Poll: Socialized American Healthcare in 2010?

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By 2012 all American healthcare providers will be employees of the federal government

  • Strongly agree, we'll be working for the gov't on set salary

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Weakly agree; it might happen

    Votes: 10 11.4%

  • Weakly disagree; it probably won't happen

    Votes: 25 28.4%

  • Strongly disagree, we'll still be in private practice status quo

    Votes: 52 59.1%
  • Total voters
    88
  • Poll closed .
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The current President leaves office in 2008. There's always the 50/50 chance the Democratic party will win the next election.

Who feels we're eventually looking at socialized healthcare in America by 2012, where all providers become overt or de-facto employees of the government?
 
trinityalumnus said:
The current President leaves office in 2008. There's always the 50/50 chance the Democratic party will win the next election.

Who feels we're eventually looking at socialized healthcare in America by 2012, where all providers become overt or de-facto employees of the government?
Click to expand...

Not a chance.
 
trinityalumnus said:
There's always the 50/50 chance the Democratic party will win the next election.
Click to expand...

If the Democratic Party actually represented "leftist" idealism, then maybe by 2020, but the party (as a whole) is just barely left of center, it would never actually support socialist idealism to the point of actual significant change - and don't tell me about Hillary and the id cards...
 
Just because the Democrats win won't mean that healthcare will reach a socialized point. Their party is made up of the spineless.
 
Far more likely to have national health insurance (ie Medicare extended to those without private insurance, followed by 100% of the population). Mass. is going to try a version of this. It will be interesting to see what happens.
 
The Dems in the past 6yrs have yet to come up with a plan/agenda to address anything. Why would they all of a sudden reform healthcare? Until they unite and devise some strategy to deal with impt. issues and not just GOP/Bush bash they will remain lame ducks. Dean as leader of the DNC? Come on, thats weak.
 
As long as non-medical people do not get sand thrown in their eyes by the dems about the 'perks' of socialized medicine. we should be ok. the key is to enlighten the public about what socialized medicine REALLY means.
 
To the OP

I don't think many people (judging from what I've seen on news talkshows from various politicians and thinktanks who support it) that support universal healthcare want to do it through the socialized route

They want to do it via a single payor, like what another poster mentioned Medicare for everybody in the population

Under this system, the only government part of healthcare would be the payor

Everything else (hospitals, docs, etc) would be private

Docs would submit bills to the payor like they do now, but they would still be private practice physicians (unless employed by a hospital or academic institution like many are now)

This is the way it is in Canada

A socialized system would be that of Britain, where docs do work for government
 
SleepIsGood said:
..... the key is to enlighten the public about what socialized medicine REALLY means.
Click to expand...

Not to disparage Veteran's Administration providers and employees, but to get a glimpse of socialized (ie, bureaucratic to the max) US healthcare just take a stroll through your local VA.

I occasionally perform make up reserve drill by passing gas at my local VA. I see it first hand. The providers and employees care about their patients, but the bureaucracy is mind-boggling.
 
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Canada has socialized medicine. National health insurance is not socialized. Main differences are 1) source of funding and 2) delivery of care.

Socialized systems have a taxation based method of paying for the care. That's why you see high levels of income and value added tax/sales taxes in the UK and other countries like Sweden. National health insurance is typically like the German model (BTW around since 1883). The government mandates that everyone must be covered under health insurance (typically via employers purchasing it). For those unable to work, or poor/sick etc, the government pays for their coverage through taxation. This is what Mass. is going to try. The reason it works in many other countries is that the health insurance industry is mandated to be not-for-profit. So, no UnitedHealthcare, no Kaiser, no WellPoint. That, I don't think, would work in this country and would also negate many of the admistrative cost-savings seen.

Delivery of care: Germany limits healthcare expenditure by controling what hospitals can purchase. That typically means that the CT/MRI other machines are 1 generation old, instead of the bleeding edge. Also, in the hospital, every test ordered is scrutinized. Physicians working in hospitals are govt employees (I believe). Out of the hospital, it's private practice like here. There are no governmental controls over the actual care delivered. In socialized systems, most physicians are govt employees and the care is rationed to a greater extent.

