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When do we give the tough news: Not everyone will be a succesfull pre-med
- Thread starter HumbleMD
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Lay off me, I'm starving.
not if you want to get into her pants 😀 just kidding.
I think its better not to tell anyone they cant do something. That's not the American way. They will figure it out on there own....
E
Eric Lindros
Its not your job to advise her. If she isn't smart enought to figure out that her struggles with science now are simply not going to get her into medical school, then she probably shouldn't be applying anyway.
I guess what I am saying is, I highly doubt someone who can speak five languages is unaware of her own struggle. You telling her is not going to make a difference. She is either going to keep pushing forward or realize its time to move to something else.
But go ahead and advise her if you really want to. You only risk hurting her feelings.
B
BeatrixKiddo
Telling her she can't do it could either crush her self esteem or piss her off and make her work harder.
Or you can say "you're probably too stupid to get into med school" then laugh and say just kdding.
Or you can say "you're probably too stupid to get into med school" then laugh and say just kdding.
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She does look to me as both a tutor, advisor, and friend, and that's why this is difficult. But seriously, I'm usually quite the optimist, but there are definitely times to be a realist - the koombayah attitude of "Don't worry about your 1.0 GPA, you can do a post-bac!) on SDN is sometimes a little too rosy.
I always thought that being a good friend and advisor is knowing when to say hard things.
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You are a dirty bastard who is probably addicted to porn. Please return to those sites for your salacious commentary.
I think that it can be approached in a sensitive way. Sometimes the socratic method works well (Have you thought that your struggles with O-chem might be a sampling of similiar struggles to come in medical school?). But however you approach it, it should be in the spirit of friendly advice and not the condescension of divine revelation. That is, if people want to try and try and try, that's their business, but they should be informed about the odds. There are not enough spots for everyone to go to medical school, even for those on this site. But that doesn't mean they can't work in healthcare and it doesn't mean they've failed in any sense.
And in the case that you've described, I think a conversation could be beneficial because perhaps she hasn't realized the situation. I could draw an analogy with someone I was working with in a foreign language. He and I are both non-native high level speakers. Before I started working with him (we were interviewing and talking with immigrants), he had been working there for six or more months. When I started working with him, I noticed he was saying a word wrong. It was an unusual word that doesn't come up in very many contexts, but he was destroying it almost beyond recognition, but had figured he was saying it right because not once, in any of the conversations he had had, did anyone (native or non-native) tell him that he was saying it wrong. When I mentioned it, he was grateful (after looking it up, of course) and never said it wrong again.
Likewise, I know that I had no conception of many of the realities of medical school applications or doctoring when I started this process. And I had many misconceptions. Perhaps the best service you can render this girl (or someone else in a similar position) is the benefit of perspective. After that, they are entitled to make their own decisions, but it could end up saving them a lot of time, money, and worry.
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We are all naturally very optimistic in this country. I don't think that is a problem, but we fail to understand that there are both highs and lows as part of life. I don't think most of us will truly understand that unless we go through a dark period in life or experience the death of our patients.
I do think we need to be a little less direct in certain cases. There are indirect ways to help people out who are not cut out for medicine. Encouraging the person to look at other options in indirect ways will be much better than saying, "You are an idiot and suck at life. Go kill yourself or work at McDonald's."
I do think we need to be a little less direct in certain cases. There are indirect ways to help people out who are not cut out for medicine. Encouraging the person to look at other options in indirect ways will be much better than saying, "You are an idiot and suck at life. Go kill yourself or work at McDonald's."
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True story about how my aunt became a professor:
She had this prof during undergrad whom she HATED, and one day, while she had no idea of what she was going to do after her program finished, she ran into him and he asked what she was going to do. She said "I dunno, some job." He said "Of course. YOU couldn't do a master's program!"
She was pissed. She studied her ass off and went and did a master's program.
During her master's program, she ran into the same prof. He asked her "Oh, so now that you're doing a master's program, what do you think you're going to do after the program is over with?" "I don't know, maybe X job." "Of course. YOU couldn't do a doctorate!!"
She got the doctorate. And then found herself naturally drawn to being a prof, herself.
She had this prof during undergrad whom she HATED, and one day, while she had no idea of what she was going to do after her program finished, she ran into him and he asked what she was going to do. She said "I dunno, some job." He said "Of course. YOU couldn't do a master's program!"
