Psy D vs. MSW

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h2oLillies

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Hi All,
I posted this in the other forum but thought I might as well post it here too.

I am a new member and have learned a lot by reading all your comments. I am currently finishing my MA in general psychology at Stony Brook University. Although, I took doctoral level courses (there is no official MA degree offered), clinical courses like assessment/intervention were not an option to those not in the PhD program (I totally understand the reasoning for this). My interests are in psychopathology and parent-child relationships; I wish to become a child and family clinician and teach in the future.

Based on my interests and what I have heard/read from others, PsyDs and MSWs seem to be the best route. I have a pretty solid research background since I've been an RA for 4yrs and a GA for 2 but through my Master's experience I learned that I am more clinically oriented (that was the main reason I did the MA beforehand was to decide my interests and to get more teaching experience as a GA)

I applied to a few Psy D. programs and several clinical social work programs. I was accepted into Florida Institute of Technology's Psy D. program as well as NYU and Columbia's social work programs. I wanted to ask you all about your opinions on NYU's MSW program and Florida Tech if you have any (I seem to read much on Nova but not Florida Tech). I chose NYU from the rest of the MSWs because of their clinical focus, think this is a good fit?

I would also appreciate advice about pursuing a Psy D. versus a clinical MSW degree (LCSW with licensure) with my interests. For those of you with a Psy D, what made you choose the Psy D over other degrees such as the MSW? I know the biases and controversies behind each of these degrees but now that I have to choose between them, it is especially difficult.
Since you have graduated have you found any difficulty in finding jobs? Now that I have found my interests and have been accepted to these programs I am trying to weigh the pros and cons. It would be difficult for me to move so far away from home and attend Florida for the next 4-5yrs but I also don't want to face issues finding a job to get my supervision hours for the LCSW.

Any suggestions/comments would be great!!! (sorry for the lengthy post :) )
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h2oLillies said:
Hi All,
I posted this in the other forum but thought I might as well post it here too.

I am a new member and have learned a lot by reading all your comments. I am currently finishing my MA in general psychology at Stony Brook University. Although, I took doctoral level courses (there is no official MA degree offered), clinical courses like assessment/intervention were not an option to those not in the PhD program (I totally understand the reasoning for this). My interests are in psychopathology and parent-child relationships; I wish to become a child and family clinician and teach in the future.

Based on my interests and what I have heard/read from others, PsyDs and MSWs seem to be the best route. I have a pretty solid research background since I've been an RA for 4yrs and a GA for 2 but through my Master's experience I learned that I am more clinically oriented (that was the main reason I did the MA beforehand was to decide my interests and to get more teaching experience as a GA)

I applied to a few Psy D. programs and several clinical social work programs. I was accepted into Florida Institute of Technology's Psy D. program as well as NYU and Columbia's social work programs. I wanted to ask you all about your opinions on NYU's MSW program and Florida Tech if you have any (I seem to read much on Nova but not Florida Tech). I chose NYU from the rest of the MSWs because of their clinical focus, think this is a good fit?

I would also appreciate advice about pursuing a Psy D. versus a clinical MSW degree (LCSW with licensure) with my interests. For those of you with a Psy D, what made you choose the Psy D over other degrees such as the MSW? I know the biases and controversies behind each of these degrees but now that I have to choose between them, it is especially difficult.
Since you have graduated have you found any difficulty in finding jobs? Now that I have found my interests and have been accepted to these programs I am trying to weigh the pros and cons. It would be difficult for me to move so far away from home and attend Florida for the next 4-5yrs but I also don't want to face issues finding a job to get my supervision hours for the LCSW.

Any suggestions/comments would be great!!! (sorry for the lengthy post :) )
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I'm not on track for either an MSW or a Psy.D., but overall, I would say if you can afford to go for the Psy.D. it's a much better career move. A Psy.D. can fill most any position an MSW can fill, and has a much better shot at a decent salary (in my somewhat limited experience, MSWs do some of the most difficult work in psychological practice, while earning the least money).

As far as just finding a job regardless of the pay, however, I think your odds are probably about equal with both degrees.
 
Just be careful... both of those degrees may limit the kinds of teaching you can do (I don't know if you meant high school teaching, or University).
 
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I know a psychologist who went to Florida Tech for her Psy.D. She seemed to enjoy it and had positive things to say about it overall. I think they have concentrations in both child psychology and marriage and family therapy, which sounds to be right up your alley.

I would agree that a Psy.D. is probably the better option. I know many LCSWs, and almost all have told me that psychologists are better paid (even if doing the same work), and in many cases, have a better chance of getting into administration/supervisory roles.

For what it's worth, from the pictures I've seen, Melbourne looks like a BEAUTIFUL place. Not a bad place to be for 4-5 years ;)

Whatever you decide, best of luck!
 
Thanks so much everyone, very helpful comments/advice.

