Residencies for a pharmacist

Are residencies paid? If so how much? What areas are residencies required?

Just wondering...Thanks!

UN4GETTABLE said:

Are residencies paid? If so how much? What areas are residencies required?

Just wondering...Thanks!

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30-40k a year
Most are in hospitals or the VA

some people said there is NOT much benefit after you do one more year of residency, is that true?? anyone knows more about this?? I was thinking if I survive pharmacy school with a decent GPA, I'll go for residency but not so sure about what program yet....

If you know more about this topic, please respond..thanks guys 🙂

What do you want to do when you grow up? If it involves Walgreens, a residency is pointless. If you want to be a clinical pharmacist or a professor, it's the way to go.

UN4GETTABLE said:

Are residencies paid? If so how much? What areas are residencies required?

Just wondering...Thanks!

Click to expand...

You might want to check out the frequently asked questions section as this question comes up alot:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=208137&page=1&pp=25

The short of it is there are many types of programs (check out www.accp.com or www.ashp.com) for various search engines. Type of residencies vary w/ practice site from a more critical care focus in most academic teaching facilities vs. typically a more ambulatory care focus (w/ some internal medicine) in VA hospitals, Kaisers, etc. However, depending on what you want then you can find your interest in either type of facility so trying to sum it up in 1 post is kind of hard given the variety of programs out there.

Pay: typically ranges from 33k/yr--44k/yr w/ most programs are in the 38-42k/yr. Hrs will vary with each program.

Why do a residency?:
If you want a clinical job in a hospital than residencies will be the typical requirement; however, if you want to go straight to community/retail than residency may not be in your best interest. Long term care/home infusion typically won't require residencies. Government jobs (i.e. VA, FDA, NIH) typically desire residency training or auxillary degree (i.e. MPH for FDA or CDC).
APhA does have community residencies (www.aphanet.org) typically for those who want to establish disease state management (diabetes, HTN, lipids) programs in a retail setting. Reality is that residency programs don't guarantee anything as they are not required by law (but will probably be required in the next 5-10yrs?? or so they say).

What you do w/ the experience and how you apply it to your future experiences will depend on you more than the program you go through (just like pharmacy school).

Pay for those w/ residency training compared to those w/o residency training varies depending on geographic area, but sometimes in hospitals those w/ residency training tend to make a little more (not much only 1k-2kr/yr) against those w/ similar yrs of being out of school. Example you might make a little more having done the residency than a person who has been out of school for same period of time but who did not do a residency in the same hospital. Obviously those w/ more experience tend to make a little more, but salaries don't change much in pharmacy unless you move around or move up into management. The residency typically helps alot when moving up in managment for like a clinical coordinator position, but for a pharmacy director position they will focus more on your previous management experience unless of course you did a managerial residency. But this varies alot as they are quite a few pharmacies in major academic centers where the pharm director has only a BS (and maybe a MBA or MS in pharmacy administration). This just varies alot w/ experience, the hospital, and talent pool.

Residency training will typically effect job satisfaction/duties more than what it will directly effect pay. However, indirect effects on pay and/or prestige are also commonly associated w/ residency training (i.e. pd for speakers burea stuff (i.e. CE lectures, outside consulting w/ drug companies, precepting students). Like I said it really depends on what makes you happy and what you do w/ what you have. Board certification (www.bpsweb.org) is also impt but at this time you don't need residency training to become board certified, but residency training enables you to become board certified earlier in your career and I think also is correlated w/ higher passing rates on board certification exams. Direct financial benefits for board certification vary w/ who you work for. Most VAs give raises for board certification whereas most other companies reimburse you for the cost of the exam.

My bad I thought this was supposed to be the short answer.

Moving to the Pharmacy Residencies & Fellowships forum...

futurepharm.d.? said:

some people said there is NOT much benefit after you do one more year of residency, is that true?? anyone knows more about this?? I was thinking if I survive pharmacy school with a decent GPA, I'll go for residency but not so sure about what program yet....

If you know more about this topic, please respond..thanks guys 🙂

Click to expand...

Well there is truth in that statement. It really depends what you wanna do too. If you wanna be a specialist you might have to do one. What I would do if I were you, is start working and preferrably somewhere where clinical staff pharmacists have clinical duties. There are lot of hospitals now that actually have clinical staff pharmacists go on floors and round with medical teams.

Your best bet is to really learn your craft (on the job) while working as a staff. Put some extra time into it, vs. doing a residency. Residency is only usefull, for following reasons:

1) You dont' know what you are doing, so you want one more year of being precepted to solidify your knowledge

2) You want to be a clinical co-ordinator, or you want to do research

3) You enjoy doing projects

You can be just as competent as a staff clinical pharmacist as someone who did a residency, particularly if you wanna learn and you take initiative on your own.

Think of it this way, would you rather take a 60,000 dollar pay cut to do residency, or would you rather get full salary working as a clinical pharmacist, and maybe put in some extra time on your own to improve yourself.