She was pissed. She studied her ass off and went and did a master's program.
During her master's program, she ran into the same prof. He asked her "Oh, so now that you're doing a master's program, what do you think you're going to do after the program is over with?" "I don't know, maybe X job." "Of course. YOU couldn't do a doctorate!!"
She got the doctorate. And then found herself naturally drawn to being a prof, herself.
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True story about how my aunt became a professor:
She had this prof during undergrad whom she HATED, and one day, while she had no idea of what she was going to do after her program finished, she ran into him and he asked what she was going to do. She said "I dunno, some job." He said "Of course. YOU couldn't do a master's program!"
She was pissed. She studied her ass off and went and did a master's program.
During her master's program, she ran into the same prof. He asked her "Oh, so now that you're doing a master's program, what do you think you're going to do after the program is over with?" "I don't know, maybe X job." "Of course. YOU couldn't do a doctorate!!"
She got the doctorate. And then found herself naturally drawn to being a prof, herself.
That's exactly like my instructor for one of my classes this semester. She grew up with teachers that told her she would never go to college. She went to college then went on to get her masters.
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Want to be dingus of the year? Then tell her.
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Yeah, but I'd rather be a supportive, but realistic friend than the condescending jerk who keeps doubting her.True story about how my aunt became a professor:
She had this prof during undergrad whom she HATED, and one day, while she had no idea of what she was going to do after her program finished, she ran into him and he asked what she was going to do. She said "I dunno, some job." He said "Of course. YOU couldn't do a master's program!"
She was pissed. She studied her ass off and went and did a master's program.
During her master's program, she ran into the same prof. He asked her "Oh, so now that you're doing a master's program, what do you think you're going to do after the program is over with?" "I don't know, maybe X job." "Of course. YOU couldn't do a doctorate!!"
She got the doctorate. And then found herself naturally drawn to being a prof, herself.
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Tell her with how she is right now, she can't do it. But then give her a plan to follow, and then it's up to her. That's what my premed advisor did for me 2 years ago. Told me flat out to my face I wasn't going to make it. Then she gave me a plan to follow and I followed it.
Will Smith said:
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Jeez, calm down and get through a med school application season before you doll out advice about the realities of it. I really do think there are times when we have to deliver difficult news or advice. I'm just trying to figure out when and how.
I'm not going to craft an eloquent argument here. I'd just like to say that I think, for her benefit, you should ask her, gently, why she wants to go into medicine when she has such amazing talents in other areas.
E
Eric Lindros
So your telling me she has no idea or no concept of what it takes to be accepted, along with no concept of how difficult medical school is? She has no idea about average GPA, MCAT, and the number of applicants?
If this is the case (which I doubt) then by all means be her advisor and saving grace. Let her know what the deal is. However, I really doubt she is that dumb and I'm sure you aren't going to be the least but of help, besides coming across as arrogant.
I don't think you are giving her enough credit.
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She will figure it out on her own without your paternalism.
RB
RB
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Thank you for sound, supportive advice. Much better tha the anger and bitterness that seems be plaguing the boards these days.
Sounds like a good plan.
To others - geez, go take an upper or something. I guess you don't have friendships where you actually value others' opinions besides your own. The Hedonism and egotism is ridiculous these days.
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Its very hard to deal with this type of situation, i know. from personal experience, im one of the biology and chemistry tutors at my college, and i get a continual flow of pre-med people who cant even balance equations or get the stages mitosis right...u gotta just take it in stride, do what you are told to do (which in this case is teach the subject to them) and keep your mouth shut, they will figure it out themselves.
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You are just the type of person that SDN does NOT need. First of all, yes, having a "can-do" attitude is a very American way of thinking. But you know what? Optimism trumps pessimism every time. Not to sound like a flag-waving jingoist, but that is the foundation this country is BUILT upon. That has helped millions go from rags to riches. Uneducated to educated. Anything can happen. Like other posters have said, it would be one thing if she had a mental or physical disability that made it impossible for her to be a doctor. But I highly doubt someone who is that talented in the piano and can speak five languages lacks the mental capacity to become an MD. She's taken 1 Orgo course and is struggling (on top of other heavy pre-med courses). Perhaps she hasn't had enough time to build the right skills for this type of class yet. Or perhaps it's other factors in her life. Or perhaps it is "friends" like you who are undercutting her self esteem and pushing her into a defeatist attitude towards pre-med activities. Don't underestimate the power of self-confidence: it can make you or break you.