I guess part of my hesitation is because of: a) being far away from home and always having to take a flight instead of a drive over, b) the money factor, it is costly as you all well know, so I am hoping I will make it back without having to pay off loans all my life, c) the people attending seem to love it, the match rate seems fairly high and consistent (86%) yet no one really talks about the school's reputation but more about Nova's program which I heard was ehhh...even from faculty/students of Florida Tech, d) which may be most important, will I be successful at it? I guess this is just nerves talking but people have told me that I wouldn't have gotten accepted if admissions didn't think I was capable of doing it, I am just hoping that I will have a solid support network because emotionally it will be hard being away from a close-knit family. Part of me wants to stick with the NYU MSW route because of the closeness and like some of you stated, it will ultimately lead me in the same path with either degree ( private practice/teaching)

Any suggestions on how to deal??
 
RayneeDeigh said:
Just be careful... both of those degrees may limit the kinds of teaching you can do (I don't know if you meant high school teaching, or University).
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Good point, what I meant was like adjunct faculty. I have enjoyed my graduate assistanceships and would like to teach more in the future.
 
RayneeDeigh said:
Just be careful... both of those degrees may limit the kinds of teaching you can do (I don't know if you meant high school teaching, or University).
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Good point, what I meant was like adjunct faculty. I have enjoyed my graduate assistanceships and would like to teach more in the future.
 
I would be interested in knowing their criticisms of Nova... did they say anything specifically or just a general disliking?
 
lakewood said:
I would be interested in knowing their criticisms of Nova... did they say anything specifically or just a general disliking?
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The usual "money mills" type comments, and also that it is unfortunate the class size is rather large because students that they knew there did not get as much focused supervision as students from Florida Tech. I thought they were being biased but alas, many other professors in my school have commented along these lines.
 
h2oLillies said:
The usual "money mills" type comments, and also that it is unfortunate the class size is rather large because students that they knew there did not get as much focused supervision as students from Florida Tech. I thought they were being biased but alas, many other professors in my school have commented along these lines.
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Funding sucks, and large in-coming classes. They are cutting down on the incoming class over the next few years, so that should be good. The school is known for developing very competent clinicians, and their placement rate supports that (87% placement this past year, the stragglers that should have been cut dragged down the percentage)

I've had a great experience with supervision, on a weekly basis I get individual, group, and didactic training and supervision. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but my experiences have been great in this regard.

I looked at FIT, and it didn't fit what I needed, but I've heard decent things about the program.

THIS thread has my longer review of Nova.

-t
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I looked at FIT, and it didn't fit what I needed, but I've heard decent things about the program.

-t
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The funding sucks at FIT too actually, I know that PsyD are not known for their fabulous funding. But I have heard some positive things about the school and the faculty/students seemed happy when I spoke with them. Their match rates are fairly high as well (about 86%). Can you recommend anyone/anyplace to get more info about FIT? It seems that Nova is discussed all the time but nada on FIT! I want to make my decision already...I am starting to neglect my work because of all this thinking of schools. It is honestly on my mind 24/7! :confused:
 
h2oLillies said:
The funding sucks at FIT too actually, I know that PsyD are not known for their fabulous funding. But I have heard some positive things about the school and the faculty/students seemed happy when I spoke with them. Their match rates are fairly high as well (about 86%). Can you recommend anyone/anyplace to get more info about FIT? It seems that Nova is discussed all the time but nada on FIT! I want to make my decision already...I am starting to neglect my work because of all this thinking of schools. It is honestly on my mind 24/7! :confused:
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It sounds totally cheesy, but I've had a lot of luck by finding people on Myspace who go to (or went to) the school in question and messaging them to ask questions. Some ignore you, but some write back with really helpful comments.
 
I don't know much more about FIT, sorry! I had a friend graduate from their I/O program a couple years ago, and knew some clinical students, but lost touch with them a couple of years ago.

Melbourne isn't really a happening place, but it is outside of Orlando, so people can go there for some fun.

-t
 
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RayneeDeigh said:
It sounds totally cheesy, but I've had a lot of luck by finding people on Myspace who go to (or went to) the school in question and messaging them to ask questions. Some ignore you, but some write back with really helpful comments.
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Good point. I actually had some great luck with the social work programs at NYU and Columbia. Haven't found luck with any FIT students on myspace though. I have emailed some graduate students I met during interview and they have been helpful.

It's the ultimate decision of which degree is the best fit in the end that I am having problems with...
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I don't know much more about FIT, sorry! I had a friend graduate from their I/O program a couple years ago, and knew some clinical students, but lost touch with them a couple of years ago.

Melbourne isn't really a happening place, but it is outside of Orlando, so people can go there for some fun.

-t
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I have heard that many students go to Orlando and/or downtown Melbourne. I didn't have time to visit much of the surrounding areas outside of a stop to Walgreen's, my hotel, airport, and campus for the interview. Very unfortunate, I am considering to go down there again if I don't sway towards the MSW...
 