My bottom line advice is go to a hospital that allows its clinical staff pharmacists lot of clinical duties and learn your craft there. Forget about residency for now. And remember if for any reason you feel like you need to do more you can always take a residency. Good luck.

p.s. I forgot one more thing, if you wanna be in a highly specialized field, like cancer or critical care, or transplant, then you might need a residency.

Tupac_don has certainly made some interesting points. However the clinical staff model may indeed work but will depend more largely on where you work so you may want to consider the following:

1-Clinical Staff is an option, but in that case you come straight out of pharmacy school you don't have any leverage over the pharmacists who are already at that location and may potentially have more experience or a higher position on the "food chain". So in this case it kind of depends on the aspirations of you as an individual and the aspirations of the others.

Residency training increases the likelihood of getting that clinical position and also provides you some basis for actually illustrating your capacity in various clinical aspects (i.e. formulary management, DUR, DRRs, presentations, some research, AC/TDM dosing in clinic/inpt settings, in addition to a reinforcement of your knowledge of therapeutics in various disciplines).

If you don't do the residency than you run the risk of not even having to oppurtunity to be exposed in those various areas b/c of various reasons (i.e. others w/ more experience get 1st dibs or the pharmacy administration has a clinical ladder in place).

2-Another comment made by tupac_don which was quite interesting was that one of the reasons for doing a residency is b/c you "really don't know what you want to do". As much as I'd like to say tupac_don is completely wrong in this regard, I've gotta admit that in some cases he is write. Some folks do residency training just to buy themselves more time (however I really wouldn't reccomend telling this to the residency faculty and program directors when interviewing)

However, on the other side of the argument many do do residency training b/c they see it either as a tool to maximize their potential as pharmacist or see it as a soon to be mandated requirement to obtain certain positions in pharmacy (note the whole clinical pharmacist ladder or see the various visions for pharmacy training in AJHP or Pharmacotherapy).

However, for right now there is more than one way to "skin a cat" so the clinical staff option may not be a bad way to go if you really don't want to do a residency and would still like an option at getting a clinical position. But I would just keep in mind that the window is kind of closing in some areas in regards to the availability of clinical positions unless you have yrs of experience (i.e. >3-5yr). Even in some cases the clinical staff positions (50%staffing/50% clinical) are also being restricted to those w/ 1yr of residency training or yrs of experience (>3-5yrs) w/ the clinical specialist positions (i.e. 100% clinical) being reserved for those w/ 2 yrs of residency training.

Please see the "vision for pharmacy residency training in Pharmacotherapy or on ACCP position statements section. It should also be noted that the "clinical pharmacy ladder" still describes a proposed idea, but is becoming more common in major academic teaching facilities and some of your smaller community-teaching facilities. If you want to go the clinical staff route I would try a private sector hospital w/ developing clinical services or possibly try consulting in LTC for a little to gain some experience; however, it may vary depending on hospital how they perceive LTC experience vs hospital experience. For instance some hospitals consider 1yr of retail exp = 0.5 yrs of hospital experience when negotiating pay (I'm not sure about LTC).

If you want to do retail, just go to retail (no residency necessary). Given that things are still evolving your own individual ambition will be the rate limiting step. You may run into hurdles either way so just be willing to adjust w/ the situation and push for your desired experiences and sit for the board certification ASAP to validate your knowledge and expertise.(you are eligible for BCPS after 3yrs for PharmD w/o residency training vs being eligible the October after 1yr residency training for PGY1).

About decade ago the separation was b/w the PharmD vs the BS in regards to clinical positions w/ PharmD typically having the advantage unless the BS really had a lot of experience. Now the separation is becoming to be b/w the PharmDs w/ residency training and those w/o residency training so basically the PharmD w/o residency training may face the same difficulties as the BS (i.e. the BS w/o management training (MBA, MHA, MS, or experience)) is facing now resulting in a difficulty getting certain jobs or moving up in positions that are not directly associated w/ staffing and/or not in retail.

Therefore in a few yrs (who knows really how long) those w/o the training whether it be through residency experience or on the job training may not be able to pursue various avenues that aren't associated w/ staffing. Possibly too much fortune telling, but it depends what your financial/family obligations and aspirations are when deciding which options best suits you.

Interesting dialogue though.

Here is the case:
Got a BSc in Biochemistry (Europe), a BSc in Pharmacy (Europe), a PhD in Molecular Genetics (Europe) and came in US as a postdoctoral fellow. I did here 4 years of fellowship, published 10 papers and decided that PhDs are starving comparing to PharmDs . Same job is paid half if only having a PhD and not a PharmD (did you know??). Got admitted in PharmD program and about to graduate soon. Question: is residency the best choice? As a quite experienced researcher I would rather continue in industry or pharmacogenomics (seems being a good combo PharmD/PhD). Residency is clearly a clinical experience. Do I really need it for the industry? Do you see any potential good way to follow for my case? Thanks a lot!

aceacar1 said:

Here is the case:
Got a BSc in Biochemistry (Europe), a BSc in Pharmacy (Europe), a PhD in Molecular Genetics (Europe) and came in US as a postdoctoral fellow. I did here 4 years of fellowship, published 10 papers and decided that PhDs are starving comparing to PharmDs . Same job is paid half if only having a PhD and not a PharmD (did you know??). Got admitted in PharmD program and about to graduate soon. Question: is residency the best choice? As a quite experienced researcher I would rather continue in industry or pharmacogenomics (seems being a good combo PharmD/PhD). Residency is clearly a clinical experience. Do I really need it for the industry? Do you see any potential good way to follow for my case? Thanks a lot!