Furthermore, what right do you have at all to tell your friend she's not cut out to be an MD? You are there to SUPPORT her, not to lecture her or tell her what she can and can't do. If she looks to you for advice or support, then fine, tell her your opinion. But you don't know everything going on in her life. You have no authority whatsoever to make a judgment call on this.
I realize you're only trying to help your friend and that you mean well. But frankly, I think it's really disappointing that someone who calls himself "HumbleMD" has the arrogance to assume he knows better than his friend what she's destined for. Telling her she's not "cut out" for medicine is just giving her an easy out. You're condescending to assume that she will take your advice, shrug, and say, "Yep, my friends helped me realize that I'm just not the medical type even though I really wanted it." It takes all the responsibility off her. If you REALLY want to help her, then support her in her studies- but tell the truth when she asks you. And what other posters, like neom3x11 have said, is sound, helpful advice as well. I'm not bitter, or angry... I just think you seriously need to reconsider your attitude towards premeds and medicine.
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There is no need for me to get through anything. You simply do not make yourself look like an arrogant know-it-all by telling a "friend" that she is not fit for med school. I think you wouldn't like to be told that, so keep your trap shut. That's my $0.02
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I think there are other ways off letting a friend know that there are other options rather than being an MD. My girlfriend went from pre-med, to pre-pharmacy, to pre-nursing, too pre-pharmacy, and to everything in between. I support her with whatever decision she makes and I am critical of her sometimes when she isn't studying. It doesn't help, because her parents are also critical of her. So I think the best thing to do is just support a friend no matter what they do and give positive reinforcement when they do well. You can mention what else is out there, but I don't think it is right to say you can't do something.
You can also try to help her figure out what she likes about science and medicine, and try to work with it that way. I hated ochem passionately when I took them in college- and put in just enough effort the night before tests and assignments to get Cs in the two ochems- But somehow pulled off A's in the lab- because the applied stuff made sense to me but I never took the time to learn all the initial concepts of valence shells and electronegativity- so drawing mechanisms was always a matter of guessing. It may not make sense to her right now- especially if she's not mastering the basics.
The other thing is that med school can sometimes seem really far away when you're in orgo. She may just not be wholeheartedly applying herself to it now- despite the consequences down the line. Give her some time- don't confront her- its not your place- and you may not really have the whole story on why she is not excelling...
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There's always the Caribbean!
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So yeah, you got into med school, you could have had an easier time in your courses and all the things you want. You can be her friend, her mentor, even her sister or brother, but who in the heck are you in this world to tell someone "X" thing might not be for them? No one dude, you aint nothing but yourself, thats it...Just let her found out herself, you never know when someone can surprise you and at the end, she can be more succesful then you.. The world is a small place with many surprises for all of us.
Ed
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Well put. Your jumping isn't going to help anything.
I've actually started a thread or two on a similar subject. As a TA for Chem I, Chem II, and O chem, and a tutor for all of the intro level science courses at my college, I've had about 500 students over the past year or two. I've had several people write scathing personal attacks (personal messages to tell me what a bad person I was!) because I questioned the equipoteniality of every student to be a doctor.
After much consideration, I decided that, no, not everyone can be a doctor. I think it's a fact. I don't believe that a severely mentally disabled person can be a doctor. I don't believe a mildly disabled person could be a doctor. And because I believe that intelligence, talent, and competence lies on a spectrum, I don't believe that anyone without a disability could be a doctor, just like I don't believe that any non-physically disabled person could be a successful athlete. As a professional singer, I saw a lot of hopefuls get their dreams dashed brutally after going through 4 years of school (over 2K hours of practice time) with everyone falsely praising them. They had to learn new skills, get other jobs, and many of them felt like they had wasted part of their lives because no one told them the truth.
However! I don't believe that I have a special place in the world to tell my students, my peers or my friends what to do with their lives or what they are qualified to do. I do my job as well as I can; I try to be supportive. That being said, there are a lot of times in my life when I wished that people who cared about me sat me down and told me the truth. There are also a lot of times when I wish I could have found things out for myself. I think that there are going to be a lot of opinions on this thread, as there usually are on a topic like this because people passionately believe, at least in theory, that anyone can do anything. But the fact of the matter is that we don't know you, your friend, or nuances of your relationship with her. If you genuinely feel that it would benefit her to tactfully express your concern, good luck to you. It's a hard thing to bring up anyone's shortcomings.