Anticip said:
I'm not on track for either an MSW or a Psy.D., but overall, I would say if you can afford to go for the Psy.D. it's a much better career move. A Psy.D. can fill most any position an MSW can fill, and has a much better shot at a decent salary (in my somewhat limited experience, MSWs do some of the most difficult work in psychological practice, while earning the least money).

As far as just finding a job regardless of the pay, however, I think your odds are probably about equal with both degrees.
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Perhaps PsyDs (or PhDs) can fill most any position an MSW can fill, but what strikes me is that an overwhelming percentage of clinical jobs are listed (eg, on Careerbuilder) for LCSWs or licensed counselors, and sometimes they include psychologists. Unfortunately, many places equate all of us. The doctorate doesn't always result in much higher salaries over the MSW(LCSW).
 
QPublic said:
Perhaps PsyDs (or PhDs) can fill most any position an MSW can fill, but what strikes me is that an overwhelming percentage of clinical jobs are listed (eg, on Careerbuilder) for LCSWs or licensed counselors, and sometimes they include psychologists. Unfortunately, many places equate all of us. The doctorate doesn't always result in much higher salaries over the MSW(LCSW).
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Clinical jobs are often not posted on a site like CareerBuilders, so it is tough to judge. I think it is one of those industries that thrives on word of mouth referrals.

I'd be really hesitant to accept a job at a place that does that doesn't differentiate, because it implies they don't see the different values each degree brings to the table. It sounds small, but the small things matter.

-t
 
I am going to buck the trend and say go for the MSW. I suppose there's a possibility that a PsyD might command you slightly more income down the road, but I don't think it would be a huge difference. With the three additional years of training (lost income--at 50k/year this would be 150k) and the three additional years of paying tuition (not sure how much it is, but let's say it's 25k/year-- that's another 75k), that's a total of 225k extra for a PsyD. I don't think the slight increase in income is going to overcome that (if you make 10k more, it would take 25 years!). Given your additional concern about being close to family, I think the MSW sounds like the best route for you. Columbia and NYU have great MSW programs. You'll get good training, perhaps better than at a mediocre PsyD program. There are many positions where PsyDs and MSWs are interchangeable.
 
psychanon said:
I am going to buck the trend and say go for the MSW. I suppose there's a possibility that a PsyD might command you slightly more income down the road, but I don't think it would be a huge difference. With the three additional years of training (lost income--at 50k/year this would be 150k) and the three additional years of paying tuition (not sure how much it is, but let's say it's 25k/year-- that's another 75k), that's a total of 225k extra for a PsyD. I don't think the slight increase in income is going to overcome that (if you make 10k more, it would take 25 years!).
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I think this is a really good point. For any unfunded program, it's incredibly important that you sit down, run the numbers, and imagine what your life will be like with that much debt. I'm sure a lot of us on this board have never had to deal with serious debt before (the private loans you'd most likely have to take out aren't like the warm and fuzzy Stafford loans we're use to), so it's probably also a good idea to talk with your parents or other "adults" to get their advice on whether it's worth it.
 
Jon Snow said:
FIT is just as much of a "money mill" as Nova. It's pure professional school. Crap.
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I think that's a tough judgment call to make. Professional schools have a place, and it's quite possible to get a great education at a school that doesn't have funding of its own.
 
RayneeDeigh said:
I think that's a tough judgment call to make. Professional schools have a place, and it's quite possible to get a great education at a school that doesn't have funding of its own.
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Jon has a well known dislike of anything that isn't a traditional PhD program, I was sorta surprised he took so long to post, typically it is like clockwork. :laugh:

-t
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Jon has a well known dislike of anything that isn't a traditional PhD program, I was sorta surprised he took so long to post, typically it is like clockwork. :laugh:

-t
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Heh. Well maybe he was off doing traditional PhD-type things. :D
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
:D

Haven't seen you around lately, figured that whole 'work thing' was keeping you busy.

-t
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hah well everyone has their own biases. Jon I am taking a wild guess here, but I am assuming that you dislike LCSWs as well???? :rolleyes:
 
psychanon said:
I am going to buck the trend and say go for the MSW. I suppose there's a possibility that a PsyD might command you slightly more income down the road, but I don't think it would be a huge difference. With the three additional years of training (lost income--at 50k/year this would be 150k) and the three additional years of paying tuition (not sure how much it is, but let's say it's 25k/year-- that's another 75k), that's a total of 225k extra for a PsyD. I don't think the slight increase in income is going to overcome that (if you make 10k more, it would take 25 years!). Given your additional concern about being close to family, I think the MSW sounds like the best route for you. Columbia and NYU have great MSW programs. You'll get good training, perhaps better than at a mediocre PsyD program. There are many positions where PsyDs and MSWs are interchangeable.