I think a form of national health insurance could work in this country, and would be far more palatable to the American people. Socialized medicine in this country would be like a cross between the VA and the post office.
 
proman said:
Canada has socialized medicine.
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Socialized medicine is typically viewed to be as the government owning all aspects of healthcare, from the payor, to the hospital, to the physician, all healthcare workers, etc...are all owned/employed by the government.

Just to reiterate, Canada does not have this. The only aspect of healthcare that relates to the government is the payor. The government is the single payor. They have private insurance for accessory non-critical services. This is currently a hot topic there right now by the way.

The physicians, hospitals, healthcare workers are private just like our system.

Again, the only difference is the payor. Instead of a physician's office billing an HMO, they simply bill the government payor (which ironically, I believe is called Medicare in Canada)

Had to point out the difference, just so people have it right.
 
This is a fact.

Most Americans agree that the USA should have universal coverage.

We have the most expensive system in the world, and one of the poorest outcomes of any of the industrialized countries. Hence, we already have the most inefficient system in the world. It is unsustainable.

As physicians we need to take the reigns in developing a universal health care system that efficiently delivers care to all Americans and doesn't make us take it on the chin. That should be the argument, not whether it will ever happen here. Of course it's going to happen!

Unfortunately, we could end up with an even worse funded version of Medicaid if we're not proactive.
 
starsop93 said:
This is a fact.

Most Americans agree that the USA should have universal coverage.

We have the most expensive system in the world, and one of the poorest outcomes of any of the industrialized countries. Hence, we already have the most inefficient system in the world. It is unsustainable.

As physicians we need to take the reigns in developing a universal health care system that efficiently delivers care to all Americans and doesn't make us take it on the chin. That should be the argument, not whether it will ever happen here. Of course it's going to happen!

Unfortunately, we could end up with an even worse funded version of Medicaid if we're not proactive.
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This is a fact, Jessica Simpson wants my 12in penis. She also wants to give me a million dollars and a private jet.

Just because I say it, does not make it a fact. What is your source? What poll is that?

I think that Americans are generally scared of change in the healthcare. They understand medicare and medicaid. They know the limitations. Why do you think that 5 million americans did not sign up for the script benefit...it was confusing and new.

I agree with the poster that talks about the German system of Nation Health insurance. I think that everyone needs a basic level of care.

Here it is:

No extra money: Have to go to University Center Clinics and hospital for care. ER visits are paid for. Maternity only at university centers. Generic meds paid for.

Level one: All procedures at University center. Can go to private clinics. Yearly deductable at X dollars. Good prescription plan.

Level two: Anything at anywhere. Devistating ilness...cancer/major trauma/ has to go special places. Deductable. Very good script plan.

Level three: Everything paid for. Large deductable.

Obviously Levels 1-3 are not free and will be paid for by the end customer. Levels 1-3 are run by private companies, but criteria are decided by Government committee that reports to head of HHS.

This is a very very rough outline. People that can afford it need to have the ability to have access to healthcare. It is not their fault that they worked harder and made more money.
 
We have the most expensive system in the world, and one of the poorest outcomes of any of the industrialized countries. Hence, we already have the most inefficient system in the world. It is unsustainable.

As physicians we need to take the reigns in developing a universal health care system that efficiently delivers care to all Americans and doesn't make us take it on the chin. That should be the argument, not whether it will ever happen here. Of course it's going to happen!


http://www.piperreport.com/archives/2004/05/twice_as_many_m.html

From article:

"But never fear. There may yet be a silver lining. The long waiting lists in Canada give patients more time to get their affairs in order. And Canadians can take heart that their hospitals are not nearly as dangerous as those in Australia, Britain, or New Zealand."



Trinity is 100% correct in his assessment....the current-day VA medical system is the future (God-forbid) Nationalized-Health-Care-System (Single-payer system, etc...call it what you will).
 