After much consideration, I decided that, no, not everyone can be a doctor. I think it's a fact. I don't believe that a severely mentally disabled person can be a doctor. I don't believe a mildly disabled person could be a doctor. And because I believe that intelligence, talent, and competence lies on a spectrum, I don't believe that anyone without a disability could be a doctor, just like I don't believe that any non-physically disabled person could be a successful athlete. As a professional singer, I saw a lot of hopefuls get their dreams dashed brutally after going through 4 years of school (over 2K hours of practice time) with everyone falsely praising them. They had to learn new skills, get other jobs, and many of them felt like they had wasted part of their lives because no one told them the truth.
However! I don't believe that I have a special place in the world to tell my students, my peers or my friends what to do with their lives or what they are qualified to do. I do my job as well as I can; I try to be supportive. That being said, there are a lot of times in my life when I wished that people who cared about me sat me down and told me the truth. There are also a lot of times when I wish I could have found things out for myself. I think that there are going to be a lot of opinions on this thread, as there usually are on a topic like this because people passionately believe, at least in theory, that anyone can do anything. But the fact of the matter is that we don't know you, your friend, or nuances of your relationship with her. If you genuinely feel that it would benefit her to tactfully express your concern, good luck to you. It's a hard thing to bring up anyone's shortcomings.
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ignoring most of the posts, i think if she really wants to pursue med y not, its true not everyone is cut out to become a doctor (myself included), but if we put in the effort, maybe just maybe some one will smile upon us. now if your friend is not putting in effort her self, well that gives rise to a problem
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lol, hey now, I always kept forgetting the stages of mitosis, and I didn't do so hot in gen chem either.
But that doesn't mean that I was incapable of it, I ended up studying up on chem and it was real easy once I figured out the few things I wasn't getting.
Anyways, especially with a tough class like orgo, sometimes you just gotta give people another shot.
Now, if she actually bombed physics and gen chem even after trying really hard, then maybe it's a problem. But if she managed to do ok in those classes, I'd give her a shot at doing orgo again.
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as a masters candidate in chemistry and chemical biology who's TA'ed many intro chemistry courses (both general, inorganic, and organic), and as one has seen my share of students, i definately think that it is NOT ok for you to tell someone else that she is not cut out for medical school. as much as i love chemistry, double stereo-differentiating aldol reactions are worthless when it comes to caring for patients.
i have had the opportunity to teach an extension school class (for post-baccs), and many of the students there are much older than me, and have so much more clinical experience than me. i have seen people who have done significant NGO work in third-world countries struggle to remember the minutiae of electrochemistry. as a current applicant, i am constantly aware of how much dedication these older students have. in some ways, they are far more prepared for medicine than I am.
i really think that there's a lot more to being a healer than how smart you are. while medicine is firmly rooted in the sciences, the delivery of healthcare is so much more. anyway, this is just a topic that i feel really personal about, since I really feel for the students who try so hard to aspire towards a profession that inspires them!
i have had the opportunity to teach an extension school class (for post-baccs), and many of the students there are much older than me, and have so much more clinical experience than me. i have seen people who have done significant NGO work in third-world countries struggle to remember the minutiae of electrochemistry. as a current applicant, i am constantly aware of how much dedication these older students have. in some ways, they are far more prepared for medicine than I am.
i really think that there's a lot more to being a healer than how smart you are. while medicine is firmly rooted in the sciences, the delivery of healthcare is so much more. anyway, this is just a topic that i feel really personal about, since I really feel for the students who try so hard to aspire towards a profession that inspires them!
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I second eternalrage's opinion/suggestion.
I have a friend in a similar situation. She asked me our first semester in college if I thought she could make it to Med School. I told her "yes", because at the time I believed she could. Since then, my opinion on the matter has changed. She has the raw material to make it, I just don't see the drive and passion there.
I've kept my mouth shut for now. I'll probably keep it shut for another semester. After all, she could just be having a rough start in college. If she continues, I'll probably have to pull her aside and tell her just what eternalrage said. "I really, really want to see you make it, but if you keep going like this, Med School is not going to happen."
I'd rather lose a friend than know that I sat idly by and let a friend piss away their chances at med School because I didn't have the guts to say "You've ****ed up and are continuing to do so. It's time to start getting back on track."