I lived in Melbourne (briefly). The beaches are lovely, but the town is pretty boring. "Downtown" Melbourne is basically a row of antique shops. It takes an hour to drive to Orlando, for the privilege of going to some lame resort club or bar like Pleasure Island or Jimmy Buffett's Margaritaville. It's not a terrible place, but it's no NYC.
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Great points, thank you! It's also a good thing to hear from someone that has actually lived in that area so I appreciate your response! Your breakdown was helpful and something I did consider. Its just annoying how easily I am swayed from one choice to another on daily basis...blahh! Mind if I ask what your degree is and what you do now?
 
h2oLillies said:
Great points, thank you! It's also a good thing to hear from someone that has actually lived in that area so I appreciate your response! Your breakdown was helpful and something I did consider. Its just annoying how easily I am swayed from one choice to another on daily basis...blahh! Mind if I ask what your degree is and what you do now?
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I'm a Ph.D. student in a clinical program. My program is research oriented, so I don't have any first-hand knowledge of either Psy.D's or MSWs (so take my advice with the appropriate grain of salt). I do have friends who have gone into MSW programs, and who have graduated and gotten great positions. Seeing their experiences really changed my perception of the degree. I now think (and others may disagree) that if someone is 100% sure that they want to do clinical work, going to a reputable MSW program is a better move than getting a mid-ling PsyD program. The thrill of being called doctor can't be worth all those years of debt and sweat. I am wary of going to just any MSW program, but places like Columbia and NYU should offer quality training in empirically driven methods.
 
Jon Snow said:
No. For one thing, it's a different field. Obviously, there are territory encroachment issues, but I think an lcsw is a more logical degree than a professional school.


I am quite familiar with FIT's program. . . not impressive. In fact, it's the program that formed all of my initial impressions of psyd programs and what compelled me to start posting on this board.
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Really huh, well good thing I joined this forum. I wanted more info on FIT because I haven't heard much about it but have heard great things about NYU's MSW (which I decided as my choice over Columbia because of its emphasis on clinical and greater offered tuition scholarship). If you could share some of the FIT info I'd really appreciate it. PM me if you'd like!
 
Have you considered getting the MSW (at NYU, about which I have heard only wonderful things), working in the field, and then considering a PhD (or DSW) in social work? I am a social worker who will enter a clinical psychology PhD program in the Fall, but my pursuing another degree does not mean that I devalued my social work experience. I think that you can get a decent job (bad pay, but that's no surprise) as a social worker, particularly if you are interested in working with children and families. For myself, I know that getting a clinical foundation and experience was crucial before I would have felt confident in a PhD program. It sounds like you are possibly in a different place than I was pre-grad school, but I guess this post is to say that (1) the PhD or DSW could be an option later if you want to return to school [or an institute, of course...New York has a ton] and (2) there is decent work to be had as a social worker.
 
phrenologist said:
Have you considered getting the MSW (at NYU, about which I have heard only wonderful things), working in the field, and then considering a PhD (or DSW) in social work? I am a social worker who will enter a clinical psychology PhD program in the Fall, but my pursuing another degree does not mean that I devalued my social work experience. I think that you can get a decent job (bad pay, but that's no surprise) as a social worker, particularly if you are interested in working with children and families. For myself, I know that getting a clinical foundation and experience was crucial before I would have felt confident in a PhD program. It sounds like you are possibly in a different place than I was pre-grad school, but I guess this post is to say that (1) the PhD or DSW could be an option later if you want to return to school [or an institute, of course...New York has a ton] and (2) there is decent work to be had as a social worker.
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I did think about that. I am finishing my MA in psychology this year and am sortof at a crossroads now...I have gotten that foundation you mentioned but am not sure which way to go from here. Is it common for MSWers to go for their DSW/PhD right after? I thought there was some requirement to work in the field for a few years then apply. There is decent work but I can't help but think of when I do graduate with the MSW (eventually the LCSW) how will I be financially. I heard that NYU graduates have jobs waiting for them in the social work that can amount to about 50k entry level so I guess that is encouraging (if clinical social workers ever see that kind of money??). I am trying to think of the overall picture here, I understand the biases with each degree but I guess in the end I don't want to regret missing the opportunity of the PsyD if it would amount to better qualifications/experiences as a future therapist. Then again, I have some facutly here that have said it's not so much the degree but the person that determines how successful they will be as a therapist...
 
Well, I certainly agree with what some of your faculty say. I know of some really successful (and clinically-gifted) social workers who make a great living in private practice and also teach. That being said, getting a PsyD would perhaps put you on this track more easily. I don't know enough about that degree to say! Obviously, it's a combination of degree (credentials, contacts, etc.) and drive, luck, innate talent, creativity and all that.

Your chosen location when you graduate would be something to consider, as well. Do you know where people from FIT end up after graduation?