As long as it takes our government to decide on anything, even simpler issues, I highly doubt they will get their act together and have something as complicated as a complete reform of healthcare together and agreed upon by 2012. Especially considering the American public as a whole in my oppinion would not support that type of healthcare reform. We value our independance and right to choose too much.

While I think our healthcare system has a lot of downfalls, and the social healthcare system does have some benefits, I don't think a system like what Canada has is the answer for America.
 
starsop93 said:
This is a fact.

Most Americans agree that the USA should have universal coverage.

We have the most expensive system in the world, and one of the poorest outcomes of any of the industrialized countries. Hence, we already have the most inefficient system in the world. It is unsustainable.

As physicians we need to take the reigns in developing a universal health care system that efficiently delivers care to all Americans and doesn't make us take it on the chin. That should be the argument, not whether it will ever happen here. Of course it's going to happen!

Unfortunately, we could end up with an even worse funded version of Medicaid if we're not proactive.
Click to expand...

:laugh: :laugh:

Now thats naietivity in action.
 
SilverStreak said:
As long as it takes our government to decide on anything, even simpler issues, I highly doubt they will get their act together and have something as complicated as a complete reform of healthcare together and agreed upon by 2012. Especially considering the American public as a whole in my oppinion would not support that type of healthcare reform. We value our independance and right to choose too much.

While I think our healthcare system has a lot of downfalls, and the social healthcare system does have some benefits, I don't think a system like what Canada has is the answer for America.
Click to expand...

From the cover of USA Today of Thursday, 5/18/06:

www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-05-18-medicare_x.htm

A small portion:

Taxpayers will soon get a surprise bill that could exceed $1 trillion for the cost of paying future medical benefits for state and local workers who retire.
Retiree medical costs are the biggest long-term challenge that state and local governments face. By comparison, state and local pensions have an unfunded liability of about $500 billion.

State and local governments have set aside $2.5 trillion to help pay pension benefits for 19 million civil servants and 7 million retirees. But they have set aside almost nothing to pay for retiree medical benefits.

"Taxpayers will revolt when they realize the enormous cost of this," Minnesota State Auditor Pat Anderson says. She says the financial burdens on local governments will be so great they will put pressure on the federal government to nationalize health care, which she opposes.
 
WildcatMD said:
Under this system, the only government part of healthcare would be the payor

Everything else (hospitals, docs, etc) would be private

Docs would submit bills to the payor like they do now, but they would still be private practice physicians (unless employed by a hospital or academic institution like many are now)

This is the way it is in Canada

A socialized system would be that of Britain, where docs do work for government
Click to expand...


Given the choice between the UK system and the Canadian system, give me UK any day of the week and twice on sundays.

As I've argued before, if we are going to have "Universal coverage" its much better for docs to be employees of the government, rather than private contractors.

Private contractors = you pay for your own malpractice coverage

As employees of the federal govt, docs have a good chance of having the fed govt pick up the tab on malpractice

UK docs make a lot more money than Canadian docs.
 
starsop93 said:
This is a fact.

Most Americans agree that the USA should have universal coverage.

We have the most expensive system in the world, and one of the poorest outcomes of any of the industrialized countries. Hence, we already have the most inefficient system in the world. It is unsustainable.

As physicians we need to take the reigns in developing a universal health care system that efficiently delivers care to all Americans and doesn't make us take it on the chin. That should be the argument, not whether it will ever happen here. Of course it's going to happen!

Unfortunately, we could end up with an even worse funded version of Medicaid if we're not proactive.
Click to expand...

If you actually informed the average American about the Canadian system (including the insanely long waitlists), then I'd be they'd be happier with our system than the Canadian one.
 
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MacGyver said:
Given the choice between the UK system and the Canadian system, give me UK any day of the week and twice on sundays.