And to the comment on a person speaking 5 languages knowing what it takes and knowing where they stand; I think this is a bad argument. I don't doubt that this girl nor my friend nor any other pre-meds lack the knowledge that med-school is difficult to get into; that some people don't make it.
There is a difference between knowing and understanding. Teenagers all know they can die, but they are infamous for not understanding it. For thinking they are invincible and that bad things can't happen to them. A young pre-med student is no difference. It can be difficult to wrap your head around the idea that failure is a possibility...
Edit: I think the key difference between the best route and the worst route here is making sure you tell the person that it is the path they are taking now that may prevent them from entering Medicine NOT their own abilities. It's not that they CAN'T, but that they are currently holding themselves back...
I have a friend in a similar situation. She asked me our first semester in college if I thought she could make it to Med School. I told her "yes", because at the time I believed she could. Since then, my opinion on the matter has changed. She has the raw material to make it, I just don't see the drive and passion there.
I've kept my mouth shut for now. I'll probably keep it shut for another semester. After all, she could just be having a rough start in college. If she continues, I'll probably have to pull her aside and tell her just what eternalrage said. "I really, really want to see you make it, but if you keep going like this, Med School is not going to happen."
I'd rather lose a friend than know that I sat idly by and let a friend piss away their chances at med School because I didn't have the guts to say "You've ****ed up and are continuing to do so. It's time to start getting back on track."
And to the comment on a person speaking 5 languages knowing what it takes and knowing where they stand; I think this is a bad argument. I don't doubt that this girl nor my friend nor any other pre-meds lack the knowledge that med-school is difficult to get into; that some people don't make it.
There is a difference between knowing and understanding. Teenagers all know they can die, but they are infamous for not understanding it. For thinking they are invincible and that bad things can't happen to them. A young pre-med student is no difference. It can be difficult to wrap your head around the idea that failure is a possibility...
Edit: I think the key difference between the best route and the worst route here is making sure you tell the person that it is the path they are taking now that may prevent them from entering Medicine NOT their own abilities. It's not that they CAN'T, but that they are currently holding themselves back...
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I think it's cruel to assume you should crush someone's dream under the appearance of being 'kind'. The admissions process will give applicants the answer they need - even if it's not what they want to hear. Also, there is more than one way to skin a cat if there are a couple of bad grades on a transcript (overseas M.D., D.O.) etc.
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Very good points. I was similarly wondering why others thought that her brilliant language ability meant she was fit for pre-med classes. As others have posted, yeah, there's a lot more going on that hasn't been discussed, so I'm shocked to see how many conclusions are being made (this was a second attempt at Orgo, and other science courses are always taken on a light load). Thanks again for the sounds advice. It's very clear who has a sound maturity level here and who doesn't.
While I totally agree with your sentiment, I still feel like a certain degree of logical skills are necessary to be a good doctor. I want a compassionate physician, but I don't want him/her to kill me with the wrong diagnosis because they couldn't figure out what my symptoms meant!
E
Eric Lindros
No offense Humble, but the title, first post, and entire concept of this thread are extremely egotistical and part of the reason I disagree in the first place.
Your original question can basically stripped down to the following: "Should I tell my friend not to bother applying to med school because she has no realistic chance."
Now the fact that she doesn't have a good chance may very well be true, and while your intentions may be good, I was trying to suggest that they probably aren't. The fact that you started a thread suggesting that we more successful pre-meds are somehow qualified to guide the "poor, less fortunate" and apparently delusional applicants who can't see the facts themselves is egotistical in istelf. I just don't buy that. I think most people have enough common sense to understand their situations, and having someone tell them is simply a slap in the face, not help.
Most importantly, how many people would honestly take that kind of advice from others? I know for a fact NONE of my closest friends would allow me to convince them of such a major decision. Just another reason that it's simply a slap in the face and not good advice.
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Nah, I'm going to be winning that award.
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universe. Other than us, no one much cares. We get very full of ourselves and think we are very important, but it is really very silly if you think about the Big Bang and eternity. Humble be humble.
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It's not anyone's place to pass judgement and tell another whether they will or will not be successfully at their chosen path. None of us possess any special insight into another's mind as to what their strengths/weaknesses are or what holds them back from their own potential. All we can do is help those we care about to make their own decisions.
