is spending 6 years in the lab worth it if your goal is to go to med school? (that's what I'm assuming your intention is from your post, but correct me if I'm wrong)

I think what you should do ultimately depends on what career you want when you finish your degree. Do you want to do research and run a lab, or do you want to practice medicine? If you want to practice medicine then forget about the PhD. Alot of PhDs are miserable and it is a very hard and trying process. If you want to do research and practice medicine, then go MSTP. I think if you have enough research experience already and some good recommendations from you lab mentors, then it is not all that much harder than getting into med school. Yes there are fewer spots, but the applicant pool is smaller and the qualified candidates who are doing it for the right reasons usually end up getting in somewhere. Plus med school is paid for and your PhD will have some time contraints on it. If you go the PhD only route you could be looking at 6+ years for the PhD, whereas in the MSTP program lab mentors are pressured to get you out in 3-5 years. Another option is to go the MD route, do a year of research in med school and a postdoc after your residency. It is possible to do research with an MD only. It really depends on what you want to do in your career.

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Hey Caddie, I hear you can walk on water.

bdibble said:

I have been considering the prospect of going on and earning my PhD in biochemistry right after college and then applying to medical school.

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Sweet Mother of God, do not do this. If you want to be a physician, go to med school. If you want to be a biochemist, go to grad school. If you want to be a physician-scientist, apply to MSTP and MD-only.

It's really that simple.

-Havarti666, PhD (1995-2001), MD (2001-2005)

I agree with Havarti

I have seen a few people who are PhD's and now applying to Med school. At the time they wanted to do PhD's then decided after to medicine. Some of them knew midway through they wanted to go to med school but usually if you are in PhD programs, med schools look down upon leaving programs.

If you know you want both, I would suggest MSTP.

mshheaddoc said:

I agree with Havarti

I have seen a few people who are PhD's and now applying to Med school. At the time they wanted to do PhD's then decided after to medicine. Some of them knew midway through they wanted to go to med school but usually if you are in PhD programs, med schools look down upon leaving programs.

If you know you want both, I would suggest MSTP.

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that's me. having been through a phd, i would recommend the MSTP if you know you want to be a physician-scientist. it's a good deal.

dbhvt said:

Hey Caddie, I hear you can walk on water.

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Walking on water, curing the sick, and coming back from the dead is just a typical day for me. What can I say? Actually I'm just a normal person who probably pales in comparison to most pre-meds. Way too much partying and TV!

I think you take a gamble when doing the PhD first, especially if you don't really like research all that much (I'm not sure if you do or not). Its takes some people 3 years to finish their Ph.D while it takes others 6 YEARS to finish theirs. The MSTP is a smarter way to do this, but if your overall goal is being a physician, and not a phsycian scientist, then go str8 MD.

MSTPs aren't incredibly accelerated... you can shave off a year, any more is likely at the expense of your education. The benefit is entirely financial; if you intend to go into academic medicine through separate degrees, you'll have a harder time paying off the loans than most.

Also, some schools attempt to really integrate the MSTP curriculum between medicine and graduate studies (rather than just split it up awkwardly) and thus put a big emphasis on academic medicine... that looks like another big plus to me.

cadilakgrl said:

Walking on water, curing the sick, and coming back from the dead is just a typical day for me. What can I say? Actually I'm just a normal person who probably pales in comparison to most pre-meds. Way too much partying and TV!

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I think thats what defines you as walking on water. Got into an MSTP, yet still has a relatively normal life. Anyway always thought that was an interesting presentation that the dean did about 2 years ago. Quite memorable!

bdibble said:

I have been considering the prospect of going on and earning my PhD in biochemistry right after college and then applying to medical school. Do you think it would be more beneficial to have a PhD under my belt before I apply to medical school or should I just apply for the MSTP programs?

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Do not do this.

I am in grad school (PhD) and am applying for med school right now. When I started the PhD program I wanted a PhD. I made the decision halfway through that I wanted to go to medical school. Now I have to finish the program in order to go to medical school. Not fun. Having a more-than-full time job (research in lab/TA) has not made the application process easy, and I don't have as much time to get clinical experience as I would like. The PhD might be an advantage in the application process, and will hopefully help me in my medical career but there is a lot of redundant stress and work. I am fortunate to have an adviser who wants to get me out early. You could, however, find yourself stuck on the 7-year plan.

Do NOT go into a PhD program just to better your chances at med school admission. Chances are you could far strengthen your application by doing medical research, clinical volunteering, taking postbac classes and studying your butt off to get a high MCAT score. You could do this in less time as well.

If you want to be a physician-scientist, you can go MSTP provided that your stats are high enough. If you want to be a physician, go MD.

heparin said:

Do not do this.

I am in grad school (PhD) and am applying for med school right now. When I started the PhD program I wanted a PhD. I made the decision halfway through that I wanted to go to medical school. Now I have to finish the program in order to go to medical school. Not fun. Having a more-than-full time job (research in lab/TA) has not made the application process easy, and I don't have as much time to get clinical experience as I would like. The PhD might be an advantage in the application process, and will hopefully help me in my medical career but there is a lot of redundant stress and work. I am fortunate to have an adviser who wants to get me out early. You could, however, find yourself stuck on the 7-year plan.

Do NOT go into a PhD program just to better your chances at med school admission. Chances are you could far strengthen your application by doing medical research, clinical volunteering, taking postbac classes and studying your butt off to get a high MCAT score. You could do this in less time as well.

If you want to be a physician-scientist, you can go MSTP provided that your stats are high enough. If you want to be a physician, go MD.

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we used to joke about the 8th year of graduate school calling it, "puttin' up a snowman," which is a common sports phrase which refers to events that reach the number eight, like strikeouts, runs, etc....

just an opinion - i also feel that you are more likely to come out of a mstp program unscathed, whereas a phd program can destroy people, even when they are good. i doubt the dropout rate of mstp programs comes anywhere near that of phd programs. mstp is likely to take better care of its students, on average.

BozoSparky said:

that's me. having been through a phd, i would recommend the MSTP if you know you want to be a physician-scientist. it's a good deal.

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Me too, and I agree. If I could go back ten years, I would definitely advise my college self to apply to MSTPs.