As I've argued before, if we are going to have "Universal coverage" its much better for docs to be employees of the government, rather than private contractors.QUOTE]


As you wish.....use the following links to these articles to imagine your utopian nationalized healthcare system:

Here's your safer medical care:

http://society.guardian.co.uk/nhsperformance/story/0,8150,1498761,00.html

Here's your more efficient medical care:

http://society.guardian.co.uk/nhsperformance/story/0,8150,1498761,00.html

http://society.guardian.co.uk/publicfinances/story/0,,1770556,00.html

Pt stays 1,533 days after physicians d/c him....ha! now that's EFFICIENCY!

http://society.guardian.co.uk/publicfinances/story/0,,1765620,00.html

Britain's 'Model' system of healthcare delivery is in 'cash crisis'....hmmm, you don't say.....someone get Adam Smith on the phone!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,,1760313,00.html
Click to expand...
 
First I didn't say Americans wanted a Canadian system. I said that the Canadians are much happier with their system than we are with ours, and that when given the choice on polls, Americans overwhelmingly desire to have universal coverage in some form.

The waitlists in Canada are overblown by the media. There are waits for some elective procedures and tests, but they spend a fraction of what we do on health care, and it isn't like all Americans get their tests and surgeries immediately either. If Canada spent anywhere near what we spend there wouldn't be any waiting lists at all.

It's a totally false analogy anyway, because a completely government run system would simply never fly in the US. More likely we're going to get a mix of public and private coverage. The wealthy will still get their full-body CT scans ASAP!
 
So lets say we are going to make a major healthcare reform in the US, starting today. What would be the top 10 things on your list to include? Mine would be, not necessarily in this order...

1. prescription coverage paid for all those over 65
2. required annual healthcare screenings-including well check ups, mamograms,prostate exams,colon screenings
3. freedom to choose what physcians you see
4. somehow eliminate using the ER as a PCP since it drives up already exhorbitant medical costs that much more
5. less choice of insurance A-Z plans, and more of a stream lined quality insurance coverage with reasonable premiums and co-pays
6. a trend toward preventative medicine instead of curative
7. let physicians have more say in how insurance gets billed- to a point, it should be a legal system with few ways to loophold around and get away with fraud
8. throw DMGs away and use something that makes more sense in our society since majority of patients have co morbid diseases not just one illness
9. increased use of mid level practioners to help combat cost
10. come up with a system that combines the best of our healthcare with the best of a system like canada so that we all get quality top of the line medical care in a timely manner, and still have a choice in making our own healthcare decisions.

But, the bottom line is we need educate the american public on how screwed up our healthcare system is and why on a simplistic level they can understand. The polls we read are meaningless if we don't grasp the fact that many Americans do not have a clue how healthcare in this country is run and probably don't care, until if affects them personally. We pay more for healthcare than any other country in the world, and yet our system is by far the most efficient and we do not have signficantly better healthcare outcomes to show for all the money we spend. There's not a clear answer or there would not be so much debate on the complicated topic.
 
SilverStreak said:
So lets say we are going to make a major healthcare reform in the US, starting today. What would be the top 10 things on your list to include? Mine would be, not necessarily in this order...

1. prescription coverage paid for all those over 65
2. required annual healthcare screenings-including well check ups, mamograms,prostate exams,colon screenings
3. freedom to choose what physcians you see
4. somehow eliminate using the ER as a PCP since it drives up already exhorbitant medical costs that much more
5. less choice of insurance A-Z plans, and more of a stream lined quality insurance coverage with reasonable premiums and co-pays
6. a trend toward preventative medicine instead of curative
7. let physicians have more say in how insurance gets billed- to a point, it should be a legal system with few ways to loophold around and get away with fraud
8. throw DMGs away and use something that makes more sense in our society since majority of patients have co morbid diseases not just one illness
9. increased use of mid level practioners to help combat cost
10. come up with a system that combines the best of our healthcare with the best of a system like canada so that we all get quality top of the line medical care in a timely manner, and still have a choice in making our own healthcare decisions.