I'm sure you're anxious about the decision, and I hope it won't sound dismissive when I say that especialy if you know what you want to do when you graduate, you probably won't go wrong with either degree! Of course this is a big decision, but you are deciding between two good choices, any you'll probably be able to compensate for any deficits one has that another does not.

(Oh, and to answer your question - yes, usually you have to work as an MSW for two years before applying to SW PhD or DSW programs, but not always. If you want a faculty position later, I know that departments value those two years of work experience when hiring.)
 
The thing about the social work PhD is that it's typically not a clinical degree- even NYU's PhD curriculum has no clinical practice component. Like it or don't, the current terminal clinical degree for social workers is the MSW. The PhD (I don't think anyone offers the DSW any longer) allows for access to research funding, as well as full-time faculty positions. However many BSW/BSSW and MSW programs utilize MSWs and/or LCSWs as adjunct faculty members.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Clinical jobs are often not posted on a site like CareerBuilders, so it is tough to judge. I think it is one of those industries that thrives on word of mouth referrals.

I'd be really hesitant to accept a job at a place that does that doesn't differentiate, because it implies they don't see the different values each degree brings to the table. It sounds small, but the small things matter.

-t
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Some are, some aren't. Locally, many are. Personally, I've landed several clinical jobs through Careerbuilder in the past, including a hospital position. And I agree with you -- I generally don't look too closely at a posting when I see that they are looking for a generic mental health professional. That isn't really consistent with my professional identity.
 
I think you're right about the MSW being a terminal, clinical degree. Just for the record, some SW schools, though, DO offer more clinical training at the doctoral level (like Smith). And University of Pennsylvania just reinvented their DSW program: http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/programs/dsw/index.html
 
QPublic said:
Some are, some aren't. Locally, many are. Personally, I've landed several clinical jobs through Careerbuilder in the past, including a hospital position. And I agree with you -- I generally don't look too closely at a posting when I see that they are looking for a generic mental health professional. That isn't really consistent with my professional identity.
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Interesting. I think it is partly my biz background bias....every job I've ever taken came through referrals/networking (which is why the 'match process freaks me out!)

Whenever I looked on a place like monster, it seemed like very generic and entry level type jobs. I was in a 'niche' market, so that might have been part of it, but it worries me that when I do searches on a site like that, and most of what pops up is: "req. MSW/PhD/PsyD"....which are not equal degrees.

--

As for the topic.....I think LCSWs have a lot of opportunities for work, and you can do clinical and non-clinical work, but I think there is a lower salary ceiling at the MS level...compared to the doctoral level.

-t
 
h2oLillies said:
Hi All,
I posted this in the other forum but thought I might as well post it here too.

I am a new member and have learned a lot by reading all your comments. I am currently finishing my MA in general psychology at Stony Brook University. Although, I took doctoral level courses (there is no official MA degree offered), clinical courses like assessment/intervention were not an option to those not in the PhD program (I totally understand the reasoning for this). My interests are in psychopathology and parent-child relationships; I wish to become a child and family clinician and teach in the future.

Based on my interests and what I have heard/read from others, PsyDs and MSWs seem to be the best route. I have a pretty solid research background since I've been an RA for 4yrs and a GA for 2 but through my Master's experience I learned that I am more clinically oriented (that was the main reason I did the MA beforehand was to decide my interests and to get more teaching experience as a GA)

I applied to a few Psy D. programs and several clinical social work programs. I was accepted into Florida Institute of Technology's Psy D. program as well as NYU and Columbia's social work programs. I wanted to ask you all about your opinions on NYU's MSW program and Florida Tech if you have any (I seem to read much on Nova but not Florida Tech). I chose NYU from the rest of the MSWs because of their clinical focus, think this is a good fit?

I would also appreciate advice about pursuing a Psy D. versus a clinical MSW degree (LCSW with licensure) with my interests. For those of you with a Psy D, what made you choose the Psy D over other degrees such as the MSW? I know the biases and controversies behind each of these degrees but now that I have to choose between them, it is especially difficult.
Since you have graduated have you found any difficulty in finding jobs? Now that I have found my interests and have been accepted to these programs I am trying to weigh the pros and cons. It would be difficult for me to move so far away from home and attend Florida for the next 4-5yrs but I also don't want to face issues finding a job to get my supervision hours for the LCSW.