While it's not your call to decide her dream, you can help in the steps she takes in striving towards that dream. Sit down and find out why your friend is having so much trouble with her science courses. Help her figure out a game plan(better study habits, more tutoring, etc) for tackling ochem and whatever courses left and go from there.
While it's not your call to decide her dream, you can help in the steps she takes in striving towards that dream. Sit down and find out why your friend is having so much trouble with her science courses. Help her figure out a game plan(better study habits, more tutoring, etc) for tackling ochem and whatever courses left and go from there.
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If she's as smart as you say she is, she'll know when to throw in the towel. If you are as good of a friend as you claim, you will continue to help and support her. If she asks for your opinion, you can give it, if she's not asking for your opinion of her chances, you shouldn't try to butt in to make the decision for her.
No, not everyone can be a doctor, but rarely is anyone qualified to judge who is and who is not qualified. Therefore, 'tis better to keep your mouth shut and be a good friend then to offer up unwanted advice. 🙂
No, not everyone can be a doctor, but rarely is anyone qualified to judge who is and who is not qualified. Therefore, 'tis better to keep your mouth shut and be a good friend then to offer up unwanted advice. 🙂
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Theoretically any student who has a normal level of cognitive ability can pass any class, but not all have the ability to get an A in any random class (dont try to push theory as a reality in this type of topic). I'm a biology tutor as well as biology major and have seen many students who are history, English, music, art, and Spanish majors really struggle with biology because they don't understand it. A HUGE reason for them not understanding the material is not from a lack of hard work or being stupid students (get of your high horses
.hard work does not always equate to passing with an A or B
a lot of the hard work comes down to the start of learning a new language), it all comes down to previous exposure. Most students who don't major in science don't have any interests in science and could care less about scientific material. Just like a lot of science students could care less about art, music, and English majors (you know you don't care for those majors, just admit it) and would struggle to get an A if they had no previous exposure to art or music. English only becomes a trouble when its a person's second language.
With that being said, not all students can take a math class and pass it with an A by taking it 3 semesters straight.
What many naive and ignorant pre-meds dont understand is that a lot of the cognitive ability a person has by the time they reach high school, college, and adult hood is already set during development in the womb too 3 years old.
Your frontal lobe is not fully developed until ~21 years of age. This means that many young adults and teenagers dont have the ability to (with some variance in the population obviously) understand natures complex issues, be well organized, synthesize complex issues, etc.
I might not have the ability to have the best exam scores in the class, but I can blow any student in any of my science classes out of the water with how much more I know then them about scientific topics that wont be tested on the next exam. That is because in the long run those exam scores are meaningless after admissions to a graduate program has taken place and that outside of the next exam knowledge will take me a lot further in my career then getting an A on the next exam.
With that being said, not all students can take a math class and pass it with an A by taking it 3 semesters straight.
What many naive and ignorant pre-meds dont understand is that a lot of the cognitive ability a person has by the time they reach high school, college, and adult hood is already set during development in the womb too 3 years old.
Your frontal lobe is not fully developed until ~21 years of age. This means that many young adults and teenagers dont have the ability to (with some variance in the population obviously) understand natures complex issues, be well organized, synthesize complex issues, etc.
I might not have the ability to have the best exam scores in the class, but I can blow any student in any of my science classes out of the water with how much more I know then them about scientific topics that wont be tested on the next exam. That is because in the long run those exam scores are meaningless after admissions to a graduate program has taken place and that outside of the next exam knowledge will take me a lot further in my career then getting an A on the next exam.
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- Pre-Medical
I wouldn't say, "You will never be a doctor." However, it may be a good idea to inform her of the statistics describing the competition for medical school seats. Based on that, she can make her own decisions. If she doesn't take the news well, it's understandable. However, if she ends up wasting her college career chasing a pipe dream and expecting to get into Hopkins with grotesquely sub-par grades, you're doing her a great disservice by letting her waste her time.
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My premed advisor told most of our class that they wouldn't make it into med school, and honestly, most of them didn't. A lot of them didn't apply after they took the MCAT, but up to that time, they thought they were going to med school. One girl in particular couldn't pass gen chem II. She was very irritated at the advisor's repeated attempts to advise her against applying. She ended up transfering to a different school and I have no idea what has happened since then. In my class of (I don't know, 12?) premed students at my school (small school) Only three of us are in med school today. Me, and two girls that did better in their classes than me.