But, the bottom line is we need educate the american public on how screwed up our healthcare system is and why on a simplistic level they can understand. The polls we read are meaningless if we don't grasp the fact that many Americans do not have a clue how healthcare in this country is run and probably don't care, until if affects them personally. We pay more for healthcare than any other country in the world, and yet our system is by far the most efficient and we do not have signficantly better healthcare outcomes to show for all the money we spend. There's not a clear answer or there would not be so much debate on the complicated topic.
Click to expand...


My 10 would probably be the following:

1. "If you can't feed them, don't breed them." Forced sterilization for all these poor bastards who can't stop ****ing.

2. Promote abortion.

3. Quarantine everybody with HIV/AIDS. (Cuba did it; it works).

4. Deport Pedro; shut down the border.

5. Require all people to buy health insurance. Ever been to a county hospital? These people can't "afford" health insurance, yet they sure as hell can afford cell phones, cadillacs, and illicit drugs.

6. Legalize euthanasia

7. "Fat tax"--taxes commensurate with waist line.

8. No health care for criminals.

9. Help people accept that death is a natural part of life, and that we weren't meant to live forever.

10. Let Chuck Norris decide.
 
Hey,


Don't hold back....give it to me straight.....tell me what you really think.
 
SilverStreak said:
So lets say we are going to make a major healthcare reform in the US, starting today. What would be the top 10 things on your list to include? Mine would be, not necessarily in this order...

1. prescription coverage paid for all those over 65
2. required annual healthcare screenings-including well check ups, mamograms,prostate exams,colon screenings
3. freedom to choose what physcians you see
4. somehow eliminate using the ER as a PCP since it drives up already exhorbitant medical costs that much more
5. less choice of insurance A-Z plans, and more of a stream lined quality insurance coverage with reasonable premiums and co-pays
6. a trend toward preventative medicine instead of curative
7. let physicians have more say in how insurance gets billed- to a point, it should be a legal system with few ways to loophold around and get away with fraud
8. throw DMGs away and use something that makes more sense in our society since majority of patients have co morbid diseases not just one illness
9. increased use of mid level practioners to help combat cost
10. come up with a system that combines the best of our healthcare with the best of a system like canada so that we all get quality top of the line medical care in a timely manner, and still have a choice in making our own healthcare decisions.

But, the bottom line is we need educate the american public on how screwed up our healthcare system is and why on a simplistic level they can understand. The polls we read are meaningless if we don't grasp the fact that many Americans do not have a clue how healthcare in this country is run and probably don't care, until if affects them personally. We pay more for healthcare than any other country in the world, and yet our system is by far the most efficient and we do not have signficantly better healthcare outcomes to show for all the money we spend. There's not a clear answer or there would not be so much debate on the complicated topic.
Click to expand...


Smells like unlimited wants in the face of limited resources....we failed our req'd college econ class, didn't we?
 
the one hope that I have that we'll be able to fight off socialized medicine is the insurance industry.

They are heavy hitters in Washington DC with massive lobbying efforts.

They would be the clear losers if America switched over to universal care, giving them an enormous incentive to fight it with everything they have in their arsenal.
 
the one hope that I have that we'll be able to fight off socialized medicine is the insurance industry.

They are heavy hitters in Washington DC with massive lobbying efforts.
Click to expand...

Hey, what went wrong, I agree with you !

The insurance industry OWNS capitol hill. Look at how they managed to turn medicare part D into a gigantic handout to the insurance industry while big pharma castrated any ability of CMS to negotiate prices on a national level.

Anyone who tries to spread fear that the democrats are planning to socialize healthcare should look at medicare part D as an example of how this won't happen in real life.
 
SilverStreak said:
But, the bottom line is we need educate the american public on how screwed up our healthcare system is and why on a simplistic level they can understand.
Click to expand...

Our healthcare system isn't intrinsically flawed. It's the people of America who **** up what is actually an incredible system.
 
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RonaldColeman said:
10. Let Chuck Norris decide.
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Chuck Norris doesn't have to decide. His kick has an auto-tracking system that allows him to kick blindly and hit his target. His kicks also explode on impact, vaporizing his target.
 