Any suggestions/comments would be great!!! (sorry for the lengthy post :) )
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Hey,

OK, I may be misreading this but I get the feeling that your quandery is due to really wanting to pursue the PsyD but also wanting to stay in NYC...if that is the case, then please consider waiting another year, enhancing your application, and applying only to PsyD programs in The City or close to it, eg CT or NJ.
Alternatively, you may consider also applying to PsyD or PhD programs in other major metropolitan areas like Philly, DC, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, and of course, NYC's Sixth Borough...Miami!!!:)
I gather that your clinical interests are in child psychopathology and parent-child/family relationships; I think that the best venue to pursue those interests in the non-medical mental health fields is in psychology: clinical, counseling, OR school psychology.
Why?
Because psychology, just like social work, will train you to be a good therapist but it will also train you to be an exceptional diagnostician of childhood disorders such as AD, ADHD, LD, etc.
If you want to be able to treat AND assess complex pediatric psychiatric conditions then becoming a Child and Adolescent PsyD/PhD or a school psychologist IMO is the way to go.
Additionally, with your interest in academia and with your experience in research you may consider a PhD program.
Here, I'll speak from my experience: NSU (aka Nova) is an excellent school with both very good PsyD and PhD programs (as an aside, a friend of mine that went there did his internship at Harvard and is currently doing his post-doc at Yale...enough said!)
I could see you waiting a year, going into NSU's PhD program with a concentration in pediatric psych and then doing your internship at UM/JMH; BTW, there you could also do a volunteer rotation at the reknowned Family Studies Institute and maybe even line up a post-doc at it.
If you have any questions, hit me up...all the best...:luck:
 
phrenologist said:
I think you're right about the MSW being a terminal, clinical degree. Just for the record, some SW schools, though, DO offer more clinical training at the doctoral level (like Smith). And University of Pennsylvania just reinvented their DSW program: http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/programs/dsw/index.html
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Thanks for that info! the UPenn program looks excellent! And I like the fact that it is 3yrs long and take into account that you have an MSW/work experience so it doesn't take 5yrs. It's something to consider, I guess part of me still says well you got into a PsyD already why bother with a longer route of MSW/DSW when I will have an MA under my belt this spring....sigh....
 
sasevan said:
Hey,

OK, I may be misreading this but I get the feeling that your quandery is due to really wanting to pursue the PsyD but also wanting to stay in NYC...if that is the case, then please consider waiting another year, enhancing your application, and applying only to PsyD programs in The City or close to it, eg CT or NJ.
Alternatively, you may consider also applying to PsyD or PhD programs in other major metropolitan areas like Philly, DC, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, and of course, NYC's Sixth Borough...Miami!!!:)
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Good points. I'm concerned that if I wait another year I will be in the same boat. Although my credentials were pretty strong, I didn't do well on the GREs (hence why I think I was rejected in NY). Part of me does think that if I had gotten in anywhere in NY I wouldn't have thought twice about another degree. But then again I have my advisor and some other PhD grad students in my lab pushing me away from the PsyD (for reasons that have been posted on here repeatedly) and steering me towards the MSW. Clock is ticking, April 15th will be here in no time and this decision is really a time sucker...
sasevan said:
I gather that your clinical interests are in child psychopathology and parent-child/family relationships; I think that the best venue to pursue those interests in the non-medical mental health fields is in psychology: clinical, counseling, OR school psychology.
Why?
Because psychology, just like social work, will train you to be a good therapist but it will also train you to be an exceptional diagnostician of childhood disorders such as AD, ADHD, LD, etc.
If you want to be able to treat AND assess complex pediatric psychiatric conditions then becoming a Child and Adolescent PsyD/PhD or a school psychologist IMO is the way to go.
Additionally, with your interest in academia and with your experience in research you may consider a PhD program.
Here, I'll speak from my experience: NSU (aka Nova) is an excellent school with both very good PsyD and PhD programs (as an aside, a friend of mine that went there did his internship at Harvard and is currently doing his post-doc at Yale...enough said!)
I could see you waiting a year, going into NSU's PhD program with a concentration in pediatric psych and then doing your internship at UM/JMH; BTW, there you could also do a volunteer rotation at the reknowned Family Studies Institute and maybe even line up a post-doc at it.
If you have any questions, hit me up...all the best...:luck:
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I am not considering the PhD because with my research background in undergrad and now MA made me realize that is not my interest, I am clinically oriented. So as far as career choices, I want to be a clinician and teach p/t without the emphasis in research (I had that in my MA although not to the extent as a PhD, my school is still highly research oriented).
 
h2oLillies said:
Good points. I'm concerned that if I wait another year I will be in the same boat. Although my credentials were pretty strong, I didn't do well on the GREs (hence why I think I was rejected in NY). Part of me does think that if I had gotten in anywhere in NY I wouldn't have thought twice about another degree. But then again I have my advisor and some other PhD grad students in my lab pushing me away from the PsyD (for reasons that have been posted on here repeatedly) and steering me towards the MSW. Clock is ticking, April 15th will be here in no time and this decision is really a time sucker...
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Geez...tax time AND career decision time...Yikes:scared: :D