I don't think I would personally tell a friend they shouldn't apply. I might try to feel them out to see what they think their chances are, and definitely encourage them to do whatever they can to get their application up to par. Most likely their advisors have already told them their chances and it will be more real if the MCAT doesn't go well.
I do, however, think that not everyone is cut out for med school. I'm not sure that I'm cut out for med school, now that I'm in the brunt of it.
I do think that everyone has their own talents and that no particular talent is better than another. I can't write and I'm terrible at Math. I'm also not particularly creative. I'll never be able to be a successful writer, mathematician, artist, interior designer, etc.
I didn't feel that the OP was particularly egotistical because he mentioned some fantastic qualities about his friend.
To those who says that everyone can make it into med school.... what happens to the person who goes to med school determined to be an orthopedic surgeon, or an ophthamologist - they get to their M4 year, and don't make it. What an incredible dissapointment! What they want to do with their lives, what they've worked for forever, and bam, they can't do it. Wouldn't it have been better for them to realize earlier that there is a possibility they won't make it and to have a second plan? I think its ok to be realistic sometimes - and this is one of those times.
My motto is to hope for the best and plan for the worst. In a way, I am both an optomist and a realist, if that makes sense.
I would never encourage someone to embrace failure, but I think its ok to know that it is possible to fail and that doesn't make you a failure. One of the things that is very difficult for first year med students is the fact that they struggle and are no longer the best. Individuals that were A students are having trouble passing. Theres a thread over in the allopathic forum concerning med student suicides. Apparently someone's classmate committed suicide right after their first year final. Med school has 3X the suicide rate of other institutions. Some of this may be due to our inability to accept failure. We all need to realize that we will fail at something one time or another and that is ok.
I don't think I would personally tell a friend they shouldn't apply. I might try to feel them out to see what they think their chances are, and definitely encourage them to do whatever they can to get their application up to par. Most likely their advisors have already told them their chances and it will be more real if the MCAT doesn't go well.
I do, however, think that not everyone is cut out for med school. I'm not sure that I'm cut out for med school, now that I'm in the brunt of it.
I do think that everyone has their own talents and that no particular talent is better than another. I can't write and I'm terrible at Math. I'm also not particularly creative. I'll never be able to be a successful writer, mathematician, artist, interior designer, etc.
I didn't feel that the OP was particularly egotistical because he mentioned some fantastic qualities about his friend.
To those who says that everyone can make it into med school.... what happens to the person who goes to med school determined to be an orthopedic surgeon, or an ophthamologist - they get to their M4 year, and don't make it. What an incredible dissapointment! What they want to do with their lives, what they've worked for forever, and bam, they can't do it. Wouldn't it have been better for them to realize earlier that there is a possibility they won't make it and to have a second plan? I think its ok to be realistic sometimes - and this is one of those times.
My motto is to hope for the best and plan for the worst. In a way, I am both an optomist and a realist, if that makes sense.
I would never encourage someone to embrace failure, but I think its ok to know that it is possible to fail and that doesn't make you a failure. One of the things that is very difficult for first year med students is the fact that they struggle and are no longer the best. Individuals that were A students are having trouble passing. Theres a thread over in the allopathic forum concerning med student suicides. Apparently someone's classmate committed suicide right after their first year final. Med school has 3X the suicide rate of other institutions. Some of this may be due to our inability to accept failure. We all need to realize that we will fail at something one time or another and that is ok.
Yeah, the "I hate/can't do/don't understand science, but I want to go to med school" thing has always confused me...I have actually heard premeds say "but it's okay, after the prereqs there's no more science". Um....?
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I think you are doing your friends a favor when you are honest with them about things they don't want to hear. They may need to hear it. They will either re-evaluate their direction or rededicate themselves. Or they will just call you a jerk and find out later.
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Once again, the current premedical-medical system has precipitated this exclusionary mindset based on the wrong premise. Here are the indisputable facts which all practicing physicians will agree on after going through what we're all currently experiencing.
1) You don't have to be brilliant to be a doctor. You don't even have to be really smart.
2) BUT, you can't be a ***** and be a doctor. More importantly, you have to be able to think on your feet and be observant. This is where the current model fails to prepare students. Memorization is stressed in many instances, but critical thinking skills are neglected. This is why many have high GPAs but low MCATs. Although the MCAT is imperfect, it gauges one's ability to think on their feet moreso than rote memorization.