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No!!! Don't bother w/ the residency b/c you are going the research/industry route. Normally I'd suggest considering a fellowship, but you already have accomplished that. The residency won't do any good in the sector of industry that you'd likely flourish in (i.e. basic/translational research). If I were you I would just network w/ current faculty members about possible connections in industry and/or a faculty position in academia until something in industry opens up. I'd only consider another fellowship as an absolute last resort to illustrate a further development of skills since receiving PharmD, but would figure you probably have already done that while in Pharmacy school (i.e. via additional publications and possible grantmanship). I'd really just network to see how you can get your foot in the door, but given your credential PharmD/PhD you'd definitely be able to find something in academia if industry isn't readily available.

Your reply helps me very much.
Somehow... I feel this way! The problem is that most of the faculty members that I discussed with advised me to go for a residency. During my recent rotation in one of the strongest research hospitals in US they advised me to go for a famous (read "highly recognized") residency experience before doing anything else. Indeed, they seem being open to accept me directly into a specialty residency (which is something) but I think that this doesn't enhance in anyway my future possibilities. Or I may really don't understand an important point.
Now you may understand how confused I am...

aceacar1 said:

Your reply helps me very much.
Somehow... I feel this way! The problem is that most of the faculty members that I discussed with advised me to go for a residency. During my recent rotation in one of the strongest research hospitals in US they advised me to go for a famous (read "highly recognized") residency experience before doing anything else. Indeed, they seem being open to accept me directly into a specialty residency (which is something) but I think that this doesn't enhance in anyway my future possibilities. Or I may really don't understand an important point.
Now you may understand how confused I am...

Click to expand...

I hear what you are saying, but I would stress two impt things:

1- Consider the source
2- Do what is best for you and do the "research (no pun intended) to figure out what is best for you as only you can decide.

1-Consider the source explanation...I am somewhat a skeptical person, but always try to be as objective as possible when giving advice. Most people precepting you on clinical rotations are in essence clinical faculty w/ some relationship w/ the local school of pharmacy (SOP). Secondly if they are paid by the university (vs honorarium w/ clinical assistant/associate faculty) they may run a residency program via the local SOP and a factor in their faculty promotion may(likely to benefit) from continued residency recruitment and filling of that residency slot (i.e. the scholarly activity portion of academic assessment). Therefore they may be advising you to do a residency program b/c of some other confouding purpose. If you are considering a program in a major academic medical center than the preceptor may be looking at as a yr of "cheap labor" and given your previous experiences you could probably do a lot of producing for minimal cost as a resident. Basically I'm not saying that all programs are like this, but just consider that people tend to advise people to do what they themselves did, but if you don't want to go in a similar path than the same route might not be applicable.

One argument that could be made would be comparing the PharmD/PhD vs MD/PhD. In the MD/PhD the argument is often whether or not the MD/PhD should still do residency training so they can practice medicine even though they may only want to do research. Usually the MD/PhD opts to still do residency training as a means to supplement salary, have a back up plan, and maintain marketability as the MD/PhD (w/ residency/license to practice medicine) typically makes more vs MD/PhD (w/o license/residency) for obvious reasons. I know this may seem a little odd of an argument, but I've actually heard it before.

The flip side of the argument is that you can't compare apples to oranges. You don't need residency training to take NAPLEX and pass the boards. Although this may change in the next 10yrs (?possibly?) the reality of today is that you don't need it to practice. So then ask yourself what would be the benefit of doing residency training, especially if you really want to go straight into industry?

I'd consider some indepent networking and trying to get some other advice prior to the one you've previously obtained. I'd consider the following organizations checking them out and/or seeing if they have some free listservs you can join for informational/networking purposes. What field of pharmacogenomics are you interested in (cardiology, oncology, psychiatry, etc.)

http://www.ispor.org/
(international society of pharmacoeconomics and outcomes research)

www.accp.com (American College of CLinical Pharmacy)
Since you are a soon to be PharmD I'd highly reccomend ACCP; and join and check out their list serv/PRN groups. The PK/PD listserv (via their PRNs (Practice and Research Networks http://www.accp.com/practice.php) tends to cover a lot of genomics issues. They also have a Pharmaceutical industry PRN. ACCP also offers various minisabattical programs/fellowships that you would probably be eligible given your training. Secondly also ACCP also has a Pharmacogenomics publication for CE credit which may be helpful in finding contacts or review credentials of the authors to see what they have done.

www.accp1.com ( Am. College of Clinical Pharmacology)

http://www.pharmacogenomicsociety.org/site/default.asp

I hope this helps. Feel free to keep the questions coming if you need some clarification.

This is from far the most objective advise. I'll research your suggestions, keep networking and be back soon. Thank you again!