Dr. J? said:
Smells like unlimited wants in the face of limited resources....we failed our req'd college econ class, didn't we?
Click to expand...

Actually no, I made an A, but that is beside the point. My point is if you could make a list of all the things you want, what would be on your list? Then, what of those things would you be willing to compromise on? Of course we can't have everything we want for everybody in the US. But as leaders in healthcare, don't you think we are more qualified to come up with a system that works?
 
RonaldColeman said:
Our healthcare system isn't intrinsically flawed. It's the people of America who **** up what is actually an incredible system.
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Sorry I live in Tennessee and see the toll it has taken. No system is perfect, all systems have some intrinsic flaws. It is a question of cost versus benefits. What are you willng to pay, and what are you willing to give up to have more of something else? The people of America have not intentionally messed up our system.
 
Idiopathic said:
Well, at least you shy away from controversy 🙄
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I knew I should have left that one out. My reasoning for this is not what you're probably thinking. It is my oppinion, feel free to gang up on me if you wish, that if we were to move to a more socialist type of system similar to Canada that a core problem would be a lack of supply in healthcare providers to meet the demand of healthcare needs of Americans. The use of midlevel providers would be a way to offset this need and make delivery of care more timely and efficient. This statement was not an intent of a midlevel wanting to take over the role of physicians in healthcare.

Think about not even in the office or hospital setting if nurse practioners could branch out into the community and have a greater impact on the health of americans. If NPs were to start more diabetic clinics and do teaching about blood sugar management and help our patients get more affordable access to diabetic supplies, then maybe we would eventually see less of the devastating effects of poorly controlled blood sugar for twenty years. By the time we see them they have diabetic nephropathy, PVD, cardiac disease, repeated infections, how much better would our healthcare be if we could prevent all of these things rather than treat them when they occur? That is what I had in mind when I said midlevels could help combat cost. There are a hundred other ways we can make a difference if we were utilized properly.
 
RonaldColeman said:
My 10 would probably be the following:

1. "If you can't feed them, don't breed them." Forced sterilization for all these poor bastards who can't stop ****ing.

2. Promote abortion.

3. Quarantine everybody with HIV/AIDS. (Cuba did it; it works).

4. Deport Pedro; shut down the border.

5. Require all people to buy health insurance. Ever been to a county hospital? These people can't "afford" health insurance, yet they sure as hell can afford cell phones, cadillacs, and illicit drugs.

6. Legalize euthanasia

7. "Fat tax"--taxes commensurate with waist line.

8. No health care for criminals.

9. Help people accept that death is a natural part of life, and that we weren't meant to live forever.

10. Let Chuck Norris decide.
Click to expand...


#11. If your disease is a direct result of poor lifestyle choices, then no healthcare for you.

In the movie 'Traffic', there's a scene where the US drug czar (michael douglas) asks his mexican counterpart what his gov't is doing to provide rehab for drug users. The mexican dude says "Nothing, we let them overdose and off themselves".

Cruel but I am sure it saves a lot of money.
 
jetproppilot said:
#12) If you get capped in a turf war/drug deal gone bad/shootout with the police...A.M.F.Y.O.Y.O.
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and why do I say this?

cuz this afternoon a New Orleans police officer got capped three times during a routine traffic stop by a young-gangsta with a felony record.

25 year old cop. Vest blocked the bullet to his chest.

But it couldnt stop the two to his head.

Wonderful city I live in.
 
Unfortunately it's also the same city that a cop shot a mentally disabled black man in the back as he was running away from him during the Katrina flood.

RonaldColeman: Our system is NOT "incredible". You seriously believe that the people of Americans are responsible for the increasing lack of coverage? Most of the people who take advantage of the system haven't had private insurance for decades. The people who are losing their insurance now or can't afford it are those who really are chronically sick and regular healthy people in the middle class. Even if you blame those who don't have insurance for their own lack of insurance, why is it that we deliver care to those that do have coverage with much worse outcomes than nearly all other industrialized nations?