It doesn't surprise me that your AA and some of the PhD students at you're research focused academic institution are against you going for the PsyD.
IMO this is most likely due to these individuals being stuck in the Boulder model and rejecting any alternative ones, i.e., Vail, professional schools, RxP, i.e., whatever doesn't conform to their own degree.
Unfortunately, their recalcitrant attitude gives rise to internecine battles but they've already lost the war because psychology is not going to abandon the PsyD. Nor should it; there is no evidence that on average PhDs are more successful clinicians than PsyDs, eg a friend of mine with a PsyD from a professional school is at Duke's main hospital. Moreover, the current number of PhD students no longer exceeds that of PsyD ones and in the future the former will likely be exceeded by the latter, resulting in the PsyD being the more typical degree for a psychologist clinician (with the PhD still remaining the standard for a psychologist academician).
BTW, these skirmishes are not limited to psychology; there are internecine battles in medicine between some MDs and DOs, between the two doctoral level mental health disciplines, ie psychiatry and psychology, etc.
In any case, the MSW/DSW may well be the best fit for you but I wanted to make the point that getting a PsyD (even from a professional school and despite the nay sayers) is a good option and that if you want to assess/treat neuro-cognitive disorders in children like Autism, ADHD, Learning Disorders then it may well be what you're looking for.
Best regards.:)
P.S. Have you looked into school psych programs (in FL they award the EdS-Education Specialist-a degree between a masters and a doctorate)?
P.P.S. I guess if I were in your shoes I'd ask myself if there is anything that I'd really like to do professionally that I could only do as a PsyD (or EdS); if the answer is "yes" then I'd ask myself if I'd be willing to do what it takes to get that degree.
 
sasevan said:
It doesn't surprise me that your AA and some of the PhD students at you're research focused academic institution are against you going for the PsyD.
IMO this is most likely due to these individuals being stuck in the Boulder model and rejecting any alternative ones, i.e., Vail, professional schools, RxP, i.e., whatever doesn't conform to their own degree.
Click to expand...

If her labmates and advisor were "stuck in the Boulder model," why would they be advising her to pursue an MSW, which is even further from the Boulder model than the Psy.D? I think there are other issues here-- the incremental value of the Psy.D. degree over the MSW is not worth the massive debt she'd incur. This would be a different conversation if she had been accepted to, say, Rutgers, an excellent training program with some financial aid. She's contrasting a not very good Psy.D. program with questionable training and no financial aid and far away from where she wants to be to two of the very top MSW programs out there, which probably have better training, take only two years, and are where she wants to be.

I do agree that the school psych Ph.D. might be a decent back-up, but is it worth waiting another year? It depends on your goals. I think that sasevan's "PPS" advice is good.
 
psychanon said:
If her labmates and advisor were "stuck in the Boulder model," why would they be advising her to pursue an MSW, which is even further from the Boulder model than the Psy.D? I think there are other issues here-- the incremental value of the Psy.D. degree over the MSW is not worth the massive debt she'd incur. This would be a different conversation if she had been accepted to, say, Rutgers, an excellent training program with some financial aid. She's contrasting a not very good Psy.D. program with questionable training and no financial aid and far away from where she wants to be to two of the very top MSW programs out there, which probably have better training, take only two years, and are where she wants to be.

I do agree that the school psych Ph.D. might be a decent back-up, but is it worth waiting another year? It depends on your goals. I think that sasevan's "PPS" advice is good.
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You summed up my dilemma perfectly. You're right about my advisor and labmates they figured I might as well go in the field at this point since I'm finishing up my MA, and to start getting trained. That DSW at UPenn does seem like something I may consider, although I don't want to have to wait 2-3yrs after my MSW but I guess that is the way SW works. I am not so sure it is a "not so good" PsyD program. What makes a PsyD program not so good? I've read their curriculum and pre-practicum syllabus, it seems like they covered all the bases?? I believe I will be offered a fellowship the first year (not much, about 8k) but I guess it's something...
 
h2oLillies said:
You summed up my dilemma perfectly. You're right about my advisor and labmates they figured I might as well go in the field at this point since I'm finishing up my MA, and to start getting trained. That DSW at UPenn does seem like something I may consider, although I don't want to have to wait 2-3yrs after my MSW but I guess that is the way SW works. I am not so sure it is a "not so good" PsyD program. What makes a PsyD program not so good? I've read their curriculum and pre-practicum syllabus, it seems like they covered all the bases?? I believe I will be offered a fellowship the first year (not much, about 8k) but I guess it's something...
Click to expand...

I don't know much about FIT, to be honest. I was basing my "not so good" statement on what others in this thread have said. I think anyone can make up a nice syllabus with all the right topics (indeed, APA mandates it), but I don't know that it always translates into effective teaching and supervision. Those are harder to measure. So, as inaccurate as hearsay about reputation and rankings may be, it may be the best metric we have to assess clinically-oriented programs. My main point was that FIT is certainly not considered a top doctoral program (it may not be as bad as professional schools, but it's no Rutgers). On the other hand, Columbia and NYU are considered top MSW programs. Some seem to think that even lower ranked doctoral programs are superior to the top ranked MSW programs, but I don't buy that. Top MSW programs are going to attract the very top faculty in the field. Will mid-rank PsyD programs do the same? I don't have any data on this, but my guess is no.
 
psychanon said:
If her labmates and advisor were "stuck in the Boulder model," why would they be advising her to pursue an MSW, which is even further from the Boulder model than the Psy.D? I think there are other issues here-- the incremental value of the Psy.D. degree over the MSW is not worth the massive debt she'd incur.
Click to expand...