3) Performance in Organic Chemistry, Physics, and Calculus is almost completely irrelevant. Performance in these courses does not have anything more than a remote correlation to a future spent in medicine. They are only important because the AAMC (and the AACOM) has decided that these are good rites of passage.
If your friend is struggling through Ochem, it has nothing to do with the physician she has the potential to become. Go ahead, ask physicians how useful their organic chem training has been...
What is important is that she may currently lack the study skills and dedication which are essential for the first two years of didactics training, which is the only issue you should address with her.
I don't think that bc she can't do Ochem that she can't become an excellent physician. The concepts in medical school aren't hard, there's just a huge volume that has to be taken in within a relatively short amount of time. Those of us who can't take in information as required will undoubtably fail out. The fact is, however, that VERY few fail out of medical school. This is not bc medical school admissions is perfect... it is because most people of moderately high intellgence and fairly good work ethic can handle the training, albeit extremely painful.
1) You don't have to be brilliant to be a doctor. You don't even have to be really smart.
2) BUT, you can't be a ***** and be a doctor. More importantly, you have to be able to think on your feet and be observant. This is where the current model fails to prepare students. Memorization is stressed in many instances, but critical thinking skills are neglected. This is why many have high GPAs but low MCATs. Although the MCAT is imperfect, it gauges one's ability to think on their feet moreso than rote memorization.
3) Performance in Organic Chemistry, Physics, and Calculus is almost completely irrelevant. Performance in these courses does not have anything more than a remote correlation to a future spent in medicine. They are only important because the AAMC (and the AACOM) has decided that these are good rites of passage.
If your friend is struggling through Ochem, it has nothing to do with the physician she has the potential to become. Go ahead, ask physicians how useful their organic chem training has been...
What is important is that she may currently lack the study skills and dedication which are essential for the first two years of didactics training, which is the only issue you should address with her.
I don't think that bc she can't do Ochem that she can't become an excellent physician. The concepts in medical school aren't hard, there's just a huge volume that has to be taken in within a relatively short amount of time. Those of us who can't take in information as required will undoubtably fail out. The fact is, however, that VERY few fail out of medical school. This is not bc medical school admissions is perfect... it is because most people of moderately high intellgence and fairly good work ethic can handle the training, albeit extremely painful.
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- Pre-Medical
Humble, in the spirit of SDN and the holidays, here's my advice. Do not crush her dreams or even give her reason for concern UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Tell her that withdrawing from a class over and over will make no bad impression on the professor or department (hence on her eventual LOR's), or on ADCOM's who see the long string of W's. Tell her that a 20% in OChem really isn't that bad and plenty of people get into medical school with a 1.4 science GPA taken over the course of 6 credit semesters. As you and her make smores and sing kumbaya around the campfire, remind her that stellar EC's can make up for a 10 on the MCATs and that she should never give up or pursue something she's ridiculously good at and naturally gifted in like the ability to learn languages.
When she fails to get into medical school the first time around (which couldn't be related to having taken OChem 14 times), encourage her to do a post-bacc. When that still isn't enough to make up for her 10 MCAT, tell her to do another post-bacc. And another. And another. And another. Eventually when the times comes, tell her that perhaps obtaining a world record 47th post-bacc degree will impress at least one medical school enough to admit her (assuming they can get over the fact that she has lived in a nursing home for 3 years and can't feed or dress herself because she is, afterall, 103 years old).
It is not your right to crush her dreams, to tell her she'd better get on the ball, or to tell her that the W's and poor grades may start to create a bit of a problem. You stupid arrogant jerk.
When she fails to get into medical school the first time around (which couldn't be related to having taken OChem 14 times), encourage her to do a post-bacc. When that still isn't enough to make up for her 10 MCAT, tell her to do another post-bacc. And another. And another. And another. Eventually when the times comes, tell her that perhaps obtaining a world record 47th post-bacc degree will impress at least one medical school enough to admit her (assuming they can get over the fact that she has lived in a nursing home for 3 years and can't feed or dress herself because she is, afterall, 103 years old).
It is not your right to crush her dreams, to tell her she'd better get on the ball, or to tell her that the W's and poor grades may start to create a bit of a problem. You stupid arrogant jerk.
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- Pre-Medical
anyways can she be my gf, lol i want to learn piano and speak 3-4 more human languages