You don't think that attitude affects your delivery of care either? Don't you think that we would all be a little less pissed off if when we got called in the middle of the night to do a case that we would absolutely get paid for it?

Our system is flawed, but shoreing up the funding for Medicare and extending it incrementally down to younger and younger people might be a first start. Yes, I know Medicare pays ****, but as physicians we could have some bargaining power if this was done. It would obviously require a sizable tax increase.
 
starsop93 said:
Unfortunately it's also the same city that a cop shot a mentally disabled black man in the back as he was running away from him during the Katrina flood.
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Are you talking about the guy that was waiving a knife and threatening all of the cops on St. Charles street after he had already threatened many citizens. The cops tried to subdue him without force. He would not listen. He was schizo and out of meds. The guy then led the cops down St. Charles and then began to lunge at the cops. The cops then shot him.

Justified kill.

Many people died during Katrina. People that did not get out. People that looted the wrong stores. Do not be quick to judge. Unless you saw video of a cop shooting a disabled man in the back, who the f*&^ are you to judge that cop. You do not know the situation. You do not know s h i t.

JPP correct me if I am wrong. Pre-Katrina bout 1600 cops for 400,000 people. During Katrina 120-200 cops after the wimps left for about 50,000 people. They did their best.

This crap pisses me off. This city is a great place.
 
I read an article about New Orleans and they had a breakdown of all the politicians elected in that jurisdiction.

Every single judge and politician elected there is a bleeding heart liberal democrat.

Take for example their judges. There is a judge named Charles Elloie who routinely refuses to allow violent thugs to go to jail. He gives them no bail, throws out good evidence against them, and routinely overturns jury verdicts against them or lessens the sentence that the jury gives out.

Of course he's a bleeding heart liberal democrat judge who thinks that violent criminals should be coddled, and that they would change their dirty ways if we simply hold hands with them and sing cumbayah.

Elloie is a scumbag, who got elected to judgeship ONLY because he's a liberal black democrat. He can run unopposed as long as he wants, because people in New Orleans vote strictly along racial lines.
 
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"Canadians are far happier with their system than we are with ours"

Canadian doctors have flocked here for years due to disatisfaction with that system. Don't they count?
 
cubs3canes said:
JPP correct me if I am wrong. Pre-Katrina bout 1600 cops for 400,000 people. During Katrina 120-200 cops after the wimps left for about 50,000 people. They did their best.

This crap pisses me off. This city is a great place.
Click to expand...

I don't at all blame the police for the pandemonium during Katrina.

No police force on planet earth could handle the load....they needed federal backup quicker than what occurred.

That being said though, where else on earth during mass-evacuation has pandemonium broken out to the extent it did here?

After mass evacuations of various Florida/Texas/Alabama/South Carolina cities during some of the previous year's hurricanes, did you see surfer-dudes pillaging surf shops for boards? Where were the citizens in those states carrying "essential items" they commandeered from stores for "survival", like TVs, 5 pairs of Nike's, cases of Heineken floating in a barrel, etc.??

Where were the stories of members of the police force "borrowing" Cadillacs from the local GM dealer and, uhhh, "forgetting" to return them?

Point being, New Orleans COULD be a great place.

I wouldnt call a city with a pre-Katrina violent crime rate that was off the charts, and an again-rising violent crime rate, a GREAT place.

Whats needed?

Elimination of police corruption and an increased emphasis on police presence.

The New Orleans police department needs a facelift in an effort to thwart the violent crime problem here.
 
SilverStreak said:
Actually no, I made an A, but that is beside the point. My point is if you could make a list of all the things you want, what would be on your list? Then, what of those things would you be willing to compromise on? Of course we can't have everything we want for everybody in the US. But as leaders in healthcare, don't you think we are more qualified to come up with a system that works?
Click to expand...