Hmmm,
Well, you may be right or maybe I'm right...we're both speculating as to the motivation of the advisor/labmates...so, its just speculation...or maybe...we're both right and it's as Freud asserted (human behavior is multi determined) and the advisor/labmates are both stuck in the Boulder model and devalue any psych program that deviates from their own training AND are also considering the incremental value vs massive debt issues.
Actually, I really don't think its an either/or situation...but, like I said, its just speculation.
However, please consider that being stuck may play a part in their perspective.
BTW, their suggesting that she follow the MSW does not contradict my point as what I'm indicating is that those stuck in the Boulder model resent psychology's openess to the Vail model, etc.
They are threatened by the changes in psychology and want to stem the rising tide of the Vail model, prof schools, etc
If they could, they would turn the clock back and anyone wanting to be a psychologist would have to follow the Boulder model.
They can't turn the clock back on psychology but they can certainly try to persuade an individual interested in becoming a psychologist to follow the scientist-practitioner model.
Once its clear that that individual is not going to go for a PhD then the choice is whether to support the interest in the PsyD (which would result in their indirect support for what they likely consider the bastardization of the discipline) or try to steer them to another discipline like social work, etc
Anyway, just something to consider.:idea:
 
Jon Snow said:
They are winning, as Sasevan says because they **** like bunnies. . . and to all those out there supporting these programs. . .**** you.
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WOW!:(
You are in violation of SDN rules of discourse and I have reported this.
Good luck to you. I'm not being sarcastic. I really hope that you overcome your rage. Again good luck.
P.S. Know that I will no longer engage you in any kind of discussion until you apologize to this forum for the comment above and the previous one in which you labelled FIT, NSU (aka Nova), and professional schools in general, as "crap." One thing is to express our opinion, another is to do so in a rude manner. The former leads to debate, the latter to the end of civil discourse.
 
How do you send a PM? Not to sound like an idiot but i am slightly new to this forum and I wanted to ask Jon Snow a question without having the whole thread read it. How does one do this?
 
:) I think I figured out how to PM. Nevermind.
 
Jon Snow said:
. . . just a small point, but FIT is every bit the professional school as any argosy or alliant program. . .

This is sort of accurate, though it is important to note that we aren't necessarily wrong. Psychology has been hijacked by DeVry-like PsyD businesses. We are failing in combating it. It looks like these low quality programs will win out in the end, at least in some ways. But, I'm never going to rec one as a good option. I will, on the otherhand, rec programs like Rutgers. I think that most Boulder people would as well. What does this tell you? To me, this means that there are other more pressing issues than Boulder vs Vail at play. We resent the hostile takeover by these businesses. They are winning, as Sasevan says because they **** like bunnies. . . and to all those out there supporting these programs. . .**** you.
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Jon,

I think there is a difference between 'sharing your opinion', and being rude. You definitely crossed that line.

Jon Snow said:
Lol. . .typical, it isn't rage; it's just how us notherners talk. ;) Haven't you seen the departed?

I'm not trying to censor anyone, unlike you, because, in my opinion, with more information available about schools like FIT and Nova (professional schools) out, the worse they look. "Crap" is a rather tame descriptor to tattle for. . .especially given that it is accurate. . .
Click to expand...

I think if the rest of the people on here can refrain from senseless cursing, you'd be able to do the same. My mother always said that if people need to curse to make their point, they don't have the ability nor want to come across as informed. I know you are a bright guy, but don't pass off your langauge for 'northern' talk....because some of us northerners are more than capable of conversing without cursing.

-t
 
I'm more Northern than any of you so I win. :D There are lots of times I've wanted to curse on here but I make a conscious effort to find other words. It's not that hard...
 
so umm hmm what's the verdict? :)
(I secretly want ppl to tell me which program to go for but in reality I know this is not exactly possible...sigh...)
 
h2oLillies said:
so umm hmm what's the verdict? :)
(I secretly want ppl to tell me which program to go for but in reality I know this is not exactly possible...sigh...)
Click to expand...

Ha! That's the most honest, straight forward comment I've read in a long time! Wouldn't it be nice if we could just have someone tell us what to do? This is such a scary process and a life-altering decision that all of the input and advice helps, but still leaves us stuck with the hard part.

I think the bottom line was that you should do what's best for you...

I bet that's NOT what you want to hear! :rolleyes:
 
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