Actually....NO....I don't think that simply b/c we're "*in the medical field*" we are inherently "more qualified" than any Punchclock-Joe or Lunchpail-Larry to devise "a system that works". This American Healthcare System is simply too large and too complex to try to use central command economy techniques to improve. You see Canada and the UK trying to redesign and adapt their centralized systems (via legislative means) to the ever-changing needs of their constituents and it simply is not working for them (see above posts on UK).

Whenever you have a small group of so-called "experts" making decisions for a larger group of people you, by definition, strip the larger group of people of some measure of autonomy. This was the case in Canada - until recently - where physicians were not allowed to take private insurance. Therefore, if you had a great deal of disposable income you were not at liberty to utilize your resources to procure a knee surgery in short order like you would be able to do here in the states. Whether we like to admit it or not, healthcare is rationed - it happens every day in every hospital in the country. Now, who would you rather have making choices of when, where and how to ration (when your mother is in the hospital)? Would you rather have your mother and her physician calling the shots or would you rather have some legislator in D.C. deciding?
 
Dr. J? said:
Now, who would you rather have making choices of when, where and how to ration (when your mother is in the hospital)? Would you rather have your mother and her physician calling the shots or would you rather have some legislator in D.C. deciding?
Click to expand...

So you think my mother and her physician are calling all the shots today if she's in the hospital? You can't honetly think that is an accurate description of the healthcare system in America today either. Maybe I am an idealist in terms of what I wish we could accomplish for all, but I know better than to think that me and my doctor decide all my healthcare decisions with no other influence.

The reason I think healthcare professionals are more qualified than the general public to make healthcare changes is because they understand why the system doesn't work, ways it could be better, and know all of the players involved in the game. Medicine is a business just like any other capitalist gain in America, but who is winning? I'm not saying we should have a socialist healthcare like Canada, but clearly private isn't working either. Healthcare policies tend to get made without considering the ramifications four steps ahead of what the initial expected result will be. When we get to the fourth step, we realize oh crap, now we have this problem, and we've spent this much money to get here.

Considering it purely from a professional standpoint, do you think any other field would anticipate major ground shaking changes and not want to be involved in the fundamental creation of a new system? If you're interested in your future career, I would think you would also feel that the healthcare leaders should take an active role in reshaping the healthcare policies of this country.

I don't want the government telling me what doctor to go to, or what medicine I can take, or when I can have my surgery, but there are plenty of other groups in the US that in effect do the same thing right now, it's just behind the scenes. No where in the world is there a country with a perfect healthcare set up, that is clear. I just don't think one of the leading industrialized countries should have one of the most inefficient healthcare systems and it continue to be tolerated. If we don't speak up for ways we think the system can be improved, then we very well may end up with something worse, and not realize it for another twenty years.
 
1. Death
2. Taxes
3. People constantly whining about healthcare

I almost didn't go into med school because of some TIME article in 1998 said our healthcare was about to implode. I was really rethinking my anesthesiology choice because of the CNRA crap. Then one day last Fall I was in the OR with a Peds Anesthiology fellow who was debating whether or not to take a 500k/year job in Nevada. I just had to laugh. What will happen with healthcare I don't know and really neither do any of you no matter how many US News and World report links you throw up. What do I know? There are a lot of very wealthy people in the US that will always pay for healthcare - always. The CEO of whatever company is not going to go to the county hospital to get his hernia repaired and either am I. As far as the Cananda thing most of my family lives in Toronto. The healthcare is fine - I'm not going to say better or worse - but they constantly bitch too. So chill with the sky is falling. Or at least move on to something more chic like global warming or illegal aliens.
 
1. Death
2. Taxes
3. People constantly whining about healthcare
Click to expand...

And that is an international phenomenon.

- The canadians whine about waiting listsa and travel time to get MRIs.
- The US americans whine about co-pays and declined coverage.
- The brits whine about decrepit hospitals.
- The germans whine about $4 medication co-pays.
- The french whine about american predominance in medical science.
- The spaniards whine about having to go to out of pocket private physicians because the goverment clinics are booked solid.
 
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